Can atheists even compete?

>>2818011
WLC is a compromiser who likes to excise portions of the bible to help convince atheists that "a god" (read: not the Christian God) exists

>>2818021
well you gotta start somewhere

baby steps anon

>>2818032
WLC is correct that if Jesus rose from the dead then Christianity is true, however what he fails to realize is that if Jesus rose from the dead ALL of Christianity is true. He should point that out instead of offering people to abandon inerrancy.

>>2818032
this


atheists judge themselves to be smarter than religious people, when they chose the easy path
Most atheists didn't study a chapter of the bible, they mosly watch famous atheists on youtube and go out mocking religion

William Lane Craig is the perfect example that when an intelligent, studied theist fights an atheist, the latter can't move in their arguments because every single one is debunked by wlc
Being a theist and a christian is much more difficult than assuming there is no God, because it requires a lot of research, deep reflections, philosophy and many other factors that will lead you to the ultimate conclusion

atheist just go for the: "i don't see, i don't believe"

>>2818011
The only worthwhile thing WLC has done in his career as a philosopher is some minor contributions to philosophy of time. He is quite small time in contemporary philosophy.

Neither Hitchens nor Dawkins are philosophers, so they are quite irrelevant here, but some people love to bring up youtube debates that have no significance in academia.

>>2818062
>Most atheists didn't study a chapter of the bible, they mosly watch famous atheists on youtube and go out mocking religion

No, most atheist are simply indifferent to religion and are usually at least nominally part of a religious group.

t. """christian""" that attends mass twice a year

Any athiest who will debate in defense of athiesm is bound to be unintelligent.

The entire purpose of athiesm is to free a person from the responsibilities of organized religion; not spend more effort arguing about it.

>>2818094
Catholics aren't Christian

>>2818011
>He makes Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins look like children trying to build a valid argument.

So you are saying that the non philosophers look stupid when discussing philosophy with philosophers?

Any good debates between him and other philosophers?

>>2818094
Get out of my Church, fucker. Go out into the darkness.

>>2818196
I'm just telling it like it is, the vast majority of atheists aren't ridiculous trench coat wearing caricatures you seem to picture in your heads, it's most likely your fellow church goer that just goes through the motions out of respect for tradition or just simple conformity.

>>2818094
and they didn't study anything about theology or religion

they go for the simple easiest path, which will ultimately lead them to destruction and doomation

>>2818011
>You cannot remain an atheist after watching a debate with William Lane Craig.

I did ama

>>2818196
>Get out of my Church, fucker. Go out into the darkness.

Your attitude is exactly the kind of thing that makes Christians so easy to pick on. It's like you never cared about anything Jesus said.

>>2818223
Catholics aren't Christian

>yfw literal fedora btfo wlc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1c_GlAjvy4

>>2818189
>>2818228
french are not european

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>>2818011

>William Lane Craig

People like this idiot is why the atheist community became as outspoken as it did. Nobody has a problem with the calm and collected Christian guy that goes, "Well, I can't prove this, and it wasn't meant to be proven, but I'm going to have faith on this one, and if you don't that's fine, because I still consider you my brother in Christ even if you don't."

Instead we get,

>SCIENTISTS ARE ALL LIARS!!!
>NOTHING IS STABLE IN SCIENCE!!!!
>MUH QUANTUM MECHANICS!!
>GOD CAN BE PROVED BY REASON ALONE!!!

What makes them cancerous is that they have the same outlook as the atheists they're debating (that is, they're staunch rational materialists) yet they choose to get autistic over "proving" God's existence and imposing that "truth" on every other person.

Nietzsche wasn't wrong when he said these Christians are the ones that killed God--hardly any atheist or deist. They're the ones that are OBSESSED with the material world and/or philosophy proving their claims, instead of simply living a good and honest Christian life and inspiring people by example. They're fucking trash Christians.

>>2818011

I don't have to argue against the existence of a god any more than I have to argue against the existence of the tooth fairy. Arguing with people who live to argue is pointless. I'm sure there are people out there who have some really compelling arguments for a flat earth. It doesn't matter because literally everything we can prove says that's retarded and only what can be proven really matters.

>>2818247
This.

William Lane Craig is an imbecile who's semi-good at wordplay. This doesn't make him right, it just makes him a good con-artist.

>>2818062
>most atheists didn't study a chapter of the bible

Most atheists are born in Christian households and/or are former christians you fucking mong.

>>2818339
Maybe in america retard, a country like Australia is 80% atheist and even the Christians are very "go on easter or christmas"

>>2818229
I'm a Christian and I came here to post that debate.

Although WLC could still be right, he jumps too quickly on the finite Universe model when it hasn't been conclusively proven and (as mentioned in the video) there are working models which suppose an inifite past.

Of course this leaves only one of his arguments in contention until more information is found on the subject.
On top of that, if you watch the debate Sean Carrol's positive reasons for atheism are the usual disproven diatribes of the New Atheists™.

The problem with WLC is he steps out of his field when he argues from authority to prop up the Kalam cosmological argument.

>>2818212
Nice implications you've got there.

>>2818011

>Can atheist
>American flag

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>>2818011

>>2818826
The moral objection to God is always the most retarded

>hurr God is le evil man in the sky who killd peepl
>*can't give an objective reason why anything is morally objectionable*

The denunciation of WLC in this quote only holds up if you also think the Canaanites were NOT wrong for willfully rejecting God. The only reason you think that wouldn't matter is if you thought God did not exist.
However, God is presupposed in this hypothetical else there would be no point of the story.

>>2818062
>atheists judge themselves to be smarter than religious people
I don't

>Most atheists didn't study a chapter of the bible, they mosly watch famous atheists on youtube and go out mocking religion
I've read the bible out of curiosity, but I've always been an atheist, as has everyone in my family. I don't even mock religion 99% of the time, I just simply don't care about it.

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>>2818826
>argument from outrage
>implying objective morality exist
Are atheists really this incompetent?

>>2818062
Incredibly stupid post.

>>2818339
That's only in your edgy piece of shit of a country, here in France most of the youth is atheist and nobody is as edgy as any of the reddit tier atheist l've seen on the internet

>>2818891
God is omnipotent, why can't he do the right thing for ALL of humanity to agree upon ?
Hmmph

atheism essentially forced him back into the realm of the perpetually unknown /unknowable at which point you could hypothesise any number of eventualities . he has yet to prove why it should be a single unified perfect being ahead of anything else.

also he just uses arguments from history (kant, kalam etc). no original talent

I disagree with your premise OP also this guy is only relevant in the states, nobody ever gives a shit about him in europe

>>2819038

Europe doesn't have Christian fundamentalists to the same degree that the US does.

Fundamentalists ruin fucking everything, regardless of which god they worship.

>>2819021
>God is omnipotent, why can't he do the right thing for ALL of humanity to agree upon?
man is given free will
man falls into sin
man is given the choice to listen to God or not
God does wondrous miracles for people to witness
Yet they still refuse
Because of their selfish desire to do what they want aka sin


>Hmmph
for some reason that was quite adorable

>>2818229
I don't like this mans condescending furrowed brow. I don't like how even the must mundane subjects become trendy because then you get hobbyists like this man who just adds brainless numbers to either side of an argument. For that, i too do not believe in democracy.

>>2818845
>hurr God is le evil man in the sky who killd peepl
>*can't give an objective reason why anything is morally objectionable*
Given that god and his followers aim to impose their own morality on the masses, killing people makes him an untrusthworthy hypocrite however. Which doesn't mesh well with expecting people to act on faith.

