Has it ever worked?

>>2828339
Nope. It always start in shit country and is always forced, It will work when It will be implemented gradually and not against the will.

t. socialist

Not well.

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>>2828339
1970s China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_GDP_of_China

>>2828339
Not in the long term, no. Its a stagnat system. Any system without conflict or competition is doomed to stagnate.

It's worked...just not very well.

>>2828339
Communism like Fascism only saw booms when they forcefully started modernizing every industry

it was science and tech not social policy

>>2828339
Might have worked with better technology and distribution. For most of the 20c USSR was only second to Japan in long term GDP growth. There was lots of investment as they didn't have to predict future market demand,

Only after 1970 did things grind to a halt
I still think there is hope for highly computerised central planning in the future.

>>2828339
How can it work if it's never been tried?

>>2828339
Ask yourself this question, If you have to point your guns inwards, will it ever work?

>>2828339
It's a system used to coax young idealistic yet stupid people into supporting the creation of totalitarianism.

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>>2828783
You are damn right

>>2829057
thats what you get for voting drumpf

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>>2828783
The guns always point inward that's the purpose of a state you fucking mongoloid

Holy fuck I'm triggered

>>2828395
t. retard

>>2828680
>>2828703
>>2829070
fucking commies get physically removed

>>2828339
communism and socialism will never work because they are the socio political equivalent of a forced meme
the average worker is too fucking stupid and incompetent to co-own and run a factory or any type of enterprise for that matter, and the abolition of personal freedom is antithetical to the human pursuit of happiness

>>2828339
No and never will

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>commies

>>2829110
>voted for Trump
>says socialism and communism are forced memes
Never change internet conservative warriors

>>2828463
China hasn't been communist since Mao. After Deng Xiaopeng took over, he effectively made it something he called "state capitalism" with his market reforms. He primarily did this because the economy was completely in the shitter after the Sino-Soviet split.

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>>2828339

>>2828339
No and I don't think it will ever work.

There will always be people who are more skilled than others. The attempt to bring them down to the less skilled level, which might always be the majority, because it's 'law we have to be equal' will stunt many types of growth.

People who stand out shouldn't automatically be thought of as threats, but you see the less skilled, even in American society, trying to eliminate rewards for achievement. I think the SJW is attempting this. Playing victim in an attempt to bring down people who they percieve as root causes of their insecurites.

>>2828339
Socialism is like a recently fueled car. It works for a while, but eventually the gas runs out and then you have to use flint firestone drive, if you wanna use it at all since there are no gas stations. And that just slows you and everyone else on the road down.

Is /his/ basically just /r/debatecommunism now?

>>2829175
First of all I am not a communist. That said, communism doesn't want to bring everyone to a mediocre state of skill but give everyone the access to the same opportunities and access to the means of production by using a strong state that keeps anyone from imposing their interests above the others

>>2828463
that image looks pretty good

>>2828339
in human tribes probably.

>>2829193
Maybe I'm thinking of Marxism...either way, I remember reading or hearing how both ultimately lead to the hell that is the suppression of growth due to the insecurities that can stem from having more skilled individuals.

>>2828395
>gradually
Thats dumb. Communism is all about the proletariat rising up after decades of shit and overthrowing the bourgeois, which doesn't sound very gradual to me.

>>2829228
That's a criticism made from neoliberalism which isn't really based upon reliable data. Read something coming from communists or anarchists to have a more complex view of socialism and do not limit yourself to internet criticism

>>2829193
>a strong state
Thus is the opposite of communism. Communists want to abolish the state

>>2828339
Today it's only used to scare people from trying to solve the problems of Capitalism, because the rich need poverty to coexist with them.
>>2828478
Stagnate in which sense?
>>2828783
Guns aren't needed when you can let the elite starve to death.
>>2829040
Capitalism is a system used to coax old stupid people into believing they are isolated from other people with a common class interest, who therefore have nothing to do in this world other than to follow the way private owners paved for them, giving up their power and freedom in exchange of false expectations of ascending in the hierarchy due to their own merits.
>>2829110
What makes you think you are above average? Why does every rightist think they are? Specially when accusing the left of disrespectful why saying things like >fucking commies get physically removed
>>2829119
>Haha no I wouldn't be working the fields or working in a factory. No, I'd be a card carrying party memeber after the revolution.
This is more of a capitalist mentality.
>>2829175
Except it doesn't work like this, the diligent worker prefers to think they appear more skilled to their employees than their ''competitors'', but business owners don't actually give a shit as long as they can pass their position to their children instead. there is no Meritocracy.
>but you see the less skilled, even in American society, trying to eliminate rewards for achievement.
What reward is better than freedom and an autonomous existence?

>>2828680
>Only after 1970 did things grind to a halt
What a blatant fucking lie.
Growth of the official economy was always slow, tentative and achieved in short-term boosts fueled by either blood, war or ideological zeal of the "middle management" classes.
Socialism has had many benefits. Most go unmentioned and are hard to quantify. But growing the economy was definitely not one of them.

>>2829256
That's anarchism.

>>2829256
They want to abolish the state by using the state anon, that's the main criticism made by libertarian socialists

>>2829272
It's what Marx wanted

>>2829272
They were the same movement until Marx and Bakunin started throwing shit to each other

*wipes stinky shot off my ass with the manifesto*
heh, looks like it works for some things

>>2829260
Do you agree that 10% of the population needs to die in order to establish a marxist inspired government?

>>2829301
What are you, a faggot? Fucking 99% of the population or nothing

>>2829294
Reddit in shambles

>>2829301
No. but i think the means of production and the infrastructures should be public property, and that personal wealth should be proportionate to our inherent human needs. For that, death is not necessary, just for people who acumulate privileges to give them up.
Overpopulation is another problem though, but that is a different matter completely.

>>2829294
I meant shit not shot.
Fug

>>2828395
How do you explain Venezuela then? Theyre the most resource rich country in the world, yet they are resorting to fucking canabalism.

>>2829085
Yea but not to the extent of communism where youre working slave labour at gun point. In America, we have fences to keep people out, in russia its to keep people in.

>>2829250
Jordan Peterson covers this more accurately than I am.

I remember him pointing out that Russia had to post reminders to people to not eat their children during their famines. He pointed out that all this stemmed from their Marxism and Communism etc etc

He pointed out that if you were a successful farmer, selling your goods, you could easily be reported for making too much money. And then you would have to suppress your production of goods, in this case it was food. This contributed to the famine.

Now I think Peterson was pointing out the reality of human behavior, things like jealousy...which caused the reporting to officials of successful individuals.

Marxism, Communism, how ever he linked the two, he pointed out how these ideologues will always lead to oppression and suppression. Because it gives credence and power to the lesser and allows the lesser to keep everyone lesser.

It was a fascinating the way he explained it.

But yeah, he explains it more thoroughly then I ever could

>>2829132
i didn't vote for trump because i do not live in the yoo ess ay, my friend

>>2829260
>What makes you think you are above average? Why does every rightist think they are? Specially when accusing the left of disrespectful why saying things like >fucking commies get physically removed

l2 greentext faggot
and i don't think i'm particularly above average, which is why i come in every day and sit at my desk and do my job, faggot
i fulfill a need the owner the factory has, and i exchange my labor for money
it's that easy

Is third position a meme?
Like, I believe that people should be guaranteed food, water, housing, healthcare, the ability to live a stress-free life, etc. but I don't really care for the workers owning the means of production or the abolition of wage labor and all that. I also believe capitalists are a drain on my people's happiness and the government should do more to keep the upper class in check and not allow them to extort our people.
I feel like everything is just commies or capitalists these days

>>2829256
Marx wanted to abolish the state after the people have learned the ways of communism from the state. But in reality, do commies actually think that the state would just simply give up all their luxury and power just because gommunism xd. The state is there to stay in communism.

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>>2829425
Because they started out fine, and then lost ground contact, never solved their core issues, but forget to go back to fix em.

Then again: Venuzuela is famed because the core action of the Commune has been to unsegregate the Rich from the Poor, so the upper class gets subjected to Faevela violence, which in itself is a good thing.
Sadly, it did not spiral into The Upper Classes wanting to fix Venezuela, but instead massive upperclass flight for those who could.

>>2829260
>This is more of a capitalist mentality.
no it's what literally every college iPhone-communist thinks of themselves
since "they would bring about the revolution", they would "obviously be in a position of authority in the new government"

>>2829472
Yes, thats what Nazism or Strasserism is about. Taking socialism from the left, and nationalism from the right, while rejecting the socialist globalism, and rejecting capitalism.
It was such a powerful system it took the entire world to extinguish the flame of Hitler- And the flame never died...

