Sparta

>>2794040
Because they were. There Persians had culture and treated their citizens well. The Spartans left babies they didn't think we're tough enough to fight in a forest to die. Also, despite being considered the fathers of democracy, they were also where the word tyrant comes from

They literally were
Reminder that literally no primary sources from actual Spartans exist

>>2794228
>they were also where the word tyrant comes from
nah man, Peisistratos was characterised as a tyrant back then, we used that word differently.

>>2794232
Thank (((them))) for that. (((They))) don't want us realizing Spartans came from germany

>>2794228
>spartans
>considered the fathers of democracy

Tyrant was what Greeks called any usurper of a legitimate government

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>>2794237
Germans weren't in Germany at that time period

>>2794237
its because spartans were illiterate niggers who hardly had a currency system

>>2794232

>They literally were

Were--what? And sources?

>>2794228


>Persians had culture and treated their citizens well

And Sparta was the hegemon of an entire confederacy that treated that respected them and looked to them for leadership without any kind of imposition. Which I would say is superior to some self-serving empire.

Not that it even matters, because that's not the point I was trying to make. Even if you argued that the Spartans were worse than the Persians on a cultural level, you can't argue that they were a greater threat to Athens and the other city states.

It's absurd to think that this city state that was revered my almost all of its neighbors that won a war from a position of complete disadvantage, should only be treated as a parochial belligerent that won the war just because the "other side lost," as if the Athenians were fighting by themselves.

>>2794040
They were regressive boogeymen who were notorious for being easy to corrupt. And catious when it came to battle, they didn't like to leave laconia.

The wide difference between the two characters, the slowness and want of energy of the Spartans as contrasted with the dash and enterprise of their opponents, proved of the greatest service, especially to a maritime empire like Athens. Indeed this was shown by the Syracusans, who were most like the Athenians in character, and also most successful in combating them.-Thucydides.


1

„If the Spartans‟ city were to become deserted, and only the temples and foundations of
buildings were left, I think that the people of that time far in the future would find it difficult to believe that
the Spartans‟ power had been as great as their fame implied (and yet they
inhabit two-fifths of the Peloponnese, and are in command of all of it as well as of many allies outside it; nevertheless, it has not been merged (synoecised) into a city, nor does it possess costly temples and buildings, but consists of a number of villages in the early Greek manner, and would seem an inferior place), whereas if the same thing were to happen to Athens, from its visible remains one would assume that the city had been twice as powerful as
it actually is.‟

Thucydides 1.10.2

Sparta literally was war:the state for a very good reason, they had to subdue a slave population many times greater than their own
some stimates go as far to claim that while there where 50.000 spartans living in SParta at its peak, there were 300.000 eilotes (slaves).
You can see why they did what they did.Although in later years came corruption of their system and they became pretty much irrelevant.

>>2794040
>And then you have those fucks that keep talking about how Spartans were gay, even though all textual evidence states the contrary.
Go read up Plutarch's lives, specifically Agesilaus. You can literally see homosexuality on the second page.

> While he was among the so‑called "bands" of boys who were reared together, he had as his p5lover Lysander

Or stuff like this.

>Spithridates also, from the time when he abandoned Pharnabazus and came to Agesilaüs, always accompanied him in his journeys and expeditions. Spithridates had a son, a very beautiful boy, named Megabates, of whom Agesilaüs was ardently enamoured, and a beautiful daughter also, a maiden of marriageable age.

>>2794246
that's right, we were in rome and egypt and greece and shit

>>2794251
>you can't argue that they were a greater threat to Athens and the other city states
yes you can
why do you think Athens allied with the Achaemenids after the Corinthian war

>>2794260
no

>>2794259
They literally sold out greece to Persia to try and win the 2nd peloponessian war (which they started)

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>>2794255

>The wide difference between the two characters, the slowness and want of energy of the Spartans as contrasted with the dash and enterprise of their opponents, proved of the greatest service, especially to a maritime empire like Athens. Indeed this was shown by the Syracusans, who were most like the Athenians in character, and also most successful in combating them.-Thucydides.