>>2819106
>god is omniscient
>god gives man free will
The implication is that god knowingly condemed man to sin.

Also
>god creates man with urges
>god expects man to deny said urges on pain eternal suffering
It follows that god is a sadist.

>>2819106
>men are selfish for wanting to do what they want
>god is unfailingly good for compelling everyone to obey his biddings on pain of hellfire
Gee god, is coherence too hard for an omnipotent being?

>>2819354
>killing people makes him an untrusthworthy hypocrite

When did God lie?
Where did God say He would never kill/aid the killing of anyone?
He didn't

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>>2819106
>man is given free will
Totally 100% unbiblical.

>>2819388
He expects other people to behave in ways he's not willing to behave. That's literally hypocrisy.

>>2819405
God never said killing was wrong. The original 'Thou shalt not kill' command was translated from the original word 'murder'.
Therefore there is just killing and unjust killing.
The seperation of the two depends on God's will. Therefore God is not a hypocrite

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>>2818062
>being a Christian is hard!
Life isn't a fucking videogame, you autistic mong. No one cares if it's "harder" or "easier".

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>>2819398
>free will is not Biblical

Try me nigga

>>2818826
he's write their's literally nothing wrong with murder

>>2818062
>Being a theist and a christian is much more difficult than assuming there is no God, because it requires a lot of research, deep reflections, philosophy and many other factors that will lead you to the ultimate conclusion

Most people are religious anon, and it's not because of deep introspection. They were simply born into a religious society and have adopted their culture's mores.

Anyways haven't watched the vid but if it's like every other American Christian vid where they try to "prove" the existence of God it seems to be missing the point. You can't prove God's existence - hence the leap of faith.

Sure you can study scripture, theology and have a good grasp of biblical history but it's silly to think one can simply invest X hours and suddenly have proof of God.

>>2819417
>The original 'Thou shalt not kill' command was translated from the original word 'murder'.
Don’t you just love it when people retroactively revise a text using modern concepts because it doesn't fit their modern theology, then claim the unrevised version was a mistranslation?

>>2819455
>retroactively revise
Are you being serious? Theologians knew the original translation since the beginning of the Church. It's only in the King James translation was the wording different. (In case it wasn't clear: no serious theologian uses the KJV as their source even if they recite KJV day by day)
also sick dubs senpai

>>2819417
>The seperation of the two depends on God's will.
If god is above the morality he forces on others, he necessarily is a hypocrite. As I said, he's not willing to play by the rules he wants to enforce. How can you have faith in someone manifestly untrustworthy? Who's to say good behaviour and faith will be rewarded if his whim can make good behaviour into bad and faith into a negative attribute?

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>>2818062
>atheists judge themselves to be smarter than religious people
actually not, but statistics judge religious people to be dumber than non religious ones.
>tfw you hit the right time line to see Christianity fade into obscurity in the West and only shitskins remain

>>2819476
How is it hypocritical to say words to the effect of "kill as I command" and then cite His killing as he wishes as evidence of contradiction.

Even if you were right on the 'can't be trusted' point, you would still be stupid to refuse to submit to a being infinitely superior to yourself.

>>2818011
>''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''proving''''''''''''''''''''''''''' the existence of god.

I think I prefer fedora-atheists to fedora-Christians.

>>2819493
>you would still be stupid to refuse to submit to a being infinitely superior to yourself
A being whose superiority we're supposed to believe in on faith. Don't you see the problem here?

>>2819499
this

>>2819515
No I don't. The merits of the arguments for God's existence are irrelevant to my point.

Hypothetically, if God exists and is also dishonest you would be unwise to upset such a powerful being. That was my point.

>>2819537
How do you even know what upsets him? If his word is not to be trusted, he might well be laughing his ass off watching over as you waste your life performing meaningless acts just to kick you down to hell after you die. All while rewarding rebels because why the fuck not?

>>2819475
You are making up nonsense. The "original translation" is thoroughly ambiguous, since the word originally meant "break into pieces" and was later extended to human killing. And it's not only in the KJV, many theologians across history have interpreted it as "kill".
The Tyndale Bible, older than the KJV, says this:
>Thou shalt not kyll.
The Latin Vulgate has this:
>non occides
where "occido" means kill, cut down, torment to death, ruin, etc., with no specification of justness.
Wycliffe's bible has this:
>Thou schalt not sle. (Thou shalt not slay.)

and so on. No pre-modern English translation, as far as I know, has anything but "kill", "slay", and synonyms of them.

>>2819564
>How do you even know what upsets him?
I would have thought it obvious that being disobeyed is not a positive feeling.

>>2818316
lol

>>2819586
An omnipotent, omniscient, immortal, omnipresent God is expected to have the same feelings and reactions as humans? Really?

>>2819566
>it's not only in the KJV
My mistake, you're correct here.

>as far as I know, has anything but "kill", "slay", and synonyms of them

The word that was used in the original Hebrew in the commandment is not used in the context of war. We can conclude that the two words are to have different definitions.

>>2819586
This: >>2819606
Also even if god reacts like us, it still leaves the fact that most people can't respect slavish obedience, and if anything bullies and sadists are only encouraged by such behaviour to further torment their victims.

>>2819606
That's right, when an almighty power commands us mortals, He doesn't actually care whether we obey or not. /s

Why would someone/thing even give a command without wanting it to be fulfilled?

>>2818011
>watch his debate with Christopher Hitchens
>crowd starts yelling and hooting while they clap
why do americans do this? it's very disrespectful

>>2819613
Maybe He wants to test whether we can think for ourselves. Maybe He’s just playing with us. Maybe he likes to see a little rebellion now and then. Maybe He issues commands without even thinking or caring about them. Maybe His sense of morality is so far beyond ours that we cannot comprehend His motives. There are a thousand possibilities.

>>2819624
It would have to be the case that *everything* He says is just to mess with us in order for total indifference to Him to be a good move.

But this scenario seems far-fetched given the lack of substance you have put forward for God's alleged dishonesty. So I take you back to the original contention: How is God a liar?

>>2819632
>So I take you back to the original contention: How is God a liar?
The original contention was 'god is a hypocrite'. Which is pretty much undeniable given he wants to enforce laws he doesn't subject himself to.

>>2819632
>How is God a liar?
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. Ezekiel 14:9

>>2819638
It turns out humanity and God are different things.
If God's will is morality itself, then God cannot commit immoral acts and therefore is not a hypocrite.

>>2818339
>projection the post

>>2819647
Hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another. God says we ought to do shit, but he ain't willing to do shit. Hence god is a hypocrite.
Morality has nothing to do with it.

>>2819657
>Given that god and his followers aim to impose their own morality on the masses, killing people makes him an untrusthworthy hypocrite however

Morality has everything to do with it given your original claim was that he violated His own morality.

>>2819663
You misunderstand me. The issue is that he doesn't subject himself to the rules he lays down (in this case christian morals), not the fact that he's immoral himself. Indeed, the very impossibility of him being immoral, due to his placing himself above his words is what makes him a hypocrite.

>>2819673
The issue is that he doesn't subject himself to... christian morals, not the fact that he's immoral himself
I would have thought those two were the same thing.

That being said I understand your point of 'He says don't do X and He does it' but He doesn't.
The original texts give two seperate words for 'kill' in The Ten Commandments and 'kill' in the context of war. There is understood to be a difference between the two actions.

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>>2818339
>implying that means you read your bible

No shit most of you come from "Christian households" but I doubt most of you came from ones that dealt with the heavy issues like how abortion is address in it. Hell that's my personal bar to anyone that claims they read the bible I throw that out there and see what they say, if it's stone faced shock that the bible has rules about abortion in it then I know they have invested in their faith as they would a TV show or video game.

