WTF I hate Allies now

>>2841583

It's almost like losing wars has negative consequences.

>kill millions of people on the battlefield and off
>Allies have enough generosity left at the war's end to allow Germany to exist at all

Germans got off easy desu

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>>2841599
>>2841583

Germans have zero right to complain about being partitioned.

They should be grateful that they still have a country instead of being annexed by France, Denmark, and Czechoslovakia.

Anyway, here's the accompanying color legend

Grey: This part was once the Heartland, the Founding Area or a very important Industrial/Cultural Centre of your Nation. Every Member of your ethnic group is deported or murdered. Roughly 1/8 of the Areas' population(s) will be murdered or die on the way to the "New" Nation. It is resettled by foreign people and they'll try their best to eradicate all signs of your centuries-old history there.
These Territories will be lost forever.
Soon, the next generations of your Nation will eventually forget that these Areas once were populated by your Nation's people, and your government will do their best to never mention this happening in history lessons in school.

Purple: These nations would become an own state, the people in it will start to deny they were ever
part of your nation and do not wish or want to reunite, even if extremely important
events of history for your national identity happened there and all residents had identified as part of your Nation
all the centuries before.

Red: These Areas will become a socialist/other totalitarian state whose foreign policy is enslaved to the one of a Vastly larger/more powerful Authoritarian Superpower. It will reunite with Blue after 30 to 100 years, but before, It will construct a heavy-armed walled border at which everyone is killed who tries to illegally pass.

Blue: This is the more democratic Nation. Its ideology is lead by a large Nation over the Ocean or on the other side of the Continent. It will eventually be able to reunite with Red someday in the next 100 years.

Beige/Dark Beige: This is the capital of your region. Most likely, it won't be part of any of the two nations (de jure), and its democratic part will be walled as well. up to 5000 people will die trying to cross over into the free.

>>2841720
But Austria in purple doesn't make sense, Austria was independent for almost all its history.

>>2841720
Anon your map is shit.

You show Germany with it's pre WW2 borders, but somehow Alsace Lorraine is included. France re-annexed Alsace Lorraine after WW1.

>>2841583
Its funny but these still work out as being fairer than the partitons carried out by the german empire and Nazi germany.

>>2841831
It's almost like whoever made this map is a butthurt Wehraboo who doesn't actually care about history aside form >muh heritage

I mean, including Austria is ridiculous - Austria was part of Germany for less than a decade in all of human history (no, the HRE wasn't Germany). If he had claimed the HRE as German heritage or something, with Vienna as a centuries-old center of German power, then that might work, but he explicitly goes with the "Prussia unified Germany, Prussia is the true fatherland" angle.

Austria and Germany waged wars in the 19th c. about who would be top dog in the Germanic areas. To then somehow claim Prussian leadership AND Austrian willing participation in the same is ludicrous.

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>>2841583
>>2841720

>Somebody actually went through the trouble to make this

WE WUZ ARYANS AND SHIT

>>2841583
WTF I hate OP now.

This is absurd, those other countries don't start World Wars and commit genocide.

Yeah, France should have got the rest of the left bank of the rhine/natural borders

>>2841583
>ywn get to live in the socialist, Parisian utopia of East France.

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>>2841583
>wage total war on the premise that might makes right
>get BTFO
>complain about how you;re treated by the people you attacked, who by natural right could (should) have had you utterly exterminated

is there anything more revolting than a G*rm?

>>2841720
>This part was once the Heartland

Except all that land was stolen from Poles and Balts, none of it was originally German.

>>2841917
What are you trying to say here? There definitely wasn't a distinct line between good and bad. The Allies committed just as many war crimes as the Axis.

>>2841583
talk shit, get hit.

>>2842382
You'll get out of that edgy phase when you grow up.

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>Try to take over Europe
>Get BTFO
>Cry that you're the REAL victims when you face the consequences for your actions

pic related

>>2842382
>>2842382
>Neonazis believe this shit.
Among all the sides and nations, only Germany had such racist and ethnic cleansing ideas. They should be happy with being left with that much of land.

>>2842401
based harris

>>2841583
boo hoo

>>2842382
If you count USSR as the allies. They had their own agenda and they switched sides after two years. They were a faction of their own.