I guess that explains why the Spartans lost the---

Oh.

Oh, no!

>>2794260
hell yeah brother!
teach these cucks the truth

>>2794267
this is why I will never respect spartaboos
the state they love so much because of its alleged patriotism didn't hesitate a second to sell out in order to win a war they were the aggressor to begin with.

>>2794269
Spartans had way more allies and help and >>2794267

The Athenian citizens also fucked things up multiple times by being dumb as fuck and still almost won with alcibiades before they kicked him out as well.

>>2794279
don't forget the plague
And Alkibiades was a troll.

>>2794259

Wew, lad. Yeah, let's quote the one thing out of context and forget the rest of what's written where he explicitly states physical relationships of any kind were seen as a crime.

>Affectionate regard for boys of good character was permissible, but embracing them was held to be disgraceful, on the ground that the affection was for the body and not for the mind. Any man against whom complaint was made of any disgraceful embracing was deprived of all civic rights for life.

>>2794264

And what is that supposed to show? Like I said, the Spartans won the war, and it did little to harm Athens. Do you imagine it would've been the same if the Medes succeeded in taking Greece from the beginning? Of course not. Spartans were Greeks.

>>2794265
fuck off to r*dditshill

>>2794286
>and it did little to harm Athens
nah man, it prevented Athens from being relevant ever again

>>2794246
umm, proof sweetie?

Spartans were Dorians, it was the Dorians that built the greatest architectural wonders, this is what enamored Rome to the Greeks.

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>>2794292
you first

>>2794286
>And what is that supposed to show
That the Persians weren't some boogeyman to the Greeks, but just another political actor. The Greeks were completely willing to work with them on a number of occasions
>the Spartans won the war, and it did little to harm Athens
and the army of Darius paid homage to Delos, what's your point?

>>2794299
/r/the_donald is a colony of ours, i can go there as i please.
you cuck, you cannot!

>>2794285
Saved their ass though after sicilian expedition and prevented the fleet from attacking the council of 400 led Athens.

>>2794297
WE WUZ SPARTANS

>>2794296
you first my man

>>2794310

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Wars#Dorian_Greeks_become_dominant_in_Sicily

>>2794310
They litererally were dorians and it's more like

we wuz dorians, since dorians were older then sparta

>>2794260
WE

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>spartans are uncivilised and never achieved anyt-
holy shit! btfo!
damn spartans were strong...

>>2794297

No, it was Athens that built the greatest Greek glories, and the Athenians have been there since before there WERE Greeks (they began as a tribe of Pelasgians who adopted Greek Mycenean culture)

>>2794286
>context
>602
This is said to have annoyed Agesilaüs beyond all else. For he was pained at the loss of a gallant man in Spithridates, and with him of a considerable force, and was ashamed to labour under the charge of pettiness and illiberality, from which he was always ambitious to keep not only himself, but also his country, pure and free. 5 And apart from these manifest reasons, he was irritated beyond measure by his love for the boy, which was now instilled into his heart, although when the boy was present he would summon all his resolution and strive mightily to battle against his desires. Indeed, when Megabates once came up and offered to embrace and kiss him he declined his caresses. 6 The boy was mortified at this, and desisted, and afterwards kept his distance when addressing him, whereupon Agesilaüs, distressed now and repentant for having avoided his kiss, pretended to wonder what ailed Megabates that he did not greet him with a kiss. "It is thy fault," the king's companions said; "thou didst not accept, but didst decline the fair one's kiss in feature and trembling; yet even now he might be persuaded to come within range of thy lips; but see that thou dost not again play the coward." 7 Then, after some time spent in silent reflection, Agesilaüs said: "There is no harm in your persuading him; for I think I would more gladly fight that battle of the kiss over again than possess all the gold I have ever seen." Of such a mind was he while Megabates was with him, though when the boy was gone, he was so on fire with love for him that it were hard to say whether, had the boy come back into his presence, he would have had the strength to refuse his kisses.20

Look how disapproving his court is over the practice. Read some fucking sources, you ultranigger.