>>2829472
>guaranteed water
ok...
>food, housing, healthcare, stress free life
why?
what is the purpose of life if not to overcome these things through labor?
why do commies want to take work out of life?

>>2829479
Everytime communism or socialism is tried, it fails for some complicated technicality that wasnt "real" socialism. If socialism is so fucking complicated that it fails everytime, then it wasnt meant to work.

>>2829479
>lost ground contact
>core issues
>violence againt upper classes is good

you really are a fucking moron aren't you?
what do these words even mean?

>>2829472
Third position is a code name for fascism. What you think of is social capitalism or social democracy. You use capitalism to power your economy but tax it to fix what it break.

>>2829479
>[...]gets subjected to Faevela violence, which in itself is a good thing.
Socialist logic. Your hate for people you never talked with make you wish evil for the sake of evil. You are like an edgy teenager.

I think removing violence from the favelas is a good thing. Making it a poor working class part is the next good thing to do. Then, you make it a working class suburban area.

>>2829432
Source on Rusia having fences to keep people in?
Btw, you are aware that Russia isn't communist, aren't you?

>>2829509
>kill the smartest flower of society
>country devolves into violence
>mass starvation

Why is this still a relevant political ideology? Its more of a strange philosophical half baked idea than it is political.

>>2829529
My grandparents had to pay off guards and find ways to leave Ukraine undetected. Its a metaphorical fence.
Also, they were entirely communist.

>>2829110
>the average worker is too fucking stupid and incompetent to co-own and run a factory or any type of enterprise
Are you telling me workers who own their company's shares are too stupid to co-own or run the said enterprise because owningshares grants one those very privileges?

>>2829460
While the owner keeps most of the money you and your fellow co-workers produce while making you think his position is relevant. Not a bad deal for him to be born with such privileges.
>>2829484
Not my case. (I don't even have a smartphone since they use them to keep you in check with the private data you allow them to have).
Honestly, if such people make claims of them having to save others/deserving a position of authority, they are missing the point completely. The only way for a fair Communism to succeed long term is from an empowering education of all people and a collective political organization, not from following enlightened leaders.

>>2829496
>people need to be worked half to death and live paycheck to paycheck just to feed their family. No need for social programs otherwise Mr. Hebrewstein would have to pay more than $10 out of his 3.7billion salary. Don't worry about healthcare, Mr. Shekelstein will offer you a great plan just like he did with the mortgage on your 1 bedroom house. You better not complain to your boss, Mr. Goldberg, or he'll import Jose and his 13 siblings to do your work for a quarter as much. You don't want to be a commie, right goy?

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>>2829509
If society works by segregation, so all issues are bound to the segregated classes, there will be no will to fix it.
The problem is that it just leads to more violence, which leads to more violence, which leads to a economic downward spiral in a already bad economy, making things worse.

The fact that its such a issue, is a sign that the society in question isn't very advanced.
And by such: It was a failure to even try that, but the idea would be sound if there was a actual form of Nationalism in Venezuela instead of light commie hatred of everything.

The fact it was tried, is a sign that factual dictators of Venezuela has no idea what they are doing, and they can't get good ideas that work.

>>2829530
Because, at the core of the ideology, at some point you need to acquire the means of production.
And then shit hits the fan for several reasons, including failure to utilize the means of production if seized at all.
Socialism as a revolution is basically doomed to be shit, because changing ownership is generally a dangerous thing for everyone involved.
DOOMED TO BE SHIT

>>2829496
>third position
>"commies"

Define "worked".

>>2829537
You used 'its' instead of 'it was'.

>>2829556
>the Cold War was actually a civil war between two Jewish families
You taken the red pill yet

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>>2829529
It's still here. Go take a look.

>>2829609
That is in Germany, and I don't think that fence is still used to keep people on one side of it.

voluntary communes have worked on a local level, second aliyah era kibbutzes for example

>>2829553
>born with such privileges
kek cry harder because you'll never be smart enough to start a business
>>2829549
yes. in communism the owner would be kicked out and the workers would run the show
if that were to happen where i work, the whole thing would grind to a halt in a matter of days
>>2829556
>ooooh i'm sad that i have to pay for people to provide services for me waaaaaah
welcome to the real world, anon
>>2829562
>If society works by segregation
but it doesn't, does it?
"the workers" is not a class, it's just a trait of some proportion of people
not everyone has the same goals, m8, and people don't magically align themselves the same way just because they are all poor
>>2829570
lmao yeah, anything left of me is communism, don't you know?

Communism is pretty easy to explain. Essentially, it exists primarily as a channel for politically charged people to gain power. It's sort of like how every Republican doesn't actually believe in Republican values and vice versa. They just play the part since the deck of cards they were dealt basically only permits them that avenue of power/success.

The real problem is the people (failed capitalists) that propagate the notion of communism. Literally no successful capitalist thinks communism is a good idea. It's just failures. It's the same reason why I started calling myself a traditionalist (cause I can't get any pussy).

>>2829823
What i am saying, is that by saying
>but it doesn't, does it?
>"the workers" is not a class, it's just a trait of some proportion of people
>not everyone has the same goals, m8, and people don't magically align themselves the same way just because they are all poop
You are not saying anything. You got a passive aggressive edge, with no argument or method.


Segregation: Problem that the segregates are fine with segregation because it makes the problem go elsewhere.
But generally segregated problems bleeds into the rest of society, causing massive social unrest and instability. Even more so when its the majority that is discriminated against.
Ending segregation, is a good move, IF society is willing to deal with the problems that is causing segregation to be a popular action.
In Venezuela case, its just a excuse to let the lower class loot the upper class, instead of just each other.

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I like that /his/ constantly complains about Hitler and holocaust threads but never says a word about the everyday "it wasn't real communism" threads

>>2829886
Except segregation is an artificial and state enforced separation of certain sectors of the population
Wealth and power discrepancy is an organic and natural part of humanity, as is hierarchy.
I don't really know or care what you're talking about because it sounds like pseudo intellectual leftist rhetoric, but venezuela is a shithole because of communism and you know it

>>2829847
Well that's the history of the URSS and communist politicians but I think that there's a lot of people who actually believe it's a good system and would be beneficial for humanity. I am not a communist though, I mostly sympathize with traditionalism and the peasant anarchist movements that were successful in Spain during their war until soviets attacked them

>>2829916
But the hlocaust was the genoicde of an 'inferior' race, and Hitler did make new racial ideas to justify his alliances with them Slav states
True communism can only be reached when there is no state and the world is unified
A catholic theocracy without God

>>2829933
>but venezuela is a shithole because of communism
Nobody will disagree with that.
But that doesn't change that what makes Venezuela so newsworthy over other shitholes, is the news of the higher classes being unable to segregate themselves away from the looting/theft/kidnapping and other things the plagues the favelas.

>>2829953
I like that idea of a catholic theocracy without God. It kinda sounded dumb at first but if you think about it it's a good metaphor

>>2828339
Communism is basically fascism with actual balls.

It does great in war and situations that require mobilization in general (space race comes to mind), but can not compete in peacetime against the capitalist regimes.

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>>2828339

No, and it will never work.
I am from the east block and was born in 94' but i was raised with all the stories about the communist pricks.
If someone is shitposting about the democracy, he just doesn't know what it is to be in a totalitarian regime.

Fuck off milenials that have no other trouble than having 100- like on instagram.

>>2829984
>the USSR was real communism
Nice meme

>>2829823
I could start a business, but it wouldn't make a difference since the markets are monopolized by the high class.
>the whole thing would grind to a halt in a matter of days
Maybe it's for the better.
>ooooh i'm sad that i have to pay for people to provide services for me waaaaaah
You are putting words on anon's mouth. I think their comment has more to do with the powerful needing the workers' service and not the other way around.
>If society works by segregation
>but it doesn't, does it?
Your place in Capitalism is decided by which family you are born in. If you believe the infrastructure of power(economy) isn't owned/inherited privately, you must be quite deluded.
>not everyone has the same goals
Every human being has some basic needs that need to be covered, and the same goal of being happy. Maybe through different means, but same goal, and everyone should have those means guaranteed as long as they are realistic (relying in your OWN labor, instead of requiring others').
>>2829847
There is no such things as failed capitalists, the notion of Communism comes from an egalitarian common sense, while the notion of Capitalism comes from a hyerarchycal convenience which people who doesn't want to worry about power happily buy.
In the end, any ideology is a social construct to help organize people with similar political orientation in order to establish a set of rules to guarantee a common good for those involved. There is not a system which is better than others, each is better for their respective political/economical class. The fact that Communism isn't being implemented today is because the bottom of the pyramid has yet to recognize itself and as such, organize; just because the possibility hasn't awoken yet doesn't justify your immobilist, result driven view, as human nature: refer to >>2828703
>>2829976
Communism is antinationalist because human egalitarianism, it's only acceptable in a worldwide scale without dividing humanity.

