Historical European Martial Arts

That's like asking what people think of boxing or football. It's a sport like any other.

>>2784379

gay LARPing, not a real sport

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>>2784379
Totally, the study of martial culture certainly falls under humanities and often history. There is an academic discipline called hopology which does so systematically.

While my own interest is in the Japanese sword methods I love reading about weapon arts from all times and cultures

>>2784379
Too much of it is LARPing with insufficient understanding of the source material and outside of a historically accurate setting. Modern HEMA is probably better than historical longsword fencing for fighting with grippy shoes on an indoor basketball court, but favors a very different set of techniques compared to fighting in leather soled boots on grass or dirt.

Watch the footwork in one of those Swordfish championships, and notice how much they lunge and dance around. Compare that to the solid passing and transversing footwork shown in the source material. You'll notice that footwork isn't a particular focus in any of the sources, because the prevailing idea was to just do what feels natural. However, what feels natural in a high-grip situation is not what feels natural in a low-grip one, and lends itself to the use of different techniques.

>>2784379
>What do you guys think of HEMA? Is it /his/ approved?

It's basically European Kendo, except generally practiced with metal practice weapons instead of bamboo/wood.

Its, at least when practiced properly, trained using manuals from whichever period in history and authors are relevant to the weapon being trained.

There are literally hundreds of treatises and manuscripts detailing every kind of style of fighting imaginable, with almost any weapon ever commonly used (in Europe).

For a (semi)readable selection, see here: http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Treatises

Lots of people will argue that much or all of HEMA practices are not legitimate martial arts, or are just LARPing, and to some degree they'd be right, as HEMA has no governing body, and literally anyone can start their own school and claim to be authentic. It's like a lot of Japanese martial arts, in that you'll find dozens of McDojos for every legit practitioner, because there is no binding standard, and anyone can put on a Gi and a black belt and wave their arms around and tell people they're basically Mr Myagi and then sell 'Authentic Kung-Fu lessons'.

Not every HEMA instructor is Matt Easton, and a lot of/most people get into HEMA for the same reasons people get into reenactment and actual LARPing; because they want to do cool swordfighting. This means you have to be very wary of people that don't have a very legit reputation, because then it probably will just be LARPing. When done properly, HEMA is basically just reading through a LOT of really old treatises and books and putting together techniques found therein, then practicing them in sparring with other people who have done such.

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>>2784882
Thats one thing the Japanese arts talk about a lot, sparring and tournament fighting lend themselves to very fast "jumpy" footwork and cutting with the arms rather than the whole body in order to score a touching "point" before the other guy. This is particularly a problem with lightweight training weapons.

Of course some styles also argue the benefits and even necessity of such practice, as long as its done right, and argue that its the best way to train freestyle now that matches with live swords are banned and wooden weapons cannot be used for full force contact without injury.

>>2784379
you know what grinds my gears? /his/ will spend days debating whether the katana was crap, or whether a spear is better than a sword, but when people want to talk about how these weapons were taught and used its crickets.

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>>2784934
>Matt Easton
Is he /ourguy/?

>>2787402
At the very least he uses primary sources for a lot of his information.

>>2787416
That makes him much better than anyone on /his/

>>2787402
>Matt Easton
>Is he /ourguy/?

Who else could be?

>>2784967
I do wish there was a way to adequately gauge whether or not a hit would really wound, incapacitate, etc.

What irks me a lot in competition is when people score by hitting the opponent with piss-poor edge alignment.

There are a lot of factors that affect how people move in HEMA. The difference between fencing with feders, nylons and sharp-simulators for example is pretty striking.
There's also the ruleset. I for one find the "score points in a given time limit" system awful in simulating a proper fight where priority No.1 should be to get out alive.

>>2787402
He doesn't bullshit around, presents things as is. That is rare these days.

>>2784379
I enjoy it. It's fun to learn from historical sources, practice them, and spar with friends. I really hope it doesn't become bloated and glorified on TV.

>>2784491
>>2784622
HEMA is not intended to be a sport. That's what makes it different from SPORT fencing that you see in the Olympics.

>>2784934
>It's basically European Kendo, except generally practiced with metal practice weapons instead of bamboo/wood.

Not always. We use synthetic wasters as well. I personally think wood is bad for sparring since it doesn't flex. Fencers are more prone to injury compared to properly flexing synthetic or steel practice weapons.