>>2794322
Alexander wasn't a Spartan

>>2794307
ok
>>2794309
Well he did do that, but he was constantly plotting shit.He was not to be trusted, he attention whored to levels not fathomable, dude was rumored to have fucked dogs in order to gain attention, when he didn't get enough.

>>2794327
>this is the state of /his/
read a book, cupcake.

>>2794334
The royal house of Macedonia was supposedly descended from Argos not Sparta

>>2794313
germania
germani
german
germany

Really makes you think huh?

>>2794322
>sparta being part of the kingdom
ΠΛΗΝΛΑΚΕΔΑΙΜΟΝΙΩΝ for a reason.

>>2794338
Alexander was leonidas' son
you know, the freaking awesome spartan warrior?

>>2794303

>The Greeks were completely willing to work with them on a number of occasions.

And I take no issue with that. But you would work with an enemy too, if it suited your purposes, even against a family member. That doesn't mean you would sooner be ruled over by an enemy than a family member.

Bad analogy, but you get my point.

>>2794295

And you blame that on the Spartans? Seriously? I can think of many people that had a far worse fate than the Athenians and managed to come back with a vengeance. Maybe the leniency was what got them in the end. Exhaustion and no real motivation to go on. But I wouldn't put that on the Germa--Spartans, I mean.

>>2794344
Alexander was Phillip II's son

>>2794350
umm, no he wasn't honey :)

>>2794350
hook line and sinker.

>>2794346
Well yeah, the athenian state was pretty hedonistic at the time and it had been going up for way too long, it had to fall sometime
But I don't think the fall would be so sudden, if you will, if the war didn't happen.
It wasn't jut the war, it was a combination of war, plague, the 30 tyrants, and general lack of motivation like you said.

>>2794346
>But you would work with an enemy too, if it suited your purposes, even against a family member
My point is that they weren't considered an enemy any more than the Spartans. The Ionian revolt literally started because Aristagoras tried to ingratiate himself with Darius. The Spartans used Persian naval power at the end of the Peloponnesian war and Athens took a lot of money from them in 395

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>>2794324
Yet the Parthenon uses the Doric Order.

pic related = Doric influence in Italy.

>>2794325

And what is this supposed to prove? I give you evidence of the practices in Sparta as a whole, and you give me some anecdote about one particular Spartan.

Do you judge nations based on their laws, or based on what one random guy that does?

Think for a second. Employ the brain God gave you.

>>2794358
How was Athens hedonistic.

>Inb4 boylover meme.

>>2794364
And yet why did Dorians never create anything as magnificent as the Parthenon?

>>2794366
Spartans Were somewhat known for diddling boys, it was frowned upon but they were also known for doing it nonetheless.

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>>2794368

Every house had shit like pic related in front of it.

>>2794362

I feel the word enemy here isn't very telling. Yes, you could probably argue they weren't considered more of an "enemy." But that doesn't mean them conquering the Hellenes would've been of the same equivalent of Sparta establishing a hegemony.

>>2794368
Cyrene was influenced by Athenian philosophy and way of living.

>>2794376
My point is that Spartans were as much (if not more) of a threat to Athens as the Persians and that there wasn't some inherent hatred of the Persian Empire amongst the Greeks

>>2794373
Firstly google what hedonistic means, secondly that was symbolic.

>>2794371

This is retarded to say. Every society that ever existed had some fag diddling a boy. Fags are everywhere.

That doesn't mean that Sparta as a culture condoned it. They clearly disapproved of it to a greater extent than other city states.

No one is so stupid as to think there weren't any fags in Sparta. That's not the point here.

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>>2794369

You don't know much, do you?

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valle_dei_Templi

All Doric btw

>>2794366
No, you gave "evidence" that they said they disapproved of the practice. You have heard of the term hypocrisy, yes?