>>2829967
i guess, i never read the news about venezuela so i don't know what goes on there

>>2829984
>Born 94
>Parents grew up in Post-Stalin
Try harder.

>>2829984
You don't know what it's like either you tremendous piece of a faggot slav

>>2829997
>Communism is antinationalist because human egalitarianism

That's hillariosly American thing to say. Communism and nationalism appear more often together in one camp rather then standing against each other.

>>2829984
>muh anecdote
Fuck off back to drinking rakia, Milosh

>>2829976
>space race comes to mind

top kek!!!

>>2829997
>the markets are monopolized by the high class
how defeatist of you
>maybe it's for the better
edgy
>powerful needing the workers' service and not the other way around
except the workers do need the powerful's guidance, leadership and expertise
>Your place in Capitalism is decided by which family you are born in
no, it's about how well you play the game
>Every human being has some basic needs that need to be covered
yes and often times several people's needs clash with each other, even if they're in the same "class" of people
personal interests outweigh "class" interests
>same goal of being happy
not true
>everyone should have those means guaranteed
why?
>relying in your OWN labor, instead of requiring others'
except you will ALWAYS rely on other people's labor because you live in a country that has infrastructure and an economy, which allows you to move about and do things
if you really want to be self reliant, go live in the woods

>>2829997
>egalitarian common sense
oh that is rich
why is it that every leftist thinks their ideology is just "common sense" and "naturally obvious"

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>>2828463
>who the fuck is deng and what the fuck is free markets.

>>2830030
>Le if you don't like the system go live in the woods xD ebin meme
Opinion discarded

>>2830035
Becoming "common sense" is endgame for ideology

>>2830035
I don't know if this is true for everyone but I think what a lot of leftists fail to realize is that their opponents don't necessarily disagree with them out of principle. In other words, many libertarians would not mind living in a society where an efficient government can actually appropriate tax revenue responsibly for its citizens. The grim and inevitable conclusion that we arrive at is that this kind of utopia simply can not exist. History has shown us time and time again that government is simply not capable of this responsibility and the only realistic path is minimizing their intervention as much as possible.

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>>2829996
What was real communism if it this wasn't? Oh, yeah, the utopia that can't be true becuase human nature is corrupted.
>>2830001
Post Stalin? What the fuck are you talking about you uneducated born-in-the-first-world brainwashed dog? What the fuck do you know about communistic state?

>>2830010
I told you faggots that i grew up being raised by people who have lived it. What would you do, when you fuck the shit out of your ass to build your own bussines, get tons of hours work, loose time educating yourself to build a better factory and then BOOOM, communism happens. They take everything from you, put you in jail because you are fucking smart which equal to dangerous to the state. And die in misery just because you had dreams and worked hard for them.
Fuck you if you think this is okay, and FUCK YOU much more if you think (the real) comminism never exist, autistic highschool prick. You still have to learn and study. Read more, explore more.

>>2830045
>wanting to be exempt from the rules of society while also benefiting from the rules of society
>not absolutely retarded
pick one

>>2830069
>Human nature is corrupted
Thomas Hobbes go home

>>2830069
>eastern Europe
>smart
I don't think so little slave

>be me
>look at the retards in this thread say "how can we know communism doesn't work if its never been tried?"
>mfw these people are too stupid to realize it HAS been tried multiple times throughout history
>mfw these people are too stupid to realize it fails every time because humans can't be trusted

>>2830098
no, it fails every time because communism is retarded

>>2830001
Gib reparations

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Why do you hipsters think that the world we live in is ''true'' capitalism and that the communism that was back then wasn't ''true communism''?

The perfect capitalism puts the people where they belong as well. You can work, produce, gain and grow if you want. Of course, there are artist that have to be bus drivers. But then again, there were artists in the communistic states that wanted to be so and not work in a factory. Why do you compare the worst in one thing (the realization) with the best of the other thing (the utopical idea)?

No hipster has ever answered this question. You can't either......

>>2830069
If humans can abstain from greed then it can exist

>>2830069
>fuck the shit out of your ass
Why did raping someone become seen as gay and not dominating in England

>>2830017
I'm as anti-american as anti-china as anti-spain, Communism doesn't exist until the whole humanity live on same terms and law.
>>2830030
>how defeatist of you
Why, whem i'm stating the truth. I may be successful but most people won't be, so what's the point.
>edgy
My point is that your factory's interests are your boss' not yours.
>except the workers do need the powerful's guidance, leadership and expertise
That's what they want you to believe, usually, in a cult, they brainwash people through making them ignore their worries.
>no, it's about how well you play the game
This is again, a lie, spread by the true defeatists who resort to cynicism to avoid questioning the power.
>people
personal interests outweigh "class" interests
Except personal interests cannot have any social impact whatsoever and cannot outweigh neither class interests, not even of the rich minority, who do organize.
>not true
People will respect your goal of not being happy if you respect theirs of being so, i'm sure any masochist would find their place in any communist neighborhood.
>why?
Because we aren't cattle, we are rational beings with the same capabilities of choosing our rights/duties than our owners.
>except you will ALWAYS rely on other people's labor
I don't mind that, i just don't think the few who put themselves on top of the rest are required. You won't know what to do with power unless you find yourself in the obligation of wielding it, together with other people, in this case.
>>2830035
It is for a humanist.

>>2830090
>not believing in an autokrator

>>2830098
People tried to implement it but never reached it

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>>2830096

Tesla doesn't think you are smart as well, faggot. This is what you can bring up and nothing more, just speaking loud and that's it.
>>2830090
You can go home too and work on your gender studies or social sciences and think how smart you are by knowing ''better'' how this world works.
Kant was an autist who never got out of his village like FOR WHOLE HIS LIFE, by the way.

>>2830069
He obviously knows more than you if you don't know what "post-Stalin" means.

>>2830122
On >people
i meant >personal interests outweigh "class" interests

>>2830135

It was a rhetorical question, Anon. I have bad news for you too..

>>2830133
If human nature is "corrupt," there must be something "pure" to compare against it. What is this ideal, clean type of behavior you cherish?

>>2830122
>most people won't be
this is ok and they shouldn't
only the best should succeed
>your factory's interests are your boss' not yours
i'm interested in staying employed, and fuck me if i'll allow those dumbasses to run my employment into the dirt in the name of "autonomy"
>Except personal interests cannot have any social impact whatsoever
yes they can, what are consumer trends and market pressures?
you seem to forget that the endgame of capitalism is to sell shit to consumers
if people don't buy your goods or services, no amount of "class privilege" is going to keep your ass afloat
>Because we aren't cattle
so you want to be treated like cattle by a state that provides all these things for you
think before you post, anon!
> i just don't think the few who put themselves on top of the rest are required
yes they are
get a job and see for yourself, college fag
people are dumb and require management
>It is for a humanist.
no, because a humanist wouldn't want everyone to live in poverty, misery and oppression under totalitarian communist rule

>>2830133
Anon, you have to be 18+ to post here

>>2830166
I'll answer for him: neoliberalist morale :^)

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>>2830098
>be a retard
>use be me even though you can't be anyone else
People can't be trusted under any system, faggot.

>>2828339
Communism has and never will work

>>2830182
>>2830166

There always comes a time in the history that the opposition tries hard to make sense and this is why at this point we got high level of autism in form of new problems.
What ''pure'' do you mean exactly? Is this Lord of the Rings or what? There are pure people that try hard to have successfull life and help others. What else actually you need? A totalitarian system that only cares about it's survival? Besides, there is no ideal, for that the men are not ideal. We can't create a perfect system, because we are not perfect. An inperfect creature can't create a perfect system. But the democracy-capitalism that we live all now, is the best that we have ever reached with the blood of milions of people. Instead to enjoy it, you hipsters, are shitting on it. I would have wished for you to see the ''true'' comminism, damn.

