Tell me about the father of the Turks. Was he a great man?

It depends on who you ask. He carved a modern secular nation out of the ruins of the Ottoman Empire, so I like him for that.

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>>2852275

>>2852317
"secular"

>>2852275
He was seriously too good for the Turks. They don't fucking deserve his legacy.

>>2852477
>Turks don't deserve the legacy pf a man who beheaded people for wearing hats he didn't like

Wow, that's harsh

>>2852503
*the legacy of a man

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>>2852275
he was the greatest nation builder of 20th century and one of the greatest leaders of all times. the turkish nationalist movement under him influenced many nations throughout europe, middle-east, north africa and south-asia
a thoroughly top bloke. don't mind the greek/armenian/kurd shitposting about him, they are just butthurt about losing

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no. this man was:

One of the most successful and revered men in history and oddly progressive for his time, much more so than most European heads of state.

>>2852601
>Ataturk
>progressive

He was less liberal than the Ottoman Empire was for most of its history, and this says something

>>2852621
It says you have one of the most flaming hurts of all time.

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>This man's legacy is being destroyed by wannabe sultan Erdoroach

>>2852275
It annoys me how much praised he is in the west when he is responsible for finishing the genocides the three pashas started

>>2854022
How so? Are you one of those retards who think that Erdogan will turn Turkey into an Islamic theocracy?

>>2852621
>He was less liberal than the Ottoman Empire was for most of its history
What the heck, man ? Kemal was a secularist modernist who wanted every Turk to LARP as an European. He hated Islam and islamic traditions.

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>>2852275
He saw the disease for what it was. A shame modern Turkey spits on his memory.

>>2852621
Nigga he gave women voting rights before any european country did that is pretty progressive for its time.

>>2852275
He was the greatest of men.

>>2852275
A fucking roach
14/88 shadilay DEUS VULT

>>2852601
>progressive
accidentally bringing about terrorism you mean?

Ataturk banned 'gods language' (Arabic) and disbanded the Caliphate. Since then we've had islamic terrorism, wahabbism, and the accompanying destabilisation.
I'm not pro-muslim, but this guy inadvertently started the background for a new religious war, as well as a shit ton of strife within the islamic faith.

>>2852549
>greatest nation builder of 20th century and one of the greatest leaders of all times
t. erdogan

He was barely above average. He did a modern day Germany and exploited the other members of his union (the Caliphate) to fund the formation and hegemony of Turkey.

Still he was one of the better turks, which is saying something...

>>2855949
reddit

>>2856139
roach

Any recommendations for good books on the turkish war of independence/early turkish republic history?

he's a crypto Jude and only made T*rkroaches better at hiding their power level.

>>2854091
I agree with him on letting religion play no part in government but that literally sounds like something a fedora would say. I'm not calling him one but out of context that quote can be easily misinterpreted

>>2857987

Not being a superstitious cuck is a good thing.

>>2857987
Kemalists are the ultimate fedoras. Turkey under Ataturk is what a country controlled by people who regularly browse r/atheism would look like.

>>2852317
>secular
Not anymore
Bravo Erdogan

>>2858181
I bet you think that Saudi Arabia is an Islamic theocracy too

>>2852275
Too good for the roaches, actually I think he wasn't even a roach himself. A guy like him couldn't be a T*rk. As we see today, it's just the nature of the T*rk to be a backwards savage that has no means of integrating into modern day society.

>>2856038
Nigga the reason allah brought islam to the arabs was because they were and still are degenerates not because they were holy people or some shit like that.

>>2858205
So is the nature of whites to be black cock gobbling cucks because many of them are that now.

>>2856038
>blaming him for arabs chimping out
That's like blaming the west for islamic terrorism due to borders being drawn.

>>2859050
>blaming the west for islamic terrorism due to borders being drawn.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing this

>>2859050
No, modern terrorism is pretty much all down to wahhabism.