>>2819422
Found the lazy atheist

His molinism is a total cop-out because his whole moral apologetic relies on libertarian free will which is neither biblical nor defensible from what we know about the brain.
On morality, when he's actually put up against a legit philosopher like Shelly Kagan, he just falls back on bullet points and flounders.

https://youtu.be/SiJnCQuPiuo

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>>2819106
>God does wondrous miracles for people to witness


eternal kek

>>2818062
just so people like this doesn't stand unopposed. I've studied christian theology for several years and I'm still an atheist. Most of their arguments are shit, even at a "hard" academic level.

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>>2819483

Statistics also suggest atheists are more likely to be autistic

>>2820307
>christians are more autistic than jews

>>2820307
>Jews
>Least autistic

We win again, goyim.

>>2818042
That is all of Christianity. Jesus is God, and He rose from the dead.

>>2820307
Autists cannot form interpersonal connections, autism implies atheism because god is literally an imaginary friend.

>>2818075
What he has done will ring in heaven for eternity.

>>2820407
You're forgetting something, aren't ya?

>>2818247
Name one scientist who has never told a lie, and let us know how you gathered that information.

Name one scientific "fact" that has not changed over the past 3500 years of written language.

Name one shred of evidence for quantum mechanics describing the known universe.

Name any other reason other than "God did it" to explain the existence of the universe.

See?

You're on the bullshit side of this, not us. We have an unalterable foundation upon which to stand: the revealed Word of God.

You? The shifting sands of mankind's opinions.

>>2820420
What do you think I left out?

>>2820240
People like you think you can brute force the mind of God.

Your failure is typical of your kind.

>>2818062
Studies show that average Athiest knows more about the Bible than the average Christian...that being said...most athiests are very ignorant of the Bible, as you say.
However, your idea that Athiesm is easy compared to being religious is just ridiculous. Christians use their faith as a crutch all the time...I live around a bunch of white trash and they use God as an excuse to not work hard and keep to their life in their trailer parks. My life didn't get any "easier" when I realized that I no longer believed in God.

>>2818826
>>2818845
>>2818891
>Not the children, for they inherit eternal life
Wow he hasn't studied his faith AT ALL. The Old Testement is about the covenant and God rewarding you with a good life, not about "eternal life."

>>2820481
>Studies show that average Athiest knows more about the Bible than the average Christian.

Not only retarded, but ridiculously retarded.

>>2820407
no, he is the son of God
he says dozens of times he'll meet his father, that the father is greater than him, etc

>>2820496
Yup. The Old and inferior Covenant dealt only in the flesh, here on earth. More flour for your mixing bowl; bumper crops; lack of mold and mildew; defeat your enemies in the field of battle; be lenders and not borrowers.

Nothing about a relationship with the living God.

Nothing about eternal life.

>>2820500

Kind begets kind.
God begets God.
Jesus saying He is the Son of God = saying He is God.

John 10
Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

>>2820428
You have a book written by people about a God that noone has ever see or heard from...blah blah blah shifting sands of mistranslation and moral relativism of societies over time blah blah blah and the fact that every Christian has their own interpretation of the bible....if they bothered to read it that is

>>2820499
what is? the fact that (In America at least) that athiests are more knowledgeable about the Bible than Christians or are you disputing my claim?

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please your jew god is an alien who has a base on the moon and owns earth after mosses betrayed earth.
fuck yahwh .
wake up.
you are a slave to the jew who sold earth to yahwh.
traitor.

>>2820538
I have 66 books written by about 40 men over a span of 1500 years that proves itself to be the inspired Word of God by virtue of fulfilled prophecy.

You have.......time and chance.

>>2820546
Both. The things of God cannot be discerned by natural man (atheists) at all. So saying they have a better understanding of the bible than people who are filled with the Holy Spirit and are taught by God Himself is ludicrous on its face.

In fact, much of the teachings of Jesus were made so that atheists COULD NOT understand them.

>>2820564
What a dick.

>reasonable faith

Why do Americans have such immense autism?

Has Craig ever gone up against an actual philosopher like Dennett or Zizek?

>>2818042
But that's stupid. Jesus rising from the dead doesn't prove Christianity. There are alternate explanations that work (e.g. it proves the existence of vampires).

>>2820557
>fulfilled prophecy
You mean prophecy about some guy establishing sect based on Judaism?

>>2820577
Heaven ain't for everyone.

>>2820582
Not in the real world, no.

>>2820583
About 30% of the bible is prophetic, and 100% of bible prophecies are exactly precisely accurate.

>>2820580
>Dennett
>Philosopher
What
Also yes, they've debated before and Dennett completely embarrassed himself. It was because of that debate that I stopped taking him seriously at all.

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>>2820557
>You have.......time and chance.

>>2820587
He's a legitimate philosopher of cognition.

Also according to you fags, Craig embarasses everyone, but the guy's a complete simpleton, so I have my doubts. The only debate of his I ever watched mostly featured him subtly strawmanning his opposition and forcing them to waste time clarifying.

>>2820585
In the real world people don't rise from the dead. Jesus rising from the dead proves only that he rose from the dead, not that any claim made about him is accurate.

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>>2820509
So all you have are interpretations against literal quotes from Jesus saying he is the son of the Lord?

brilliant
you protestants are one of a kind

>>2820598
In the real world, Jesus not only said He would rise from the dead, but did, thus proving His claim to be God.

You have a normalcy bias you need to overcome.

>>2820613
All I have is the truth straight from the mouth of God?

Yes, all I have is the truth straight from the mouth of God.

>>2820640
>In the real world,

In your book he did, there's no proof that he rose from the dead.

>Jesus not only said He would rise from the dead, but did, thus proving His claim to be God.

Did you see it, right here (did, thus) is the leap where you go from one claim to a non-sequitur. Him coming back from the dead proves exactly one thing: that he came back from the dead.

>You have a normalcy bias you need to overcome.

You need to stop being such a moron and develop higher standards of proof.

>>2820640

Jesus you're a fucking cringe lord

>>2820657
To you, there is no proof. Today.

To you, a thousand years from now, you will have had the proof for centuries.

>>2820666
satan trips so, so fitting

>>2820689

666 doesn't refer to Satan, it refers to emperor Nero, you fucking idiot

>>2820698
t. Nero

>>2818011
"The Lord made the world in seven days."
"For to God a day is like one thousand years."
"Like."
"Like a thousand years."
Could be "Like" a billion years in that case according to science.

>>2818062
>he hasn't heard of Occam's Razor

>>2820657
>empty tomb
>missing body
>solid testimonial reports he rose from the dead
>romans looking for jesus
>clavius' desertion when he saw jesus

yea no evidence at all, you might as well compare historical jesus to tinker bell


/his/ is full of morons nowadays, no wonder why western civilization is full of cucks

>>2820712
MAGA

>>2820647
Protestants are the cancer that will kill Christianity and the west.

>>2820712
xD we will bring western civilization back brother inshallah

>>2820712
>Bunch of shit written down by his followers, absolutely no proof from a third party.

Yes indeed no proof.

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>>2820714
>>2820712

>>2818062
Nietzsche, in a letter to his sister, explained that he left the path to becoming a religious official as his father had been entirely because atheism was the difficult conclusion to accept.

>>2820712
Yeah and muslims back in the day saw mohammed ride a flying donkey and allah split the moon in two. So what?

