Why are Chinese martial arts bullshit?

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>“The key difference between what Mr. Xu does and martial arts is that martial arts isn’t a competitive sport,’’ he said. “It’s not about really hurting. It’s about giving your opponent ‘face.’ And Mr. Xu’s style is about beating your opponent to near death.”

>>2813203
>Incidentally, it turns out that the MMA guy in the video is now in hiding, fearing for his life because of death threats from Chinese nationalists.
Man, the 'martial arts' industry in China is so fucked up. So many deluded people.

>>2813203
>Incidentally, it turns out that the MMA guy in the video is now in hiding, fearing for his life because of death threats from Chinese nationalists.

To be fair though, the MMA guy was a bit of a faggot.

He obviously knew the martial arts guy was not realistically going to beat him in a fight, they're not fighting for real in a ring, and it's just a little bit of show in front of a crowd, I mean he isn't even wearing gloves. And yet he goes full MMA on the guy, straddling him when he knocks him down and beating the shit out of him with head punches, and then he fucking celebrates.

If the MMA dude had any self respect, he'd just have knocked him down, then stepped back or helped him up or something, as it's plainly clear before anything happens that he is never going to be in any danger of losing.

>>2813262
He wasn't a faggot, take it from someone who can speak Chinese and understands Chinese culture. People like him in general, who stand up to the layers upon layers of bullshit and fakery in Chinese society are heroes. He deserves a fucking medal for exposing that professional bullshitter. If only China had a few million people as honest as him, it would be a very pleasant place.

>be asian
>about to have a bout
>expect white piggu to be honourable
His own fault

>>2813376
>white piggu

The MMA guy was Chinese you dumb Asian """""""American""""""""

>>2813378
lmao, grievance mongering /r/asianmasculinity faggot BTFO'd!

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>>2813203
>Tai Chi

It's bullshit because Tai Chi is a fucking exercise discipline.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_chi
Have you ever visited a Chinese city/city with a sizable Chinese minority? Seen those slow exercises old people there do? That is Tai Chi.

What was this old nigga thinking to even begin with holy shit.

>>2813421
It isn't actually, that's just a slowed down form of it used for exercise, originally its a martial art.

>>2813203
It might work against spears n tai chi swords n shit (as it was intended in the crouching tiger days), but MMA is a martial art consisting of the best techniques from various other martial arts. The tai chi guy was a fool to think that water can defeat a rock in a quick battle

>>2813442
MMA is essentially a modern, sanitized pankration.

That's why it is good.

>>2813446
Isn't that Greek oilwrestling or some other homoerotic sport?

>>2813428
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neijia
If you're just doing Tai Chi, you;re doing exercises.

>>2813453
>homoerotic

Not all of us can be as masculine as a part of the world whose male aesthetics revolve around looking like a twink.

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>>2813524
Actually in East Asia, Male Aesthetics involved being strongfat.

>>2813539
>mock westerners for being hairy
>take pride in bumfluff beards that take 40 years to grow

>>2813203
Well Tai Chi obviously isn't a martial art.

I mean, someone who has trained Wing Chun Kung Fu for example would probably do better, but in the end what it really boils down to is much experience you have sparring. And that's actually pretty independent of what kind of martial art you've trained.

>>2813421

My thoughts exactly.

Coming up: Mexican chainsaw druglord vs. an old granny doing morning exercises

>>2813421
He was chatting shit about MMA on the internet prior to the fight.

>>2813203
Chinese martial arts are mostly modern inventions, although some (not many) can vaguely be traced back to legitimate warrior training. They are a response to an Asian feeling of inferiority during the colonial era, where for reasons of nationalism and ethnocentric pride, they 'discovered' these secret invincible arts that proved Asian's superiority over the foreign white devil ("but please don't use them, they are ancient secret techniques" *wink* and "oh you say you used them and got destroyed? well they're actually about the mind not fighting, so you need to meditate for another decade until they are invincible arts for you" *wink*).

>>2813262
I agree. MMA cucks are fucking obnoxious.

>>2813590
but most of Kung Fu is bullshit aswell
Most Asian marital arts are bullshit period

>>2813631
It really isn't if it is applied to actual sparring and combat, like Bruce Lee did.

>>2813635
but it isn't
and bruce lee tried to revolutionize the traditional chinese marital arts. he invented sort of mma light

>>2813631
The only Asian martial arts I can think of worth a damn are judo and like one or two styles of karate, desu. I guess muay thai and sanda/san shou but those are as removed as possible from the 'traditional' sphere.

>>2813644
The best Bruce Lee ever accomplished was jeet kun do, and for anyone interested look up how many jeet kun do guys actually compete and win anything that means anything.

Protip: you probably won't find any.

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>>2813644
Sure, but a lot of what he taught, like straight lead kicks and strikes are adapted from Wing Chun.

You'll never see a Western boxer strike in a straight line perpendicular to his body.

>>2813663
>You'll never see a Western boxer strike in a straight line perpendicular to his body.

BECAUSE IT'S FUCKING SHIT, RETARD.

You also will never see a wing chunner beat a boxer.

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>>2813652
Karate/Muay Thai/Sanda & Sanshou are basically kickboxing.

It's basically why prior the romanticizing of Eastern Martial Arts, you had westerners gathering around Lei Tai martial arts tournaments and going "well this is literally just boxing with some kicking involved."

>>2813667
It really isn't shit though. But like I said, real fighting is mostly about experience and less about autistic systems and styles.

>>2813671
there is basically only one way of effective fighting (MMA).
If you forbid striking, you get boxing, if your forbid wrestling, you get a boxing.
So all effective marital arts will naturally look similar

>>2813644

He took something from European fencing if I remember correctly, among other sources.

>>2813677
for boxing, i agree
for wrestling (especially on ground), i would argue there are a lot of positions and submission moves one has to memorize

>>2813677
If that were true, then guys from all backgrounds would compete and win. The problem is, they don't. Guys from traditional backgrounds get fucking wrecked every. single. time.

>>2813687
That's literally what I'm saying you fucking retard.

>>2813681
>So all effective marital arts will naturally look similar
Plus there's really so much you can move a human body to begin with.

>>2813696
No you're not, shit for brains. You're arguing that a wing chun nigger could hold their own in the ring which has literally never happened. Quit being a bitch for getting called out on your retardation.

>>2813611
Asian martial arts are quite old. The Wuxxia tales are quite old and martial arts in general found their way into China, via India, long before the colonial era.

>>2813705
A Wing Chun nigger wouldn't beat Anderson Silva, but they'd certainly beat the shit out of you.

>>2813714
No, no! I have a double blackbelt in bitch-stomping. You're fuckin' dead, kiddo.

>>2813203
>newfags not knowing about Hadouken

>>2813203
The double whammy of the Century of Humiliation and the Cultural Revolution.

>>2813539
>>2813556
>tfw I now want a bearded, burly East Asian daddy to fuck me

>>2813372
can you expand on this?

>>2813203
Don't you think it is a crying shame we can't have discussions like this anymore on /asp/? I remember the old days, may laughs where had before rassling blew the place to shit.

>>2814105
Oh absolutely, mandrama fags ruined the board.

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>>2813203
Chinese martial arts are not bullshit, its just that over time people no longer train them for fighting but as a type of cultural preservation.

Even back in the sixties in Taiwan, challenge matches between kung fu guys were common. When Wang Shu Jin moved to Japan he excepted challenges from a variety of disciplines and won. The marital arts researcher like Robert Smith and Donn Dreager, both Judoka praised him.

The degradation isn't universal of course.There are "Traditional" marital artists with experience in sanshou and wrestling. There is also push hands but thats more a test of stability than fighting, though some rules sets involve a certain level of grappling. But overall yeah, the traditional forms have become exercise with little application beside push hands, but they dont have to be that way, and they were not that way in the good ole days

>>2813203

remember joe rogan talking about this a while back and saying most martial arts shit like that all comes in after the 70s and all those kung fu films and is basically spiritual bullshit snake oil. People are only drawn to it in the first place for the mystical spiritualism of the orient or whatever vs athletic chads doing MMA for the express purpose of beating the shit out of people in a fighting competition. Its almost like saying "hey who would win between a marine combat veteran and this guy who really likes paintball?"

>>2813203

for all its preaching about spirituality, every kung fu master or whatever I have ever seen is some arrogant chode asshole who runs a McDojo as some sort of pseudo-cult. Some arrogant fat middle aged loser who thinks hes a badass because he has a room of 12 years old bow and refer to him as master.

>>2814037
Sometimes a society has so many layers upon layers upon layers most of them become superfluous and the inhabitants itself forget how things actually work without the needless regulations they follow.

>>2813372
Now someone needs to issue challenges to those cultural peddlers who prop up Chinese delusion in the realm of philosophy and politics (Daniel Bell, Alistair Macintyre, etc.)

>>2813372
Agree with this guy (>>2813262), but waiting for some based redpilling coming from your side.

MMA fighters are inherently the most adaptable fighters in the world because of the nature of MMA. You've got boxers and wrestlers fighting Taekwondo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

Legit Chinese martial arts forms do exists, but it's basically ching chong kickboxing, or ching chong wrestling. They probably never rose to prominence, because it's not as cool as 'White Dragon Celestial King Death Punch Form'.

>>2815243
>They probably never rose to prominence, because it's not as cool as 'White Dragon Celestial King Death Punch Form'.
They actually were what most asians thought of as martial arts until the commies banned everything.
There are colonial period accounts (mostly british that I know of) of martial arts tournaments in China, they're literally described as "boxing with peculiar accoutrements".

>>2813203
Personally I dont think this guy is very good at tai chi.

Before you accuse me of "that's not real tai chi" look at this, the guy is supposedly "founder" of his own style, here is the west that is often a red flag for bullshido, same in asia.One is not a "master" of Tai chi until a senior teacher makes you one. Starting your own style either means you have this, or you think your big and tough enough to set out on your own. Clearly this guy isn't the latter and I have doubts he is the former.

Ive also seen Tai chi guys grappling, before, Maybe it was the addition of punches but they are not so rigid, and they do not constantly back petal, weight on their heels.

Are there any videos of this guy doing regular old push hands?
I would never go to a tai chi guy to learn how to fight when there are good kickboxing and grappling schools in every city, but I would go to a tai chi guy who shows superior stability and power generation in push hands, because that can be applied to normal grappling and striking.

>>2813203
>Were they always bullshit and useless in a real fight...

Any "fighting" art that doesn't use live sparring with resisting partners is 100% garbage against those that do.

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>>2815243
thanks for the kek anon

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>>2813262
Oh boo hoo.

That fucking "tai chi" faggot is one of thousands of assholes that extort millions of dollars out of naive people that believe they are being taught how to defend themselves. Fuck that guy, and every bullshit snake oil "martial artist" like him.

