How is only one of these a hate symbol?

>>2792565
Because Nazis lost the war. If the Soviet Union was the enemy of our current hegemonic society during WW2, the hammer and sickle would be as horrific as the Swastika.

>>2792565
Hi Jordan

>>2792565

Because only one of them is a hate symbol. Nazism is inherently hateful. Communism is deeply retarded but it its ultimate goal is everyone getting along.

>>2792565
For Nazis, mass slaughter, subjugation, and totalitarianism is a necessary objective. All this only happens under communist regimes when things go very wrong.

>>2792576
The people in charge now grew up with the USSR as the worlds chief advisery though.

>>2792565
Hate symbol is a term used to refer to ideologies that promote hate to a certain ethnicity and communism doesn't inherently due that (though the regimes that implemented it often did).

>>2792587
...which they invariably do.
The indifference and criminal negligence of the soviet jews killed atleast an order of magnitude more people than the malice of nazi party.
Do people really argue "intent vs impact" ove 100 million dead?

>>2792598
But the USSR never started any world wars. All of their major atrocities also happened before the Cold War.

The publication of materials concerning the Gulag system and the Ukrainian famine during the 60s and 70s certainly worsened perceptions of the USSR, killing off swaths of the radical left, but it's harder to rile people up about past atrocities than about massacres happening right now.

>>2792608
Religion was literally banned and priests were killed under the hammer and sickle, not because of some rogue interpretation - but because of the dogmas of marx and lenin.
Get a lot of UAF using the hammer and sickle to defend islam - profound demonstration of ignorance.

Depends where you live. If you post from a country that doesn't know European history then the nazis were bigger evil. For thos who experienced both they are equaly bad and hateful.

>>2792631
>But the USSR never started any world wars

WWII. Together with Germany.

>>2792565
Neither of those are hate symbols.

>>2792654
>the USSR started WWII

>>2792658
withouth the forbidden sign, I guess ;)

>>2792663
>invading Poland, the Baltic states, and Finland is not "starting a war".

>>2792663
Yes. Hitler attacked Poland because he had a secure peace (and basically alliance) with USSR. He wouldn't have attacked without it. Both Hitler and Stalin agreed to divide Europe among themselves which they did. Therefore USSR is guilty of being Germany's co-conspirator against world peace.

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>>2792612
Absolutely false, even if you attribute every single death by famine to the Soviet Union (which is ludicrous), you get a statistic of 20 million at the very highest, from 1927 to 1952. Earlier, higher estimates were based on Cold War era assumptions and guided by ideology. Even viciously right-wing historians such as Robert Conquest have admitted that estimates above 20 million are no longer considered accurate.

This bodycount completely dwarfed by the crimes of the Nazi Party, an organization which tried to destroy many of the world's nations in their second world war. In just six years, the Nazis killed unquestionably more civilians than did the Soviet Union, and none of these happened by potentially natural factors but were instead direct killings by bullet, bomb, and gas. When allied combatant deaths are considered, we get a statistic of 40-50 million. This does not even consider the German civilians and soldiers whose death warrant Hitler signed when he brought the country into war.

Calling the USSR Jewish is ridiculous, but especially so after Stalin's ascension... the period in which these mass atrocities happened.

>>2792670
It wasn't a world war. The objective for this conquest was to gain strategically defensible territory in the event of a Nazi invasion, which Stalin believed to be inevitable.

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>>2792692
>lol let's conquer this land between our countries you take this half I take this half
>lol ok


Years later soviet apologists will claim that this was totally justified and totally without any agreement with Hitler no sir. Nobody could ever answer why would two countries that didn't share a border even need a non-aggression pact.

>>2792612
>which they invariably do
What? There have been dozens of communist governments, yet only those guided by Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot organized substantial democide. Atrocities in North Korea didn't exceed those of the South until they abandoned communist ideology.

The problem is not communist ideology, but the authoritarian tradition of Stalinism, of which Lenin laid the unfortunate foundations, that allows one man (regardless of character) to reorganize society as he sees fit. This same problem is replicated in innumerable rightist dictatorships, most notably Indonesia under Soeharto or South Korea under Rhee Syng-Man.

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>mfw fascism will be forever known as the shittiest ideology ever conceived

>>2792707
The only better about Lenin when comparing him to Stalin is that he died early. There's something about this bolshevik period of Soviet Russia/USSR that is just so creepy. The language they used, their fanaticism, their crimes. Like unwashed barbarians who suddenly decided that people are gonna be like ants from now on.

>>2792719
communism at least lifted millions out of abject poverty and won some rights for women and minorities

Fascism just builds highways and loses wars

>>2792684
dude your ruining his ride man, let him speak, this is HIStory not YOURstory

>>2792739
To be honest I'm just laughing at the fact that it can't even make itself look good in comparison to its worst enemy, it's antithesis. It's pathetic.
Seriously, is there any other ideology that blew it so spectacularly?

>>2792737
Maybe. Lenin crusaded pretty heavily in his final years to devolve power to the people. He recognized that the global order of capital would not be crushed in his lifetime, and believed the best they could do was turn Russia into some kind of comfortable democracy that could provide benefits to the people while they waited for revolution in industrialized countries.

Stalin reversed this, deciding to destroy rudimentary Soviet democracy rather than expand it, and took little interest in promoting socialism abroad, instead seeing foreign communists as pawns for his own imperialism.

>>2792756
Fascism is really just a reaction to a specific period of time. Liberalism had brought the world into horrifying conflict and communism had shit PR. People were exceptionally poor and national fervor still ran high. Movements which combined social democracy with chauvinism seemed like the best solution for a lot of desperate people.

Just like poor workers who voted for Trump, it's hard to blame people for falling under the sway of fascist movements. At the time, it seemed like they might be able to provide some order, prosperity, and meaning to society when liberalism could not.

>>2792640
And Stalin brought the priests back and opened the churches again.
Your point is?

>>2792565
Both are in a number of Eastern European countries.

>>2792640
Religion was never banned in the USSR, just suppressed in regrettable ways.

>>2792565
Because USSR killed their own people.

>>2792818
Uh, and Hitler didn't?