I judge people based on what they do, not the ideals they profess, especially when those ideals are flagrantly violated and nobody gives a shit.

Doubly so when you have things like their marriage ceremonies butching up their women as much as possible because spartans aren't used to fucking girls and might think it's icky. And let's not forget the claim made (by you?) in the OP.

> even though all textual evidence states the contrary.
But as soon as some text is cited, you start moving the fucking goalposts, because you're a retard.

>>2794380
so you're syaing greeks were #persianswelcome cucks?
baka, DROPPED
time to worship carthage again, they were truly based

>>2794384
Where is the proof that they actually enforced the laws? We have no way to say that the lover/beloved system wasn't sexual

>>2794384
but Sparta had a REPUTATION for having that particular issue. It was officially condemned but evidently was fairly common.

>>2794385
magna grecia was its own thing pretty much, but whatever

>>2794389
Carthage was literally a Semitic merchant colony trying to destroy stronk Rome by getting North Africans to invade Italy

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>>2794405

I should create a tripcode to show the amount of times my arguments end like this.


>but whatever

>>2794385
>as magnificent as the parthenon
You really don't know how to read, so I guess I know more than you

>>2794403

It's called "slander" you dense prick. The Spartan Constitution is very clear that homosex was outlawed, this is the same constitution that the Spartans so slavishly followed to their ultimate demise, if you want to suggest they simply ignored the very clear prohibition against faggotry while making something of a religion out of following all the rest, then you'll need to provide some evidence. And no, the slander of their enemies doesn't count as evidence.

>>2794413
I am not him idiot
That temple is nowhere near the Parthenon's level of mastery
You are too eager to prove everyone wrong.

>>2794411
Carthage means 'nordic' in ancient carthaginian
romans destroyed this to cover up that they were blood brothers
nice try

>>2794416
How about primary sources like Xenophon (A massive fucking spartaboo) Thucydides, or Plutarch. They had a reputation throughout Greece, deserved... that's debatable.

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>>2794414
>>2794419


> Valle dei Templi is largest archaeological site in the world

> largest archaeological site in the world

> largest in the world

> world

>>2794387

You judge people based on what they do going by one account of one person that stretches back into the depths of time?

Yeah, sounds legit, man.

I don't move goalposts. Your mind is clearly not meant to think critically. You're assuming that a thing that occurs naturally in every single human population is somehow proof that one society in particular was IN FAVOR of homosexual practices. The two do not add up.

>>2794393

>where is proof that they enforced the laws

This society that's known primarily for being strict as fuck and lawful? I wonder... What a silly argument.

>>2794403

A reputation given to them by whom, exactly? Certainly not people that were friends of Sparta.

>I think I ought to say something also about intimacy with boys, since this matter also has a bearing on education. In other Greek states, for instance among the Boeotians, man and boy live together, like married people; elsewhere, among the Eleians, for example, consent is won by means of favours. Some, on the other hand, entirely forbid suitors to talk with boys.
The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other.

Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians

Didn't most ancient civs fugg boys?

>>2794364

Do you imagine that the Gothic cathedrals of Europe were built by or inspired by the Goths? The Spartans didn't invent the doric column, it was just the latest variant on an ancient design that is named (by us) "doric" because of the period when it first showed up, NOT because it was "invented by Dorians".

>>2794416
What's the big deal with spartan men fucking boys anyway it doesn't diminish their accomplishments, its fucking 2017 and it was consensual.

>>2794421

It literally just means "New Town".

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>>2794428
>large
>the same as magnificent
READ

>>2794435

The "big deal" is that it's simply not true. I know, fancy caring about truth, afterall this IS the Current Year amirite?

>>2794435

The point is that normie historians talk about it as if it was a thing encouraged by the actual ruling body of the state, which it was not. It's not about homosexuality being good or bad, but about whether or not Sparta is depicted accurately.