>>2813663
>Bruce Lee invented the shitty arm punch

Nope.

Boxers don't punch that way because there's no power in it. That's the way children punch before they're taught how to punch by somebody that knows what the fuck they're doing.

>>2813421
>Tai Chi is a fucking exercise discipline

that's what you think. It is not only good for exercise you know. But only if you're Han ofc.

MMA is for faggots because they don't understand their own contradictions.

They complain traditional martial arts have too many "rules" making the fight unrealistic, which leads to stupid fights like in this video. MMA claims to be the "most effective" and only seek the best way to beat someone.

Well that's bullshit because the best way to beat someone would be a gun.

From that, you have to realise any martial art can't take "reality" has a premise because no amount of training will have you dodge bullets so the only real goal is about sport, not real fights. So why doing an ugly and ungraceful sport like MMA when you can use traditional kung-fu ? Kung-fu was ALWAYS a philosophy more than an martial art, do you think people in the past didn't know the best way to beat a guy ? Kung-fu isn't about that.

*has knife*

now what?

>>2815821
no

>>2815828
yes

>>2815823

*kicks you extremely hard in chest and runs away*

>>2815821
t. butthurt traditional martial arts practitioner

What do you do if you're unarmed and someone attacks you without a weapon? MMA will allow you to defend yourself in a real fight whereas Kung Fu won't do you much good. I hate the whole TMA argument of "well it's not supposed to beat someone up". That's a defeatist statement that just lets us know that you can't justify the hours you put into your garbage martial art.

>>2815823
*unsheathes gun*
heh...your move amigo

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>>2813212
It's not really a ''martial'' art if its nature is not combative, is it?

>>2815848
*teleports behind you*

>>2815854
MASAKA

>>2815843
>What do you do if you're unarmed
I buy a gun
> and someone attacks you without a weapon?
I tell the police on him
> MMA will allow you to defend yourself in a real fight
It's not a "real" fight. You can "beat" MMA by the most basic things like "grab him and put your fingers in his eyes". You don't need a martial ART for this, you don't need codes, moves and rules, you just need to be strong and know how to hurt.

MMA is a contradiction, that's it. Why do you think, if that's so great, soldiers never learn a single martial art ? They train to be tought, to have stamina, to be effective with a weapon but not martial art, even MMA. It's useless in reality.

>>2815756
>there's no power in it
A straight punch like that can have a lot of power, it's just not generated the same way power is in modern boxing. Instead of using your hips, you basically use your legs to generate power; if you try something that looks like it without knowing how it actually works, yeah, it's going to be shitty. I've shown punches like that to a few of my MMA friends (I did heavily Chinese-influenced Kempo as a kid before getting into grappling later on), and they've all been impressed.

>>2815821
I think the most important point to make about MMA is that is rule set. It's not really a separate martial art, it's more about training to succeed according to a set of competition rules. In that way, it's not that different from most other arts that also train according to a rule set. What makes MMA stand out is that its rules cover more territory than most other arts, which means you learn things that are more applicable. But the same thing can also be achieved through cross-training effective arts.

>>2815858
>telling the police after you've had the shit beat out of you when it could have all been avoided if you were trained

>It's not a "real" fight. You can "beat" MMA by the most basic things like "grab him and put your fingers in his eyes"

If an untrained moron like yourself can poke eyes what do you think someone with MMA training can do? The whole "just fight dirty" argument is retarded because people with actual training can implement that while fighting dirty. It's also not as simple as just poking someone in the eyes or just kicking them in the balls.

Soldiers do learn hand to hand combat but they don't need it comprehensively because they're armed and the likelihood of hand to hand combat is less likely.

>>2815873
But do you need MMA to fight ? Do you think MMA will add anything to real effective hand to hand combat ? I'm not talking about training here, anyone can train, i'm talking about MMA rules and moves.

It's like have a straight punch doing 100 damage and then a faggot comes out and teach you how doing a backflip while punching in a curb line with three fingers out and wearing a pink tutu will make you able to do 99 damage. Why the fuck would you listen to him. That's MMA.

>>2815858
>I buy a gun
"Excuse me mr. violent assailant, could you please wait for me to just go and buy a gun? It will only take a few days for checks and shit."
>I tell the police on him
"Excuse me mr. violent assailant, could you please wait for the police to arrive and apprehend you?"
>It's not a "real" fight. You can "beat" MMA by the most basic things like "grab him and put your fingers in his eyes".
Top fucking kek. Thank you for confirming to us all that you don't have the slightest clue on the subject.
>You don't need a martial ART for this, you don't need codes, moves and rules, you just need to be strong and know how to hurt.
"Excuse me mr. violent assailant, pls avoid hitting me while I awkwardly try to grab you while you violently attack me and try to aim my vulnerable fingers to a small and very easily defendable target on your body"
>MMA is a contradiction, that's it. Why do you think, if that's so great, soldiers never learn a single martial art ? They train to be tought, to have stamina, to be effective with a weapon but not martial art, even MMA. It's useless in reality.
All soldiers and even most policemen are trained in hand to hand combat you fool. Granted most are rank amateurs, but then most soldiers are also rank amateurs at marksmanship. So unless you want to imply that soldiers don't need guns...

>>2815892
To be honest, that's martial arts in general. MMA is the second guy coming, listening to the faggots and then saying "hey, I think we only need to have two fingers out and I'm not sure about the tutu color".

>>2813203
>>2813203
>Incidentally, it turns out that the MMA guy in the video is now in hiding, fearing for his life because of death threats from Chinese nationalists.

I believe it, the traditional martial arts in china function as cults and are often connected to organized crime

>>2815893
>All soldiers and even most policemen are trained in hand to hand combat
Yes. Not in any coded martial art. Not in MMA. Just hand to hand combat with basics like how to pull your weigh in your punches. Fancy techniques and rules are useless.

>>2814743
These traditional martial arts 'masters' are propped up by the communist government.
This is such an embarrassment that the communists have decided to ruin the MMA guy's life(destroying his business, suspending his social media etc.)
I actually wonder whether original martial arts survived the chinese civil war, as this guy is a communist tool and the lign to the past might be broken an all this a communist reconstruction

>>2815873
>The whole "just fight dirty" argument is retarded because people with actual training can implement that while fighting dirty.
No, the fight dirty argument is retarded because fighting dirty is just stupid. Poking someone in the eye or hitting someone's balls straight on is just as likely as landing a fucking haymaker on a prepared opponent, aka it doesn't happen anywhere near often enough to warrant trying in most situations.

>>2815908
>communist
you keep using that word

>>2815916
I'm the only one itt, don't forget that this IS the people's republic, and they want to keep the 'myth' of martial arts in tact, it's one of china's biggest cultural exports

>>2815906
>Not in any coded martial art.
Uh yeah in coded martial arts. Not stupid shit like wing chun or assorted mcdojo fodder, but still.
Most police forces train judo or sambo for example. US marines train MCMAP which is based on boxing, wrestling, savate and fencing.

>>2815906
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT5stC-SBF0

This is a police combatives group called shiv works. They work out of a bbj gym. The guy who runs it, Kit Leblanc as far as I know, teaches BJJ but also as an appreciation of classical Japanese weapon arts, particularly battlefield grappling. He actually said he left classical grappling because it trained him to kill the downed guy which for a police officer is the opposite of what you want to do.

that said they are mostly reworking bjj for situations with weapons.

>>2815892
>Why the fuck would you listen to him. That's MMA.
DESU, your example sounds a lot more like what a Kung Fu or Karate guy would tell you to do. MMA is mostly about simplifying things and doing what's effective. Kung Fu is notorious for including lots of unnecessary flowery bullshit, and Karate's main form of training is essentially dance choreography.

>>2815928
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program#Techniques

MCMAP draws influences from several disciplines including Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Wrestling, Boxing, Savate, Jujutsu, Judo, Sambo, Krav Maga, Isshin-Ryu Karate, Aikido, Muay Thai, Eskrima, Hapkido, Taekwondo, Kung Fu, Sayoc Kali, and Kickboxing.[9]

>>2813705
>literally never happened

try again kiddo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQtJMIvnANQ

>Old man gets jumped by young muscular MMA fighter
THIS PROVES MARTIAL ARTS MUST BE USELESS

Worse than samurai vs knight debates.

>>2815947
We're already digging a lottle deeper than that here though

>>2813705
Heres a kickboxer against wing chun


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM0zbMCLiC4

holds his own very well

>>2815947
>THIS PROVES MARTIAL ARTS MUST BE USELESS
It kinda does in a way. Afterall the debate is basically 'fitness, sparring and everything that works goes' vs 'listen to my centuries of wisdom and inflexible traditional method'. Both fighters are quite representative of the respective mindsets.

>>2815370
>described as "boxing with peculiar accoutrements".
Classical pugilism (historical bare knuckle boxing) actually has a surprising amount in common with several kinds of Kung Fu. A lot of the punches, footwork, and even the vertical fist punch are pretty much the same. But boxing ended up being seen as more effective at the time (reports of fighters during the boxer rebellion aren't very complimentary) because their training methods weren't as good. A lot of the things people think of as key and distinctive parts of modern boxing actually only happened after gloves and modern rulesets were introduced.

>>2815959
>kickboxer
>long trousers
LOW KICK IS LOVE
LOW KICK IS LIFE
BAN AMERICAN KICKBOXING

>>2815954
The whole thread is wrong and talking shit.

Martial arts aren't some magic secret technique you unlock which makes you the best fighter ever who can defeat anyone. They teach you a series of convenient and helpful moves you learn by muscle memory which you can do in a fight in a particular situation to perhaps give you the edge, say you're stuck in a lock, there's a Judo move you can do to get out of that.

But that's about it, in the end it still entirely comes down to the individual fighters, their strength, reactions, reflexes and flexibility, that's what physical fights always come down to, Martial arts and all training is purely rehearsal so that you can react a little quicker in a situation with less though, it's like learning parachute procedure or reloading a musket.

The MMA guy is a better fighter, that's why he won, I'd bet money if they had swapped practices, that man would have still won.

>>2815964
Thats a rather narrow view of both, and one does not preclude the other .

>>2813659
Yeah, but Bruce Lee really paved the way for modern MMA to be as popular as it is.

He was the original, "style is bullshit, you're all pretentious cunts who need to lift more and only use what works" martial arts guy. For a manlet Bruce Lee was jacked and in phenomenally good shape, and a lot of the telegraphing that he did on camera was in the interest of making a more visually interesting movie, and not indicative of how he actually would have used it to defend himself.