Prior to Ataturk disbanding the Caliphate/Ottoman Empire, the Caliphate was a huge source of pride to the muslim world.
He disbanded it and that pissed off a lot of muslims.
Some of those muslims formed the Muslim Brotherhood, which is without a doubt more dangerous than ISIS.
Anyway, the Muslim Brotherhood, ISIS, AQ, and others all want to bring the Caliphate back.
You can trace modern terrorism back further, but ideologically, Ataturk dropping the Ottoman empire/Caliphate and creating Turkey is the pivotal cause of the problems we face today. (caveat; other reasons have compounded on this and added many more grievances, but this is the fundamental basis of modern jihad)

Ataturk did something good by our metric by becoming more secular, but it was seen as something abhorrent by the muslims (his peoples) metric.
This was compounded by the fact he banned Arabic, which is 'gods language', and he just marginalised a large group of people.

>>2859038
Thats irrelevant to my point. Islamic terrorism isn't just carried out by Arabs either, which is relevant in debunking your point...
Though it's interesting that Arabs have been singled out by those without and within islam as being unusually zealous, and thus over-represented in terrorism.

>>2859407
Wrong.
There is a lot wrong when you note that those borders were drawn by Turkey before they were re-drawn by European powers.
TE Lawrence was so successful in the Arabian Campaign by unifying arabic tribes to fight the much more hated Ottomans.
Go figure.
And the problems in the middle east are tribalism. They were still nations before Europe arrived, and they were still nations after. The borders are irrelevant, they would kill each other regardless.

And thinking what you think is a great barometer for weeding out how much someone knows about the middle east and history.

>>2852438
It's hard to believe that Turkey was secular once

>>2860561
Turkey was always secular, even during the Ottoman period, which is why we, Wahhabis, revolted

>>2860572
>which is why we, Wahhabis, revolted
So you're a wahhabi, from where?

And how is Lawrence of Arabia viewed by Wahhabis? I mean he helped you organise and fight off the Ottomans...

As a wahhabi, do you want to see the Caliphate reinstated? If so, what country would you prefer leading it?

>>2856038

This post is an absolute mess.

>Since then we've had islamic terrorism, wahabbism, and the accompanying destabilisation.

Wahhabism has existed since the early 19th Century, taking route in the Najd under Saudi sponsorship. The Saudis frequently fought the Ottoman Caliphate for being too liberal and there's absolutely nothing Ataturk could have done to stifle them outside Turkey come the 1920s.

The notion that Ataturk is somehow responsible for the rise of Wahhabism or Islamic terrorism is utterly ridiculous. He did everything in his power to crush Islamic extremism in his own country. At most he could have kept a liberal puppet Caliphate going but the Arabs made it abundantly clear how little they cared for the Ottoman Caliphate when they rose up against it in alliance with the unbelievers during the Arab Revolt.

>I'm not pro-muslim, but this guy inadvertently started the background for a new religious war, as well as a shit ton of strife within the islamic faith.

Islamist terrorism did not grow out of Turkey. Ataturk did pretty much everything he could to stifle Islamism in Turkey. If you're going to hold anyone responsible for the rise of Islamic extremism in the Middle East, blame the British: for partitioning the Ottoman Empire (which kept a lid on all this shit), supporting the most extremist Arab elements, and creating permanent butthurt in the form of Israel (via the Balfour Declaration).

>He was barely above average. He did a modern day Germany and exploited the other members of his union (the Caliphate) to fund the formation and hegemony of Turkey.

What in the world are you talking about? He abolished the Caliphate and had no financial stake in the lands lost by the Ottoman Empire save for a temporary share of oil money from Northern Iraq.

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>>2860507

You're overlooking two very basic facts. When Ataturk launched his campaign to liberate the Turkish people in 1919, the Ottoman Empire and the Ottoman Caliphate had completely and utterly failed.