>>2841583
The other countries are butchered excessively. Why would England lose East Anglia?

Shitty map which reflects the maker's bias.

>>2842400
>>2842402
>>2842423
Please actually study history instead of throwing around names. I am neither a neo-nazi nor edgy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden

Sure, Germany had more war crimes, but you can't justify war crimes by saying "the enemy had more".

>>2842440
One side had this as an official state policy together with the whole war of conquest.
That is until 1941 then Germany and Soviet Union had a split and we had two sides doing that.

>>2842401
DO
IT
AGAIN

>>2841720
>Grey: This part was once the Heartland, the Founding Area or a very important Industrial/Cultural Centre of your Nation.
>Sudetenland
>Heartland, Founding Area, Industrial/Cultural Centre of GERMANY
ayyy

>>2842440
But you can't discount the war crimes of the axis by pointing out that the allies also committed a few

>>2842440
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden
DO IT AGAIN BOMBER HARRIS

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>>2841971

>>2842481
So, the mature answer answer to the question "was therw a distinct good and bad side in WW2" is that they were both bad?

>>2842570
No. It's the Germans were worse than everyone else, but the Allies also committed some war crimes (especially the Soviets).

>>2841583
Don't start shit.

>>2842570
I'm sorry, but I can't seem to remember the Allies industriously rounding up and killing some six million jews, Poles, Romani etc. I can't seem to remember the Allies massacring swathes of German inteligentsia. I can't seem to remember them snatching and anglizing 'suitable' German babies. What I can remember is them mostly punishing their soldiers for instances of rape, killing of prisoners etc. Unlike Germans.

>>2842503
Literally the exact same scenario the native Americans bitch about

>>2841720
Grey: Areas stolen from other countries with their native population being forcibly expelled, treated as second class citizen or outright killed en mass.
Most nations pictured already lost this territory and thus the maps make zero sense. You should use maps like:
>Britain with entire Ireland occupied
>Russian Empire or USSR instead of Russia
>Napoleon's continental Empire
>Italy with Illyrian coast
>pretty much any American or African colonies of nations pictured

Purple: Smaller sovereign nations that were once their own kingdom or republic, but they happen to be speaking a dialect of the same language, so they are absorbed into bigger empire (primarily by political means rather than by force, but it is heavily implied that it will be used had they decide to not obey bigger nation). In few generations they will look like loonie LARPers trying to re-establish their own nation.
Most nations pictured still have this territory and there is always some interest for autonomy and in many cases referendums for independence held, however the smaller kingdom was absorbed hundereds of years ago, not less than 10 years ago.

>>2841622
true

>>2842597
>What I can remember is them mostly punishing their soldiers for instances of rape, killing of prisoners etc.

>mostly

you mean barely at all

>>2842676
I mean 'mostly'. For instance, American soldiers committing rape in France were regularly tried and convicted, and the Western Allies were fairly observant of the Hague and Geneva Conventions, as demonstrated by the death rates of POWs in Western Allied facilities in comparison to Axis (in particular German and Japanese) facilities found in the very article you posted to support your side.

>>2841720
>>2841583
>the far east is the Russian heartland
Holy shit hahaha

>>2842722

The Allies aren't just the Western Allies.

>regularly tried and convicted

So were Germans. Doesn't mean that there were convictions in most instances where rape occured. Regarding killing of POWs, I'm not sure either if most American who killed surrendering Japanese soldiers were convicted. As far as I'm informed, it was pretty widespread actually. It also happened on the Western front, not as often though.

>>2841583
>start 2 of the most destructive wars in history in the span of 30 years
>commit war crimes in both
>literally go exterminating people in the second
Germany should have been returned to it's natural state of several independent states, albeit even more simplified.
Germany is just as artificial as Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia.

>>2841583
>Germany has only been unified for a few decades
>it's only this war that made them see themselves as Germans
>but let's just break up nations which have been civilised for a long time

>>2842570
We have been through this /his/.

Behold the definite metric for measuring evil in WW2.