Even if Jeet Kun Do wasn't the answer, he at least asked the right questions about martial arts

>>2815975
>convenient and helpful moves you learn by muscle memory
But see, that the whole point of the argument. People here are arguing that traditional eastern martial arts don't actually teach you convenient moves, and the training methods don't actually instill muscle memory because no real sparring.
If the MMA guys had 'practiced' like wing chun he most likely wouldn't be half as prestant anyway.

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>>2815986
Sparring tends to hardwire reactions quicker, on the other hand, unless you have drilled something there are limits to what you can pull off in sparring

>>2815983
>one does not preclude the other
It kinda does. If you insist on following tradition, you'll inevitably fall behind on technical progress.
Sparring and physical training in general are far more efficient today than they were 200 years ago.
Spread of knowledge means you have to learn to counter a much wider array of techniques and movements compared with 200 years ago.
Pretending you can just keep doing the same things you were taught without adapting to the world beyond you is as idiotic as pretending to use swords against rifles.

>>2815999
Of course you need to drill moves. But the point is that's a gradual process. No matter how much you drill, you'll never learn the right timing without trying the moves while sparring.
Martial artists don't try new moves on matches just because they drilled them. They try them extensively while sparring beforehand.

>>2816004
Maintaining a classical syllabus is not at odds with fitness, or even mma. I would agree that modern training methods, for what they are have advanced a great deal due to the spread of information.

Tradition does not mean never adapting or changing, and in fact testing yourself is in many ways far more traditional than never changing anything.

Tradition is more about preserving what worked, often in a premodern environment so we can learn from it today. It does not necessarily mean being rigid yourself.

>>2816010
I wasn't criticizing sparring, though I would say live training is more of a spectrum than most people realize.

>>2815999
Sparring IS drilling moves, that's the point. Unless you practice shit you learn on an actual opponent it's worthless.

>>2816018
See the problem here is that you're talking of the positive side of tradition, and I'm specifically talking of inflexibility and rigidity using tradition as an excuse.
Afterall, if you just take traditional fighting techniques, add modern training and prune what time made ineffective you get Jigoro Kano and his judo. When teachers fossilize and make the art stale and bogged down in tradition, you get Maeda and Gracie with BJJ.
Can you see what I'm driving at?

>>2816053
> I'm specifically talking of inflexibility and rigidity using tradition as an excuse.

Of course that's a problem, but it also tends to be the only thing people ever talk about in regards to "tradition" The positives as you put it get very little talk.

>>2816033
Sparring can be a form of drilling yes, though most people often distinguish between the two for the sake of simplicity

>>2813262
aww chinaboo mad his bitch "fighting system" got exposed for what it is? Maybe the pussy shouldn't have taken a fights he knew he would lose.

>>2815999
>Sparring tends to hardwire reactions quicker,

Whenever we practice anything, we're building neural pathways and, essentially, creating memories we can access. Sparring creates neural pathways that allow us to recognize things faster than those that don't, and when you can recognize something faster, you can react to it faster. This is why those that spar will always have an advantage over those that don't.

>>2813614
back to /pol you go. And learn what the word cuck is before parroting non sense and other racist shit from your containment board.

>Tai Chi

This is exactly like If the MMA guy fought a Yoga instructor

Who would celebrate doing that?

>>2814105
honestly what happened? I remember the board was mostly martial arts then I go back a couple years later and its ALL wrestling. Are there any discussions like this at least in traditional sports. Did everyone just move? I don't believe people actually care about wrestling. Its as if some gay wrestling forum died and they all migrated over here or some shit.

>>2815946
the guy is slapping and wearing jeans. I'm also a practitioner of muy thai, karate, tkd, judo and boxing because I trained for a week once and did a free class at the others. When I spar in jeans at a gym for youtube, I represent what boxing is.

>>2815821
t. Ho Chi Ming

>>2815959
this isn't kickboxing. The name is wrong. Just look at his movement and strikes. I couldn't even tell at first who was practicing what. Wing Chun guy is good regardless though.

>>2816289
Few would argue against free sparring, at least for unarmed stuff. But traditional two man kata are designed to do just that, force someone to train a reaction under stress, even in the face of extreme danger. Far from choreography, They allow a senior to train a junior at the stress he can handle, and by removing the safeties like always doing the same thing, or going at a reasonable speed advance practitioners can use the same forms to train at their limits.

>>2815975
I think most people would agree that if any Northeast Asian martial art has use it would be judo. Judo is cool. We're not knocking it. We're knocking chink stuff.

There was a thing called the Boxer Rebellion once upon a time.

What is it with MMAfags being know-it-alls? It seems like the Reddit of competitive sports.

>>2817536
Young men training hard tend to be a bit arrogant about it, and there certainly is alot of self-delusion among so called traditional martial artists.

of course usually not isnt the same as never, and I think alot of people who talk like that have little experience with classical martial arts besides what passes for it in most towns. Most people I know involved in classical arts travel great distances for a competent teacher, or move.

>>2813681
>there is basically only one way of effective fighting (MMA).
I can't believe that idiots actually believe this.

MMA is a fucking sport. Go on youtube and watch MMA practitioners get killed in street fights. A fucking MMA BJJ practitioner got stabbed to death using MMA in the street.

No one in their right mind goes down on the ground wrestling people. Because if you do, you expose yourself to knife attacks or other people stomping on your head while you try to choke their buddy on the floor.

MMA is a SPORT designed for fighting on a soft mat, in the middle of an enclosed mesh ring, that does not allow a variety of illegal moves (eyes, groins, back of head), and literally trains you to fight with the expectation that your opponent has no weapon.

>>2817459
Those guys fought people with guns. And they used swords as well.

>>2815682
Live sparring is essential to any real martial art, Western or otherwise. You just can't train feeling pain and reacting to it.

>>2815873
>If an untrained moron like yourself can poke eyes what do you think someone with MMA training can do?
Technically, this is wrong. As someone who's trained in boxing and MMA, when you train, you train to only use the moves you are taught. This means that your muscles will only function in a way that it was trained to do.
Playing dirty is something that doesn't show up as often, especially for those that have been really geared up for professional competition.

That's because when you really train in boxing/MMA, when you think "kick", your body thinks "kick in legal spots". When you think "punch", your body thinks "punch in legal spots".

This is why it's dangerous to think MMA means anything in a real fight. You're trained to parry and block with your bare arms?
If the other person has a knife, you've essentially allowed him to destroy your weapons.

Fighting real fights against fighting MMA/boxing is a completely different skillset.

>>2813203
I don't think Chinese martial arts in of themselves are bullshit. I think there's a lot of people who claim to be masters that's bullshit.

>>2817751
First rule of fighting a guy with a knife:
don't.
Second rule: above all else avoid getting stabbed anywhere between the thighs and the neck.

Your best bet is actually to take a knife to the arm if getting cut is unavoidable.

That being said, no sport martial art prepares you for a real down and out fight, especially ones where weapons get involved.

I don't doubt he's in hiding, chinese nationalists are psychopaths

just look at the shit jackie chan says

>>2817692

now hold on, I thought they were the ones that thought they could martial arts themselves bulletproof

I don't recall hearing that they used guns

>>2817908
What do you mean by "prepare" if its "increases your chance of survival significantly" there certainly are.

Most weapons arts accepted that the chance of death was high, someone with only a few victories with sharps could be considered a veteran. One of the thing they focused on was learning to do your stuff with the stress of a sharp in your face.

Many of the people who historically trained in those arts didn't necessarily have the choice of running away, either because they were law enforcement or soldiers, or because of social norms which would brand them a coward.

>>2813203
>Why are Chinese martial arts bullshit?

THAT IS A GROSS EXAGGERATION; A MARTIAL ART BECOMES INEFFECTIVE, AND/OR INEFFICIENT, WHEN IT LOSES ITS DIRECTION, AND FORM IS EMPHASIZED OVER PURPOSE; THIS DEGENERATION IS GRADUAL, TAKING DECADES, OR CENTURIES, THUS, THE CORRECT QUESTION IS: "WHY ARE FORMALIST MARTIAL ARTS 'BULLSHIT'?"

I ALREADY ANSWERED THE QUESTION.

>... death threats from Chinese nationalists.

YOU MEAN "CHINESE ORGANIZED CRIMINALS", NOT "CHINESE NATIONALISTS".


INCIDENTALLY, BRUCE LEE IS THE BEST AND GREATEST MARTIAL ARTIST OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY, AND JEET KUNE DO IS THE BEST MARTIAL ART EVER.

>>2817751
lol
just lol

>>2813203
Martial arts in modern times end up being forced into very specific niches.
Traditional kung fu in large part ended up on the niche of making pretty presentations, even though those sequences were created mostly for training purposes originally. And as it specializes in fulfilling this niche, it becomes less practical.
Tai Chi is the same, it fell too hard into the niche of therapeutic and traditional shit old people and chinkaboos get into.
MMA fags like to brag about bringing out only the most practical and efficient styles, but if you look at self defense courses for comparison, it's actually a pretty specific niche as well.

>>2817943
They didn't use guns, they fought people who used guns.

>>2817751
>parry and block
obvious your some basement dwelling middle ages combat arts aspie so don't comment unless you have experience.

>>2815873
>people with training can not only kill you, but killER you! ha take that!

Do you understand how stupid you look? MMA is a sport, not a way of self defense. You're just as bad as those retarded katana faggots.

>>2818022
What's laughable about that?
Everyone who's actually ever trained before knows this. When you train, your instructors tire you to the point where you can't think straight and you're only moving based on ingrained moves that you have been training on for months.
This is so when you are in a very stressful situation (actual live sparring), your body ends up doing most of the work even before you think. Someone does an armbar on you, you do a counter move. Someone tries to throw a hook at you, you throw a counter move. This is why a lot of combination shots follow a predetermined pattern, especially in boxing.

When you train in MMA, you train for sport. You don't train to poke eyes. You don't train to kick nuts. You will always revert back to your training. The first thing that will come into your mind and body are legal attacks. The same with your defensive stances and moves.
No one in MMA as it is now trains to fight knife-wielding assailants, because there is no situation like that in the ring/octagon.
>>2818096
>no experience
People do train to parry and block in MMA striking. What MMA do you know that doesn't include that? Even professionals still parry and block in MMA.

>>2818077
No wonder they lost coz they brought spears to a gunfight.

>>2817908
>first rule of fighting a guy with a knife:
>don't
I don't prescribe to this. You're basically saying give up and get stabbed. First thing you have to do is try to get a weapon.

>>2816316
nope /f/ is still alive and well

Traditional Martial Arts, specifically the Chinese ones, need more sparring and combat application. The Japanese and Southeast Asian martial arts at least have some levels of actual sparring.

>>2818134
No he's saying that if someone threatens you with a knife you protect your life and give him the $5 in your wallet.