The Empire had been reduced to a pathetic rump state, with the majority of Turks under foreign rule. The Caliphate had been betrayed by its non-Turkish Muslim subjects, who had risen up against it in alliance with the British and French, despite a call to jihad during WWI.

The Ottoman Sultan was a puppet of the occupying forces and even ordered the arrest of Ataturk and the destruction of his nationalist forces when he took up arms against the Greek and French invaders.

How would perpetuating these two institutions have helped Turkey? He couldn't take the risk of the sultan launching a coup and running the country with an iron fist like Abdulhamid II. And a liberal Caliph without control over Mecca would have hardly been taken seriously within the Muslim world (not that the Caliph had been taken seriously for the preceding century).

He did what was in the best interests of the Turks by abolishing both institutions. And his language reforms (which you so revile) led to skyrocketing literacy in Turkey because they finally had a script that worked with the natural features of the language.

The fact that the Arabs turned the Middle East into a clusterfuck is hardly his fault. After all, they had already turned their backs on Istanbul with the aid of T.E. Lawrence. Why fuck his own country over in order to help those ungrateful bastards?

>>2860596
Lawrence of Arabia didn't work with the wahhabis. He worked with the Hashemites (local rulers of Mecca/the hijaz). After the war was over, the Saudis (Wahhabis) attacked the Hashemites and pushed them out of the Arabian peninsula. Pretty sure Lawrence hated Wahhabis even more than he hated normal Arabs.

>>2860596
>from where?

Russia

>do you want to see the Caliphate reinstated?

Of course, just like any other Muslim.

>what country would you prefer leading it?

I believe that Islam is an internationalist religion, which is why I don't want any particular nation to lead the caliphate

ITT people supporting a gay albanian born jew

>>2860649
>the notion that Ataturk is somehow responsible for the rise of Wahhabism or Islamic terrorism is utterly ridiculous.
I'm not saying he's responsible. His role is seen by the rest of the muslim world as justification for jihad though, through the propaganda and scheming of the Muslim Brotherhood who pushed that.
Ataturk seemed to me to have played a Chamberlain like role, ie good intentions in the face of aggression, but those good intentions blow up in his face.

I don't know tons about his rule, but from what you say it seems he had no choice anyway, making it a bit more tragic than I had previously known it to be, but I'm not saying he's the reason terrorism happened. Just that his actions gave rise directly to the Muslim Brotherhood, who are responsible.

>Islamist terrorism did not grow out of Turkey.
Didn't say it did.
I said his actions set the stage for a new religious war (ie giving the wahhabis justification) which has gone on to see sectarian violence within the islamic faith.

>blame the British
The Ottomans didn't keep much of a lid on that shit, and the notion the British are to blame because of borders is just disingenous (not saying you are).
KSA is responsible for the Islamic extremism (as always), and then the USA for aiding KSA and thus enabling them.

>He abolished the Caliphate and had no financial stake in the lands lost by the Ottoman Empire save for a temporary share of oil money from Northern Iraq.
I'd read it was more than that. If thats wrong, so be it, please direct me to good books to read. But you even point out he still got a share of oil money, so it sounds like it has some truth to it.

>>2860795
>How would perpetuating these two institutions have helped Turkey?
I'm not saying they would have helped. I'm saying the wahhabi's/jihadists see that as a central justification for their jihad/terrorism.

Again, maybe my reading materials were rather biased against him, so if you have any good recommendations, please share.

>>2860824
I meant more that he helped Arabs, not wahabbis specifically. The way I worded that was poor, was in a rush when posting that.

>>2860838
Thanks for the answers.

>internationalist
There is always going to be one country who rules, and others who vie for control, no?
As I understand the history of Islam, that's how its always been; between Persia and Egypt, and then KSA and Turkey and Iran etc.

>>2858199
It's a dual Islamic monarchy and theocracy.

>>2852275
I used to think he was overrated, but now I have seen the level of idiocy he faced.