> Percentage of POWs that Died
>Soviet POWs held by Germans 57.5%
>German POWs held by Yugoslavs 41.2%
>German POWs held by Soviets 35.8%
>American POWs held by Japanese 33.0%
>German POWs held by Eastern Europeans 32.9%
>British POWs held by Japanese 24.8%
>German POWs held by Czechoslovaks 5.0%
>British POWs held by Germans 3.5%
>German POWs held by French 2.58%
>German POWs held by Americans 0.15%
>German POWs held by British 0.03%

Note, Chinese POWs held by Japan not included as evil was near total.

>>2842440
>>2842570
WW2 was not WW1, let's start the topic by understanding it. And nobody in this thread is trying to classify crimes as Allies and Axis. First Germans then Soviets had committed the most crimes, that is a fact cannot be denied.

The reason why Germany became infected with such sick ideology and unjust results of WW1 are topics to be discussed as it is important to understand the reasons behind the war. But I second the thing I have said before, neither any of the countries in WW2, nor any nation in the history classified themselves as pure race and tried to exterminate other races they accept as being sub-humans. Which makes them pure evil enemies to humankind.

>>2841599
I know. Palestinians should stop bawling.

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>>2842401
>>2841971
Nazis certainly deserved to be firebombed. But what about civilians ? Not every G*rm voted for Hitler, and not every G*rm who voted for Hitler knew what he was doing. People where brainwashed with propaganda and could not be aware of the crimes committed in their name.

I think the strategy of bombing the population centers is really what made this war terrible for everyone, and that theory predates the Nazis.

>>2842435
>Why would England lose East Anglia?
Dunno, why would Germany lose Prussia?

Life ain't fair.

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>>2842401
>lose a war that you escalated in the first by getting butthurt over us using your meme boarder state to beat up france
>lose the second war after you ran away at dunkirk and america and slavs killed us with their human waves and lend lease
>gets occupied and and run by allies and america
>just like the rest of europe right now
>reaping the whirlwind is getting ton of money from the marshal plan and becoming a powerhouse of europe AGAIN
>meanwhile a*glos and f*ench """people""" lose their empires
>somehow we are the bad guys here
>even tho like 80 years ago you started stupid war all the time
>once you started a war aginst china to get them addicted to drugs
>even committed genocide against native americans by giving them small pox blankets
>even now after brexit your capital city is a third would country
thanks for the free money my mate we totally wont try it again

>>2843293
>Britain lost World War One
Who was it that had communist revolutions

>>2843298
i was referring to germnay

>>2841799
U confuse the german nation with the german state. Every german state be it Bavaria, Hesse, Baden or Austria was an independant state, but they all are part of the german nation

>>2843293
say it with me now
A L S A C E
L O R R A I N E

>>2841873
You do the same mistake. You confuse the german state (which was indeed founded 1871) with the german nation. Austria was for half a millenium the leader of the Germans and is part of the german culture and language area and therefor nation.

>>2841906
Umm Belgium alone commited a genocide bigger than the Holocaust you history noob XD Not to think about the other colonial powers lol.

>>2843308
E L S A ß -
L O T H R I N G E N

>>2841971
So you completely ignore the pretext why Hitler could rise and start a war? One hint: Versailles. The arrogance of the allied caused the next war.

>>2841973
Who was in those lands before the slavics? Oh right, the germanic forefathers. It was a reconquista not a stealing you history noob XD Beside it wasn´t a violent conquest, the polish, czech, hungaryan and romanian lords called for german settlers.

>>2843308
say it with me now franks!
E N
M A R CH E !
seems you will be stuck in our polictal union for while now :)

>>2842402
Umm every colonial power had racist ideas XD Or the Ottomans with the Armenians.

>>2842495
kys

>>2842617
Nope. Amerindian genocide happened. Keep trying cumskin.

>>2842803
>Japansee soldiers surrenders.
>Your men move in forward to restrain them.
>NIPPON BANZAI *pulls grenade pin*
Can't really blame the Americans. Western allies still had the best record of not being evil shits to their PoW's. Just look at the difference between the western and eastern fronts

>>2842402
It's okay to own half the world if you're Anglo, it's not okay for German to annex German speaking part of poland.
It's okay to practice segregation (blacks in us),have racial laws, genocides (native Americans) and put people in camps (Japanese camps in the us) if you're Anglo, not if you're german.

Nice logic you're got there.