It's clear from all the evidence we have that Spartans (whether or not they took it up the bum) did not approve of homosexuality publicly.

>>2794429
>This society that's known primarily for being strict as fuck and lawful? I wonder... What a silly argument.
That's literally based on the reputation that Xenophon, Plutarch and Thucydides gave them. Why do you believe them then but ignore them otherwise?

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>>2794431

>>2794318

>>2794416
>this is the same constitution that the Spartans so slavishly followed to their ultimate demise
Oh look, the retarded spartaboo once again shows his complete ignorance of history. Remember that one about how they banned coinage, but then started using it as soon as the peloponeasean war turned nasty? Remember how in the agoge system, they encouraged breaking the rules and not getting caught? (You got flogged not for stealing the food, but for not being stealthy enough at getting it). Remember how no archeologists have ever discovered a sussitia? Remember how a king is supposed to be succeeded by the oldest child who was born after he took the throne and how they basically never did that?

>>2794444

What are you trying to say, thicky? Use your words.

>>2794448
wait till he googles his next point

>>2794446

I'm not a spartaboo, but I find your contempt for truth utterly disgusting.

>>2794429
>You judge people based on what they do going by one account of one person that stretches back into the depths of time?
As opposed to a statement of their constitution by a figure that might or might not have actually existed, which also only exists in one account?


>I don't move goalposts.
Yes you did, retard.
>Claim there is no evidence of spartan gayness
>Provide evidence
>Yeah, well, that's just an isolated incident, it doesn't count!

> You're assuming that a thing that occurs naturally in every single human population is somehow proof that one society in particular was IN FAVOR of homosexual practices.
No, that is not what I said or ever implied. Learn to read.

>>2794442
Obviously it wasn't endorsed but it was fairly common, even Xenephon a massive spartaboo had to defend sparta from these allegations and even he admitted there was at the very least an "idealised friendship" (read romantic love) it iosn't hard to see how this could sometimes lead to sexual relations (especially considering how little time they got to spend with wives)

>>2794430
>>2794430
>>2794430
>>2794430
>>2794430
>>2794430
stop arguing about boyfucking

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wikipedia is filled with fake pedo article

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>>2794464

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>>2794448

> referential integrity
> using google to search

Use one, and use wisely.

>>2794443

>Why do you believe them then but ignore them otherwise?

I don't ignore them in any way. I've already said that the fact that one Spartan fucked another says nothing to me. I wouldn't even care if they all fucked each other up the ass during training.

I'm sure that it happened, and it may have even happened more frequently than in other places given the segregation of the sexes. But it was still FROWNED UPON AND UNLAWFUL.

Guys in Russian prisons blow each other regularly too, I'm sure, and they have as many fags as we do. Does that mean that Russia is ENCOURAGING homosexuality? ACTIVELY AGAINST IT.

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>>2794450

In a rush, gotta leave now, left you this to ponder
>>2794467

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>>2794467
>posting links is your own argument

>>2794467

So what you're trying to say is that you're profoundly retarded? Okay, opinion disregarded!

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>>2794475
>In a rush
oh I bet anon

>>2794451
>I'm not a spartaboo,
And yet you talk and act like one.

>but I find your contempt for truth utterly disgusting.
What contempt for the truth? You're the one who has made the completely baseless claim that they were famous for strictly adhering to their laws. I've pointed out that part and parcel of their universal education system is breaking the rules and not getting caught.

>>2794480
It's okay, he was just pretending.

>>2794472
>FROWNED UPON AND UNLAWFUL.
and that means jack shit when you have a system that turns the other way when the lovers fuck their beloveds
Why are Spartaboos so autistic?

>>2794485

No, he wasn't. He really is a fucking halfwit.

>>2794483
>And yet you talk and act like one.

I've told you I'm not, you choose not to accept that I know what I am better than you are, this conversation is over. Go fuck yourself.

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>>2794472
>I'm sure that it happened, and it may have even happened more frequently than in other places given the segregation of the sexes. But it was still FROWNED UPON AND UNLAWFUL.