>>2860572
Kill yourself

>>2862618
>There is always going to be one country who rules, and others who vie for control, no?

Look at ISIS, it is a caliphate which is. not led by any particular nation, although some of its opponents try to push the meme that its leadership consists exclusively of Iraqis

>>2862677
So you're pro-ISIS?

As I understood ISIS, KSA and Turkey are both funding them in an attempt to 'gain control' of them.
Which does seem foolish, as ISIS will just try to topple them too...

How do you view Russia? Do you want to see it go Muslim, and if so would you support this being done violently?

And a different question - how do you view the European nations, especially the UK and France?

Hear from him https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQPtkbAiRrU

>>2862688
>>2862688
>As I understood ISIS, KSA and Turkey are both funding them in an attempt to 'gain control' of them.

They have dropped this strategy long ago after ISIS has carried out several terrorist attacks in this country

>How do you view Russia?

Extremely negatively. I believe it to be the number one enemy of Islam at the moment. I think Al-Qaeda in general and Osama bin Laden in particular were too focused on the US, there are countries that have commited far worse crimes against Muslims, and Russia is one of them. I hope that Russian intervention in Syria would make Russia replace the US as Al-Qaeda's primary target.

>Do you want to see it go Muslim, and if so would you support this being done violently?

My answer to both of these questions is, of course, yes

>And a different question - how do you view the European nations, especially the UK and France?

I think ISIS should stop carrying out terrorist attacks in these countries once they stop intervening in the Middle East. They can even kick all the Muslim refugees out, I don't care. After all, it is a sin for a Muslim to reside in a non-Muslim country unless he is proselytizing or being forced to stay in it.

>>2856148
thats what he said

>>2862641
best post ITT

A crypto-jew (Dönmeh) that paved the way for a Jewish-controlled Turkey

>>2862847
Can you backward fucks just fuck the fuck off this planet?

>>2852275
The guy commited genocide, fuck him

>>2856038
this is some serious butthurt.

>>2862938
shut the fuck up roach
go crawl under the fridge or something

>>2858205
It's not that there aren't modern, civilized Turks - after all, about half of Turkey votes against Erdogan - it's that the backwards religious hicks in Turkey, as in most places, usually have more kids than the more secular people. And as Erdoshit continues his policies, I think it's likely that many modern-thinking Turks will try to move out of the country, which will further tilt the numbers.

>>2852275
The last great Turk before they devolved into a race of cockroaches. The irony is that Turks worship him while simultaneously shitting on his corpse.

>>2865802
I'm talking as a Kemalist Turk, we will stand our ground and resist and fight. Erdoshit is a mortal and will die, but we will be here and and every step of him diminishing this countries institutions a living hell.

As for reading material, read Andrew Mango and Lord Curzon.

I sincerely recommend "Great Speech" of Atatürk if anyone wants to leran about the war of independence of Turkey.

And as for that Wahabi piece of shit, alas we didn't kill you enough of your kind in 19th century, you are still lingering in this world.

>>2852275
Secularists and liberals are never great

>turkish nationalist
>looks 50% slav
what did he mean by this?

>>2866242
So were all the ottoman elite.

>>2865791
Fuck off from this thread faggot.

>>2866242
it means you don't know anything about Anatolia.
>>2866253
He wasn't an elite. He was an orphan from Thessaloniki who wanted to be a soldier.

>>2855701
Sweden, the UK, Germany, Poland, etc. had voting rights for women before Atatürk's Turkey

>>2857987
Well, Ataturk was an atheist/agnostic.

>>2866284
fuck off from europe roach

>>2852275
A TurkoJew who only won against the Greeks because their retarded king wanted to invade inner Anatolia where there were barely any Greeks there.

He helped orchestrate the armenian genocide

>>2867187
Are you a retard? He was merely a colonel in 1915 with no power, no fame, no name.

How can you be this much of a retarded in here?