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>>2830212

>>2830241

t. anarchist-15yo-teenager-that-has-no-clue-what-the-fuck-is-going-around

Who said it's perfect? Who said it works in the best way? I even told you that the realization is not like the idea but still... it's much, but much much more better than everything else we came up. Living in your comfort zone and not fighting for your life AND COMPLAINING ABOUT, is a privillage, that only you have for the whole history of the humanity. Please tell your ideas to someone who lives in North Korea or a failed capitalistic system like in the poor regions in India. Please tell them how hard is your life, how tortured you are. How life is not good in the west. I'll wait here for your answer.

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By the way, i know why most of the NEEEEEETS are against the capitalistic system. Because they can't really blame the system for their lazyness and unseccessfull life. I don't have successfull life either, but i am manly enough to accept it. I still have time and motivation to go on, and what about you, lazy autistic pricks?

>>2830272
>>2830253
You are really triggered anon, I was just messing with you. I actually agree with almost everything you said except for the affirmation of 'you can't complain if you live better than your grandparents did' which I think it's the factor that leads to lazyness and conformism

>>2830156
I know that you brain damaged Slavic letztermensch, I'm pointing out that there is no rhetoric surrounding the question, so that response to it is as reasonable as any. You didn't show why he knows nothing about practical communism.

>>2830212
>says there is no ideal
>still maintains humans are "imperfect"
Oh, I get it, you actually are retarded

>>2830168
Why are you so attached to having to be employed by someone else when in a different system you could employ yourself.
>if people don't buy your goods or services, no amount of "class privilege" is going to keep your ass afloat
So you agree that consumers and workers are the ones who really have the power, just not realizing it yet?
>so you want to be treated like cattle by a state that provides all these things for you
When did you understand that? I want EVERYONE to be the state, that includes you and me.
>get a job and see for yourself, college fag
Why are you projecting now, don't pretend you know me from the stereotypes in your mind.
I didn't went to college although i like studying, and i had a job in which everyone who didn't fuck up was fired after a year regardless because of the huge unemployment pool in the place i happened to be born in.
>people are dumb and require management
People are dumb because stupidity is encouraged by the media.
In a Communist state, we could agree on making people switch roles when working, from coordinators to physical laborers, without allowing anyone to be paid the miserable wages that are the leftovers of the company CEO who simply sits on their couch while individually bribing whoever stands on their way. I don't see how the strategic decisions of such business couldn't be chosen democratically in such system.
>no, because a humanist wouldn't want everyone to live in poverty, misery and oppression
And i don't, thats why i want an alternative to Capitalism, whether you want to call it Communism or not.
>under totalitarian communist rule
Is this demagogy? Since when is it implied that a Communist system has to be totalitarian?

>>2830306
Are you spanish anon?

>>2830318
Why are you asking?

>>2830326
You made a reference to Spain before and your view of communism and the capitalist crisis sounds very similar to that of lots of people I know here in Spain

>>2830339
I am, but that's was just an example.
>inb4 this will be used as relevant in the discussion.

>>2830350
I think we lots of people on our country have a positive view of communism and socialism because of the total opposition that it means to our recent history. Salud camarada!

>>2830306
wow ok lots to unpack here
> in a different system you could employ yourself.
you can employ yourself in capitalism, you just have to be good at something and not a loser
>So you agree that consumers and workers are the ones who really have the power
yes? still doesn't mean they can run an entire country without hierarchical leadership structures
> and i had a job in which everyone who didn't fuck up was fired after a year regardless
valgame dios que triste es la vida en la bella españa

ok here comes the big one
>In a Communist state, we could agree on making people switch roles when working
means
>i can force people to work at what i want them to work at, regardles of their personal interest

>coordinators
this is the upper class you want to get rid of

> CEO who simply sits on their couch
this tells me you don't understand the world
the "ceo" is just a position in the company
what i guess you mean is the owner(s), who, despite what you may think, actually put their own money into the company to buy the machines and the material, etc. and are the ones who stand to lose the most if the company fails
if you don't want to answer to a CEO, then just start a "socialist" company of your own, like a co-op or an "employee owned company". that's possible in capitalism, not in communism

> I don't see how the strategic decisions of such business couldn't be chosen democratically
because lowly workers don't know how to run a business and are unwilling and unable to take on such a risk with their "capital"

>Is this demagogy? Since when is it implied that a Communist system has to be totalitarian?
because that's what it's been every time it was tried
and that's what it'll be every time it is attempted again

you know, i was once like you, anon
i quite like this discussion let's keep it going

>>2830122
>I'm as anti-american as anti-china as anti-spain, Communism doesn't exist until the whole humanity live on same terms and law.
That's pure communism though, not communism of communistic states and parties.

>>2830408
Oh... he's a globalist
How tragic

>>2830367
I completely agree with you, every country has like their own biased view on politics, so i find it important that we must communicate in a rational way in order to solve everyones problems. Humanity still has a long way to go, for us to just earn wages to buy random shit you don't feel the need to have until someone else does.
>>2830368
>you can employ yourself in capitalism, you just have to be good at something and not a loser
It's not that i'm not good at whatever, i'm just not a selfish person believe it or not. I still disagree in that being better than the rest guarantees success.
>yes? still doesn't mean they can run an entire country without hierarchical leadership structures
Right there, you actually defined my life goal.
>because lowly workers don't know how to run a business and are unwilling and unable to take on such a risk with their "capital"
No one is born with default knowledge, so no reason to be so hopeless. As for people's unwillingness, i think it depends on their hopes and the hopes they percieve from their co-workers, because a labor strike of one person isn't going to do shit.
>you know, i was once like you, anon
I heard this alot from a good chunk of people i talk with (in a more ore less literal ways). I think our difference is that you see the world in a place you have been forced to adapt, while i'm someone who won't ever be able to stop questioning it and who is responsible for making it the way it is.
>i quite like this discussion let's keep it going
This is nice to hear, but i'm gonna rest for a bit because i think i made my point enough. Maybe i'll come back if the thread stays alive.
>>2830408
Lol i wasn't even aware there were such types, i see my ideal state as economical Communism with federalist distribution of territory.
>>2830431
>he
Did you just imply my gender?!!!
Well, you guessed it anyway.

>>2830563
> i'm just not a selfish person believe it or not
you can choose to run your business as charitably as you want, that's your choice
the mere act of owning something does not make you selfish, believe it or not

>Right there, you actually defined my life goal.
humans need hierarchy and leadership
this is a fact you're going to have to come to terms with. i know i did
>No one is born with default knowledge, so no reason to be so hopeless. As for people's unwillingness, i think it depends on their hopes and the hopes they percieve from their co-workers, because a labor strike of one person isn't going to do shit.
i guess... but you don't need communism for this, that's just using your value in a capitalist system to negotiate with the employer, as any other part of the machine would
> I think our difference is that you see the world in a place you have been forced to adapt, while i'm someone who won't ever be able to stop questioning it and who is responsible for making it the way it is.
don't be so quick to judge, silly commie anon :)
i also see things wrong in this world and would like to change them, but i accept human nature and know that i have to work within that framework if i want to get anywhere with my ambitions of change
>This is nice to hear, but i'm gonna rest for a bit because i think i made my point enough. Maybe i'll come back if the thread stays alive.
que tengas buena siesta, amigo español.
salu2 desde guatemala

>>2828339
not yet

having information available and the ability for economic direction from a coordinated position isn't the worst thing: look at how South Korea became the world leader in cosmetics.

So soviet style communism is a sham, but having a social safety net and investing in your populace (affordable school, healthcare) yields a significant return.

so many retarded lefties on this board, no.

>>2830606
yes but this
> but having a social safety net and investing in your populace (affordable school, healthcare)
isn't communism or socialism, it's just welfare

>>2830609
/leftypol/ and some commie subreddits are doing active raids on /his/ and /lit/

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>>2828339
Nope. Communism is slavery

>>2830731
>And jews and lesbians and sjw and Hillary and...!
Nice try /pol/

What does "worked" even mean OP?

anyone who disagrees wit u in person a nazi & if on the net they are /pol/ u faggots still have no ammo againt us and if any level headed person sees ur group acting dumb and spamming "LEL KAN CUMMUNISM WIRK?!" threads every half hour would understand your group and its ideals arent worth persuing, most people go here for the pursuit of knowledge on war, culture, and past mistakes or jus banter, nobody cares abt ur toilet paper shortages

>>2830836
Let's loosely define it as "didn't end in death and suffering for the people under it's rule" and go from there

>>2830853

Revolutions contain the enormous danger of devolving into death, destruction and autocracy.

That these dangers are inherent to revolution (which is the vehicle of Communism) rather than a system of socialized income is something I strongly suspect but haven't the historical knowledge to really argue.