>>2794493
>I've told you I'm not,
And yet you get absolutely anallyflustered about any accusation about your precious spartans being boyfuckers.

Should we be believing all those stormfags who talk endlessly about how the holocaust didn't happen, any deaths were caused by allied bombing, but the Jews all deserved it for being commies and parasites when they say they're not anti-semitic?

> you choose not to accept that I know what I am better than you are,
I see, based on this thread alone, that you're a deluded and retarded liar.

> this conversation is over.
You won't be able to stop yourself replying. Your anuspain won't let you.

>>2794457

It's not my fault you're so autistic as to think that any human being would ever imply that homosexuality is absent in any society.

I don't by any means consider what you gave "evidence" of anything. We can find plenty of Romans that do unroman things. There are plenty of American Marxists and Neo-Nazis. That hardly changes the founding values of American life.

why does every Ancient Greece thread devolves into boipucci debate

>>2794510
people get butthurt over buttfucking

>>2794508
>It's not my fault you're so autistic as to think that any human being would ever imply that homosexuality is absent in any society.
That is also not what I said. Learn to read. Here's a hint, it's in the OP

>even though all textual evidence states the contrary.

>I don't by any means consider what you gave "evidence" of anything.
Yes, we get that you're very stupid.

> We can find plenty of Romans that do unroman things.
And full crowds of cheering romans helping them achieve their aims of doing unroman things?

>There are plenty of American Marxists and Neo-Nazis. That hardly changes the founding values of American life.
And who says that the founding values are the current values? I guess the USSR was really a workers paradise, because that was the espoused goals and desires of its founding leaders, and we should ignore everything that they did that ran contrary?

>this conversation is over.
Hahahahaha

>>2794040
have you seen 300? they where da shit

>>2794510
because the boipucci is so illuring

>>2794525

>Hahahahaha

I hope you know you were talking with a different guy. Being so autistic, I would hope you can at least pick up on different anons.

Anyway, yes, all textual evidence does state the contrary: that the Spartan state in no way condoned homosexuality, and actively kept laws against it.

What is your point, again? Do you think I didn't know about the anecdotes strewn here and there?

That doesn't change what Sparta stands for.

>And full crowds of cheering romans helping them achieve their aims of doing unroman things?

Again, your point? You seem to care more about what "The People" do over what the people in charge of the state decided they should do, and what their own image of their society was.

I'm sure that if you interviewed a Spartan, even a fag, he would think he was the picture of manliness and that homosexual love was abhorrent. Just as a Roman would say breaking the law is the worst crime and that Rome only started wars in self-defense.

>And who says that the founding values are the current values?

Aren't they? I was under the assumption that America still stood for freedom and liberty for all and individualism. Granted, I'm not American.

>I guess the USSR was really a workers paradise, because that was the espoused goals and desires of its founding leaders, and we should ignore everything that they did that ran contrary?

There is a difference here, I feel. The USSR's mythology was not based in actual law. Often, the laws were contradictory to the very thing they wanted to embody.

In the case of the Spartans, you have a society that is against homosexuality, and that embodies this belief by keeping laws against it.

>>2794595
>I hope you know you were talking with a different guy. Being so autistic, I would hope you can at least pick up on different anons.
Yes, like how you both have that put a space in between single lines, before you reply to a post, and the same talking points.

>Anyway, yes, all textual evidence does state the contrary: that the Spartan state in no way condoned homosexuality, and actively kept laws against it.
Not what OP claimed, and no, not what all textual evidence states. When the king's advisory council is telling him how to get in a boy's pants, that shows the uinversal condemnation that was held for the practice.

>What is your point, again? Do you think I didn't know about the anecdotes strewn here and there?
My point is that no, not "all textual evidence" states that, and yes, I'm actually pretty sure you didn't know about this stuff, because you're profounly ignorant about other things involving Sparta, like how they "rigidly kept to their constitution".