>>2818142
forgot korea bro

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>>2816345

>>2813203
>Were they always bullshit and useless in a real fight, or did this happen over a period of many years

Not necessarily. Though as part of the Cultural Revolution CMA was pretty heavily suppressed and the PRC has, over the course of the 20th century, attempted to rebuild a Wushu "tradition". But this "tradition" is really just ethnic dancing as directed by the state.

Sanda/San Shou has become more popular, but like MMA and other combat sports was looked down on by "traditional" CMA people. Now allegedly the CMA community in China is trying to get some San Shou university fighters to step up and push Xus shit in (according to someone in China that was posting on r/ martial arts).

Which is par for the course in China. One thing they love to do (the state and sports promotions) is get a foreigner, preferably white, with little or no training and fight experience and get them to come fight in a Chinese pro card against a really good Chinese fighter. Then they will claim that the foreigner is a UFC champ or some shit and let the San Shou university fighter beat the dog shit out of him, if they don't just pay the guy to take a dive.

>>2813241
>So many deluded people.

That's CMA as a whole. And can be extended to almost all Traditional Martial Arts people in the world to varying degrees.

>>2813262
>To be fair though, the MMA guy was a bit of a faggot.

If you've been around the "martial arts community" for more than a few years you'll understand that he had to decisively BTFO of the guy. TMA people will twist reality to try and claim a victory and save face unless you can completely shut them down. And you can look online in the CMA/TMA "communities" where the Tai Chi guy is already getting disowned.

>>2813421
>It's bullshit because Tai Chi is a fucking exercise discipline.

Tai Chi is a standing grappling system. But the way most CMA people train turns out garbage """"""""""fighters"""""""""".

>>2813590
>someone who has trained Wing Chun Kung Fu for example would probably do better

They wouldn't. They just really wouldn't. Many have tried.

Literally the only guy to have any success with Wing Chun in MMA is Alan Orr. And that's because he trains the same way literally every other MMA guy trains and calls in Wing Chun. And that's only at small local amateur promotions.

>>2813635
>It really isn't if it is applied to actual sparring and combat, like Bruce Lee did.

Except Bruce Lee didn't. He was an actor first and foremost.

There is no proof that he ever fought anyone except Wong Jack Man in a "challenge fight". And it's come out in the last decade or so that 90% of the myths about that fight propagated by his wife and friends were complete bullshit. And that Bruce Lee was a complete cunt to everyone when he moved to SF.

The guys like Joe Lewis that he trained with have said they never saw him even spar and that he was just all about lifting, drilling, and choreography.

Which makes sense because he was 1000% more worried about making movies than being a good fighter.

>>2814145
>People are only drawn to it in the first place for the mystical spiritualism of the orient or whatever vs athletic chads doing MMA for the express purpose of beating the shit out of people in a fighting competition.

On top of the Orientalism TMA are attractive to most people because it promises results regardless of pedagogy if they just put in "enough time".

So you get guys that have been training at a strip mall krotty dojo who have never in their life stepped onto the mat or in the ring and tested what they've been training who are high level instructors.

>>2815243
>They probably never rose to prominence

Shu Jiao has become a little better known recently and Sanda/San Shou has gained a lot of popularity in the last few years.

But the rest of CMA is generally just acrobatic forms.

>>2815870
>I think the most important point to make about MMA is that is rule set.

A rule set that encourages a more realistic methodology to training that has shown what works.

And TMA people are quick to decry MMA without realizing that plenty of guys with Karate and TKD backgrounds have done well in MMA and kickboxing.

At least in the US kickboxing began as Full Contact Karate (still exists as a rule set in many promotions and can be called American Kickboxing, American Rules Kickboxing, or Full Contact Rules). Guys who were doing the no-contact karate tournaments in the 50's and 60's thought it was complete bullshit and actually wanted to test it.

So you ended up with a mix of Karate and Boxing and the rise of fighters like Benny Urquidez, Don Wilson, Jean Yves Therault, Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris etc. who set the stage for guys like the Roufus brothers, Steve Vick, Ernesto Hoost (known for K1 and Muay Thai, but he fought some early Full Contact Rules fights in the 80's) and so on.

And then the Gracies brought Gracie Jiu Jitsu to the US and started the UFC which again changed what was considered the best format to test well rounded fighters.

>>2815858
>Why do you think, if that's so great, soldiers never learn a single martial art ? They train to be tought, to have stamina, to be effective with a weapon but not martial art, even MMA. It's useless in reality.

This betrays a gross ignorance of what is relevant to the training of a modern combat arms soldier and what the function of a modern combat arms soldier is.

The reason modern militaries don't spend hours upon hours teaching every troop how to fight hand to hand is because it's not a part of the METL for a combat unit.

>>2815892
>I'm a lazy cunt and want to justify not getting into the gym
You don't have to justify anything to us anon. You can just admit you don't want to learn how to fight because it takes a little bit of work and it's easier to just think you'll react favorably under stress with zero training.

>>2815947
>>Old man gets jumped by young muscular MMA fighter
>THIS PROVES MARTIAL ARTS MUST BE USELESS

Dude, the Tai Chi guys in only 4 years older than the MMA coach.

>>2818340
Chinese martial arts contain alot of interesting material. advanced techniques for strength building and power generation such as silk reeling and reverse breathing, studies in dynamic stability, such as push hands.

That they have degraded in the last century is fact, but CMA is more than empty forms, always was.

>>2818337
You do have to put in time, not in classes but in hours of conditioning. an hour a day over a few years is not alot to ask of a person.

The training model was never just do solo kata for ten years and you will be a fighter, it was do the solo kata /conditioning for a few years, work on paired stuff and then start testing it out in push hands, grappling and real fighting.

>>2817684
>MMA is a SPORT designed for fighting on a soft mat, in the middle of an enclosed mesh ring, that does not allow a variety of illegal moves (eyes, groins, back of head), and literally trains you to fight with the expectation that your opponent has no weapon.

And someone who trains at a fight gym who steps into the ring/cage even a few times would absolutely destroy you in a "real fight".

>>2818354
TMA is one of those lazy terms that I hate anyway. Traditional Japanese arts are not the same as the Chinese ones and neither are like the Filipino ones.
Its become a buzzword for an art that doesn't do things like MMA and the styles associated with it like bjj and muai thai. It has little value beyond the pejorative

>>2818368
>The training model was never just do solo kata for ten years and you will be a fighter, it was do the solo kata /conditioning for a few years, work on paired stuff and then start testing it out in push hands, grappling and real fighting.

Or you can go to a boxing gym that produces amateur and pro fighters, train for six months using their methods, and produce a guy who would absolutely wreck the 10 year CMA practitioner.

>>2818373
That's certainly true for alot of CMA guys. but if your suggesting that the "traditional" approach I described has no value I would say your very wrong.

>>2818387
Other than maintaining tradition, what value does it actually have?

>>2818373
What boxing gyms normally have also physically train a fighter to fight and to experience live combat. A lot of CMA don't have that. CMA that do end up looking a lot like Thai kickboxing.
But I wouldn't say that they would produce a guy that would wreck a 10 year CMA practitioner.
I did boxing and even I know I won't be able to beat a CMA practitioner who is trained to use a spear.
And the only reason I know that is because I trained with HEMA and know that CMA spear arts also have the somewhat the same basics.
If we were being honest, a lot of traditional martial arts were designed to include weapons, like Filipino martial arts, the hand movements are mainly for when you're using knives and blocking knives with your own knife.
A lot of traditional martial arts in China like baji quan is a precursor for spear combat, for example.
As a boxer, I also understand that some principles of wing chun can actually be used for certain applications, even against fellow boxers.

Chuck Norris actually fought with his karate in real tournaments, right?

>>2818390
A lot of Chinese martial arts are designed for melee weapon combat. I wouldn't say it doesn't have value. Aside from sport, MMA doesn't have as much applicable use in self-defense in comparison to kali and arnis, for example.

>>2818396
>I did boxing and even I know I won't be able to beat a CMA practitioner who is trained to use a spear.

Now you have to be specific here, because most of the weapons training you see for CMA, and TMA in general, is for forms competition.

It isn't like a HEMA club where guys are taking nylons or steel wasters and playing around with different weapons sparring.

As far as historical systems being weapons centered, I wholeheartedly agree. I also train with a HEMA group and teach wrestling. I fought MMA and "K1 rules" (no elbows) and wrestled competitively before I started training HEMA. I've also been in and out of TMA circles throughout that time too (Judo, Kyokushin, TKD, informal meet ups).

I think it's very telling that many historical systems are based on weapons and presume a level of comfort with grappling.

>>2818401
Yes. His thing was mostly point fighting though. Of course back then even point fighting had KOs, there weren't a lot of point promotions with "excessive contact" rules.

>>2818409
>Aside from sport, MMA doesn't have as much applicable use in self-defense in comparison to kali and arnis, for example.

Do you walk around in your every day life with a machete or some rattan?

Also most Kali/Escrima/Arnis guys I know spar.

>>2818390
That depends on the art in question. I know grappliers who swear by chi gung and similar methods, and put lots of solo conditioning in that stuff on their own time. Albeat most of the ones I know either personally or by rep are training in a modern adaption of those exercise rather than the classical arts they were taken from. That said the model of intensive solo drilling working into paired practice and finally testing in free form is the same.

I actually have agree with you on the traditional Chinese arts, to many pretenders and layers of culture to get to the good and interesting stuff, but maybe if certain teachers were in my back yard I would definitely pay them a visit

>>2818418
>That said the model of intensive solo drilling working into paired practice and finally testing in free form is the same.

Yet actual fight gyms tend to produce much better fighters by using this general path.

That should tell us that there is a key difference between how CMA people are training versus how fighters are training. The methodologies used by combat sports have been proven to be effective whereas for most "pure TMA" they just haven't.

And if you're training a purely striking "art" that teaches you how to punch and kick, and you can't succeed in a ring, how the fuck do you think you're going to succeed outside of a ring?

>>2818414
>Now you have to be specific here
Baji Quan's spear forms were pretty much just like HEMA spear fighting with some exceptions on the training regimen.
Serious HEMA isn't just guys playing around.

Never wrestled, but only did boxing but sparring. I can never say I "fought" because I've never done it professionally. I've fought on the streets before, but that has no rules, so I can't count that either in a martial arts sense.

>Do you walk around in your every day life with a machete or some rattan?
Most men carry with them a knife. At least in the places I go to and that's in America. Walking sticks, it's much easier to see that visiting the old country.

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>>2818414
Weapons are a whole nother ballgame. I cant tell you a lot about Chinese weapons, except the only weapon demo I ever saw in a Chinese art that impressed me was spear work.