>>2867253
The armenian, assyrian and greek genocides ended in 1923, 1920 and 1922 respectively
Kemal came to power in 1919, thats 4 years of genocide

>>2867275
oh, now there are assyrian and greek genocides also.

so he came to power in 1919, while he was fighting against greek army and İstanbul government, but he was also keeping Istanbul governments policies while he was trying to gather all the manpower he could to fight in western front?

and you think a genocide took 8 years, which anatolia was invaded for 6 of it and invasion forces did nothing to stop these genocides.

Nice logic and education you got there.

>>2867289
>genocide cant happen if you are at war at the same time
I guess the holocaust didnt happen either

>"invasion forces" did nothing to stop these genocides
Thats because they did not control the area where it was taking place, obviously

>>2867309
>I guess the holocaust didnt happen either
1) Turks didn't have the manpower to that for 8 years. the country was at war for 12 years, the army even couldn't find men to fight.

2) if you think Anatolia at the time had the state power and logistical power like Nazis to systematically genocide minorities, you are sadly mistaken.

>Thats because they did not control the area where it was taking place, obviously
look at this one>>2860795

so Turks genocided minorities only central anatolia, for 8 years and still didn't kill all of them with "great"state power.

Tell me this, why the successors of these "genocided" minorities won't go to international criminal court? Turkey is a member, it can be tried. Why all of these years they just chimp out "we got genocided!!" but wouldn't seek legal means to end this debate?

>>2867289
>oh, now there are assyrian and greek genocides also.
This is news to you?

>>2867332
>Tell me this, why the successors of these "genocided" minorities won't go to international criminal court? Turkey is a member, it can be tried.
Turkey is literally not a member of the ICC

The only good turk to ever live

>>2860507
The only thing I am getting from you is that islam is a subhuman religion that would rather tear the world apart than change

>>2867353
of course not, I know all of that shitty accusations. he was goalposting.
>>2867364
I checked again, made a mistake. the regulations for ICC is in the criminal law and Constitution in Turkey. It wasn't signed and ratified however.
But, apart from seldom situations, Turkey is not out of ICC's jurisdiction as far as I can see.

>>2867410
* out of ICC's jurisdiction if only UNSC says otherwise. I wrote it wrong.

>>2860507
>If you form an argument against us we'll blow ourselves up

Arabic genocide when

>>2867461
problem is not arabs, it is wahhabi islam, hence saudis.

>>2852275
Genocidal warlord who should've done Turks a favor and not save Turkey from being split up among its mother nations.

>>2867468
arabs are Germany personified as a people, everywhere they go they shit it up, they're like a more aggressive roma people, a technocratic world would genocide the fuck out of faulty genes like that

>>2867332
>the army even couldn't find men
They didnt have a SS, it was the army who did it

>Turkey was not as capable of commiting genocide as the Nazis
They didnt need to, they had less people to kill, a nice desert (no need for gas chambers) and all of their victims were largely confined to certain regions instead of the entire country

>Turks genocided minorities only central anatolia, for 8 years
The treaty of Sevres was never put into force so the frontline never looked like that and definitely not for 8 whole years

>>2868160
>They didnt have a SS, it was the army who did it
what army? the one that allied forces disbanded after ww1? the army that took two years to form in 1921 with heavy threats? yeah sure.
>They didnt need to, they had less people to kill
how many less? the count was going up and up in the last 50 years. are we counting assyrians and greeks also?
>The treaty of Sevres
Sevres wasn't in action de jure, it was in action de facto. those places were invaded, greeks even came to near Ankara, expending their invasion to make sevres de jure.

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>>2852582


But that's not Mete Han.

>>2852275
The greatest westboo ever.