>Again, your point? You seem to care more about what "The People" do over what the people in charge of the state decided they should do, and what their own image of their society was.
No shit sherlock. Because what people DO is much more reflective of their actual values than what they say their values are. That's why I'm sure you're a spartaboo, despite you saying that you're not.

>I'm sure that if you interviewed a Spartan, even a fag, he would think he was the picture of manliness and that homosexual love was abhorrent. Just as a Roman would say breaking the law is the worst crime and that Rome only started wars in self-defense.
And I'm sure that if you interviewed a Soviet commissar, they'd say that only cowards and deserters and capitalist infiltrators get shot. So what? A society being hypocritical or in denial of its actual values doesn't make it stated values the ones it lives by.

>>2794595

>Aren't they? I was under the assumption that America still stood for freedom and liberty for all and individualism. Granted, I'm not American.
There has been significant drift; for starters, we're no longer a confederation of sovereign states that the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to, for starters.

>There is a difference here, I feel. The USSR's mythology was not based in actual law. Often, the laws were contradictory to the very thing they wanted to embody.
Sure it was. They had lots of laws. Show me a Soviet law that was contradictory to what they wanted to embody.

>In the case of the Spartans, you have a society that is against homosexuality, and that embodies this belief by keeping laws against it.
And then not enforcing them, creating a culture of innocent until caught and literally teaching rule breaking in "school", and significant actual pederasty with no evidence of people facing consequences for it.

>>2794638

>rigidly kept to their constitution

Again, wasn't me that you're responding to.

>That's why I'm sure you're a spartaboo, despite you saying that you're not.

Again, wrong anon.

>Yes, like how you both have that put a space in between single lines, before you reply to a post

I don't know about that. Maybe it's an autism we share in common.

>Because what people DO is much more reflective of their actual values than what they say their values are.

Maybe, maybe not. I would argue that would people do depends very much on the circumstances they're in. A hungry person is going to do just about anything regardless of what his actual values are.

>And I'm sure that if you interviewed a Soviet commissar, they'd say that only cowards and deserters and capitalist infiltrators get shot.

And that's where you're wrong. I live in Romania. I've had relatives that worked with the commies. You're deeply misinformed if you think anyone working for them (or even the people in the party itself) believed the things the propaganda tried to spread. In fact, almost every person I know that worked with the commies thought that shit was wrong, and did it only because they had to in order to survive.


For the record, I'm not a fan of the Spartans. In fact, I'm an Athenian fanboy. But that doesn't mean that the Spartans condoned faggotry.

I have to sleep, but I want to make that clear before we conclude the conversation. You may say that the Spartans were fags, and going by your criteria, I guess they are. But for a historian to go in front of an ignorant audience and to state glib anecdotes about how the Spartans were into pederasty and homosexual relationships without making any mention of the actual stance of the state on such things is incredibly disingenuous. And you would be lying if you said this doesn't happen to Spartans in particular.

>>2794714
>You're deeply misinformed if you think anyone working for them (or even the people in the party itself) believed the things the propaganda tried to spread.
That's not what I said. I didn't say they BELIEVED the values. I'd say that they'd SAY the values if interviewed. What people say is a very, very poor indicator of what they really believe.

>And you would be lying if you said this doesn't happen to Spartans in particular.
I don't think it was something that happened to Spartans in particular. Hypocrisy extends to pretty much every culture I'm aware of. I just think it's dumb to point to a constitution by a probably totally mythic character which is only related by an outsider almost 650 years after it was supposedly written as proof positive of what some transcendental, unchaning Spartan values were, and then ignore all evidence to the point that the Spartans didn't actually live that way.

>>2794429
>connexion

Holy shit, why didnt anyone tell me its still the 1700s

Spartans were no different from germanics. Only fighting nothing else. They lived in barracks until like 30 year old warmongers.

>>2794040
Greeks thought the faggot was the bottom only.

>>2794040
Muh Thirty Tyrants