The reasons why the various communist revolutions failed (in the sense that they failed to perpetuate or establish forms of government based on Communist ideals) is, I suspect, a very complicated question. At least it's much more interesting if you set aside that extremely cheap, canned argument about "muh human nature."

>>2828463

that's a badass poster imo
inaccurate but badass :^3

I'd say it's working to improve the circumstances of people living in Chiapas and Rojava right now. So yes, I'd say socialism does work.

It's a shitty system since the gorvenment represent the mass, it must have absolute power and thus lead to absolute corruption. It is an other version of feudalism.

>>2831171
Not quite.

No one defending communism at this thread currently lives (and probably, ever lived) in a communist country.

Really makes you think.

>>2831199
No Communist country has ever achieved communism however.

> Wow, Mao & Stalin are proving Marxism is practical, can't wait for the rest of the world to join the revolution
> Failures are exposed
> Mao & Stalin did nothing wrong
> They were revolutionaries you are just repeating lies by Imperialist Capitalists
> Mao & Stalin weren't real Marxists though
> Communism has never been tried

Commies are so confusing. How many communists even know that when Communism was exposed 1/3 quit, 1/3 went underground & the dominant 1/3 settled for a capitalist welfare state & gradualism?

I wonder how connected all these reddit commies are to the actual marxists of the world that have been advancing their goals slowly in the shadows the last 50 years.

>>2831375
>when you list the opinions of different leftist groups

wow look you've demonstrated that the left wing is ideologically diverse

bravo

>>2829190
Feels like it sometimes. This board is shit now between this and the daily racism debates.

>>2831384
and? It's fucking embaressing for the movement.

>>2831411
Imagine how it is for us being most of the time within a majority that rejects us. Accept that you are going to have to put up with different opinions.

>>2831504
What the fuck are you going on about?

>>2828339
>ctrl+f
>yugoslavia
>no results

Worked pretty well there, until everyone chimped out over ethnicity and religion and tore the country apart.

Prior to that the commies did a tremendous job in stamping out illiteracy, promoting industry, encouraging employment, increasing urbanization, etc.

Turned an illiterate rural shithole into something resembling first world.

Of course, that's because Tito was pragmatic and took what he liked from both sides (there was small-scale private industry, for example)

>>2829997
>Your place in Capitalism is decided by which family you are born in. If you believe the infrastructure of power(economy) isn't owned/inherited privately, you must be quite deluded.

I don't know what shithole country you come from where capitalism has been wholesale replaced with Crony Kikeism, but I assure social mobility in the United States is more than alive. More than half of all people in the United States will spend at least one year of their life in the top tenth percentile.

>>2831782
You're right about Tito's pragmatism but it still has some of the usual problems , like the success of your career being down to pleasing the Unions/Bureaus/Government Agents rather than merit or voluntary market interactions.

>>2831879
>muh bootstraps

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/07/america-social-mobility-parents-income/399311/

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>>2828339
IT HAS NEVER BEEN TRIED :-DD

>>2828463
>jew nose on uncle sam
kek

>>2828463
Wait, but isn't the Chupacabra supposed to be Mexican?

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>>2828339
No communist society has existed, but governments led by groups of communists have been responsible for a lot and a lot of bad.

The Soviet Union and Communist China, the two largest and most important communist countries, made some really impressive quality-of-life improvements through industrialization, fought off any influence of foreign imperialism, and in the long term abolished abject poverty in their countries. Granted, this came with a great human cost that many of today's socialists have not properly acknowledged. So much of what happened under Mao, Stalin, and even Lenin is completely unacceptable. Leaving millions to starve from botched agricultural policies isn't rectified by giving your citizens benefits like free healthcare and education.

And these benefits aren't communism. Communism necessitates a revolutionary change in labor relations, in which production is socialized (not run by a cabal of politicians) and not beholden to the whims of the market. Under communism, there must be no commodities, because goods are to produced for their own sake rather than for exchange.

Communism can't be viable until a substantial portion of the first world and the third have rejected private ownership. As a pre-industrial society cut off from the rest of the world, the Soviet Union never had much hope of leading any global push to communism.

>>2831782
>until everyone chimped out
Shows how much you know. Stick to memes kiddo.
The economic downturn lead to mounting tensions and politicians turned to "muh nation" to mask their incompetence from the public eye.
Turns out you can't run your economy on foreign debt and donations from guest workers in west Germany. Yugoslavia solved unemployment by sending people to work in west Germany, and unemployment was still sky high.
A testament to this is seen today. These republics, for the most part, haven't reformed. Even today, 30% of income in Bosnia is donations from relatives from abroad.
These people are not stupid, they can achieve great things, there are amazing success stories, but their governments have fucked them, and a lot of them are too indoctrinated to realize it.

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It never worked and never will, because:
A) Marx was a lazy jobless idiot who never worked a day in his life and had exactly zero idea how economy, trade and goverment work
B) Economy planning Is fucking retarded
C) "equality" between people can't ever be achieved as people are simply not equal
D) People like to have private property and aren't exactly happy to give all they just because "muh poor comrades"

Seriously, I hope all of you defending communism Are being ironic.

t. Someone who's country was occupied by Soviet soldiers for 20 years just because we wanted to get rid of communism

>>2832769
A. He worked as a reporter, but why is this relevant? When every other major philosopher or economist is put to this test, they also fail.

B. Marxism does not necessitate economic planning.

C. Obviously human beings are different. Instead of cresting differences through material hierarchy, let's establish a freer society in which these differences can manifest themselves naturally. It's a human tragedy that so many potentially great artists and scientists are languishing in a poverty which that will never escape.

D. People like to have slaves as well. The feelings of the ruling class are irrelevant concerning a behavior that hurts the rest of us. If we redistribute the world's wealth, a few hundred billionaires will now live like normal, upper middle class people. What a tragedy.

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>>2830040

>what the fuck is free markets.

Something Deng has been smart enough to avoid.

>>2829264
tell us more

http://www.erin.utoronto.ca/~w3rbday/pol309y/Gerald%20Cohen,%20Why%20Not%20Socialism.pdf

nope

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>>2831199
You tried, really hard.
And failed.

Society can't function without socialism. This is a fact.

it rapidly developed old agrarian societies and economies to the point where such country put the first man in space

it did its purpose, on to the next chapter of humanity

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>>2835186
socialism isn't anything the government does

>>2828339
Thomas Sankara and Tito did pretty. Cuba's doing pretty well too. Cuba has more doctors than any other per capita. Compare it to back to when it was the U.S.'s bitch before being liberated by Castro. Socialism also dramatically increases literacy rates and education.

>>2829119
Capitalism has killed far more people than Communism you fucking Mong. Millions of people starve every year even though we have more than enough food to feed everybody. Tens of thousands of people die in The U.S. every year because they don't have health insurance. Also add all the imperialistic wars on top of that. Over a million killed in Vietnam. 400,000 in Iraq, etc.

Also it's funny that the strawman in your pic has a shirt that says "Proud Maoist" but your fake quote has him saying that Mao wasn't a real communist. Do some fucking research you classcuck. (Maoists are cancer though)

>>2835285
THIS IS WHAT TANKIES ACTUALLY BELIEVE

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>>2835315
>caps lock

"Death solves all problems - no man, no problem." - Joseph Stalin

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Communism BTFO!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN3z3eSVG7A

>>2828463
Pretty phallic image .

>>2828703
How can it be tried when it's not possible?

>>2828395
Russia was industrialized when the revolution started before the bolshevik revolution happened


>>2832938
by further implementing state capitalism Deng did improve China from the more strict socialist dictatorship, the nation did how ever grow slower than Taiwan despite having the largest reserves of any kind of precious metals

>>2833567
Norway isn't a communist country or a socialist state, the nordic model has some far reaches for the state but it has been getting more and more free market oriented since the 70' s

>>2835246
they got a bunch of kidnapped nazis to build a rocket for them, the honors should go to nazism

>>2829057
>they fucking firebomb the DNC in North Carolina
>Mass assault the Trump rally in Cincinnati
>So bringing in the riot police is now a police state
And this is why they lost

>>2838443
Russia was industrialized in 1914? Really? It didn't industrialize untill Stalin, it was one step up from a full feudal state in 1914, with massive swathes of it useless backwater turnip farmers.

>>2838443
>but it has been getting more and more free market oriented since the 70' s
Joda, Kjartan, Joda.
So: Not be choice, merely by the proxy of Soviet slowly collapsing. And AP not doing proper generation transition, meaning there was a eventual unrest from second generation aristocrats in the party doing shit policies from reality disconnect.