>>2820752
"And I say to you oh men of the right hand path, a King has arisen among you, he will wield the left hand with great hardship but wield it he shall. For he knows power is best held by those innocent and true or knowing and unwilling for they know the weight of such a tool."

>>2818062
>Being a theist and a christian is much more difficult than assuming there is no God
>living life knowing perfect eternal happiness is waiting for you and every injustice is going to be resolved
>difficult
pick one

>>2820773
He's conveniently conflating all atheistic systems with a complete lack of belief (though he's no doubt the same sort of shitburger that asserts that atheism is a religion) which takes no effort to sustain, ignoring the fact that maintaining a consistent philosophical system as an atheist takes considerable effort.

>>2820793
Yeah, that's probably it. To be honest, most atheists are just morons who only know shitty versions of both theistic and atheistic arguments. So often I cringe when hearing rebuttals to cosmological arguments or shitty versions of the problem of evil (please guys, stop using the logical version, the evidential is much, much better).

>>2820640
I can't fucking believe this. This must be doublethink. There's no way someone can convince themselves of a conclusion that arises forms many false premises.

>>2820803
At the risk of sounding like a total cringe lord, it's been my experience that most people haven't put the effort out to actually fully consider their positions and keep good justifications for them. Most atheists just don't believe in God and don't have a good reason for it, most Christians believe in God because someone they trust told them to and that's good enough for them, etc.

>>2820814
Yeah, it's not cringy at all, we're all like that for most beliefs we hold, it's already a lot to have questioned and studied a sizeable minority of them.

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Craig embarrasses himself when he debates with people who are actually experts on the topic and have decent oral skills, like Sean Carroll on cosmology or Shelly Kagan on ethics.

He is obscenely overrated by his fans.

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>>2820773
In a debate:

christian:
>multiple biblic quotes
>historical support
>solid evidence of jesus
>geography context of the time
>different translations of the scripture, based on studies from respected historians
>philosophy based arguments building a solid reasoning in order to contemplate the existence of a superior being that created us all
>cientific theories matching religious ones, years of research

atheist debating:
>show me god
>people explain what they don't know with religion
>every religion is the same
>i don't see i don't believe
>lol invisible man wut

>>2820870
>In a debate:
What's with americans and debates?
Don't you have books? Read decent books on the subject. If you actually care, I can tell you a couple of books/essays/articles to read.

>>2820763
>Yeah and muslims back in the day saw mohammed ride a flying donkey and allah split the moon in two.

Areyou implying that he did not? Multiple non-Muslims have also reported that they have seen Muhammad riding a flying donkey and splitting the moon in two.

>>2820887
>Areyou implying that he did not?
Yes I am

>>2820891
Well, you are wrong. How do you explain the fact that multiple non-Muslims have also reported witnessing this event?

>>2820564
First of all, its not about understanding it, its about having any knowledge of it whatsover, of the words written in it, American Christians lack that...even more so than athiests, how can they understand their religious texts without having read them?
I wasn't an athiest for most of my life (or about half of it at this point)...what do you say to that? How does one forget how to discern the bible if I knew it at some point?
>In fact, much of the teachings of Jesus were made so that atheists COULD NOT understand them
that sorta flys in the face of the whole "conversion" thing, the whole "benevolent" thing and kinda just makes it sound like the meaning of the bible is up to the whims of the reader, provided they are Christian ofcourse. Im sorry but I don't think you're fit to argue for your faith, you're not smart or devout enough defend it as well as other that I've seen, you're defense of your faith is not very respectable.

>>2818011
>this is what some morons actually believe

>>2820899

Not him but multiple people report seeing Bigfoot too that doesn't mean i believe them

>>2820926
cuck

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>A-theory of time
>neo-Lorentzian conception of "relativity"
>Reformed epistemology
>Divine command theory

Liking Craig should be considered a sin.

>>2820814
This, even the people who put great consideration into why they are what they are, rarely do any kind of canonical or rhetorical research.

>>2818042
how does that prove that anything besides the claim that jesus coming back from the dead itself is true? if i claim im god and that if i die and come back to life, and then when i die martians come down and hit me with the life beam, does that mean i must be god?

if jesus came back to life then he came back to life, but what that means can still be endlessly debated.

As someone who grew up in an atheist country the attempt to "prove" God by American fundies just seems ridiculous to me.

Even if you can argue for "the prime mover" or some omnipotent consciousness, how do you move to further prove that it's your Christian God? It may as well be Allah, Brahman, or any other god of similar qualities. Hell I can make up some deity right now and it would be equally as plausible as the rest.

>>2820954
There is only one God you pathetic cuck.

>>2820926
At least Sasquatch leaves footprints....

>>2818196
>actively pushing people away from god
hahahahah holy fuck enjoy your eternity in indescribable agony you pathetic and absolutely unchristian in every single way subhuman fuck

>>2820959
Only cause you killed off their spouse with your shit posting.

Who the hell even is this guy? I'm not going to "study" atheism by listening to some religious guy and shouting back agruments.

t. An atheist

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>>2818011
>He makes.....look like children trying to build a valid argument.

You can't get more childish than trying to defend religion and the invisible all powerful beings they believe exist and should be worshiped.

That's like trying to defend Santa Claus.

>>2820433
The good news of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. How one can find peace with God through faith in Him. Y'know, the core of the Christian faith.

>>2820975
Jesus was a jew, masochist and a cuckspawn.

>>2820793
maintaining a consistent philosophical system as a christian is scripturally impossible

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Stop blaspheming against your roots, you fucking cucks

the pillar of the western society is catholicism, christianity in case you wanna be more tolerant, either way, denying the man who died on the cross for you means strengthen islam

the day you understand that, we can put up a fight against globalism and islam

just remember 2 things:
1 - christianity is the only religion passable of debating, with solid evidence and arguments. Every other one has multiple flaws and gets ridiculous when confronted with historical facts

2 - there is no salvation outside the Church

>>2821042
>Every other one has multiple flaws and gets ridiculous when confronted with historical facts
Like christianity?

>>2820698
It refers to the number of the man known as the Antichrist, of which Nero was a prototype (his name in Jewish gematria adds to 666).

Nero was not The Antichrist. Just an antichrist.

>>2820721
You care more about the West than the Kingdom of God, and denigrate Christians in the process.

Your reward is here on earth.

>>2820811
Look up "normalcy bias" before posting again.

>>2821042
>y-you'll be sorry

>>2820916
I don't have time to unpack this rubbish. You were never a Christian if you are not one now.

>>2820926
But you know, for sure, based on nothing, that there is no great North American land ape.

Fucking ponderous, the solipsism in this place.

>>2821042
>Stop blaspheming against your roots

First, I'm not a dirty Jew, and dumb ass Christians are worshiping the same Jew "god" as those bastards.

Second, I don't need to rally around a fucking "religion" when the survival of my ethnic group is more important. Jews don't share my blood, but my Euro brothers and sisters do. Fuck off with your Jew fairy tale bullshit.

>christianity is the only religion passable of debating

None of them are.

Not a single one.

>>2821047
you are in a thread of a christian man, destroyer of atheist cucks

and you say christianity has flaws?

kek at you faggot

>>2820975
If Jesus was not God, he was not qualified to be our redeemer, as he would just be another sinner.

If Jesus did not rise from the dead, his sacrifice would have been for nothing.

If you look at Paul's writings, it is clear that confessing Jesus is Lord, and believing He rose from the dead, is the new birth in the Spirit Jesus spoke of.

That's birth. The peace you refer to, etc., is experienced after birth.