I can tell you about JSA however, and they are structured around two man forms for a very good reason, and its not for form competitions or to look cool to people who dont know how to handle weapons. They are structured around hard wiring specific skills under high stress.

>>2818430
>Serious HEMA isn't just guys playing around.

By playing I don't mean goofing off, I mean trying things against a resisting opponent.

>>2818426
Not all CMA are just do-nothings. There are CMA that have sparring. But the thing I've seen happen is that they barely apply the shit they've learned and the moves they've practiced and all the fighting resembles is Thai kickboxing.

>>2818434
>Not all CMA are just do-nothings.

Certainly. We call those guys Sanda fighters.

>>2818426
I dont actually have much good to say about CMA beyond what I mentioned. If I wanted to learn to strike I would do kick boxing, and Ive already done Judo, though if I were to go back to grappling at my age it would probably be bjj.

>>2818432
Japanese weapon arts that are jutsu, not do, are mainly for killing, so yeah, you can't possibly do live sword sparring without heavy injury. That said, a katana is a very forgiving weapon and a light touch can cause a really deep cut, so the kata for kenjutsu and iaijutsu aren't completely for show. You can kill with those moves even with minimal follow-through.

>>2818441
There are CMA that have "sanda" as a systematic part of their training regime.

>>2818449
>There are CMA that have "sanda" as a systematic part of their training regime.

And when they step on the platform it looks like every other iteration of kick boxing that exists.

Because fighting looks like fighting.

>>2818453
Why should they be expected to look that different beyond small variations? Judo wresting and bjj look very similar to the untrained eye in a fight, but they are not the same

>>2818464
>Why should they be expected to look that different beyond small variations?

So let's start from the assumption that generally fighting looks like fighting and someone who is good at fighting will generally do the same or similar things and take a similar approach to fighting (foot work, techniques, ring generalship/spacial awareness, tempo, rhythm and timing etc.).


If one method takes less than 1 year to train proficiency and the other takes more than 10 years to train proficiency (if we assume proficiency can be reached with those methods) to an amateur level, what is the advantage to the second method?

If proficiency at the stated or implied goal of fighting is never reached or can't be reached by the methodology used, then what's the point?

As an aside: the vast majority of people who shit on CMA and TMA wouldn't shit talk so much if CMA and TMA people didn't talk about fighting all the time until they're asked to prove it and then shift to "spirituality, culture, tradition" etc.

>>2818222
Why do east asians cultivate this aesthetic of making themselves look like kung fu masters?

>>2818203
TKD is just a rip off of Karate. All Korean culture is fake.

>>2817920
>chinese nationalists are psychopaths

Yes and no. They're like barking dogs. Lot of bluster but very few would lay down their lives for China.

>>2818481
I think that's way too simplistic. TMA of all types were developed to kill people. They were designed for war. MMA is designed for unarmed sport fighting against one person inside a ring/octagon with a very strict set of rules that outlaws a lot of things to make it legal to practice in the United States of America.
That is not to excuse fake "masters" selling McDojo products, but MMA (and boxing) is not some kind of end-all, be-all pinnacle of martial arts.

>>2818508
>MMA is designed for unarmed sport fighting against one person inside a ring/octagon with a very strict set of rules that outlaws a lot of things to make it legal to practice in the United States of America.


If you train a system that teaches punching and kicking as the primary techniques, and you can't win when you are explicitly allowed to kick and punch, why do you think you're going to win in any other instance?

>They were designed for war.

Not if they are teaching punching and kicking instead of grappling and weapons.

>>2818491
I think that's just what he looks like.

>>2818481
I guess that would depend on alot of things,

how old are these guys? Will one method leave you broken after a few decades and the other not? can a forty year old keep up with method A on a regular basis?
will the one doing method B be able to beat the other guy who has been doing method A for 10 years?
Can you do methods A and B at the same time and get better than the guy doing only one of them?
Is method B more than just an unarmed fighting style? does it include weapons or other things that have a specific appeal to you?

Method A isn't bad, it might be better than B in many or even most circumstances, but even so that doesn't mean method D doesn't have value or something to add.

>the vast majority of people who shit on CMA and TMA wouldn't shit talk so much if CMA and TMA people didn't talk about fighting all the time until they're asked to prove it and then shift to "spirituality, culture, tradition" etc.

I can see how that could rub people the wrong way.

Chink government have apparently shut down the MMA guy's social media and have ruined his livelihood. That legit makes me sad, because all the MMA guy did was expose a fake who had probably been scamming other chinks out of money for decades.

>>2818516
>If you train a system that teaches punching and kicking as the primary techniques
Most TMA were designed with weapon use in mind. They were, again, developed for war, not sport.
It's just like how many of my classmates who were soldiers and revealed to me the fact that they admit they would get their asses kicked by actual boxers and MMA guys even with their own martial arts training, but they train in other shit than just punching and kicking.
Take for example, Baji Quan, the main shit you learn from it is to make you a great spear user.
MMA and boxing lets go of everything else just to specialize in punching, kicking, and unguarded grappling.
They don't account for weapons at all.
Of course, the hyperspecialized punching/kicking/grappling art is going to beat both a CMA and USA veteran if they both had to fight under MMA/boxing rules.
But let's say the MMA/boxing guy had to fight the CMA or US veteran with the other tools they were trained to fight with. Even with just a knife, they would rip the MMA/boxing guy to shreds, because hyperspecialized professional MMA/boxing has no knife defense at all.

>>2818337
It's interesting how there are large aspects of orientalism that orientals themselves actually defend. For all of the blustering of Asian American SJWs, Asians really do love this image of themselves as mystical, inscrutable people with exclusive, secret cultures that nobody can understand.

The idea of just being like any other race offends them more.

Just another way "orientalism" as Said described it is a retarded concept.

>>2818525
Well, brutally beating up someone with no headgear probably wasn't part of the deal.

>>2818524
>how old are these guys?

Let's assume the same age and the guy who trained method B trained in a pocket dimension in which 10 years = 1 year in normal space.

>will the one doing method B be able to beat the other guy who has been doing method A for 10 years?

Has a traditional CMA guy using only their CMA training methodologies been successful in any professional fighting promotion?

I don't mean a guy who did Sanda and I don't mean a guy who did Hung Gar for a few years and then started training using MMA/actual fight gym training methodologies that are not like the methodology they used to train Hung Gar.

I mean a guy who trained Hung Gar/[insert CMA of your choice] in the "traditional" method steps into a ring.

>Is method B more than just an unarmed fighting style?

There are guys who train with weapons that don't take ten years to get to a level of proficiency. If training with an infantry weapon took years to get to a level of proficiency then conscript/levy armies would never have existed.

>I can see how that could rub people the wrong way.
It's the cause of 99% of people shitting on TMA/CMA people.

>>2818538
>Most TMA were designed with weapon use in mind.

Can you name a few TMA that have a verified lineage to a weapon focused "battle field art" that aren't still practiced that way (like Koryu for example)?

>They don't account for weapons at all.

Which is fine. Most people aren't going to walk around with spears in their every day life, and even if they did you can take that guy who trained at an MMA fight gym who has an intimate familiarity with actually doing violence to someone under stress and teach them in a month or less how to use a spear or sword or what have you more effectively than a guy doing Baji Quan for 10 years who has never fought.

>>2818518
He looks arrogant.

>>2818555
Aside from the Japanese martial arts, there's Baji Quan, Kali, Arnis, Tongbei Baji, Xingyi Quan, and Pigua Quan. Well, those are the ones I know still have weapon roots in their training.

>>2818583
Missed the other half.
People do walk with knives with everyday carry every day. People own umbrellas. People also own walking sticks.
And yeah, in the shittier parts of cities, even in America, people can be carrying bowie knives. And those are huge.

>>2818555
Baji Quan actually has a sparring curriculum.

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if it has no sparring it probably isnt good

the chinese military already condensed it into a useful form anyway, go google sanda/sanshou training if your interested

this conversation has been made a trillion times already, jfc

>>2818583
Don't Koreans have a martial art with a basis in weapons? Not sure if Taekwondo is.

>>2818583
>Kali, Arnis,

I already talked about Kali/Arnis/Escrima earlier. For the most part those guys train against other resisting guys (ex. Dog Brothers). They prove they can fight.

>Baji Quan, Tongbei Baji, Xingyi Quan, and Pigua Quan.

So is the emphasis on training and fighting with a spear in formation or is the emphasis on empty hand?

The vast majority of TMA places emphasize empty hand fighting.

What training methodologies are used for teaching weapons?

Unless there is regular sparring with aliveness how do you know what your training works? If you don't fight against people you don't train with how do you know it works?

>People do walk with knives with everyday carry every day.

Certainly. But then why do you train with a spear?

>People own umbrellas. People also own walking sticks.

Then why don't you train with umbrellas and walking sticks?

>And yeah, in the shittier parts of cities, even in America, people can be carrying bowie knives. And those are huge.

Then why don't you train with bowie knives?

>>2818596
>Baji Quan actually has a sparring curriculum.

Most TMA have a "sparring" curriculum. But this is almost useless as a point because what is considered sparring can vary wildly.

>>2818610
>Not sure if Taekwondo is.

Tae Kwon Do was "invented" in post WWII Korea. It is not and has never been a "battlefield art". Just like the vast majority of TMA as they exist today.

>>2818622
Emphasis on spear and sword. The bajis are mainly for spear. It was mainly developed for melee warfare.
They generally spar with blunt spears and also do something similar to kickboxing in empty hand sparring.
Driving a knive into people can be similar to how you drive a spear into a person. Similar motions can be made with one's legs to do it.
Umbrellas and walking sticks are just substitutes. A spear is decisively heavier and harder to use than an umbrella and walking stick.
There's a training aspect to using a spear.
I would liken it to using a heavy bag in boxing.
That actually helps them build their muscles to throw hard shots.

You don't have to train with a bowie knife. You can transfer weapon fundamentals to smaller weapons. You've not trained with weapons, I presume?

Baji Quan's sparring is almost like kickboxing in empty, spearfighting is pretty much like a HEMA sparring session.

>>2818607
Sparring is a necessity for combat arts.

>>2817684
by "fighting", i meant fighting without weapons or multiple people on your side.
Of course, a knife or a gun will always be more efficient than any marital art

>>2818649
>You've not trained with weapons, I presume?

I train HEMA. German longsword and dagger. I've also trained with knife.


>Baji Quan's sparring is almost like kickboxing in empty, spearfighting is pretty much like a HEMA sparring session.

Okay, but does this represent the majority of Baji Quan practitioners? Or is this just you explaining hypothetically how Baji Quan is trained?