>>2842401
do it again

>>2842401
DO IT AGAIN BOMBER HARRIS

>I do not personally regard the whole of the remaining cities of Germany as worth the bones of one British Grenadier. It therefore seems to me that there is one and only one valid argument on which a case for giving up strategic bombing could be based, namely that it has already completed its task and that nothing now remains for the Armies to do except to occupy Germany against unorganized resistance.

>>2842617
Uh, no?

>>2843317
Nah the mercy of the allied caused WW2
Had Germany gotten the A-H treatment WW2 would have instead been known as the second Sino-Japanese war

>>2841583
don't start shit next time, retard

>>2843320
>our
>can't even get the Greeks to follow through with your orders and start panicking when they say they'll begin negotiating with Putin
Right...

>>2843318
East german are germanised slave.

>>2842401
Arthur "German town? Burn it down" Harris

Arthur "Ignite thermite across the Reich" Harris

>>2842803

Japanese rarely allowed themselves to be taken alive. Those that were taken alive (usually Japanese sailors who were rescued from sinking warships) were treated humanely.

>>2841583
cut-up britain looks like a dick

>>2843317
Boo-fucking-hoo. Germany was the main culprit of WW1

>>2843336
>It's okay to practice segregation (blacks in us),have racial laws, genocides (native Americans) and put people in camps (Japanese camps in the us) if you're Anglo, not if you're german.
That's why we still do it right? :^)

>>2842401
REAP
E
A
P

THE

WHIRL
I
N
D

>>2843415
Arthur "My only regret is they surrendered before we got the A-bomb" Harris

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>>2841583
Germans should be happy Allies didn't do anything like "generalplan west"

>>2842830
So Brits were good guys?

>>2843019

Civilians are one thing, but we're talking about G*rms, a race of subhuman filth, there are no civilian G*rms, they ALL need to wiped out.

>>2843336
>it's not okay for German to annex German speaking part of poland.

There was no German-speaking part of Poland. The Polish-German border was drawn in a way that left significant Polish-speaking areas in Germany, but virtually none of the opposite in Poland. Germans in Poland were a minority in the truest sense - they lived among more numerous Poles.

>>2843317
>Start a war
>Lose it
>get punished
>use that punishment as pretext to start another war
>lose that one, too
>cry and complain about DA BIG MEANIE ALLIES

Truly pathetic.

>>2843318
>Who was in those lands before the slavics?

proto Slavs.

>Oh right, the germanic forefathers.

Completely wrong. I'd accuse you of being a moron, but I actually think you're just a liar.

>>2843317
>One hint: Versailles

Versailles was one of the most lenient peace treaties ever. Far more lenient to what other Central Powers got and far more lenient what Germany imposed upon Russia and planned for other Allies.

German butthurt after Versailles is an example of utterly senseless butthurt.

>>2843318
You have literally no idea of what you are talking about. Slavs and Balts are literally descendants of populations that lived there from neolithic age.

>>2843307
Austria was doing its own thing for large portions of history tho

>>2845039

Nah, what France would do is set their borders on the Rhine, push the Polish border to the Elbe, and have a rump puppet state in the middle.

>>2841720
>Grey: This part was once the Heartland, the Founding Area or a very important Industrial/Cultural Centre of your Nation.
>Greater Poland core part of Germany.
For sure Hans, for sure.

>>2845109

If it was so great why did the US congress balk at ratification and instead sign a separate peace?

>>2843019
>the civilian populace shouldn't be held responsible for letting a mad dictator do what he wants

love this meme

>>2841583
I really question whether the divisions are based on anything or just made up on the spot because that french looks almost like something that could've happened if you adjust the borders a bit.
Also what does purple mean?
I assumed it meant independence but alsace-lorraine is purple too and that was annexed into france so it should be grey.

>>2843293
You can tell the genuine German posts on here from the murrifat larpers because it's only the Germans who have the flat-out balls to weep tears about the plight of the noble red man while they planned to exterminate half of Russia and populate the land with little clocktower villages. They did the same thing up to and during the war, it's funny seeing material back then from Nazis lecturing the Western powers about colonialism like they were some kind of moral authority.