>>2820435
I've spent years studying alongside priest candidates. I'm not brute forcing anything. I'm not aggressively atheist and they're very curious as to why I "chose" this worldview and as such we have very nice conversations about it

>>2820976
Gee, I wonder who told you that. Could it be.....

Satan?

>>2821042
>catholicism

Paganism.

>>2821059
Spooked as fuck. Sad!

>>2821059
>muh ethnic blood has universal importance.

>>2821062
>priest candidates

How can the blind lead the blind? Both will fall into the ditch.

>>2821072
>muh jew fairy tales have universal importance

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>>2821059
>>2821067
fuck off you nazi bastards

>>2821079
Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures forever.

>>2821083
One does not have to be a Nazi to see how obvious Babylonian paganism became Roman paganism became Roman Catholicism.

In fact, to be a Nazi, one must be a devout Catholic.

>>2821083
You seem upset, Schlomo.

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I think I understand /his/ now. Like, really understand it
It's history brought to life! Every dead theory, religion, philosophy, idea everything is washed away into this rancid, backed up sewer. Everything that falls out of the public eye, everything that loses relevance, all the ghosts of history. Christians larping as doos vult crusaders that will drive back the muslims, confederates, monarchists, stirnerites, communists, fascists, there's too many to count. It's like hell for ideas. You die and come here, where all you can do is impotently rage at each other and wail over your failure

>>2821118
no, it's like every other board on 4chan outside /b/ and /pol/ until it got infested with /pol/tards and redditors that have le ebic maymays and bants yo

its supposed to be a slow board

>>2821118
You must be new here.

>Captcha: Guy running for the exit door.

>>2821127
>until it got infested with /pol/tards and redditors that have le ebic maymays and bants yo

so immediately.

Seriously people were crying /pol/ day one.

>>2820721
Proddies are single-handedly bringing back Christianity. Catholics aren't stupid enough to take it seriously and proselytize very little. They're the Sunnis of Christianity.

>>2821042
>>the pillar of western society is catholicism
lol retard.

The pillars of western society are enlightenment values, capitalist economics, and a love of the greeks and romans who were at their best and greatest long before christardation was ever a thing. Go molest some altar boys, you faggot.

>>2821085
No it doesn't actually. Christianity is practically dead in europe and dying in the US. The only place where your superstition has any pull now is in the the third world.

>>2821061
>If you look at Paul's writings, it is clear that confessing Jesus is Lord, and believing He rose from the dead, is the new birth in the Spirit Jesus spoke of.
The new birth is not faith itself, the new birth is what creates faith in the person who otherwise could not believe.
>The peace you refer to, etc., is experienced after birth.
Technically it is, but we preach e peace, not the birth, and those who receive the birth will receive the peace. We have to give them the gospel for this though, and merely the deity and resurrection of Jesus is not the gospel.

>>2821467
>the third world
So Europe and America about 50 years from now?

>>2821492
>So Europe and America about 50 years from now?

Pretty much.

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Atheists are a disgrace and the reason why islam is getting stronger each day

Atheists think all religions are equal and turn their backs on the Lord
What they don't realise is that by weakening the christian society, they open field for muslims and degenerates

Europe is ruined
Atheism means being a coward and literally bending over for islam, saying you dislike and despise your culture. Declaring yourself as an atheist is the ultimate cuck move

In 2040 you, faggots, will be a mudslime cursed continent unless a new Adolf rises
So quit your arrogant pose and start reading the quran, infidels

>>2821530
Oh no better start pretending to believe in some imaginary friends you're supposed to actually believe in or a horrible what if story will unfold in your mind.

Might as well tell me I will burn in hell.

>>2821477
Faith is a necessary attribute in order to be saved; it precedes salvation. It too is a gift from God.

Paul, the greatest apostle, speaking from direct revelation from Jesus Christ Himself, disagrees with you.

Romans 10
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

>>2821546
>I will burn in hell.

Yes, yes you will. But not utterly and completely. Eternally.

There's still time to change that though.

>>2821467
Christianity is not a social order. The god of this world, the devil, runs the show.

Christianity is signing up for the new world, leaving this one behind.

>>2818062
Put me on the screencap senpai!

>>2821580
You really think what you're saying is impressive, don't you?

>>2821574
>Faith is a necessary attribute in order to be saved; it precedes salvation.
It depends on what you mean by salvation. Do you speak of justification? If so, then faith is the instrumental cause of justification, it is how God reconciles the sinner to Himself.
You say it's 'necessary'. Do you believe faith is sufficient to justify?
>Paul, the greatest apostle, speaking from direct revelation from Jesus Christ Himself
Do not confuse the Spirit with the Son. It isn't as though Romans was dictated by Jesus to Paul, it was inspired by the Spirit.
>disagrees with you
I'd be interested in what portion of this scripture you think disagrees with me, because I'm not seeing the relevant portion, or even what I said that you think it disagrees with.

>>2821530
I spent 3 years killing Muslims in A-stan and Iraq, bitch. The fuck have you "turn the other cheek" christjews done for our white nations?

Nothing.

You're just another jew.

>>2821611
You're holding onto a worldview with zero upside and an infinite downside.

You think you're rational, don't you.

>>2821613
1. Confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord; and
2. Believe in your heart God raised him from the dead.

When you do those things, get back to me about what Christianity is.

>>2821619
You know your video games aren't real, right?

>>2821626
>because it's impossible for any of the thousands of infantrymen deployed to A-stan and Iraq over the past 16 years to reply to this stupid bait thread

This is what some people actually believe.

>>2821585
Satan is a fictional character and physical reality is the only reality that exists.

>>2821492
Nope.

>>2821623
I have five questions
1. Did Paul write Galatians?
2. Did the Judaizers confess Jesus as Lord?
3. Did the Judaizers believe Jesus rose from the dead?
4. Does Galatians 2:4 call the Judaizers false brethren?
5. Is there consistency between Romans and Galatians, or are they massively contradictory?

>>2821623
>c'mon guise! Our ancestors fell for jew lies and fantasy, so why not the rest of us!

>>2821639
As a Gulf War vet, I know how to spot stolen valor pieces of shit like you, yes.

>>2821647
satan is your father. Your spiritual father. And you are following daddy into hell.

>>2821654
Do you know what a Judaizer is?

It's someone who makes people follow Jewish laws. It has nothing to do with being saved.

Some saved people were, to their shame, Judaizers. Peter was one of them. Paul confronted him to his face, and shamed him.

But every pharisee and Sadducee who set up synagogues around the area and in foreign countries were Judaizers, having literally nothing to do with Christianity. Like you.

>>2821662
Sure, you do, sunshine.

Sure you do.

>>2821659
It's supernaturally impossible to do and say that.
Go ahead and try.
Be amazed when you can't.

>>2821683
And fuck you for shitting on the people who actually did serve, you fucking Jody rat.

>>2821688
I spent a year in Baqubah, another year in Mosul, and another year humping the Kunar and Nuristani provinces looking for and killing brown people.

Fuck off with your faggotry.

We're done, cupcake.

>>2821665
Nope. Spiritual Father is a nonsensical term to begin with, fictional characters cannot be parents and hell is a fictional place.

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>>2821686

>>2821708
kek

unit and mos, in 10 seconds.

>>2821711
You can have your own opinions, but then you'll die and know better. It will, obviously, be too late then.

I wonder what you would give to come back to today, and not be a fool.

>>2821716
Sure is taking you a long time to google a unit and mos, snowflake.

I'll just go ahead and figure you are a piece of shit. As advertised.

>>2821721
>>reality is an opinion now.
Uh-huh. Yeah sure.