>>2792818
Isn't that worse?

>>2792818
And other people too. The difference is that Americans don't make movies about it because they were in a different part of Europe.

both of these are considered hate symbols where i live

>>2792854
Japan can get pretty apologetic although it took them a while. Russia is by far the worst about their worst crimes. They cover it up as best as they can.

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Communists didn't lose the war.
If the West attacked them after German surrender And defeated them, which would happen, then their symbol would be hated as much as swastika today.

Also, claiming that Reich was worse than USSR Is beyond retarded.
Nazis wanted to remove whole ethnic groups, true enough, but guess who wanted to terminate bourgeoisie, which YOU Are most likely part of.
Guess who fucked up Eastern And Central Europe to the point where it is still recovering?
Who sent milions to gulags And killed even more in a proces?
Who's ideology was made up by someone who had zero idea how economy works And who didn't work a day in his life?
Who's ideology was proven not to work again and again but people still unironically support it?


t. Someone who's country was occupied by Soviet soldiers for 20 years just because we wanted to get rid of communism

>>2792640
Muh Orthodox Church dindu nuffin

>>2792918
>Also, claiming that Reich was worse than USSR Is beyond retarded
Commons sense is beyond retarded?

>Nazis wanted to remove whole ethnic groups, true enough, but guess who wanted to terminate bourgeoisie, which YOU Are most likely part of.
Soviets didn't planned to eliminate bourgeiose in the nazi sense of the word.

>Guess who fucked up Eastern And Central Europe to the point where it is still recovering?
Nazis and Commies, fortunately commies had the upper hand and prevented full-blown genocide

>Who sent milions to gulags And killed even more in a proces?
The state that had GULAGs? Are you implying Nazis didn't had their own murder-factories?

>Who's ideology was made up by someone who had zero idea how economy works And who didn't work a day in his life?
Hitler worked a few days, though.

>Who's ideology was proven not to work again and again but people still unironically support it?
Both?

>>2792918
> but guess who wanted to terminate bourgeoisie, which YOU Are most likely part of.

No, you are most likely not, at all. Also, Marx never said to 'terminate' the bourgeoisie, and all Lenin ever advocated was 2 weeks imprisonment while their property was expropriated, both of which he re-neged on.

Maybe your country shouldn't have supported the fucking Nazis and helped murder 30 million Soviet citizens if you wanted freedom and independence, dickweed. Go to GULAG

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>>2792684
>even if you attribute every single death by famine to the Soviet Union (which is ludicrous)
no it isn't.
> you get a statistic of 20 million at the very highest, from 1927 to 1952.
No you don't, some historians estimate Soviet wartime losses (military and civilian) to be in excess of 40 million. I'm not saying 40 million is accurate, I'm not qualified to dispute The Journal of Slavic Military Studies.

I do regret the word soviet though, It has the implication of blaming Judeo-Bolshevism on Russia, Russians or those in their sphere of influence when really the global promotion of this ideology can be attributed, almost entirely, to the Jews.

> Even viciously right-wing historians
I don't get this fallacy desu lad, if you say Even, then proceed with something you clearly don't like (viciously right-wing) then isn't the suggestion that you think he's an unreliable source? Or is it that you think I'm viciously right-wing and thus obliged to submit to Robert Conquest? You're being a bit rude about him btw.
>Nazis killed unquestionably more civilians than did the Soviet Union, and none of these happened by potentially natural factors
Do you consider the delusions of Marx, forced violently on the world, to be one of these natural factors? The holocaust is literally more natural than communism, humans have been observed to conspire against the other, engage in collective punishment and commit themselves absolutely to old tribal rivalries for all of history, Judeo-Bolshevism is newer and more artificial phenomenon of the two.
>but were instead direct killings by bullet, bomb, and gas.
Ow come on lad, I'm sure some of the Nazi's victims starved to death (natural factors :^))
>we get a statistic of 40-50 million
WOW, TIL WW2 was entirely the fault of the German People, apparently a race of demons you set themselves on Utopian, sinless and remarkably peaceful populations who had been nothing but fair to them. Bit vivaciously left-wing, this.

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>>2792684
>>2792980

>This does not even consider the German civilians and soldiers whose death warrant Hitler signed when he brought the country into war.
Hitler is responsible for the soldiers he sent to war but the leaders of other (viscouslt left-wing :^)) nations are not... because?
>Calling the USSR Jewish is ridiculous, but especially so after Stalin's ascension... the period in which these mass atrocities happened.
Lot to digest there.
>especially so after Stalin's ascension
Are you conceding it was pretty Jewish before that?
h-have you been a nazi this whole time?

>>2792959
Since when is claiming that one totalitairian regime (which killed more people than the other) not as bad as "evil western propaganda claims" not retarded?
Their plan was to remove burg. And kulaks. While of course not in such drastic ways as nazis, their plan was still to eliminate those groups. Guaranteed that gulags were the best thing awaiting them.
Yet nazis fucked it only during the war while USSR kept doing it for 40 another years.
I am not denying German death camps, I am merely claiming that people often tend to forget about gulags coz Muh six trillions.
True enough, Hitler And nazism aren't greatest examples of working ideology either
But guess which one of those ideologies Is still accepted in politics And it's supporters can openly prais it?

>>2792971
>My country
>Siding with nazis

We were the first to fall to them, lol
If Eternal Anglos and French weren't such pussies it could have better

>>2792583
Bullshit.
The goal of communism isn't "everyone getting along", it's the destruction and ultimate elimination of the "bourgeoisie". Bourgeoisie meaning everyone that owns more than the shirt on their back.

At least the Nazis would have eventually run out if Jews to kill, the Communists would be able to find capitalists to kill in every country on the face if the earth until the end of time.

The only reason you see communism in utopian terms but not national socialism is because you've been taught by Marxists

>>2793060
>At least the Nazis would have eventually run out if Jews to kill
There were still Slavs.

Hitler could've, if there was peace, continued to co-operate with Zionists to deport all the Jews to Palestine. Boom no hollashekels. Communists cannot get rid of 'class enemies' any other way than exterminating them.