>>2841873

I love the hypocrisy of the fucking kraut shitters the most. Biggest goddamn tears about versailles and crickets about how Brest-Livosk was a complete and utter rape of the Russians - Russians they helped put into office by shipping Lenin back.

>>2845039
They should have. Or just completely eviscerated the Prussians and dissolved Germany into a bunch of little states. Be nice to Bavaria or Saxony because they are civilized Germans.


All this mess wouldn't have happened if not for the Germans believing they had a rightful place in the sun because...they said so.

>>2841583
I don't see how Austria was some integral part of Germany, Prussia intentionally kept them out of the Zollverein before the union and forced them to fend for themselves

>>2845039
Maybe this would be too extreme, but I am among those who think Germany got it easy. The results of WW1 were much worse for countries like Austria-Hungary and Ottoman Empire. Germany just lost Eastern Part of its lands where they hardly had any majority and Austria got seperated, which was independent from them through the whole history.

I have liked to see Bavaria got separated as an addition to division between communism and capitalism. And considering Soviet took more lands from Poles than the ones they gave to them from Germany and huge casualties of them because of g*rms. A line of Poland could have been at the line of Berlin. France and Benelux countries were nothing but cucks, so it is fair they didn't take much.

>>2847460

In their Defense,

Russia's last thing of value that they produced was killing their own tsar

>>2841622
Poland was much more multiethnic so you cant really compare it with Germany

>>2842402
>half the Cossack population disappears among the gulags
>not ethnic cleansing

>>2841583
Letting germany live was a mistake.

>>2847863
so the guys that switched over from germany's side were the worst of the allies?

Huh, who would have guesses?

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>>2841583
>Alsass
>Sudetenland
>Danzig
>Austria
It's like a big long list of things that aren't Germany.

The German nation could be considered as having the Weimar borders.

>>2841599
>>2841622
They probably expected status quo antebellum like France after the Napoleonic Wars.

>>2847897
>Elsassich
>Nothing to do with Germany

In 1946 more than 90% of the population spoke German, they felt German, they were germans

>>2847897
Austrians always identified as germans
Austrian national identity didnt exist before 1945

>>2847913
They spoke German yes, but the rest of that statement is not objective. For centuries they had lived under French rule. That might not make them French, but they probably were not German as Germany didn't even exist at that time.

>>2847919
Austria has been around for centuries.
Germany didn't exist before 1871.

>>2847937
>identity
>state

>>2847897
>>2847937
>The English term Germans has historically referred to the German-speaking population of the Holy Roman Empire since the Late Middle Ages.[13]
hmmm

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>>2847937
>They might speak and act German but because they lived under the French they aren't German


I like to bash Germans for their autism as much as the next guy this this is just silly.

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>>2847951
>>2847975
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Question

>The Kleindeutsche Lösung ("Lesser German solution") sought only to unify the northern German states and did not include Austria; this proposal was favored by the Kingdom of Prussia.

Identities create states and states create identity. What we know as Germany was created by Prussian kings and armies, not by a loose gaggle of peoples occupying the vague area of a leftover medieval region.

>>2841583
PLEASE YES DO IT TO ITALY PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE OH GOD PLEASE

>>2847983
>unify the northern German states and did not include Austria
ie Austria is a German state

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>>2847897
>They probably expected status quo antebellum like France after the Napoleonic Wars.

It's mind-boggling how some Germans were surprised and outraged that they had to pay for their defeat, despite the fact that they also enforced territorial losses and reparations on countries they defeated.
This especially after WWI, were the Entente suffered horrific losses,Germany occupied and destroyed the infrastructure of Belgium and NE France and displaced millions of civilians and may other things.

It's similar to how the antiNazis of 1944 thought they could and should keep some of land they occupied after everything their country during the war.

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>>2847983
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Germany
Germany existed far before 1871 and back then it included Austria

>>2848002
>the Entente suffered horrific losses
Excluding the occupied areas nobody suffered worse than Germany thanks to the british blockade

>>2847919
But that's wrong. There was a huge political turmoil in Austria in the pre-anschluss years about the possibility of uniting with Germany. Their National Socialist party wanted unification and wanted it now, while others, in particular the Fatherland Front, wanted to retain independence due to the difference between catholic Austria and the predominantly protestant and Prussian-led Germany. Hell, Dollfuss was assassinated over this shit, and Mussolini was actually guaranteeing (fuck you, Mussolini, why did you have to go with Hitler) Austria's independence for a while (he stopped after distancing from Britain and France due to the failure of Stresa). During the war, Austria had a predominantly conservative monarchist separatist resistance movement which wanted to put Otto von Habsburg in power and used the sign O5 as their symbol.