>>2818649
like this conversation has been going on for so long already

MMA itself is not just strictly a western style either, aside from boxing/kickboxing it also incorporates MT and BJJ

The current state of tai chi is due to:
1. Chinese Uprising
2. Chinese civil war
3. Mc Dojos

Just follow the rule that if police/armed forces use it, it probably has merit.

Also, unless it's a nice 1v1 situation you can be for sure most IRL fights will be one person going down and everyone else piling on them

>>2818659
pretty much

I'm sure there are sparring tai chi groups too, but most old people are not going to risk injury from sparring.

>>2818673
If you've trained with weapons, then how can you make dumbass retorts about having to train with an umbrella or a walking stick instead of a spear?
If you've really trained with weapons, you know this shit transfers, just like how rattan sticks can transfer from a small knife and vice versa.
Or how a spear can transfer to a fucking walking stick.
That is how Baji Quan is trained right now, especially Tongbei Baji.

>>2818676
The fighting arts police and armed forces use is not MMA. Most of them are designed to get you to your gun while dazing your opponent momentarily to do it.

>>2818687
it's probably enough to keep you safe

Unless your genuinely interested in competing in MMA

Speaking about that, how come nobody ever talks about all the issues about injury that come out of MMA/Boxing? I hear alot of professionals doing that sport in their 20s-40s have to take meds to stop Alzheimer and shit

>>2815821
I would argue that the "reality" that mma trains for is a fist fight.
It is a limited display of violence between two men, to solve a conflict.
In such a setting, it is ok to punch other into the face, but not ok to gogue out his eyes, or just to take a gun and shoot him.
So while mma wont reliably defend you from somebody who is determined to kill you no matter what, it will allow you to win a fist fight 9 times out of 10

>>2818704
All things that involve your brain shaking around violently due to outside pressure leads to brain damage. Modern artillerymen that regularly practice with mortars can get brain damage.

>>2818685
>If you've trained with weapons, then how can you make dumbass retorts about having to train with an umbrella or a walking stick instead of a spear?

Because training and fighting with a spear is not a 1 to 1 exchange for training and fighting with a knife.

I get to see it every time I go to a workout where I instruct dagger and knife and watch members who have been training (and sparring) with long sword and they have to learn how to use a dagger because it isn't identical to a sword.

Just like they do when they pick up sword and buckler or saber.

>If you've really trained with weapons, you know this shit transfers

There are things that transfer yes, like getting a feeling for range, timing, tempo, footwork, and ring generalship.

But these things can also transfer when a guy goes from training at a fight gym to training with a weapon.

>That is how Baji Quan is trained right now, especially Tongbei Baji.

Again, is this representative of the majority of CMA practitioners or just "your gym"?

Because I can't count how many times I've witnessed and participated in these discussions with TMA people from systems that haven't produced successful fighters that claim "their gym" is the exception.

>>2815858
>You can "beat" MMA by the most basic things like "grab him and put your fingers in his eyes".
Have you ever tried it?
It is hard enough to punch a boxer in the face, so I imagine that hitting a moving target right in the eyes is nigh impossible

>>2818714
hmm, good point
but surely mortar sounds are less worse than getting multiple punches to the face?

>>2818720
>Have you ever tried it?

Do you really have to ask that? Of course he hasn't.

>>2813667

Its so he can use his kicks retard, a boxer stance will make your kicks innefective and dificult

>>2818717
There are inherent moves that transfer over from spear to knife.
Hence, the word transfer. No one is saying that a fucking rattan stick transfers to a knife 1:1, same with spear to umbrella. That's just you being a facetious prick trying to set up a fucking strawman argument.
But you can transfer military saber to a fucking walking stick. It's not 1:1, but some shit applies. Same with spear to knife.

No. There is no fucking MMA or boxing gym that can transfer their techniques to weapons. Aside from maybe footwork, I can't see any and I am from a Western gym background.

>successful fighters are often based on international sport competition, otherwise, it's a nothing burger
MMA is a sport. Baji Quan uses a fucking spear. The next time you find me an MMA fighter willing to fight a spearman, then that's a real discussion.

And this isn't from "my" gym. It's what I have observed of actual Baji practitioners. I'm not some ra-ra TMA is awesome guy. But I'm also not some MMA cocksucker. I know both arts have limitations, but I also know they both have their positives as well.

I study HEMA, so naturally I look at the good every MA has. I can't believe a prick like you studies HEMA.

>>2813681
Muay Thai is the best, its straight up fighting no gimmicky moves and techniques, its more aggressive than kickboxing and you use your most damaging parts of the body thebknees and elbows, knees are fucking sledgehammers, and elbowscan cut you open and still do massive blunt force trauma, yet they are so easy to do.

>>2818731
A kick to your kneecap sounds dangerous. But it won't be as effective if the type of boxer in the fight is a technician that moves around the ring. I can see it happening against a slugger tho.

>>2818745
>their techniques

I didn't say "techniques". I said footwork, a sense of distance/range, timing, tempo, and ring generalship/spacial awareness.

>I can't believe a prick like you studies HEMA.

You mean you can't believe someone would disagree with you. As far as that goes you can suck a bag of dicks.

>>2818753
yeah, MT is pretty solid, If I have the time i'd go for it

>>2818754
too many people assume this will be some grand movie fight when IRL it will likely be some retards fighting on worldstarhiphop or liveleaks

and yeah, Self defense courses would be alot better if your just concerned with defending yourself.

>>2818754
It is but you cant really hit someone in the kneecap, I'm not sure I understand you, I was talking about using your knees to break someone's ribs or making them regret having lunch, a good Thai clinch makes your opponent basically a free target for easy and devastating knee shots, a guay in my club got koed by a weak knee shot to the head, you can easily kill someone with a good shot

>>2818722
It depends. Some rounds can really cause a large amount of vibration.

>>2818788
I mean, not everyone will be firing mortars above 120mm right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rn8KpY6-sI

And the valiant Chinese CMA community attempts to defeat the evil MMA barbarians once again!

>>2818430
>Serious HEMA isn't just guys playing around
Yes it is.

I've yet to go to participate in any HEMA event where anyone could beat me, or go five minutes without calling me a line-fag and whining how thrusting at them faster than they can get off their silly moves is cheating or not in the spirit or whatever.

Although to be fair HEMA isn't big where I am, so it probably is mostly just the dregs pretending to be big shots where they won't get called out.

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>>2813539
I'm actually beginning to notice this in art.

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>>2813203
>>2813611
>>2813840
>>2818805

> what is Sanda

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCVL8GRPF_Y

>>2818882
What is your point? No one here is shitting on Sanda. Or Cung Le who wrestled and trained TKD when he was in high school.

>>2818899
Its just dumb, the arguement has been done so many times already
Shouldnt this be on /fit/ or /asp/ anyway?

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>>2818899

> hurr durr Chinese martial art is shit

> but the effectiveness of Sanda which was originally developed by the Chinese military based upon the study and practices of traditional Kung fu and modern combat fighting techniques proves that Chinese martial art despite its flaws is not shit

> um what's your point

>>2818932
>and modern combat fighting techniques
>and modern combat fighting techniques
>and modern combat fighting techniques
>and modern combat fighting techniques
>and modern combat fighting techniques

>>2818932
Get out of here Ho Chi Ming.

>>2818960
Part of it still has cma moves
IE: leg catches/takedowns

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>>2818960

> oh look it has modern combat fighting techniques in it, that definitely proves Chinese martial art is shit!

> oh look Karate is a mix between indigenous Ryukyuan martial arts and Chinese martial arts influences, that definitely proves Ryukyuan martial arts is shit!

>>2818993
The bulk of it is modern you idiot.

>>2819005
Proofs?

>>2813652
Karate is shit too

>>2819005

God forbid Chinese martial arts to evolve over time! Tell me can a wise person still be wise if they chose to stop learning from others? And just because they chose to learn from others does that make them any less wise?

>>2819028
he said one or two styles of Karate.

>>2819040
The problem is that many of those 'wise' chinese masters still teach their traditional bullshit when far more efficient modern marital arts exist

>>2819044
More accurately people should put it in the aerobics sector desu

>>2819047
i would argue that aerobics is better for fighting, because with aerobics, you get at least some amount of fitness

>>2819061
I mean, some cma is argueably gymnastics/aerobics

Its better to learn sanda as a base,and then pick out certain moves from cma that might be useful in niche situations

>>2819040
>God forbid Chinese martial arts to evolve over time!

Isn't this entire scandal the result of CMA Masters rejecting change?

>>2818525
The social media group shut it down because he was charging thousands to answer questions on social media, something that is illegal.

Try selling shit on Facebook and see what happens to your account.

>>2819078
>Try selling shit on Facebook and see what happens to your account.

You do realize there are hundreds or thousands of Buy/Sell groups on Facebook right?

My university has a public Buy/Sell group on Facebook.

>>2819099
Do any gather enough attention of FB mods?

>>2819099
Even if they exist, they are still illegal since they break US corporate law. It depends on if you turn it into a business though or if it's just some paypal stuff.

Mr. Wang here got shut down for earning over $30,000 by answering questions. I am all for him exposing fakes though. I support more of these fights.

Nonetheless, Tai-chi is what you see grandpas and grandmas doing in Chinese parks. It's like Chinese yoga. I don't get how one fight by one person in one Chinese "martial art" reflects on all Chinese martial arts.

>>2813203
How is this at all /his/ related?

>>2813203
This is kind of like comparing apples and oranges.

Traditional martial arts have a strong focus on the fighter's mentality and are somewhat meditative. Almost like modern-day hunting, where you'll spend 6 hours walking around in the woods to get the chance at that .5 second shot.

MMA or (MIXED Martial Arts) has taken what's most effective from many schools so you can storm in and kill a guy.

It's like comparing a father and son on a hunting trip to a slaughter house looking only at meat production.

>>2819113
>It depends on if you turn it into a business though

There are stores that advertise on Facebook.

I really don't understand what you're trying to argue here. There's no real parallel considering the overbearing presence of the PRC on the internet in China.

>>2813421
>some shitty aerobic trainer gets mauled by a MMA bulldog
I'm in tears right here

>>2819139
You forgot the best part.

>Afterwards he claims he slipped because his new shoes were very slippery
>Then he changed the reason to: because if he fought back his power would have killed Xu
>Then: a victory would have brought imbalance

>>2819123
You're simply an idiot if you don't take Weibo's statement as indicatice of reality. He was earning tens of thousands for answering questions, which is against the rules on social media in Western nations and Weibo.

Facebook is not Amazon or Ebay. Just because there are advertisements does not mean there are actual business sales on the website. That is strictly illegal or Facebook would be incoporated differently and pay different tax rates in the USA, like Amazon.