National Socialism is morally superior to communism.

>>2793077
No. It was never his goal to send the Jews to Palestine.

>>2793086
So why did National Socialists collaborate with Zionists in Israel to deport Jews? Getting Jews out of Germany was the goal. They could've been deported to Madagascar.

>>2792994
USSR was more Jewish before Stalin and it was also a lot less horrific. Lots of Jews were involved in the early Soviet Union but they weren't bad people. They were passionate egalitarian humanists, and probably some of the best Jewish people ever.

>>2792971
>Also, Marx never said to 'terminate' the bourgeoisie, and all Lenin ever advocated was 2 weeks imprisonment while their property was expropriated, both of which he re-neged on.

If were going to play the weasel word atrocity denial game, could you point out where Hitler gave the official order to eliminate the Jews?

>>2793060
No, the bourgeoisie is anybody who owns a share of a business. Those who do not, from teachers to programmers to street sweepers, are proletarian.

>>2792980
>the global promotion of this ideology can be attributed, almost entirely, to the Jews.

I agree that communism is bullshit but when you say boogeyman-tier shit like this it is going to make you hard to take seriously.

Maybe you did not mean it in that way, but it sounds like you are implying that Jews got together at the Jew meeting to push communism.

I don't understand why we need to attribute it to Russians or Jews (which are, by the way, no longer mutually exclusive groups as soviet leadership has proven) when it is more rational to attribute it to idiocy.

>>2792649
This.

At the end of the day both regimes could be very difficult to reside in for an individual, and there's no real metric for choosing one over the other.

>>2793060
>The goal of communism isn't "everyone getting along", it's the destruction and ultimate elimination of the "bourgeoisie". Bourgeoisie meaning everyone that owns more than the shirt on their back.
Could you point where Marx advocates that?

>>2793060
>you've been taught by Marxists

I wish lmao

All discussion of communism in US schools is focused on the Soviet Union and its atrocities, usually with a heavy effort to connect the USSR to the Nazis

>>2793107
We don't have the order, but he said things like this:

>Today I will once more be a prophet: If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!
It's a very famous speech.

>>2793108
A business is whatever the commissar says is a business, if you happen to own something the commissar wants guess who is going to get declared a capitalist counterrevolutionary?

Here's a hint, it won't be the commissar.

>>2793133
probably because people were starting to notice how blatantly corrupt of a mod he is

>>2793117
So in other words not an actual order but simply a passing comment in a speech. Shall we pour over every passing comment of Stalin and Marx as well with the same vigorous scrutiny?

>>2792565
They're both taboo in some countries.

>>2793019
>>2793019
>Since when is claiming that one totalitairian regime (which killed more people than the other) not as bad as "evil western propaganda claims" not retarded?
Ask Poles why they've prefered teaming up with their former worst enemy. Nazi ideology is simply incompatible with western moral tradition, communism is still acceptable within western moral tradition. One ideology pursues superiority of one race over the world, teaches that man should be valued by genes, not deeds; and goes with might makes right morality. Other one teaches workers acquiring means of production, values labour and empathy; but goes wrong every single time.

>Yet nazis fucked it only during the war while USSR kept doing it for 40 another years.
They fucked it only during the war, since it was the only time they were unrestricted, when they acquired power they showed their true face. Soviets were always evil and friendless, so they had no checks on them.

>I am not denying German death camps, I am merely claiming that people often tend to forget about gulags coz Muh six trillions.
First people don't forget about GULAG, second if they do they do so because they were in Eastern Europe, no one from western Europe got GULAG'd en masse. Third these camps were fundamentally different.

>>2793031
How many Czechs were murdered by Nazis over the span of 7 years?
How many Czechs were murdered by Commies over the span of 41 years?

>>2793181
>only 20 people die ever because of capitalism
>the leftypol SJW still cries
HAHAHAHAHA

>>2792612
>muh 100 million killed by le commie joos
Try a fifth of that at most, with most of it occurring during Stalin's rule. What's more, the USSR is nowhere near representative of all communist movements.

>>2793190
maybe your posts are getting deleted because they are devoid of content and consist solely of name-calling people you disagree with like a toddler

just a guess

try forming an argument, if you hold your beliefs to be true it should not be so hard

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>>2793190
Not an argument

>>2793232
>>2793210
Why are SJWs mad that only 20 people are killed by capitalism?

Didn't your mod approved leftypol propagda picture say that?

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>>2793250
Why can't you form an argument?

>>2793250
Periods are used instead of commas outside the US

>>2793256
Why do SJWs steal "/pol/yp" meme?
>>2793266
I live in Ireland and we don't use periods

>>2793198
>What's more, the USSR is nowhere near representative of all communist movements.
You're right we can't forget the example set by Cambodia.

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>>2793319

>>2793322
it's the cold war lmao

>>2792565
Because retarded Neo-Nazis continue to use the swastika to this day for there retarded edge lord ideology. If they all switched to a different symbol and left it alone few decades, it would return to being seen as a good luck charm.

>>2793429
>not hating your own race is "edgy"
This is what the left actually believes

intent

>>2793433
Nazis hate their own race more than anyone. How else can you explain being so self destructive?

Well I consider them both hate symbols.

And I don't think either of them are acceptable to flaunt in public, even though I don't think that should be illegal.

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Soviet =/= marxist

>>2793454
Communism intends to steal all my stuff kick me out of my home, send me to a reeducation camp and kill me if I resist, how the fuck is that any better?

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>>2793527
>steal all my stuff kick
give you the common wealth
>send me to a reeducation camp and kill me if I resist
That's the USSR and actually not as bad that Nazi final solution

>>2792640
Religious institutions were de facto persecuted in the USSR, but being religious wasn't illegal. For a while the Orthodox Church was actually supported because the country needed patriotism. The only country where religion was 100% illegal was Albania.

>>2793468
>Oy vey your commitment to preserve your race in the face of all the punitive social engineering schemes we've put in place is so self-destructive!