In the end:
Norway is pretty Communist, but like it was with Tito's Yugoslavia: You don't go full communist, because it turns out that as fucking bad idea, so 75% commie is fine.
I just find it funny that Norway are more Commie than Sweden, and Sweden is more Commie than Denmark. And Yugoslavia would be more commie than Norway.

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What do you mean by "worked"
The entire point of communism is to fix the contradictions of capitalism (alienation, exploitation of workers, defetishization of exchange, etc.)
By asking if communism has worked is implying that the capitalist world we live in is stable and can solve its own contradictions.

>>2829425
>Theyre the most resource rich country in the world
Are you stupid

>>2829479
I have lived all my years and never knew that was a piece remover.

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>>2829529
>Source on Rusia having fences to keep people in?

>>2832930
You're implying that the rich would stay and let their wealth be stolen from them. That is how you get a massive brain and economic drain.

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>>2832148

>The Atlantic

Next time try not to post a link from a website with an obvious left-wing agenda.

>>2835285

>Capitalism has killed far more people than Communism you fucking Mong. Millions of people starve every year even though we have more than enough food to feed everybody. Tens of thousands of people die in The U.S. every year because they don't have health insurance. Also add all the imperialistic wars on top of that. Over a million killed in Vietnam. 400,000 in Iraq, etc.

This is the logical fallacy that commies love to push. People are not entitled to food nor are they entitled to healthcare. The fact that people die because of them is not a symptom of capitalism because both issues are universal and they exist in every single system. The rest of the horseshit you regurgitated are also not unique to capitalism.

>>2841731
>Trust me guys the American Dream is real and still alive
>W-What's that? All evidence points to social mobility being very low in America, lower than many "socialist" countries.
>mmmmmmmmmmm Ignore that thats just mmmmmmm left-wing propaganda. Y-Yes propaganda, You heard me,move along, nothing to see here. Did you hear Walmart is having a sale on tendies?

>>2841893
folks aren't entitled to not be shot. As such, I fail to see how communism killed anyone.

>>2841950

Shitty strawman. Try again.

>>2841985
Could you perhaps define the term "strawman"?

>>2841931

>"evidence" is blog-tier writing with a single source
>see guyz Murrica is unfair

The American Dream is alive and well, the issue isn't that there exists barriers to social mobility, that's always been there, the issue is that the current generation is full of entitled babies who think they deserve success. No, a Masters in Lesbian Dance Theory does not entitle you to a six figure salary.

>>2828339
Heт.

>>2828339
Cuba isn't bad. I have been there. It's just poor as fuck, but they have adequate food and live into their 70s. If the embargo were lifted, it would be the best Caribbean country.

>>2842043
Lets hope that embargo isn't listen then

>>2828339
look up one successful FULLY communist societies (China doesn't count, it has a lot of capitalist policies)

protip: you cant

>>2842043
>if embargo were lifted
Venezuela has not been embargoed yet they shit poor just because they took a chapter of the Castro's economics book

The embargo has nothing to do with latin american socialism's shitty way of management

>>2828339
No and it never will, high bureaucratic burden that require permanent competent agents to work for the state and enforce policies that aren't liked by the populace will always cause lack of Meritocracy because the populace will grow skeptical and unwilling to replace bureaucracy in a cooperative manner causing in return the bureaucracy to become unwilling to themselves be replaced, leading to corruption.
This is more of a hierarchical problem than a communism/capitalism problem, disloyal nobles in term give you now chance to replace your higher vassals because they'd be even more unsympathetic to you goals that the current corrupt fucks you have as subordinates.
Communism in it's early stages cause an unsympathetic population because it robs them of comfort and good that they deem unnecessary to the higher and middle class, end result is that you either hire low class loyal retards, disgruntled disloyal Middle-upper class or keep you shitty ideologically indoctrinated retards from the revolution who are VERY corrupt.
For short if your whole idea of a system is to fuck the Elite and then think you'll be fine without them, then you're wrong.
Communism start "working" somewhat after a whole generation has passed and even then still plutocracy and corruption would have been so rampant in the first generation that it could stay or even get worse by the time the generation of "new middle class" "Elite" Come out of the communist schools and may or may not rise up to the task competently and with their fathers goals, or simply oppose the regime now because they're part of the Elite.

>>2841529
Surprisingly great post

>>2841730
In that case, we imprison them. Like all other thieves.

>>2841893
Why aren't people entitled to food and healthcare? If we presuppose people are entitled to life, these factors necessary to sustain life must also be provided.

If we don't presuppose people are entitled to life, then we're past the point of argumentation.

>>2842007
>No a Masters in Lesbian Dance Theory does not entitle you to a six figure salary.
What's with this constant strawmaning about meme degrees? Millennials with "respectable" degrees and good paying jobs are still basically priced out of buying a house or even new cars as a generation.

>>2842128
I can't think of any successful society desu.

Every society is either a shithole or predicated on the shittiness of other places.

No human society has ever been both comfortable and sustainable.

>>2829213
This. Sharing brotherly your belongings only works among... brothers. It is bound to fail when you are forced to share, not out of love and compassion, to thousands (or millions) of strangers who wouldn't give you the time of day.

>>2842746

People are not entitled to life, what they are entitled to is the ability to earn their life. Whether a person rises or falls is entirely up to them; sacrifice is necessary to bargain with the future but unfortunately most people don't want to do that.

>>2842751

Where do you live where this is the case? That would only be true if you lived in an area with a high cost of living like a major metropolis like NYC or LA.

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>>2829213
Kropotkin pls.

>>2842906
That's incorrect. A person's own life is contingent on the actions of others and on nature itself, therefore there is no "entitlement" to earn one's life in your view. A right to one's own life must be guaranteed in the first place to even be able to earn it.

>>2843252

You're wrong. The human spirit is far more resilient than you think. Yes other people and environment affect a person's quality of life but at the end of the day whether they live or die depends wholly on them. If life is completely dependent on external factors then why does life thrive and exist in famine, poverty, and war-torn countries? Their living situation might not be to the standards of the West but they found ways to cope and survive, they earn their lives every single day

>>2829213
This, although the material crudeness of hunter-gatherer communism necessitates that it be nasty, brutish, and short.

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>>2828339

I don't understand how anybody could be retarded enough to support communism.

>Dude, let's structure the entire economy around a system where nobody is allow to buy or sell anything

>>2846228

It's an ideology that prays on the naive and weak-minded.

Communism is the ultimate sour-grape philosophy concocted by a man who couldn't even handle his own personal finances. If you've failed at participating in a capitalist system, you become a communist.

>>2832448
>I don't know the history of my own country
Sure thing random American anon.

The economic downturn was being reversed by Ante's reforms, and with a few more years of not-war and republics' cooperation he could have achieved quite a bit.

And I fail to see how an economic downturn invalidates 40 years of remarkable development - by your logic capitalism failed in the 1970s because of the OPEC crisis which caused massive structural issues like stagflation.

>these people can achieve great things
Tbh I strongly doubt that. Literally every form of government we've tried has failed, because the majority are lazy assholes who don't give a lick about anyone and anything, and everyone's a selfish prick.

Monarchies turned into dictatorships, patriotic fronts into fascist puppets, socialism into "lol who cares I'll get paid anyway", capitalism into "let's see how little I can pay my unreported workers before they commit suicide", democracy into nepotistic incompetence.

At one point you have to realize it's not everyone else, we're just shit.

I blame the Turks, that always works.

>>2829110
>le stoopid workers meme

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>>2828339
Totalitarian nationalism?

Largest nation in the world, defeated one of the most vicious military forces ever seen, and was one of only two global superpowers, retaining that position for half a century all while nearly the entire rest of the world tried to bring it down... and didn't really start falling apart until the government internally started dismantling Stalinism.

Yeah, worked pretty great. (I mean, yeah, also evil as fuck - but sometimes evil is effective, that's what makes it so tempting.)

As for communism, well... It worked on a small scale for Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, and other IT startups, but it'd never work on a larger scale, which is why they all abandon their worker owned coops at some point, and no one's been stupid enough to try it on such a scale.

>>2829434
>He pointed out that all this stemmed from their Marxism and Communism etc etc
Yet the Holodomor only happened once, and famines of that severity and cause only happened in Russia.

>>2831199
Actually a lot of former Eastern Bloc residents are nostalgic for the old days. Right wingers just pretend like they don't exist.