You can say whatever you like, magic is still fictional, people do not walk on water, rise from the dead or magically make copies of bread loaves. Nor is it possible for a person to somehow still feel or do anything after they are dead.

>>2821732
Your opinion is not reality.

No clue why you think it is.

>>2821734
My opinions are in line with the way physical reality actually works. Yours are in line with idiotic jewish fables from 2000 years ago. This makes me right and you wrong.

>>2821680
So Galatians 1:6 is wrong, they didn't preach a false gospel?
Galatians 5:2 is wrong, Christ is profitable to those who accept circumcision?
Galatians 5:4 is wrong, those who are seeking to be justified by law are not severed from Christ, they have not fallen from grace?

Since you're obviously a Hyper-Dispensationalist, do you believe all Jews are saved, or do they need the gospel too?

>>2821741
They're not, actually. You're actually an idiot.

>>2821741
>idiotic jewish fables from 2000 years ago.

WAY longer than that.

All that Jew shit originated way before the Romans conquered Judaistan, and the jews branched off to develop their christjudaism.

>>2821753
>>petty insults
Nah. You're the idiot for not noticing me assfucking your mother, wife and little sister while you were sleeping the room next door.

PS: Your wife gives really toothy blowjobs, might want to tell her to watch that shit if you want to produce anymore moron for jeebus.

>>2821744

Fuck you're an annoying autist.

>So Galatians 1:6 is wrong, they didn't preach a false gospel?
>I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

They were TURNING AWAY FROM THE GOSPEL.

>Galatians 5:2 is wrong, Christ is profitable to those who accept circumcision?
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,[a] and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

STAND FAST IN LIBERTY; CHRISTIANS ARE DEAD TO THE LAW. CIRCUMCISION OF THE FLESH MEANS NOTHING. ONLY CIRCUMCISION OF THE HEART BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

>Galatians 5:4 is wrong, those who are seeking to be justified by law are not severed from Christ, they have not fallen from grace?

You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
FOLLOWING JESUS IS NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW OF MOSES YOU TWIT

>Since you're obviously a Hyper-Dispensationalist, do you believe all Jews are saved, or do they need the gospel too?

EVERY SINGLE PERSON IS SAVED THE EXACT SAME WAY.

>>2821762
Is this literally your first day on the internet?

>>2821761
I know, but I was specifically slamming on christfaggotry there. I know that it's based on jewfaggotry in many ways, but it also became it's own separate sort of nonsense too.

>>2821769
No. I just don't feel like putting in the effort to properly insult that guy.

>>2821772
You don't know jack shit, and prove it with every post.

>muh judaism is only 2000 years old.

>>2821775
You know this is 18+ still, yes? You idiotic non-samefagging AIDS ridden felcher?

>>2818011
the bible is self-refuting. for example, this passage contradicts the exodus narrative by placing generations of the half-tribe of Ephraim in Canaan when the Israelites were supposedly all living in Egypt.

1st chronicles 7
>20 The descendants of Ephraim:
>Shuthelah, Bered his son,
>Tahath his son, Eleadah his son,
>Tahath his son, 21 Zabad his son
>and Shuthelah his son.
>Ezer and Elead were killed by the native born men of Gath, when they went down to seize their livestock. 22 Their father Ephraim mourned for them many days, and his relatives came to comfort him. 23 Then he made love to his wife again, and she became pregnant and gave birth to a son. He named him Beriah,[c] because there had been misfortune in his family. 24 His daughter was Sheerah, who built Lower and Upper Beth Horon as well as Uzzen Sheerah.

>>2821772
Fair enough.

>>2821776
I'm aware that judaism is significantly older then that?

>>2821784
Border wars, Jew. The Hebrews were up north in Goshen, and fought border wars.

Holy shit this is like kindergarten in here.

>>2821780
>>herp derp you hurt my feelins so imma call you a kid
Buddy, I'm well past the legal drinking age in the US.

>>2821793

I don't know, are you?

>>2821801
For breast milk, maybe.

>>2821763
>They were TURNING AWAY FROM THE GOSPEL.
So, in other words, unsaved?
>STAND FAST IN LIBERTY; CHRISTIANS ARE DEAD TO THE LAW. CIRCUMCISION OF THE FLESH MEANS NOTHING. ONLY CIRCUMCISION OF THE HEART BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Christ. Will. Profit. You. Nothing. What do those words mean?
>FOLLOWING JESUS IS NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW OF MOSES YOU TWIT
So if you follow the law of Moses, you aren't following Jesus. Do people who reject Jesus go to heaven or hell?

>>2821802
Yes I am, that was the point of that post, sorry it went over your head, but people who take these religious debates on here seriously tend to have tiny and malformed retard brains.

>>2821798
they fought border wars with Gath which is nowhere near the border and founded towns in Canaan as part of these border wars?

>>2821809
You are really fucking obtuse, and beyond my endurance to suffer fools.

1. Baby Christian Jews were turning back to temple worship.

2. If you want to be under the Law, Christ profits you nothing.

3. If you follow the Law of Moses, you are literally Jesus Christ Himself.

>>2821812
Do they? Do they ask stupid questions when people obviously already posted the answer?

>>2821619
a faithless man fighting for oil

what a sad man, i hope you find jesus

>>2821798
also let me add that I love how not only do you consider Jew an insult, but you always acuse anyone who isn't christian and is knowledgable about the bible of being a Jew. I suppose this fits your narrative that atheists simply know nothing about the bible. oh I wish I was a Jew so then I could have potentially learned biblical hebrew growing up.

>>2821826
>Baby Christian Jews were turning back to temple worship.
What. What? The gentiles in Galatia were not Jews, nor does it say they went back to temple worship. It says they were circumcised
>Christ profits you nothing.
And what does that mean?
>If you follow the Law of Moses, you are literally Jesus Christ Himself
Heresy, damnable heresy

>>2821848
Trust me, it doesn't help dealing with idiots like that. Then they just get mad that you point out that the KJV translation (and it's always the KJB for some reason) is wrong about all sorts of things and the Bible doesn't actually say what they're claiming, and you endlessly bog down in recriminations.

>>2821848
Gath raided Goshen. Obviously. How hard is this to understand?

Jew.

>>2821827
You seem awful upset that I mocked and insulted a christfag for some reason. Why's that?

>>2821856
Getting circumcised is not salvation. This is not a difficult concept.

Going back to temple worship is not salvation. This too is not a difficult concept.

Christ profits you nothing if you are not born again in the Spirit; Jesus did what He did, you ignored it, you go to hell.

Nobody followed the Law of Moses except for Jesus.

Nobody.

AND ESPECIALLY NOT YOU, YOU SDA FAGGOT.

>>2821857
Name one thing the KJV is wrong on, but for keeping Jerome's shitty translation of Lucifer.

Go ahead.

>>2821831
We didn't fight for oil, or country, we fought for each other.

That's what soldiers always end up fighting for...

>>2821865
Am I? Am I awful upset?

>>2821872
Literally ripped out of first person shooters.

What a piece of shit you are.

>>2821858
and then Ephraim's daughter founded towns in Canaan. What was she doing? charity work for Canaanites?

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>>2818011
He just parrots revised version of the big three (ontological, teleological, cosmological arguments). He never loses because whenever things get shaky he flees into the safety of his self-contained logical propositions. If you're a thinking person, it's difficult to remain a Christian after watching him debate.

>>2821871
A great little one is the oft-quoted Isaiah 7:14, which the KJV renders as

>Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Even before we get into the whole business about how הָעַלְמָה is very badly translated, with the עַלְמָה part meaning "young woman" and of course the KJV dropping the prefix of "the", we run into a more fundamental problem.

הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן in no way means "She shall conceive and give birth". הָרָה is masculine, not feminine, and furthermore, is not parsed as a future event; it's a very classic biblical masculine preterite verb.It doesn't mean "she will conceive", but "She has been (in the past) inseminated", with the implication that she is pregnant right now as of the time of Isaiah talking.

>>2821905
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srFgZbcGMUI

>>2821874
Seems that way to me.

>>2821883
You're kinda boring. Nobody cares whether you or that guy you're arguing with were actually in the military or not.

>>2821905
thanks anon. i knew the issue with using the word virgin and the original context of the verse but this is pretty interesting.

>>2821920
Can you actually present an argument instead of linking to a half hour long video by some tele-reverend?

>>2821934
Not an argument

>>2821884

>generations later

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>>2821943
You sure converted me with your unclicked link and three words, anon!

>mfw people are too lazy on this shitpost hive to even paraphrase these days, just spew stale memes as if they're contributing

>>2818062
Please, don't share your meaningless opinions

>>2821905
Oh, God, another autistic Jew.

Double Prophecy

Unto us a child is born (Isaiah and his wife)

Unto us a Son is given (Jesus, the Son of God).

Isaiah's wife was a young woman, but not a virgin.

Mary was a young woman and a virgin.

Double prophecy used the term that BOTH women were, young women.

And the Septuagint, 70 Jewish scholars whose sandals you are not fit to lick, translated it into the Greek as VIRGIN, Jew.

>>2821927
Nothing that seems right to you is actually right.

>>2821931
>>2821959

Never trust Jews.

>>2821949
my bad, it was Ephraim's grand-daughter. still well within the 400 years that Israelites were supposedly in Egypt.

>>2821959
None of that changes the fact that הָרָה is both masculine and past, which of course you'll just ignore to make it fit muh jebus. And there's no real evidence that the Septuagint was in fact translated by 70 amazing scholars, but your ad hominems are as entertaining as ever.


>>2821848
see what I mean?

>>2821959
one, you did not address the linguistic problem he mentioned. two, double prophecy is nowhere infered from the passage itself

>>2821963
>>baseless claims.
Faggot status confirmed.

>>2819431
this guy gets it

>>2820408
lol

thats deep though

>>2821065
make this post a banner

>>2821975
>see what I mean?
if you are this>>2821857 poster, i think that you're wrong that it's futile. barely anyone, let alone a fundie is gonna admit they were wrong in an internet argument. this, however, doesn't mean that their mind won't be changed. it took me years to stop being a christian even after i had already been presented with facts proving it to be bogus. but slowly my mind was changed for the better. these arguments are also beneficial for lurkers who are on the fence to see these ideas properly countered. also I enjoy them personally because it helps improve my memory of these issues, improves my arguing skills, and helps me better remember key passages off the cuff

>>2821982
I explained it fully.

A prophet who only makes prophecies that are to take place centuries later is a doubted prophet.

A double prophecy allows the people to see that the prophet is a prophet of God.

Isaiah and his wife miraculously had a baby after this prophecy was made. "Unto us a child is born."

700 years later, a virgin named Mary gave birth to the Messiah, THE SIGN TO THE WORLD THAT THE MESSIAH WAS BORN. "Unto us (the world) a Son is given."

By the first coming true, the people could know that the second would come true.

You believing a Jew who doesn't follow the Jewish Messiah is ponderous. He doesn't understand Judaism, obviously, because every single prophet promised the coming Messiah.

>>2821968
Yes, no shit. And so no contradiction, as you have no idea when Gath raided Goshen.

>>2821975
Isaiah's son and Jesus were male, yes.

Congratulations.

You now understand 1 prophecy.

>>2822017
>stop being a christian

You were never a Christian to begin with.

>>2822029
>Isaiah's son and Jesus were male, yes.
But the verb is being applied to הָעַלְמָה, the young woman. This is Hebrew, objects are put before the adjectives that describe them. "High Priest" is כהן גדול , reversing the order as it would be in English.

And since the woman giving birth isn't male (obviously), and of course הָרָה is a VERB, it isn't talking about Jesus.

>>2821975
>הָרָה
"pregnant" is masculine and past

kek

>>2822046
Yes, Isaiah's son and Mary's son had female mothers.

You're learning at a very slow rate.

Turns out only females get pregnant.

>>2822046
>הָעַלְמָה
That's not even almah, is it.

I think your Hebrew sucks as bad as your theology.

>>2822046
אלמה

This is almah, Jew.

>>2822048
Finally rung up Google Translate, yes? Try הרתה. And get a better dictionary. If you're going to stick to online, I'd recommend Morfix, but you should really get a print and paper one. הָרָה means any sort of origination/conception, and yes, indeed is conjugated in a masculine form.

>>2822052
Yes, and thus verbs describing their pregnancy do not in fact describe their issue, as you claimed >>2822029


>>2822054
It's "The Almah", but of course you'd have trouble grasping minute differences if you don't know the language.

>>2822057

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/t/t1007.htm
Wrong as usual.

>>2822058
kek

#rekt

Your Hebrew sucks as bad as your theology, and you're going to the very hell you imagine gentiles are going to.

>>2822070

Women - pregnant - baby comes out.

>>2822070
>>>2822054 (You)
>It's "The Almah", but of course you'd have trouble grasping minute differences if you don't know the language.
>>>2822057 (You)
>http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/t/t1007.htm
>Wrong as usual.

Thanks for contradicting yourself in the very same post.

>>2822026
it's telling that you won't address the issue of her founding towns in Canaan

>>2822032
I still don't understand how you fundies think this makes any sense whatsoever for there to be a multitude of "christians" who aren't actually christian. please explain how when I was praying to Jesus to forgive my sins that if I had died that instant I would have been cast into hell for not having accepted Jesus. I could video-tape myself right now on my knees praying to god to enter my heart and when nothing changes you will still claim that I made no real effort to be a christian.

>>2818189
Europeans aren't white.

How do christians try to explain away the fact that there are humans who live their entire life without ever hearing about christianity?

>>2818011
You're impressed by "Circular" Craig?

>>2818773
I don't think he necessarily fails.

I've only ever seen some cosmologists resort to saying

>lol my model is just a theory bro sorry you can't use it in your argument

They dress up their argument all fancy which works for debates but they never really do anything to help their case or hurt his.

I don't think anyone in the field seriously considers a true infinite universe even if its convenient for them in a debate.

>>2820734
There is more *historical* evidence that Jesus rose from the dead than there is for the death of Julius Caesar.

One is a miracle so you don't believe it but really if you are skeptical of one event you should be skeptical of another yet everyone accepts that one.

Your reasoning is really bad as your objections pretty much rule out every event from antiquity as made up.

>>2820846
Sean Carroll didn't do anything but say:

>Dude, my theories aren't correct you can't use them in your debate

He had good debate skills but really failed to prove anything positive or disprove Craigs argument although he atleast understood how arguments work.

Also, did you guys catch the sneaky Jew Lawrence Krauss making shit up in his debate and the like 2 months of drama between the two?

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>>2823181

>Lawrence Krauss

He's a piece of shit. Harris had him on his podcast recently and he started spouting some crap about how he doesn't see Muslims as an actual threat, and is more concerned with Republicans in America becoming a theocracy.

He's the textbook example of blue-pilled.

>>2823168
>There is more *historical* evidence that Jesus rose from the dead than there is for the death of Julius Caesar.

Congratulations, that's among the stupidest fucking posts in this entire thread.