There being minor buy/sell groups doesn't change this fact.

You can still find Mr. Wang on Baidu.

>>2816316
We were fed up with the mandrama faggots so we had a poll and made Hiroshito force them out to /asp/.

t. /sp/

>>2819118
The problem is that TMA 'masters' pretend that their art is an efficient way of self-defense

>>2819146
>t. Xiongwei Lu, Comrade First Class PRC Propaganda Unit 8788

>>2819146
>Just because there are advertisements does not mean there are actual business sales on the website.
Facebook literally has a "send money" button in the chat window, fucktard.

so what chinese martial arts are effective? what are some chinese grappling arts?

>>2819154
Yeah true. It's more efficient than nothing though.

If you have an MMA fighter vs a TMA fighter, I think the TMA will still lose but he might not get pummeled as bad as someone with no fighting knowledge at all.

I still think the value of TMA is more in the mindset. Any TMA "master" worth his salt will tell you the most important thing to know about fighting is how to avoid it.

>>2819239
>Yeah true. It's more efficient than nothing though.
Unfortunately, this is not always the case.
Some TMA are so shit that playing soccer would prepare you better for a fight. At least with soccer, you get some general fitness

>>2819251
>Unfortunately, this is not always the case.
If two people are in equal physical condition and one has studied a TMA, and the other hasn't, the TMA should have picked up at least a few useful tricks from it.

The important thing many of these TMA guys forget is that a street fight is not a dojo fight. As long as they keep that in mind they should have at least an advantage over someone with no training or experience.

I studied Taekwondo for 10 yrs (15-25) and I am in good physical condition. When discussing MMA and street fights the other day, my friend was saying that specifically because I studied Taekwondo I was now disadvantaged in a street fight as compared to him (he has no training and is obese). I don't see how that follows. 100's of hours of mock fights should be more beneficial to fighting than 100's of hours of soccer.

>>2819291
Really depends on the TMA
If it is something like Aikido, the person will have literally zero benefit from it in a real fight.
On the contrary, he might be in disadvantage for trying techniques that don't work when your opponent doesn't play along

At least Taekwondo teaches you how to kick

>>2817751
Depends on what you mean by a "real" fight.

The vast majority of "real" fights are pissing contests between drunk dudes. They both throw haymakers and press their weight, and the fight is other as soon as one goes back on his heel. Very rarely do they turn lethal, and are almost always avoidable by semi-decent human beings with just a little bit of proactive reasoning.

The guys who perhaps could lay the greatest claim to needing and using "martial arts" in their daily lives are police officers, and their close quarters training is quite different from MMA, emphasizing take-downs and neutralizing moves like nerve-strikes which would let a 150 pound female officer take down a 320 black dude coked up on PCP, because she'll be hammering that guy in a place where no amount of muscle is going to help him, like right on his Sciatic nerve.

The military has a simple but effective approach to CQC: grab the guy and pin him before he can reach for his gun or arm the explosives long enough for your battle buddy to come over and hopelessly stack the odds in your favor.

MMA is the king of sports-combat: where the goal is not to injure your opponent but to inflict fatiguing blows on him until you have overcome his will to keep fighting. And the fact remains that being in phenomenally good shape is probably the single best force multiplier that anybody could invest in, regardless of form or purpose, so an MMA guy remains one that you probably wouldn't want to tangle with, and whom a police officer would probably pull out the stun gun in order to subdue.

>>2819575
I guess take downs and neutralizing moves are more suited then

>>2819605
>I guess take downs and neutralizing moves are more suited then
When you are a police officer with a belt full of gear who, like most working professionals, doesn't have more than a few hours every week to devote to close combat training and exercise, who might be a man or woman in his 30's or 40's or even older.

Compare that to an MMA guy who spends upwards of 4 to 6 hours a day in the gym, and then devotes several more hours in the day to practicing techniques from the combination of forms that he practices, usually a form of kick-boxing and a form of wrestling, all for the chance to fight some other guy in his prime age (18 - 25) and roughly equal to him in terms of size and weight.

>>2819205
Sanda is an effective modern style of Chinese kickboxing. Shuai jiao is a jacket wrestling style similar to judo.

>>2816309
Imagine the yoga teacher never shut up about being able to beat the mma practitioner
>>2817536
MMA fag here its because most of us love fighting. And I would argue that most of us as children were taken in with wing chun, ninjitsu, jeet kun do and all those great movie arts and after learning enough about fighting we get annoyed that we were lied to. Since its our passion we don't want anyone else getting lied to. Sort of like we transfer the frustration of our own failures or we don't want others learning the same painful lesson we did.
>>2817751
Your wrong and you train like shit if you can kick a leg you can kick Dick. You train for precision and timing not to be a one trick pony who can only break boards.
>>2818070
Incorrect. If you think a self defense course can teach you anything you've probably been sold a crock of shit.
>>2818115
No you sir are an idiot. What makes you think you can beat a fighter at fighting?
>>2818119
No you train to make good decisions based on techniques you know under duress.

>>2818555
>Let's assume the same age and the guy who trained method B trained in a pocket dimension in which 10 years = 1 year in normal space.

I think a CMA guy who has trained under certain teachers could handle an mma guy with only six months or one year experience. That is with the caveat I mentioned that most could not

>Has a traditional CMA guy using only their CMA training methodologies been successful in any professional fighting promotion?

I'm not a CMA guy so most of the CMA fighters I know of were either famous men who are departed, or involved in sanda to some level. But I certainly know there have been CMA guys at the level to beat high level competitive martial artists

>uys who train with weapons that don't take ten years to get to a level of proficiency. If training with an infantry weapon took years to get to a level of proficiency then conscript/levy armies would never have existed.

It only takes a few months to gain proficiency with a sword or spear, but internalizing the principles and techniques of an entire style does take about ten years of hard study

And again, maintaining a classical syllabus does not necessarily preclude adopting modern methods or pressure testing or even drilling methods. Done right that can be adding on without taking away.

>>2819629
I mean the average blue-white collar guy/girl is not going to have that much time

>>2819780
you're a fucking faggot

>>2819975
Solid response very informative

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>>2816294
I mean apart from the cuck bit he's pretty much right. MMA fighters tend to be top class cunts, didn't one of them beat the living shit out of his porn star girlfriend? I'm pretty sure Conner McGreggor once told a Brazilian fighter if this was back in the day he would hunt him down on horseback in the Favela, and back in the day fighters used to grapple with other fighters and repeatedly strike their groin (I know it wasn't against the rules but common decency, its a sports fight not a gladiator match).
In answer to >>2813203 I'm pretty sure Chinese martial emphasize like self discipline, honour, restraint, and like monk shit. MMA doesn't as its literally a fighting sport for kicking, submitting, and punching the shit out of another man.
In a fight you would use MMA but I think learning a far east martial art is more for like channeling anger and finding "inner peace" which tbqh could be more useful as a life skill compared to MMA as most people go through life without having to fight in a hand to hand death match but almost everyone has an internal crisis in their life and suffers from certain vices.
Could and probably am absolutely wrong though, that's just what I have been told from different people.

>>2820192
challenge matches were a common part of Chinese martial arts even up to a few decades ago, within living memory at the least. and if someone got hurt in one of these matches it was their own fault for picking a fight in the first place.

I think this video, and those like it is evidence that most Chinese martial artists no longer train with an eye towards combat, but the things you talk about.

The same basic method will produce a different result with a different emphasis. Someone who knows he is going to get into a fight is going to train much harder and with a greater eye towards adapting to the unexpected than a guy who imagines fights but doesn't get into them.

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>>2820294
Huh, back in the day did Chinese martial artists challenge each other is duels like their European counterparts but without swords? Or was a challenge match just to hone skills and practice?

>>2820395
There were certainly holds bar fights, there where also simple tests of skill, like push hands, whoever stumbled or fell lost. And of course there were the famous lei Tai matches.

In general there was a time where someone running a public school could not easily refuse a challenge because it would hurt their reputation. As modern notions and more government scrutiny crept in and the arts became cultural pieces rather than fighting arts this practice died away. Push hands is still a thing, maybe some grappling, but unless the school is involved in sanda not much else.

This is just my view as an outsider fwiw

>>2815858
> Man is trained MMA fighter
> I do not fear, for I shall gauge out his eyes!
> I am knocked out while reaching for his eyes
Well, I fucking won that fight.

>>2818134
He's saying give them your money or just run.

>>2813428
And "slowed down" in martial arts translates into what? Getting beat the fuck up.

>>2820665
STarting at full speed is stupid, even in something like judo, at best you do the move at the expense of your balance, at worse you fuck it up totally.

you start slow and work your way up to speed.

>>2819575
>150 pound woman take down 320 pound man on PCP using pressure points

Uhhh have you never seen a female LEO try to deal with even an average sized man resisting arrest?

Also pressure points are bullshit and pain compliance techniques only work once you already have a dominant position over the other person. Just like any other joint lock submission.

Also many of the cops I know that train do BJJ.

>>2819835
>But I certainly know there have been CMA guys at the level to beat high level competitive martial artists
post proof

>>2819575
>nerve strikes
>150 pound female officer take down a 320 black dude coked up on PCP
Aka shit that never happens, real life isn't Star Trek and that nigger would fuck up that female to hell and back unless she was armed.

>>2820192
>In a fight you would use MMA but I think learning a far east martial art is more for like channeling anger and finding "inner peace" which tbqh could be more useful as a life skill compared to MMA as most people go through life without having to fight in a hand to hand death match but almost everyone has an internal crisis in their life and suffers from certain vices.

thats all well and good but then why do these CMA cucks act as if they are deadlier and more effective for combative situations? the TMA folk have a long standing history of boasting about their accomplishments while refusing to provide any sort of documentation for their efficacy as combat specialists. this fight between this deluded tai chi master and an MMA practitioner, who admittedly stated that he was inexperienced, was the result of said tai chi master boasting on the internet about the superiority of his art to MMA. after exposure, these CMA/TMA pussies will just claim that their fearsome combat system is just a spiritual system, while they conveniently forget their prior boasting and continue to peddle their bullshit to unsuspecting students. frankly it is just fraudulent to offer someone "self defense" courses, but then said instructors are unable to defend themselves in a fucking controlled environment.

>>2819575
cops train bjj. or at least non-retarded ones do.

source: i roll with cops

>>2821899

http://kogenbudo.org/i-htm/

"Wang was famous for his ability to take any blow below the neck—using soft power, not rigid muscular strength (like Donn with Muhammad Ali). He could allow you to punch him in the belly, and if he didn’t like you, ‘punch’ you back with his belly, sending the arm rocketing out of his flesh behind your ear, at such speed that it nearly dislocated. I personally saw him hug a Kyokushinkai karate champion, dropping him wheezing to the ground, ‘punched’ by Wang’s massive paunch, and this, only several months before his death from cancer. He could barely walk, but he could still make any part of his body a ‘fist,’ and drive through the man with a connected body augmented with an impeccable usage of ground and gravity"

>>2822039
lol this is rich. Great "source" by the way. It must suck that actual video available contradicts it.