>>2792707
good post

>>2792565
A few reasons...
1) The Nazis openly admitted that they were racial supremacists and social darwinians, whereas the Bolsheviks talked a big game of being the good guys who wanted nice things for everyone.
2) The USSR outlived Stalinism, so there was time to dissociate the USSR from the crimes of the 1917-1953 period. Meanwhile, it was awkward for Westerners to consider Stalin as evil as Hitler because he had been a WW2 ally.

>>2793540
I don't want the "common wealth", I want MY wealth.

>ov vey muh final solution!
The "final solution" was a contingency plan enacted due to their inability to deport all the Jews because of foreign obstruction. Marxists have proven themselves no better when it comes to the reality of their contingency plans.

>>2792980
>le Jewish boogeyman

>>2793060
This is bullshit. The bourgeoisie didn't just own more than the shirts on their backs. If I owned more than the shirt on my back but still worked in a factory or office rather than owning one, I'd be proletarian.

Captialism has killed many throughout history. Should we make that a hate symbol?

>>2793296
You mean the US-backed reactionary psychopaths?

>>2793583
>The bourgeoisie didn't just own more than the shirts on their backs

No, the Kulaks owned a couple of horses and some farm equipment and a little bit of land; enough to employ farmhands.

This was obviously a too gross moral crime under Marxist axioms, so they all had to be annihilated.

>>2793433
Nobody except for a handful of batshit radlibs and a minority of internet commies hates their own race.

What's edgy is your constant efforts to oppress or murder those of other races.

>>2793557
The Nazis also talked a big game about wanting the best for everyone. The difference is academia has no problem repeating positive Marxist propaganda, but recoils from repeating the propaganda of Nazi Germany for fear of people coming to view the Nazis as anything other than irrational hatemongers. The last thing the system wants is for people to start thinking "hey maybe those Nazis were onto something..."

>>2793583
Nope, then and now a bourgeois was somebody who owned capital. This means owning a factory or employing farm workers, although in the latter case bottom up pressures certainly did lead to an unnecessary amount of people being labeled kulaks.

>>2793591
The fact that the US allegedly backed Cambodia does not undermine it's Marxist character anymore so than it's backing of Maoist China to undermine the Soviets undermines China's Marxist character.

>>2793583
>If I owned more than the shirt on my back but still worked in a factory or office rather than owning one, I'd be proletarian.
Nope.
You'd be a thief, black marketeer and a horder in need of immediate deportation to the gulag.

>>2792565
>Communism stuck around longer and was able to defend/promote itself post-1945
>Western relations with the USSR were complicated (ideological opponents that sometimes cooperated, e.g. lend-lease) whereas Nazis were simply the enemy
>by its own internal logic, Nazism disproved itself by losing WW2

>>2793572
>I don't want the "common wealth", I want MY wealth.
regardless, the intent isn't worse or nearly as bad as nazism

Nazism intended to work them to death, export and then murder. Nothing comparable in communism

>>2793659
>Nothing comparable in communism

Except in practice it was way worse of course.

>>2793622
No, the Nazis talked a big game about wanting the best for Germans and, sometimes, Anglos.

>>2793638
>by its own internal logic, Nazism disproved itself by losing WW2
True National Socialism has never been tried before, Hitlerism was a historical aberration that is indicative of nothing.

This thread is sad... people arguing about the merits of Nazism vs Bolshevism...
They both fucking sucked. There's nothing to argue about.

>>2793622
They were very open about wanting the best for their country. That's the whole point about fascism you fucking moron

>>2793671
Would you lay down and give up if you were dead last in a race? Or would you fight to the bitter end for second to last?
I wouldn't. I'd be a loser either way, but I sure as fuck wouldn't want to be the biggest loser

>>2793659
>Nazism intended to work them to death, export and then murder.
Wrong, German National Socialism wanted what was best for the German Volk, the Aryan race, and by extension the entire world. Everything that happened to Jews was an unintended consequence stemming from their own meddling.

>>2793686
Those damn meddling tailors and Polish villagers... after all, clearly Jews are a hive mind. Every Jew in Poland is in secret psychic communion with rich Rothschild bankers in London, all plotting together against the poor innocent Nazis...

>>2793668
>true X has never been tried

I can't tell if this post is serious or not.

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>>2793284
I don't know, maybe we could ask one together. I don't consider myself an SJW or even a liberal. I'm just pointing out that you haven't formed an argument, and asking you why that is.

I see that you have no intention of actually discussing anything though. You just want to treat this like /pol/ with dates. Basically ignoring the sticky and making the board shitty.

This is why people don't want you here, nigger. Not because we want a safe space or we are LE SJW JEWS. We want you gone because you literally cannot form an argument. You just fling shit.

>>2793672
What's wrong with wanting the best for their country? and if they genuinely believe what's best for their country is best for the world how is that not having the best interests of the world at heart?

Is it selfish for a competent man to put himself in command over the incompetent? Nazis genuinely believed they were the master race and that the world would prosper under their rule, we may disagree with that starting premise but to claim they didn't want the best for the world but the communists did is disingenuous.

>>2793708
You're engaging in sophistry. Yes, some of the Nazis may have cared about what was best for the world. But they had a fixed idea about how to get there - through making Germany more powerful. It's not like they were dispassionately analyzing what would be best for the world. No, they were looking through a predetermined nationalist lens.

That said, I agree that the Bolsheviks were no better.

>>2793700
Nice strawman.
From a National Socialist narrative perspective, the Jewish tailor suffered because the Jewish banker overseas impeded Nazi efforts to expelled their Jews.

Whether or not that is factually true is irrelevant as I'm not arguing for Nazism, but simply applying the methods of Marxist apologia to the Nazi narrative to expose just how ugly Marxism actually is.

If Marxists are allowed to claim with a straight face that Marxist atrocities are an unintended consequence with no relation to the Marxist ideology I see no reason why Nazis should be denied the same privilege.

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>>2793740
Indeed it can be argued for pretty strongly too.

Lets not forget that Hitler had the actual "Nationalist" and "Socialist" elements of his party murdered.

>>2793731
>You're engaging in sophistry
Yes I am, quite deliberately in fact.

>the Bolsheviks were no better.
That's what I'm getting at, and not just Bolsheviks mind you but Marxists in general, including the moderates. Nobody ever stands up and points at the moderate Nazis to vindicate Nazism.