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>>2868232
>what army?
The army which fought the "independence" war

>how many less?
800k-1.5m armenians, 150k-300k assyrians and 450k-750k greeks for a total 1.4m-2.55m
The germans killed more than twice that many jews alone

>Sevres wasnt de jure but was de facto
It was the opposite
The Ottoman empire signed the treaty thereby making it de jure but it was never implemented de facto because of Kemals rebellion and in the treaty Greece wasnt going to get even close to Ankara like you can see on the map

>>2868444
>The army which fought the "independence" war
that army was formed in 1921. it didn't exist for 3 years(1918-1921), please read the post before answering.
>800k-1.5m armenians, 150k-300k assyrians and 450k-750k greeks for a total 1.4m-2.55m
>800k-1.5m
>150k-300k
>450k-750k
amazing accuracy you have there. first number is the half of the second. did germans kill 3-6 millions jews also?
>It was the opposite
signing means nothing, it had to be ratified. British disbanded the İstanbul assembly in March 1920, one month later the assembly was gathered in Ankara. Greek army marched towards Ankara to push the Assembly to ratify the Sevres. All of the places designated to be invaded in Sevres were already invaded in that time. thus making Sevres de facto, not de jure.

>>2868459
>it didnt exist for 3 years(1918-1921)
Then who fought in the war which started in 1919?

>amazing accuracy
There are not as exact numbers compared to the holocaust because the germans were more systematic in their methods and the german governments who succeded the nazis have aided the investigations which has of course not happened in Turkey

>>2868571
>Then who fought in the war which started in 1919?
there were no wars in 1919 because there were no army to fight. wars were on 2 years. 1921 and 1922. in 1921 there were 3 skirmishes and 1 big war and in 1922 1 big war, destroying the greek army.
please educate yourself.
>nazis have aided the investigations which has of course not happened in Turkey
Turkey's archives for this matter is open to everyone. everyone is welcome to investigate.
do you know who refuses to open its archives but still chimps out? Armenian government.

>>2862641
well said

>>2852275
Atatürk was a kafir and abolished the caliphate.

>>2869036
Ottoman Empire was not a legitimate caliphate, but yes, he was a filthy infidel

>>2869036
>>2869050
fuck off arab shits. we did not kill you enough back in the day.

>>2869097
I'm a Tatar, not an Arab

>>2869135
it is worse then. you are believing in a stupid arab religion that stalled this region for hundreds of years.

>>2869135
same mongrel shit

>>2869160
>you are believing in a stupid arab religion that stalled this region for hundreds of years.

Better than being some stupid Tengri-worshipping pagan

>>2869182
fortunately I'm an atheist. I don't believe in shitty stories.

>>2869192
Narratives are a social construct.

>>2868616
>Turkey's archives for this matter is open to everyone. everyone is welcome to investigate.
You know they are highly classified, right? http://asbarez.com/130520/the-truth-behind-turkeys-open-archives/

Ataturk was our great leader just at the time when we needed one.
If not for him we would have colonized by christians so its retarted of radical muslims to hate on him.
Also the reforms he did actually gave the country a chance to fix itself, if not for him faggots like erdogan who use religion to get the uneducated people of the country to vote for him would be the norm instead of the exception.

>>2869196
what happened to that researcher is classic stupid state bureaucracy, thinking they are protecting something. his situation in '80 didn't help either.
if an international commission would be formed those archives can be reachable. it is stated so many times. don't go in as a private researcher, go with a commission to stop that idiot bureaucrats.

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>>2869222
>>2868616

>if an international commission would be formed those archives can be reachable.
>his situation in '80 didn't help either
>everyone is welcome to investigate.

>>2869302
>classic stupid state bureaucracy, thinking they are protecting something

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>>2866242
You do realize most Turks aren't actually Turkic genetically right? Most Turks are genetically similar to the native people of Anatolia. That includes fair skinned, fair haired people. That's not to say there aren't Asiatic turks but they certainly aren't the norm. I'm pretty sure the national turkish average is like 10-25% Turkic and the rest is just Anatolian blood.

>>2869610
>I'm pretty sure the national turkish average is like 10-25% Turkic
it is lower, 5-10%.