>>2822135
Ellis amdur is a pretty respected martial artist and researcher. Ive even seen his work sighted by a college professor and academic.

> It must suck that actual video available contradicts it.

I would love to see the video of Wang Shu Jin being beaten

>>2813203
Martial arts is real, goy. Look at this guy who can knock people down without even touching them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&t=7s

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>>2822039
If you believe this you are delusional.
>>2820706
What this guy said, pain compliance only works if your opponent is a puss. If you have something inhibiting pain like drugs you are fucked. If you want the magic off switch to the body you have to strongly boop the chin with a fist like object.
>>2820001
Connor McGregor is selling the fight he's not a cunt if you were to meet him in real life. He's been married to the same woman since before he was famous and he just had a kid with her. Steve miocic is a fire fighter and has stated even if he wins the belt he won't stop being a fire fighter because he loves helping people.
>>2819629
Just an hour a day of bjj will help more than you understand. If this interests you please watch the first 10 ufc's where it is very style vs style and the hybridization hadn't happened yet. You see the clear dominance of bjj and you see it has very clear roots in actual combat that would help "in teh streetz".
>>2819575
Only bullets will stop Mr 320 pcp
>>2819291
Your friend is an idiot
>>2819239
It's the wrong mindset and I believe it is the key difference between western and eastern philosophy. Where the west prioritizes the results and the way prioritizes the"way" or tao or whatever. Long story short the rule set for mma was designed to show who had the best fighting system so now people keep messing with the balance of this and that to find the ideal mixture.
>>2819148
I used to love /asp/
>>2819143
I can't stand this is like selling someone a gun and telling them it will work when they need it. Then when it didn't work the salesmen claims it's for the criminals safety???
>>2819118
No no no, shit analogy because the TMAs get people hurt. I have no problem with them as a form of art or mediation but when you start making self defense claims then we have issues.
>>2819117
East vs west thought process and philosophical dichotomy?

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>>2823491
Being incredulous is fine, but its not really an argument. I am going to take it you have never met a high level internal guy. in isolation they can do things that seem magical, if you dont take the time to break down their movements and figure out what they are really doing. and some of them are great grappliers as well. The difference between them and a snake oil sales man is in the pudding.

>>2813594
>Soviet survivor Granny

>>2823491
>the rule set for mma was designed to show who had the best fighting system
Not exactly. To be more historically accurate, the rules were designed to favor BJJ, which is why
>You see the clear dominance of bjj

And no, I'm not shitposting. There are lots of articles about the foundations of UFC, and it's pretty clear that the Gracies saw it as marketing for BJJ. Even just reading Ken Shamrock's comments about UFC 1 makes that clear enough, since he's pretty honest about stating that Hoyce only beat him because the rules were in his favor (ex: he was allowed to use a gi, which is why he won with a gi choke, but Shamrock couldn't use wrestling shoes). And the Gracies had a long history of doing things like that, the Kimura match probably being the best example. If you're not aware of it, Helio made sure the ring's floor was so soft, throws wouldn't hurt him, so even though he was being slammed around like a rag doll, he was fine until Kimura had to break his arm to end the fight.

I'm not saying that means BJJ isn't effective. It is. For its specialty (groundighting), it's pretty much the best thing out there, and it's incredibly useful to know. But it's performance in the early days of UFC doesn't prove that it's the best martial. It just proves that the Gracies are very good at marketing.

>>2823491
>in actual combat "in teh streetz"
Most of the time, when you have a streetfight, the guys picking a fight will have friends come along. Going down on the ground to wrestle someone is the dumbest thing anyone can do in a streetfight. You're going to get your ass beat in, especially when you start getting the upper hand over their friend.
Also, the first 10 ufcs were one-on-one fights with no weapons.
The current rule set for MMA basically turned MMA into a sport. It's not a "best fighting system" at all.

>not practicing gunjutsu

>>2824614
Pretty sure there's an actual JMA that is gunjutsu in Japanese.

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>>2824621
Yeah, though my understanding is its all about things like how to wear armor, mix powder and handle various antique guns.

Not my cup of tea, kind of thing I would love to do a weekend seminar on but not dedicate my life to

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>>2820706
I knew some perfectly bad ass female cops. So much of what they do is simply a matter of presence: if you project domination and strength people are far more likely to do what you want. And any time there's a weight and reach advantage that person will have the upper hand. However, it is possible to focus on techniques which mitigate the benefits of size. No amount of weight lifting will make your shins, neck, or eyes any less vulnerable.
http://www.insideedition.com/headlines/22152-woman-uses-self-defense-techniques-she-learned-weeks-earlier-to-fight-off-sex-offender

>>2821912
>real life isn't Star Trek
Never said it was, but try taking a nightstick in the Sciatic nerve a few times and see how interested you still are in standing up and resisting arrest

>Also many of the cops I know that train do BJJ.
>>2821954
cops train bjj.
>>2823491
Brazilian JiuJitsu is a great complementary training program for police officers. Its entire repertoire of moves are designed to incapacitate rather than inflict injury, so BJJ practitioners can go full tilt at each other without having to worry about injuring their gym-mates, and cops can get an assailant on the ground without the liability that comes with actually hurting the person you're trying to subdue.

but as this anon says, >>2824607 BJJ has its limitations. BJJ was dominating the Octogon until people stopped tuning in because matches were devolving into two dudes locked in a grappling position on the ground for 10+ minutes of nothing happening but both fighters slowly trying to gain leverage and grind their opponent down through sheer attrition, which was leading to very boring uninteresting matches, so they retooled the rules to be friendlier towards strikers.

And street fights rarely go to ground. You don't want to be that close to someone who might start fighting dirty.

>>2826002
The thing about police combatives is they are constantly changing, often based on what ever is new or hot at the time.

There was a time when japanese Jujutsu, later aikido variants were popular, then bjj is popular now. the common thread between all of those is grappling techniques that restrain rather than kill tend to be very well suited for police needs.

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>>2818540

orientalism BTFO!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzixL7Ef-bI

>>2818573
ok?

>>2818540
>Asians really do love this image of themselves as mystical, inscrutable people with exclusive, secret cultures that nobody can understand.

This. Just listen to Chinese talk constantly about how "China has 5000 years of history that you laowai couldn't possibly understand".

HEMA & WMA are LARPs.

Prove me wrong.

>Protip: You can't.

>>2827286
define larp.

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Is Kendo bullshit or can I make pic related a reality?

>>2813652
what do you think of japanese jiujitsu and it's little brother Brazilian Jiu jitsu

>>2813652
Judo is fairly modern actually.
T. Judoka

Follow-up:

>Wei also made comments after fight, stating that the only reason he lost to Xu was because he was showing mercy and refraining from using his ‘internal strength.’ Wei reportedly said he feared Xu would be killed, had he used his full array of skills.

>After brutally dispatching Wei, Xu told the onlookers that the fight wasn’t competitive and that Tai Chi was a ‘sham.’ According to ejinisght this prompted a number of Tai Chi masters to circle Xu and challenge him to a rematch. Reportedly, Xu ended up calling police after the Tai Chi proponents continued to argue with him for around half an hour. Later Xu turned to Chinese social media platform Weibo to double-down on his criticism of Tai Chi, stating that traditional martial arts styles were ‘a lie’ and that they had no use in actual combat or self defense.

>The Straits Times states that Xu also posted an open challenge to martial artists to prove him wrong. On Weibo, Xu stated that he would take on any and all traditional martial artists in a no rules contest (including kicks to the groin and eye pokes). Xu also said he would pay 1.2 million yuan ($174,000) to anyone who beats him.

100 eurodollars he'll be forced into an apology by the government

>>2827591
The Chinese government is propped up on bullshit and lies. This is evidentiary through their martial arts.

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>>2827528
Kendo is essentially the japanese equivalent of western fencing, albeit its alot closer to its roots.

The martial arts samurai would have actually studied are known as koryu, old schools.

>>2813262
>>To be fair though, the MMA guy was a bit of a faggot.
well numales are retards by nature, you cannot expect the contrary

>>2827591
That's bullshit, I know people who train "internal strength and happily do grappling and striking arts. It makes you more stable, not superman.

This statement alone makes me think he doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to taiji

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>>2820706
>Also many of the cops I know that train do BJJ.

https://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009/08/16/1929-hangzhou-leitai-tournament/

>Liu Gaosheng was famous in Shanghai for his mastery of iron palm and Ziranmen (Natural Gate); he was the head trainer of security guards for Shanghai’s 4 largest department stores and had close to 3,000 students, and was one of the favourites to win the tournament. Liu was not only a master of iron palm, he was also adept at hard qigong. Meeting such a tough opponent in the first round put Cao under pressure. At the beginning of the bout, Liu immediately launched a palm strike at Cao. Cao took the strike, thinking to gauge Liu’s power, only to find that half his body went numb – he could barely withstand it!

>Fortunately,Cao was calm under pressure and didn’t crumble. He took a deep breath, shook himself and hurriedly changed his tactics. Instead of taking Liu on head-on, Cao evaded as much as possible, trying to use sweeps and low kicks to attack Liu’s legs. This tactic helped Cao to go on the offensive. In the second round, Cao saw his opportunity and laid Liu out with a punch, winning the match. The next day, Zhao asked Liu how he could have lost: Liu was so vexed he punched the ground, breaking a brick in half, saying “Dammit, dammit”.

>Purely from looking at the results, Liu Gaosheng’s gongfu was no match for Cao Yanhai; but Cao Yanhai could not split a brick – how can we explain this result? The reason is, Cao Yanhai often sparred, so he was good at adapting his tactics. Liu, on the other hand, rarely fought: day-to-day practice only involved testing his palm strikes, which of course most normal people could not withstand. In the bout, even though Liu’s palm strikes were devastatingly powerful, he could not hit Cao, instead being knocked down. Thus, one should not mistake hard qigong for combat skill. In a real encounter, the winner will be he who reacts faster, hits harder.

>>2813203
Tai Chi? That shit old grannies do?

Why the fuck would some MMA guy celebrate beating up a tai chi 'master'.?

To be fair, many Tai Chi forms are just that, forms. There's a gymnastic aspect to it I suppose but imagine in 200 years of playing telephone someone reinterprets jumping jacks and mountain climbers as fighting forms.

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>>2829296
>In a real encounter, the winner will be he who reacts faster, hits harder.