>>2823195
>Lawrence Krauss
>He's a piece of shit.

This is true.

He's yet another idiot that thinks his ability to perform advanced math for physics makes him an expert at everything else....

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>>2818011
>>2818229
I just started watching the full debate. In contradistinction to Craig's quantum-babble, Carroll at approximately 32 minutes in has already wonderfully and lucidly clarified his world view. To summarize:

The natural world is a given. It's laws can be studied. Nothing apart from these laws is worth studying, and nothing logically prior to the premise of an already given natural world ought to be considered. The reason nothing logically prior to an already given natural world ought to be considered is that it does not help us to elucidate the laws of the natural world which, again, are the only things worth studying or considering. The chief reason only these laws ought to be studied is because their study is useful. Because nothing logically prior to the natural world helps to clarify the laws of the natural world (in fact, it can't by definition), and because the consideration of things logically prior to the natural world never provides any kind of utility, one can therefore conclude that nothing logically prior to the natural world exists. Ta da!

>>2818216
Did you win the debate?

>>2823250
That view isn't exactly right, but there is a rigorous argument that is similar which argues that same thing as what that view is meant to argue. It goes something like:

The properties of anything outside of the universe cannot be inferred from observing anything inside the universe. This is axiomatic by the definition of "universe". It follows that any statements about properties of things outside the universe are false.

>>2823302
>The properties of anything outside of the universe cannot be inferred from observing anything inside the universe. This is axiomatic by the definition of "universe". It follows that any statements about properties of things outside the universe are false.
Also implied here is that only that which is known by inference from observation in the universe can ever be considered true. Which premise itself is not known by inference from anything observed in the universe! Obviously just as absurd and idiotic as the "naturalism" Carroll puts forward. I hope it was clear in my post that I was mocking him. Still I respect his way of thinking more than I do Craig's quantum-babble.

>>2823323
The point is that all mysticism is self-contradictory because it ultimately claims that something which cannot be observed, was at some point observed.

I attended Catholic school for ten years, the only book that was allowed on our desks was the bible for most classes. Every day we prayed in the morning, before lunch, the end of the day, I'll pray before dinner and before I sleep. My family attend church twice a week. I read and reread the bible so many times in my life I could open a random page, look at the header and give a summary on its message. In my opinion, the bible is the most important book in western literature and anyone serious about learning western art, history and politics better know the bible well.


I'm still an atheist and nothing this guy's says proves anything wrong. He's those "interpretive Christians cherry picking and choosing aspects of the religion he can support in an argument. I lose respect for any true Christian believers

>>2823335
>mysticism
Wha-... who said anything about mysticism? But if you want to bring up mysticism, I think most of it is based on the following assumptions:
- There are faculties (e.g. "Active Intellect, spirit, etc) that a human being possesses which are privy to special forms of knowledge.
- these faculties are only accessible when certain conditions are present (such as can be met with in special "schools", e.g. monasteries, yogic schools etc)
- the nature of the experiences they allow one to access can not be described by the faculty of language, except perhaps symbolically.

Of course, I'm not quite sure why you bring up mysticism, or if you mean the religious variety to which I just referred.

>>2823358
I was trying to find a more general term that refers to religion and everything like it. The idea of "knowledge outside the material" is disproven by the interaction problem.

>>2823389
>The idea of "knowledge outside the material" is disproven by the interaction problem
Ah, but you see that's why the third assumption I provided is so essential in understanding what so-called "mystics" believe. The interaction problem implies a dualistic conception which is a logical construct or model of our existence. The mystics on the other hand are not founding their worldview on logical models but on experience. For the mystics there is a fundamental experience of "higher knowledge" that trumps all philosophical/speculative models and practically renders them irrelevant. Mysticism is empirical not logical. How one defines the experience after the fact is at best an approximation, or better yet merely a vague indication that such an experience in fact exists. A philosophical model can never replace this fundamental experience for the mystic, and all such speculation is regarded by them as wholly inadequate in comparison.

Of course, not all religion falls under the heading of mysticism. Mysticism is a distinct thing. There are many varieties of religious expression that rely more on such philosophical premises, but that isn't the case with mysticism. At least not in the way that I use and understand the term.

>>2823411
Logic is integral to empiricism though. "Experience" is a type of interaction, the interaction between a logical system and something else.

>>2823438
I do not require logic to see the computer screen which is in front of me. Likewise, I do not require logic in order to cognize, by means of some special faculty, as the mystics would have it, "higher" forms of knowledge. One could construct a model describing this process after the fact, but such a model is not identical or even adequate to the experience itself. Just as the word "table" is not the same thing as an actual table. The word is an arbitrary configuration of vibrations emitted from the mouth or constructed with lines on paper that refers to an experienced object which is in no way dependent on the existence of the word used to indicate it.

>>2823451
Your reaction, that is, your experience is constructed according to a set of rules; logic.
>I do not require logic in order to cognize, by means of some special faculty, as the mystics would have it, "higher" forms of knowledge
The process by which knowledge is acquired this way is called "attraction", and it still uses logic.

>>2823153

>I don't think anyone in the field seriously considers a true infinite universe even if its convenient for them in a debate.

Totally wrong. Inflationary models that predict an infinite multiverse, such as eternal inflation, are endorsed by plenty of cosmologists, including big names like Alan Guth.

>>2823195
>using terms like "bluepilled" unironically

Kill yourself

>>2823482
>experience is constructed according to a set of rules
That's where I have to disagree with you. Experience is explained in terms of rules/language after the fact. Such concepts are conventional and useful, but not intrinsic. In fact, far from disparaging them I have to acknowledge that without recourse to such conventions I could never furnish you with any kind of explanation or argument as I am doing now! Nevertheless, they are not adequate to the immediate experience which they merely indicate.

>The process by which knowledge is acquired this way is called "attraction"
I'm not at all familiar with this idea. Could you perhaps explain it in greater detail?

>>2823181
He thoroughly dismantled the fine-tuning argument, and the Kalam doesn't even get off the ground as it's based on outdated metaphysics, namely the A-theory of time.


>Sean Carroll didn't do anything but say:
>>Dude, my theories aren't correct you can't use them in your debate

It's like you didn't even watch the debate

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>>2823168

>Name any other reason other than "God did it" to explain the existence of the universe.
>See?
It sound like someoe trying to prove aether exist.

>>2823493
Your idea seems to be that the experience contains the whole picture of something, with what follows only containing a partial image. This is just an issue of semantics; where you define the border of when "experience" starts. If you say that the point at which two points meet is where the experience one point has of the other starts, you'll get one definition. If you say that the point at which two points react is where experience starts, then you'll get a different definition.

>Could you perhaps explain it in greater detail?
In chaos theory, there are things called attractors. The reason why the recursive nature of consciousness is beneficial to humans even though there is almost no analysis on each layer of recursion(we are aware of our own state but do nearly nothing with that awareness) is because that recursion draws a map of all knowledge as its attractor. Each layer of recursion makes the mind more and more chaotic but also makes an attractor more and more apparent. So when you find knowledge by going from what you know to what is "close" on the attractor, it's called attraction.

>>2820846
WRONG

All Carroll argumented was that science is not sure about its theories, therefore Craig's arguments become invalid, which is almost cringy, given that God's existance independs on natural phenomenons. Craig only builds a line of thinking for close minded atheists to think more easily

>>2824813
Looks like craigcucks only see what they want to see. Craig was completely outgunned in cosmology, he showed how much of a layman he is, and how weak his reasoning actually is.

Neither the Kalam nor the fine-tuning are sound arguments.