>>2793708
>What's wrong with wanting the best for their country?
Nothing, as long as it doesn't include destruction of foreign nations. Because then the foreign nations might get a bit anrgy and unite against you.

>and if they genuinely believe what's best for their country is best for the world how is that not having the best interests of the world at heart?
Because they've never left "What's best for our nation" category? Looting Europe is great for German economy, but bad for the rest of Europeans.

>Is it selfish for a competent man to put himself in command over the incompetent?
Take the "competent" out, since it has no meaning, as everyone likes to think of himself as competent; and you'll get lust for power.

>>2793740
>If Marxists are allowed to claim with a straight face that Marxist atrocities are an unintended consequence with no relation to the Marxist ideology I see no reason why Nazis should be denied the same privilege.
Neither should get that privilege. But comparing Marxism to Nazism is flawed. You should compare Bolshevism to Nazism - that is the more accurate comparison. Marxism would be better compared to the intellectual precursors of Nazism.

>>2793750
Like I just wrote in another comment, comparing Nazis to Marxists is inaccurate. Nazis should be compared to Bolsheviks. Marxism should be compared to, perhaps, nationalist conservatism as a whole.

>>2793740
Marxism has nothing to do with race at all, that was just accessory shit added by Russian propaganda and culture. One of Hitlers main talking points was the Jews. The Swastika doesn't represent vanilla national socialism, it represents Hitler's version of it, which was specifically anti-Jewish among other things. The hammer and sickle is generally considered a general symbol for communism, but if you want to argue that its the symbol for Russia/Stalin's band of "communism" I can't really say I thats an idiotic statement. In the end it comes down to societies perception of the symbols: When people see the swastika and the hammer-and-sickle, they feel more strongly that the swastika is "bad" or represents "bad"....its just how it is.

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>>2793789
Marx hated Jews a lot fampai.

>>2792769
>Trump
>Fascist

End this meme

>>2793956
He wasn't saying that Trump is a fascist, though... besides, there is some reason to make the comparison. Trump is a right-wing nationalist populist from outside traditional political circles who appeals to social conservatives and advocates a hybrid right-wing/left-wing economic program that includes economic nationalist concepts.

>>2792565
Because the millions of deaths that came from nazism was intentional and targeted specific people
Communism is a very broad ideology and the millions of deaths came from the inevitable failure of the system and did not only happen to specific races or groups

>>2794010
True, but keep in mind that the hammer and sickle started out as a Bolshevik symbol and became a symbol of communism in general to some extent, whereas the swastika was specifically used by Nazis and had never been known (as far as I know) as a symbol of nationalist conservatism prior to the Nazis.

>>2794044
Cont... so it would be fair to argue that the hammer and sickle should be viewed as as symbol of Bolshevism specifically rather than communism in general, just like the swastika is a symbol of Nazism specifically.

>>2792587
So... All but Cuba thus far? Even in Cuba some people were killed for no reason other than political disagreement

>>2794044
That's a different argument tho
The swastika when not used in the context of nazism but instead it's original meanings it isn't considered a hate symbol

>>2794066
Yes, but in the context of Western politics the swastika, as far as I know, has no earlier meaning other than as a Nazi symbol.

Try walking through Indonesia with a commie flag lmao

>>2794010
>and did not only happen to specific races or groups

It fucking did on several occasions. EVery heard of kulaks, or the Polish operation? Or the Jewish doctors plot? Whoever was the enemy of the revolution which included the whole groups including nationalities.

>>2794086
fucking *ever

>>2794081
It's because of ignorance.
Most western politicians see it as a Nazi symbol because in the west that's what most of the people who use it use it as

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>>2794010

Please explain how the murder of kulaks, counter-revolutionaries aka non-Commies and anyone else deemed even vaguely subversive was not targeting specific groups of people.

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin%27s_Hanging_Order

And even then, Papa Stalin did deem certain ethnic groups (Volga Germans) more subversive than others and sent them to the middle of nowhere in Kazakhstan. One third of them died in labor camps.

>>2794086
>Ever heard of kulaks?

Sounds like you didn't, kulak was an insult for farmers that had employees.

>>2794086
Ok, but it was not on the same scale as the Holocaust where every person of a single race was rounded up and gassed to death. I doubt the numbers are comparable
Also I'm pretty sure that it was for not being a commie, which is something you can control unlike being of a certain race

>>2794108
Yeah but communism is a very broad ideology, everyone hates stalin. Not every commie was a racist

>>2794108
It can be argued that this was deviation from ideology towards Russian imperialism.

>>2793686
*revisionism intensifies*

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>>2794119

The hammer and sickle was the symbol for Russian communism and simply adopted by other Communist parties around the world, usually with some variation. It's exactly the same as the swastika being adopted by fascist parties around the world, also with some variation.

Given the atrocities committed by the Soviets, there is absolutely zero reason in my mind why the hammer and sickle shouldn't be met with the same derision as the swastika. I have no idea why murder and oppression along economic or political lines is somehow so much more palatable than murder and oppression along ethnic lines; both require imbuing the suppressed party with original sin or guilt of some sort, but we're conditioned to accept class-based guilt as more reasonable than ethnic-based guilt, which is just ridiculous.

>>2794224
It was the way the Nazis carried out their atrocities. Communist atrocities happened when the system didn't work the way it was supposed to (it will never work) Nazi atrocities were a part of the system

>>2792565
because stalin did nothing wrong and hitler was a cuck

The only thing I've gained from this thread is that both are/were shitty systems, which led to mass killings, unlawful imprisonment and left a lot of countries in ruins. Gotcha

>>2794256
Which is pretty much all you need to know, and it's also why these two groups of people should be stopped trying to gain the levers of power again.

>>2794256

And this is exactly why the symbols should both be viewed with total contempt.

>>2794256
But one is considered marginally less offensive than the other. And that's so unfair that it deserves another thread full of sperging out

>>2793746
Did he have any other choice? Could the Nazi party have seized (and held onto) power without the support of the conservative establishment?