So yeah, Austrians did not consider themselves the same as Germans.

>>2848022

> heavily dependent on Maritime trade due to inadequate agriculture.
> Picks a fight with the foremost naval power in the world

>>2847993
Then why did Prussia specifically exclude Austria from the customs union?

>>2848022
The occupation areas are relevant in explaining Entente attitude
http://www.remembrancetrails-northernfrance.com/history/the-department-of-nord-and-the-coal-basin-under-german-occupation/forced-labour-hostages-and-deportees.html

The point here isn't that Germany didn't also suffer or was a paradise during the war.
It is that the Entente suffered losses inflicted by Germans and that Germans somehow expected this to be forgotten and ignored.

>>2848038
This is nonsense. Immediately after 1918 there was a movement to unify with Germany approved by Social-Democrats and liberals. The reactionary and conservative elements were the ones against it.
Only much later did Nazis support this when they became a political movement.
Austria was the political center of Germany for centuries while Brandenburg was an irrelevant backwater.
I hate Germanboos but Austriafags need to fuck off.

>>2848069
>It is that the Entente suffered losses inflicted by Germans and that Germans somehow expected this to be forgotten and ignored.
But we should forget how the germans suffered losses inflicted by the Entente
Instead we should make Germany suffer even more

>>2848085
>Instead we should make Germany suffer even more
If you were an Entente citizen in 1914-1918 this is exactly what you would think.

>>2848098
Of course, because i have been brainwashed by propaganda and have never seen from the other sides point of view

>>2848069
>This is nonsense. Immediately after 1918 there was a movement to unify with Germany approved by Social-Democrats and liberals. The reactionary and conservative elements were the ones against it.
You're not speaking about the same period as I am. I was talking about the pre-anschluss years where the conflict was between the national socialists and the VF. As for 1918, the point is that the conservatives and monarchists opposed unification on the grounds of considering Austria distinct from Germany, which is exactly what I originally claimed.

>>2841720
>Purple: These nations would become an own state, the people in it will start to deny they were ever
>part of your nation and do not wish or want to reunite, even if extremely important
>events of history for your national identity happened there and all residents had identified as part of your Nation all the centuries before.
Moldova?

>>2848128
Kek, this.

>>2847937
They were also catholic, and the german empire was heretic as fuck.

>>2848105
How about being a civilian and being deported and used for forced labor by the German authorities? Or being displaced for 4 years?
Having your home destroyed by German artillery? Or your whole town? Having all your relatives killed on the front? Having your family starve while German military requisitions everything? Being executed?
How about seeing your comrades killed by German poison gas and flamethrowers?

>>2843307
lol no there was intense debate over kleindeutschland or grossdeutschland

>>2848153
>implying germans didnt go through those things

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>>2841617
>have colonies on all continents
>owns 20% of all land
>is the one's declaring the war
Hurrdurr Germany are the warmongers that wants to take over the world
>inb4 b-but Germany were the one's who started it by invading Poland
>implying the anglo gave a shit about the god damn Poles

>>2848069
>It is that the Entente suffered losses inflicted by Germans and that Germans somehow expected this to be forgotten and ignored.

The Germans actually made many offers to fund the reconstruction directly with German raw material and German labor. The French declined because they wanted to keep the reconstruction business for themselves and use reparations as a means of long-term control over Germany.

>>2848262
>frenchies would rather punish the germans than help themselves
God do i fucking hate them

>>2847863
It was an ideological cleansing, not a racial one. Third Reich classified people just based on their races.

>>2848428
They did deport and kill plenty of chechens, tatars, balts, poles and germans among others solely based on their ethnicity

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>>2845092

>>2847993
>Austria is a German state
>Only part of Germany for ten years

>>2848422
>wanting to punish those that harmed you is bad