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>>2828339
it has never been tried

>>2846939

>Largest nation in the world, defeated one of the most vicious military forces ever seen

All the while completely dependent on support provided by the Lend-Lease Act to do it

> and was one of only two global superpowers, retaining that position for half a century all while nearly the entire rest of the world tried to bring it down

The West could have easily brought the USSR down by simply stopping the food aids that the USSR was completely dependent on.

> and didn't really start falling apart until the government internally started dismantling Stalinism.

For a government to fall apart it must mean that it was working in the first place.

Communism is shit, if you wanted to run an effective government there are actually means of doing so like Legalism.

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>>2841893

>>2832162
White people are stereotypically depicted as having large noses by Asians.

It's like how racist caricatures of Asians from the West emphasize the eyes.

>>2846228
Why should the "buying and selling" step be necessary?

Why must production be beholden to the whims of the market, rather than to human needs?

>>2847203

>Why should the "buying and selling" step be necessary?

Because exchange is fundamental to human interaction.

>Why must production be beholden to the whims of the market, rather than to human needs?

What do you think the market is? It's the collective force of human wants and needs.

>>2841893
but people are apparently entitled to private property

>>2847243

The only thing a person is entitled to is what they can defend. If you a person can't defend their property then they deserved to lose it. People understand this on a fundamental level, this is why polities form out of shared interest and mutual defense.

>>2847300
but you realize healthcare and the distribution of food is part off that mutual defence since it ensures that you or your children wouldn't starve to death if you hit rock bottom?

>>2847300
>a person can't defend their property then they deserved to lose it

this is what gypsies unironically believe, are you a gypsy?

>>2833567
>>2840564
We're by no means socialist. We have one of the freest markets and ease of doing bussiness in the world. It's incredibly effective capitalism with large taxes

>>2847537

Polities are composed of many different groups and people, some of them provide food and healthcare out charity and goodwill. It's the prerogative of these private organizations to provide these services but society as whole has no obligation to establish institutions and mandate laws requiring people to charity.

>>2828339
Long-term, the Han.
Short-term, Yugoslavia, although Yugoslavia fell apart due to reasons that aren't monetary in their origin.

>>2846228
>Barter
>Means of production
Sorry anon, one does not imply the other

>>2847701
We where one suppression in the 50s away from being couped.
AP was 95% communist until the generation change happened somewhere in the late 60s.
Sectors such as agriculture is showing extreme signs of flat state production, which has been somewhat beneficial even if state corporations such as Tine wants to endanger its own privileged position over no real gain.

>>2841893
>people are not entitled to food
>people are not entitled to healtcare
You people make me fucking sick

>>2849669

>wah I want people to take care of me for absolutely nothing

This is what a child sounds like

>>2849724
I want to take care of people so I can live in a society where I don't have to fear crime or my fellow members of it are suffering.

I make a pretty decent salary and am more than able to support myself, I would however like to see more of it going back to society (and yes, I do give to charity and vote for a party that would seek to increase taxation dramatically).

>>2847300
So basically capitalism can't exists in a rational society, because there's no way a small group of people can defend an international company against the better interest of the workers; at least without some serious memetics going on. Have you ever seen a wolf pack owning territory on another continent?

>>2849669
>People are entitled to healthcare
This fat fuck has been eating himself into thousands in medical expenses on the taxpayer's dime, along with abusing the system to feed his pill habit. Why should he be entitled to the fruits of other people's labors? He doesn't contribute anything to society and wastes medical resources because he values pizza over life.

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>>2849669
>People are entitled to healthcare
This fat fuck has been eating himself into thousands in medical expenses on the taxpayer's dime, along with abusing the system to feed his pill habit. Why should he be entitled to the fruits of other people's labors? He doesn't contribute anything to society and wastes medical resources because he values pizza over life.
Forgot pic.

>>2850042
Because it's nicer to live in a country where people are taken care of.
Economic equality, social mobility and a dignified life (as far as possible) makes for a comfy society.

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>>2850320
>People should be forced to support narcissistic deadbeats because it's comfy

>>2847203

>Why should the "buying and selling" step be necessary?

Because literally the entire basis of the economy is people buying and selling shit. The entire modern world is fueled by these transactions.

>>2847239
>Because exchange is fundamental to human interaction.
please tell me you're only ironically memeing.

>>2850042
>Why should he be entitled to the fruits of other people's labors?
Because its a fallancy.
The core of the argument assumes the person:
1. Is benefiting from hurting himself
2. And that the person is capable of straining the system
Since neither of those statements are true, its not particularly relevant.

>>2828339
Have you ever worked?

>>2847239
Exchange isn't buying and selling. Buying and selling requires a system of currency, by whose value goods are assigned.

Exchange can happen, as was the norm until the 17th century, through trade without the need for an exchange value. When an exchange value is created, production is now beholden to its whims.

>>2849914

Life is suffering, it is fundamental to the human experience. You will never get rid of it and think that you can is dangerous utopian thinking. If you want to help the world then go ahead donate to charity and work at soup kitchen but society itself has no obligation to support those who aren't willing to support themselves.

>used to like the idea of communism
>then when I was 17 I realised, why the fuck would my parents leave the Soviet Union in the 80s, never thinking of going back, if it was so good

>>2850376
Right, and the entire purpose of Marxism is to critique the assumption that such a world is the only possible option.

Why should the world be organized around greed rather than social good?

>>2850432

Please tell me you're older than 12

>>2851668

You're getting lost in the Marxian semantics. All services and products have value whether they be arbitrary or set, currency is merely the abstract representation of the value of a service. Currency is thrown in to the mix because it is the easiest way of establishing value and therefore making exchanges much easier to facilitate.

>>2851743

>Why should the world be organized around greed rather than social good?

Social good is a completely abstract concept that's all too easily abused. No, the world is not organized around greed, that's the cynical viewpoint, but rather self-interest.

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>>2828463
>We are just going to become very free market and create a lot of billionaires, we are still communists and fighting evil bourgeoisie, i-swear g-guys.

>>2828339
>Has it ever worked?
Bolshevism arguably worked from 1919 to 1991.

>>2828339
>Give gibs.
>Gibs run out
>???

>>2853813

It worked so well they had to build a wall with barbed wire and machine guns to stop people from leaving.

>>2854414
West Germany had access to the entire resource wealth of the third world. It's little wonder their standard of living was more comfortable.

>>2854439

Yeah, that's the magic of free trade. The USSR could have done the exact same thing if they weren't married to an ideology that is explicitly anti-trade.

>>2830113
>Why do you hipsters think that the world we live in is ''true'' capitalism and that the communism that was back then wasn't ''true communism''?
Because:
>But then again, there were artists in the communistic states that wanted to be so and not work in a factory.

>>2854447
anti-slavery*

>>2854463
>citizen want to escape because they feel and are held back by wire and gun
>anti-slavery
Everyone was a slave, everyone had equal rights because no one had any.

>>2854463

>Gulags aren't slavery

>>2846228
>>2847203
>>2847239
>>2850376
>>2851668
>>2851749
Just so people in this thread know, Marx didn't oppose the idea of currency but instead the idea of money as a value unto itself.

He suggests in his Critique of the Gotha program that exchange WOULD happen under communism, but through a form of currency pegged directly to labor. If you perform the equivalent of eight hours' work, your are given a voucher for that much labor-time.

Marx and Kropotkin envisioned that there would be publicly-owned stores and warehouses where you'd trade your labor vouchers for goods or services.

I wish people actually read Marx. Anticommunists generally have a shitty understanding of his theory and self-described communists are rarely any better.

>>2855044
How's that kind of a voucher any different from money?

>>2855044

So basically reinvent the wheel and call it something else?

>I wish people actually read Marx. Anticommunists generally have a shitty understanding of his theory and self-described communists are rarely any better.

I have read Marx but I don't need to read the entirety of his books to realize that his theories are shit, just like how I don't need to see the entirety of a movie to realize that it's shit when I can tell that it's terrible just from the previews and the first 5 minutes.

It worked, very briefly, in the anarchist-communist territories of Aragon and Catalonia from 1936 to 1939.

The more science, humanities, technology and infrastructure progress, the more likely and the more necessary it becomes to advocate and establish communism. Capitalism has its place in human history for quickly advancing progress and profit, but the more it grows and the more it exploits the Earth and mankind, the more likely and necessary it becomes to abolish it.

>>2829260
>rich need poverty to coexist with them
IS wealth as simple as a scale where all of the money is on one side only to leave the rest of the scale empty????????? Wealth is not static. Every innovation that has sprung from free market capitalists has only sought out to help the middle class and to aid the poor. Socialism aims to make everyone poor as fuck. Free markets have brought more people out of poverty than socialism ever has.