>>2794099
Sorry, I didn't express myself clearly. What I mean is that, as far as I know, the swastika had no political meaning, or at least no important political meaning, before the Nazis. It had various religious and philosophical meanings.

>>2794115
Bolshevik and Stalinist atrocities were on the same scale on the Holocaust, and likely even on a bigger scale. And they didn't just kill people for not being commies. They killed people for all sorts of reasons, including many that the victims couldn't control.

I hate Nazis, but the fact is that the Soviet commies killed at least as many people.

Note to some people in this thread: stop defending the Bolsheviks, for fuck's sake. The Nazis were bad, but the Bolsheviks were just as bad. That's simply historical fact. By arguing in defense of the Bolsheviks, you're just helping the stormfags, since your arguments hold no water.

>>2792631

> Poland and Finland say quit sucking Marxist cock.

>>2792583
Communism is literally built upon the hatred of religion, the bourgeoisie and any conflicting thought.

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Alright when exactly are we going to separate 'muh Elysium fields' book Communism from how Communism is actually applied IN ALL CASES in real life?

This is getting really fucking old.

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'It will be objected, no doubt, that it is just here, the introduction of labour in common, that Communists have generally experienced failure. Yet this objection cannot stand. The causes of failure have always to be sought elsewhere.

Firstly, nearly all communities were founded by an almost religious wave of enthusiasm. People were asked to become "pioneers of humanity;" to submit to the dictates of a punctilious morality, to become quite regenerated by Communist life, to give all their time, hours of work and of leisure, to the community, to live entirely for the community.

This meant acting simply like monks and to demand - without any necessity - men to be what they are not. It is only in quite recent days that communities have been founded by Anarchist working men without any such pretensions, for purely economic purposes - to free themselves from capitalist exploitation.'

>>2793108
Funny how teachers, programmers and street sweepers still ended up killed and disappeared. It's almost like communism inevitably tries to destroy anyone who is against it.

>>2794256
This is entirely correct. Yet one system is reviled and the other praised. Go into any major university in the west and walk around the campus and through the faculty offices. Count the number of hammer and sickle logos you see and compare that to the number of swastikas. Why one system is completely abolished from public dialogue and the other openly and actively taught and encouraged makes no sense whatsoever.

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>>2794425
>marginally

because communists sell everyone on the idea that they just want everyone to have everything they need and be one huge global community. any incidences of massive death, war, and oppression were not real communism.

>>2794686
Because the US didn't take 400,000 KIA fighting the USSR, the USSR killed mostly their own countries citizens instead of other countries citizens, most of the victims of the USSR were poor, and the American right wing's constant use of red baiting has turned communism into a form of counterculture virtue signalling.

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>>2792612
>USSR was Jewish meme

Nope, was 14% Jewish in its early days

>>2794686
Well, if Nazi Germany had fought on the US/English/French side in WW2, and then had survived, chilled out and stopped mass murdering people, and had survived for 45 more years before collapsing, it's quite possible that swastikas wouldn't be in such total disfavor.

>>2794709
>stopped mass murdering people
>sure we killed 40 million people
>but we stopped
>mostly
>yay communism!

>>2794770
I'm not saying it's right that the hammer-and-sickle is viewed differently from the swastika, I'm just explaining why that is.

>>2794705
then Stalin purged the jews. which resulted in the soviets becoming the bad goys.

>>2793664
Objectively false. Nazi Germany killed more people than the Soviet Union in only 12 years

>>2793740
What's ugly about Marxism? At very worst, its analysis has been appropriated by 20th century left-wing autocracies.

Remember that Marxism is not a system of government and does not even provide a guideline on how to govern. It's a class-based framework for social analysis and economic study.

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>>2795200

>Nazi Germany killed more people than the Soviet Union in only 12 years

You're going to need to justify that claim

>>2792565
This is the one arguably /pol/-tier opinion I share to be honest.
No real reason the other shouldn't be as criminal. Far higher death count if that's the sole barometer.

>>2795557
That's not a /pol/-tier opinion, that's just common sense (although, personally, I would prefer not criminalizing symbols). A /pol/-tier opinion would be thinking that the Nazis did nothing wrong.

>>2795501
Not OP, but it's pretty obvious. The Third Reich killed 40 million people by starting WWII and perpetrating mass atrocities during that conflict. Let's round up and assume that the Great Purge killed 10 million (most say it killed 8 million) that that the Holodomor killed another 10 million (estimates range from 3 to 11 million). Other than those two, repression by the Soviet Union killed large numbers, but nowhere close to another million. So even if we round up, the Soviet Union killed (again, at most) only half as many over 72 years as Germany did in 12.

Hitler wasn't some supernaturally evil guy. There are millions of people like him, just with belief systems that aren't taboo.

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>>2795789
>The Third Reich killed 40 million people

America fought against one and we didn't go to war against another. Thus, in America, the Nazi symbol is associated with hatred- it makes the digestion of a defeated ideology that much harder.

You can argue that a similar phenomena has happened to communism, except more with ineptitude and failure rather than "hatefulness". Things like the Holdomor or famines in China weren't caused by weather patterns but Communism, which is inherently logically faulty. Honestly, parallels can be drawn from things like the Holdomor to the Irish Potato Famine- famines made worse by government policy and ideology. Lack of food or hatred isn't inherent to any one ideology, merely the association, and the popular one, at that.

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>>2794592
>>2794010
>>2793588
>>2793591
>>2793540
>>2793520
>>2793232
>>2793116
>>2792692
>>2792608

>>2795916
>feels > evidence

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You know the answer.

>>2795940
>Communism
>Not about feels

>>2793863
He was more frustrated

>>2792565
One of these killed maybe two million people, who mostly deserved and started it

The other killed closer to two hundred million for no reason or just for dissenting

>>2796233
Even if rich Jews really were causing trouble, which is debatable, most of the Jews that the Nazis killed were random poor or middle class Jews.

>>2792565
Because communism is good, and most people know it.

The only people who try to equate fascism with communism are fascists in denial over their crimes, as well as exiles forced out by socialist revolutions.

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>>2796233
>200 million

that hilariously over-inflated figure aside it's amazing how you think all jews need to die because of "jewish bolsheviks" (which are largely a myth, see >>2794705) and yet dresden is the ultimate crime of humanity because germans dindunuffin despite Hitler provoking everybody

>>2796292
I'm a fascist and I would never ever equate fascism with communism. That would be like equating Ferrari with a 30 year old Yugo.

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>>2796314
>Ferrari
Good metaphor for fascism really. All aesthetics and bluster, no bite or mass appeal/reliability.

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>>2794705
It wasn't even that much.
The whole "Jew Bolshevik" canard is just a spin on the old "Judeo Masonry" crap from the 1800s.

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>>2796361

>>2796369
Translation, please.

>>2796388
>trying to act like an expert on Russia
>doesn't know Russian
Dropped

>>2796406
I've never claimed to be an expert on Russia. I certainly cannot stand conspiratorial nonsense regardless of nationality or religion though.

>>2792583
This. Its not all that hard.

>>2796410
I don't think I'll take anything you post seriously from now on, sorry.

>>2796388
eвpeи: jews

>>2793060
>implying he was stopping with the Jews

The slavs are slaves thing was real.

>>2796453
Not particularly surprising. Jews were far more literate and urbane than the rest of the Soviet population was at the time, which would've allowed them to progress in the ranks of the bureaucracy. But as we all know, this was short lived. Seems to me that it was more Stalin using them, knowing they were to be curbed at a later date and used to absorb attention away from the rest of the Soviet nationalities.

Where is it from though? Because searching "NKVD Jews" just brings up a load of conspiracy theory, rabidly antisemitic and pseudohistorical sites.

>>2793127
And that's a flaw of the people, not of the government system itself. Hence why the hammer and sickle isn't a hate symbol because communism doesn't inherently imply hate.

A crown isn't a hate symbol just because a malevolent monarch with absolute power can decide to ruin your life.

>>2792692
>Stalin believing Hitler invading inevitable
>Told Russians not to shoot back because he thought mistake
>Retreated to his home and holed up for a week because invasion

Ok guy

>>2793594
If you have employees then you're a business. Just because it's a farm rather than something higher status like a factory or office doesn't change that.

>>2792707
Cuba, GDR, Vietnam, Laos, Poland, Romania, the Baltics, Balkan countries would disagree with you. Hell, has there been a non shitty communist country?

>>2796815
Not that Anon but come on, Stalin did somewhat expect this...

Hitler had already made his rhetoric known to the world. The Slavs were subhumans, and per Lebensraum, nearly all the Slavs were meant to be exterminated in a swift genocide which would leave Germans with new land to colonize.

Even in Mein Kampf Hitler talks about his anti-communist hatred and how Slavs are subhumans. Stalin was a smart guy, he was probably taken by surprise but he knew this was going to happen.

>>2792612
Hate inherently requires intent.

>>2796288
>>2796292
Nah, militant communism is just as bad as militant fascism. Militant communism seeks to destroy the bourgeoisie and the rich and take their wealth, and obviously this can only be done by force in practice. This endeavor is the same thing as the Nazi endeavor to destroy non-favored racial groups and take their wealth. The only difference is that the targeted groups are selected based on their class rather than their race.
I've said it before and I've said it again: attempts to defend militant communism just play into the hands of the stormfag retards. The truth is that militant communism was every bit as bad as national socialism, and both were/are horrible.

>>2796882
Cont... I will make one exception... militant communism that seeks only to take the wealthy's stuff but not murder them is somewhat less bad than the explicitly genocidal versions national socialism. However, this is for the most part a theoretical distinction. History has shown that most communist regimes fail to stop short of murder in their efforts to expropriate the wealthier classes of society.

>>2796844
Stalin saw how much Germany and USSR were both benefiting from the pact, and couldn't understand why Germany would squander it. The reality was that Stalin viewed things from a ruthless but pragmatic viewpoint whereas Hitler was acting emotionally, he invaded the USSR for his own emotional reasons.

This is why Stalin "didn't see" the invasion coming, because it was such a stupid move it made no sense to him.

>>2796882
>Militant communism seeks to destroy the bourgeoisie and the rich and take their wealth, and obviously this can only be done by force in practice. This endeavor is the same thing as the Nazi endeavor to destroy non-favored racial groups and take their wealth

Striving for equality and the end of class oppression is not the same thing as genociding people based on uncontrollable conditions such as race and striving to uphold class society based on myths of a national revival, Jewish conspiracy theories and violence as an end in itself. Class is not an inherent part of the human condition, it has changed before and can change again. Fascism is the last ditch attempt of a capitalist system in crisis to save itself and maintain existing antagonisms, whereas communism attempts to resolve them.

>>2795910
plenty of ricers got the rising sun on their car and they seem to do ok as long the avoid people that were alive back in wwii

>>2792783
Yeah till after the war, then he told them to fuck off again.

>>2796842
Nearly all of those were were before communism

Hammer and Sickle is a symbol of love and peace, the symbol of unity between worker class and peasant master race.

>>2793077
Hitler wouldn't extend the same fate to the Slavs

>>2793322
Sid is NazBol

>>2793092
For economic reasons. Getting Jews out of Europe was their goal. But it was expected that most of them will die in this new place due to harsh conditions.

>>2797304
When I see a hammer and sickle, I get really hungry.

You sure it isn't a symbol of global hunger?

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>>2797304

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>>2797304

>>2797304
Which is of course why the soviets waged a war on the peasant class through forced collectivization and tsarist levels of taxation so they could set up a tractor industry and some iron smelters.

>>2796908
That's actually a good point. I'd still argue, though, that murdering people because they have more wealth than average isn't much better than murdering people because they're a certain race. It's impractical, too. You can only do it once - you reap a big harvest as you steal all the wealthy people's stuff, but then there are no more wealthy people left and you're fucked. On the other hand, a society where poor people have the potential of becoming wealthy people through skill and effort is sustainable.

>>2797540
It's still despicable but the way the Nazis killed people was more despicable imo

>>2797372
Memes, vast majority of modern famines have happened in capitalist societies. Even in Russia and China, rising life expectancy and population after initial periods of famine suggest food availability increased during the Stalin and Mao years

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>>2792565
Why do you think?