It worked literally every time it was tried, resulting in unprecedented advances in healthcare, education, and living standards for the nations who tried it.

Capitalists were butthurt that countries were developing without their "aid", so they launched a campaign of fake news and disinformation targeting communism.

Because most people don't have critical thinking skills, they accept the narrative without question. Literally makes me LMAO to think there are people who actually believe Stalin murdered 60 million people, that Mao murdered 80 million.

Answer this Shlomo: if communism doesn't work, why do most people who experience it have a positive opinion? Why do most people in Eastern Europe feel they lived better before (((capitalism)))?

Actually, are anti-communists are almost exclusively people who have never lived in a communist society and have never even talked with someone who has. Most have never even left their country of birth.

>>2855414
Ye ok but Authoritarianism is shit

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>>2855420

>Between the poverty stricken year of 1924, when Lenin died, and the relatively abundant year of 1940, the cultivated area of USSR expanded by 74 percent; grain crops increased 11 percent; coal production was multiplied by 10; steel output by 18; engineering and metal industries by 150; total national income by 10; industrial output by 24; annual capital investment by 57. During the First Five-year Plan, 51 billion rubles were invested; during the Second, 114; and during the Third, 192. Factory and office workers grew from 7,300,000 to 30,800,000 and school and college students from 7,900,000 to 36,600,000. Between 1913 and 1940, oil production increased from nine to 35 million tons; coal from 29 to 164; pig iron from 4 to 15; steel from 4 to 18; machine tools from 1000 to 48,000 units, tractors from 0 to over 500,000; harvestor combines from 0 to 153,500; electrical power output from two billion kWh to 50 billion; and the value of industrial output from 11 billion rubles to more than 100 billion by 1938. If the estimated volume of total industrial production in 1913 be taken as 100, the corresponding indices for 1938 are 93.2 for France; 113.3 for England, 120 United States; 131.6 for Germany, and 908.8 for the Soviet Union.

Schuman, Frederick L. Soviet Politics. New York: A.A. Knopf, 1946, p. 212

>literal 900% economic growth
>shit

It's definitely shit for international bankers, who are still furious that they didn't get a cut.

It wasn't shit for hundreds of millions of Soviet citizens, who saw a dramatic increase in life expectancy, literacy, and quality of life due to industrialization and modernization.

>>2855434
Ye ok but Stalin was an asshole and had several millions of people killed.

>>2855434
>this kills the capitalism apologist

>>2855414

>It worked literally every time it was tried, resulting in unprecedented advances in healthcare, education, and living standards for the nations who tried it.

I don't see how failing to feed your country is considered a success. Almost every single communist nation was completely dependent on foreign economic aid from developed countries to maintain their existence. The USSR despite having control of Ukraine and some of the most arable farmlands in Europe suffered from food shortages throughout its entire existence and never resolved it.

>if communism doesn't work, why do most people who experience it have a positive opinion? Why do most people in Eastern Europe feel they lived better before (((capitalism)))?

What world do you live in? Most of the Eastern Europeans I've met absolutely hate communism, the only ones who think of it fondly are the old folks who are pissed off that the gibs are gone and the ivory tower intelligentsia who are completely full of themselves.

>>2828339

>rapid industialisation
>rapidly developed infrastructure
>90%+ literacy in two generations
>drastic decrease in infant mortality
>serious increase in living standards for the majority from feudal levels to modern in decades
>universal helthcare
>universal free education
>the fucking space program
>CHINA

it worked just fine, it collapsed in most parts cause history, but it actualy worked, wasnt pretty, or nice, or benign in the least, but it sure as all fucks worked

I understand why people want communism, but I'm super fucking selfish and want my own property.

Also communism doesn't produce good vidya from what I've seen, so that's a even bigger deal breaker.

>>2855568

how do you define 'my own property'?

clothes?
a laptop?
a car?
a house?
a piece of land?

>>2855582
Land and House, I guess.

>>2855568
Eh, tetris is pretty good.

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>>2855434

>Very little knowledge of the USSR in the West
>Makes assumptions based on Russian survey
>900% industrial production in the span of 14 years

I had a good laugh.

>>2855434
>Schuman, Frederick L.
Schuman's book Soviet Politics at Home and Abroad was criticised by the writer Dwight Macdonald as "a neo-Stalinist survey, that is, its author admits practically everything and justifies it in turgid surges of clotted prose as necessary and even praise-worthy".[4] However, Marshall D. Shulman, the Columbia University professor who was the Carter Administration's leading expert on the Soviet Union, recalled using Dr. Schuman's book, Soviet Politics, at Home and Abroad for a class he taught at City College of New York in the late 1940s.

>Commie sympathiser taking soviet statistics at face value

Seems legit.

>>2855592
Tetris is ok but not the best.
Honestly I'm not fond of the whole "take the means of production" thing, but I thibk think corporations should be reigned in and shit like that. I'm much more of a Mixed Economy type person.

>>2855590

how much land is owned by the american people? the population of the US, how much of the land, especially arrable farmland, is actualy owned by private individuals, ordinary citisens, as in percentage?

how much living space in the US is actualy owned by citisens after things like mortgages and loans are taken into accout, how much of their howsing is actualy theirs and how much is rent, debt and kredit?

>>2828339
Social democracy has been proven to work but anything left of it is cancer

>>2855625
For your first question, I think this link answers
http://www.summitpost.org/public-and-private-land-percentages-by-us-states/186111

For the second, cannot find data.

>>2828339
Yes, what other reason would professors preach marxism?

>>2855649

but under private do they also mean owned by firms and companies? large capital

>>2855599
So if all that is fake, explain how the USSR outproduced Germany during WW2 even when most industrial regions were occupied? Tsarist Russia ran out of shells a week into WW1. How did the USSR become a superpower, if there was no successful industrialization?

>>2855660

Apparently the Lend-Lease Act didn't happen which gave the USSR all the necessary support and material needed to beat the Germans. Apparently it wasn't that huge influx of foreign aid that gave another 40 years of life to a dying system.

>>2855657
>Ideological possession literally isn't a thing in my world

There's no reason to expect people to change their mind where ideology is concerned.

>>2855682
Lmao

>>2855582
land, house, possibly the car
basically anything you can use to exploit people for profit over

>pipe dreams general

>>2855659
Good point. I'd assume so, but also assume that they'd combine the amount of non business property.

If I'm honest, although I'm conservative, I'm pro socialism. Don't know how to explain it. Used to be communist when I was younger, but then I shifted to moderate right wing.

>>2855660
So a Feudal state ran out of economic manpower during WW1, fighting a strong industrial state?
No shit
Thats the curse of industrialization, its simply better.

>>2855100
If Marx was shit, why did his writing leave an incalculable impact on economics, social science, and human history?

>>2855420
Who said anything about authoritarianism?

>>2857318

His writings are calculable with regards to their impact on the world as evidence of all the failed states born of his writings.

Marx's legacy, much like himself, is failure. But his ideology, communism, is meme that refuses to die because the intelligentsia won't allow it as the ideology panders to their arrogance, hubris and thirst for power.

>>2846985
Some people are nostalgic for THE BRIGHT FUTURE, and GREAT PROPAGANDA.
Americans are sorta bitter about winning the cold war for the same reason, since it ended the internal social strife to beat the Soviet Union.

>>2846985
It's called old people being nostalgic for the time when they were young.

How much of the "communism fails" is just humans being unequal and Western Europeans being superior at everything they do so Capitalism "works" not because it's inherently better but because Western Europeans can make any system they use work well?
Basically, if the West were Communists and had the same distribution of resources as they did in reality and Russia/China was Capitalist but had the same lack of resources, would Russia and China still be shitholes?

>>2828339
>communism
>working government
Pick one

>>2832382
only sensible person itt

>>2857325
The post to which I replied mentioned Stalin and Mao, who were both authoritarian or totalitarian maniacs.

>>2832382
Very good post
>Communism can't be viable until a substantial portion of the first world and the third have rejected private ownership.
How is that a requirement and not a consequence? A communist society and its emergence depend on a multitude of factors, of which rejection and then abolition of private property are only one.

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>>2858351
Yes and no
Russia being capitalist would be horrid throughout. There would still be fuedal practices and workers would be screwed
>tfw no tankies tho

China would benefit, but not because they were capitalist but because Europe would be communist. A communist Europe wouldn't imperialize china. However, Chinese royalty might not be able to industrize the country.
>tfw no third worlders