>>2797400
But that's not leftypol, I think that's just a Socialists club in Sweden or something

How can people still ask this question.
If the context is a Western society(cause in ex-commie countries both symbols will get a reaction) it is because of the people who brand these symbols.
Most people flying the hammer and sickle,while dumb, believe in ideals such as equality and worker's rights.
Most of the people who unironically brandish swastikas are equally dumb and also believe in exterminating parts of the population.
Gee, I wonder who gets the most hate.

>>2798943

How many fascists do you personally know? Do you think they all believe the same things?

I consider myself a fascist. I also consider myself a humanitarian. I personally believe fascism's mission would lead to a huge decrease in unhappiness and general welfare for ALL of the world's people. White countries that are *only* white actually help everyone it turns out. I have no right to tell wogs or semites or turks or chugs how to live their lives. I'd love to see everyone pursue ethnic self-determinism as long as it is extended to my people (Indo-Europeans).

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This kills the pretentious /his/coms.

>>2799030
My younger brother and a couple of my friends are far right/nationalist, one of them even fascist.
They don't all say the same stuff and have different beliefs politically and spiritually.
One of them has genocidal beliefs (a la day of the rope stuff) but he is a rich pussy and won't carry out shit.
I also admit that I have met commies that are complete tankies and say every single person Stalin killed was justified.
However I didn't talk about all fascists/right winger, I talked about people who wear swastikas in public.

>>2798620
Not very surprising that food availability per capita increases after millions of people die while being forced to work on mass agricultural projects for collective benefit...

>>2799030
Are you really a fascist, or are you just a white nationalist? Cause in white majority countries, it's possible to have white nationalism without fascism - you just have to put tight immigration limits in place - and in countries without a white majority, trying to impose white nationalism would be rather pig-headed. Do you want society to have a fascist political and social structure? If you do, I gotta say, I have nothing but loathing for you. A fascist state wouldn't even give people the right to share dissenting political ideas online. Hell, there's something quite self-contradictory about being a fascist on an online board devoted to radical and taboo thought. In a fascist society this site would get shut down.

>>2799155

Not same person but I'd rather live in a mixed fascist state than a {any other ideology} white country.

>>2799180
Well, if you want to go to some desolate wasteland and set up a fascist state with your friends, feel free, but keep your filthy paws off my society. I like having freedom of speech and living in a society that generally values the individual, not just the state.

>>2799187
Seems you have a pretty myopic understanding of what fascism could be. I know, I know. You've been told that fascism is all about lifting up the state. But it isn't. Or at least it shouldn't be and wouldn't have to be. It's about providing a sociocultural context for the individual to realize their power/ability. I'll leave you with a quote from a leftist (which I assume you are because moderates are usually indifferent to fascism) "...freedom only gives you something to be sorry for"

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hey guys I just wanted to say it is all AMERICAS FAULT and the soviets dindu nothin :DDDD

>>2799227
>You've been told that fascism is all about lifting up the state. But it isn't.
That's a pretty bold statement given that most prominent fascists glorified state power over the individual. Evidence?
> I'll leave you with a quote from a leftist
No, I am certainly not a leftist. I'm more of a classical liberal.
>moderates are usually indifferent to fascism
I don't think that's accurate... from what I've seen, moderates usually have the same opinion of fascism that pretty much everyone other than fascists has... they loathe it.

>>2799227
Cont.
>It's about providing a sociocultural context for the individual to realize their power/ability.
I live in a non-fascist society (the US), and I'm doing quite well at realizing my power/ability.

>>2795470
>what's so ugly about an ideology that not only considers it a moral right for hobos to rob and murder people with more property than them, but a moral duty as well?

Gee, I don't know anon...

>>2796814
>government founded upon the idea that private ownership of property is bad and theft of said property is good
>it's not the governments fault though when people put that idea to practice

How exactly do you people think property gets seized and redistributed under communism if not through violence, by magic?

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>>2799080

>>2799550
Then they try to actually run a successful enterprise without a boss, fail miserably, and end up picking a boss from among their own.

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>>2792565

One symbol is about the brutal genocide of millions of people and countless other atrocities, the other is an incomplete symbol of the fucking finnish air force.

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>>2797400
>more white than /pol/
huh really makes ya think

>>2799129
People died but the population still rose to be higher than before the revolution

>>2799574
A boss isn't a manager, a boss is an owner. A democratic workplace, in which returns are socialized, would still have a manager to ensure things go well

Why are rightists universally braindead?

>>2799227
>moderates are usually indifferent to fascism

When's the last time you left home? Fascism is the only ideology more unacceptable to normies than communism.

To preface, I really quite dislike the Marxist.

I believe the reason is that the Communists didn't target a PARTICULAR group of people.

I understand they targeted those they called bourgeoisie, people who disagreed with them, etc. However these groups, although quite large, are not particular.

Someone they disagree with today, they may not have disagreed yesterday or may not disagree tomorrow. Those who have money today may not have it tomorrow, etc.

So although they hate very large groups of people, it's hard to pin down an exact identity.

>>2792565
this video explains it well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUGkKKAogDs

The Hammer and Sickle doesn't represent any government in particular while the nazi party used the swastika.

Nazism is anti-Semite
Communism doesn't say anything about hating any certain people. the Bourgeoisie aren't hated personally, you don't have to kill anyone to stop them from exploiting people.

>>2800350
>PragerU

I hope to god this is a troll

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>>2800405

>>2797400
>>2799640
>/pol/are neckbeards and asians who wish the were white.
>/leftypol/ are numale dorks, but actually white

>>2800464
Oy vey, what about the white supremacists?

Which one tells you that certain people shouldnt be allowed to live?

>>2800561
Neither. Nazi Germany only wanted the Jews out of Europe

Give the Trump/Putin Russian White Supremacy Conspiracy theory time to reach peak hysteria, then we're gonna see some crazy shit like the Sickle and Hammer labeled as a hate symbol.

>>2793117
>if

>>2794705
An over representation by a factor of ten