>>2785975
Not all of us are retards and think the katana is a piece of shit. The problem with katanas is their contemporary portrayal in movies and TV. They're not better or worse than European swords. They're not sharper than other swords. They just have their advantages and disadvantages. Spears ARE better than swords in most contexts.

>>2787402
Yes, he is.

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>>2787877
Ultimately there is no real way to gauge how someone would react to a cut. Some people will keep on attacking after being stabbed, others will shut down after getting their forehead cut and blood seeping into their eyes. There really isn't any true test other than shinken shobu; a contest with live blades

Traditionally in Japan, an inter-school match would be conducted with wooden weapons, any weapon besides projectiles, and would simply continue until someone gave up or became incapacitated. There would be no referee to call the match. This ensured that the loser would have no recourse to complain because he either gave up or was knocked out.

The problem with this is of course it assumes both practitioners will use the wooden weapons as if they were the real thing. It doesn't simulate cutting but relies on the bokken's abiility to concuss and break bones when used like a sword

Shinai shiai as many of the same problems you mentioned, only perhaps worse because the shinai does not act like a sword unless you very consciously chose to use it like one. Yet never the less through most of the late edo period Winning these matches was considered the mark of a master swordsmen.

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>>2787927
>Spears ARE better than swords in most contexts.
>A.U.C. 646 + 2124
>Still using spears

Ego SHIGGYDIGGY

>>2788360
>Ego SHIGGYDIGGY
You don't know the most basic Latin, so please stop pretending that you do/using Google Translate. It is very cringy.

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>>2788413
>You don't know the most basic Latin, so please stop pretending that you do/using Google Translate. It is very cringy.

Damn /his/ really is a pioneer of completely new and thus far undocumented levels of autism spectrum disorders.

if you're going for something akin to judo, glima.

>>2788360
Romans were using spears as their primary weapons again by the start of the 3rd century.

Ngl, that looks really LARPy

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>>2788465
welcome to HEMA bro!

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>>2788492
People who say shit like this about HEMA and reenactment forget how massively more embarrassing LARP is

Most high up HEMA dudes are pretty good athletes and reenactors put a lot of time and money into their appearance and demonstrations, which can be educational as well as entertaining

LARPers are just dorks

I'm not going to pretend that a lot of HEMA and reenactment guys aren't dorks too but less so than LARPers

>>2788465
When a foreigner uses English words but the logic and grammar of their first language it looks cringy. That's pretty much what that anon (you?) did. Is pointing that out really so extremely autistic to you?

>>2788539
shiggydiggy?

>>2788539
>Is pointing that out really so extremely autistic
>That anon makes a joke about spears
>Uses 1 Latin word
>WHAT THE FUCK YOU CAN'T JUST DO THAT ITS SO CRINGYYYYYYYYYY

>>2788578
You don't know anything about Latin either, don't you?

>>2788584
Would you describe yourself as a social type that has a large group of friends and a girlfriend?

>>2788584
The fact that multiple people seem to be pointing this out, having recognised the (attempted) humour, and yet you are still convinced that because you have some level of understanding of Latin (pretty much guaranteed not to be first-language level, as you suggest), you need to tell everyone how wrong he was and how cringy that one word was, shows us that you might actually have real life autism.

>>2788490
Yes, and it didn't end well for them.

>>2788617
Oh dear, 4channers are bringing other 4channers' social lives into question!

>>2788632
I didn't suggest that it's my first language, just used the suitable comparison.
You guys regularly get triggered by people misinterpreting historical facts but now misusing a language is perfectly fine.

>>2788661
So you would agree that your social life is questionable then?

>>2788675
Would you agree that your understanding of Latin is cringy to the extreme and only rubes would carry on after such a disgraceful display?

>>2788661
>You guys regularly get triggered by people misinterpreting historical facts but now misusing a language is perfectly fine.

I mean you're literally on a board where half the threads at any given time have titles such as:

Were Romans actually black?
Were Egyptians actually black?
Why are the English so perfidious?
Hitler was so stupid for attacking Russia, right /his/?
Did the holocaust even happen?
How evil are Jews really?

And yet one person makes uses one word of Latin to make a joke post and HOLY SHIT they just crossed the FUCKING LINE.

>>2788691
Oh, you must have mistaken me, I am not the original guy you are replying to. I had about 2 years of Latin in school, I was mediocre and we had mostly stuff from De Bello Gallico and I honestly do not remember that much anymore.

Anyways, I was just asking because you where accusing other people of autism, but judging by your reaction and how easy it is to troll you I am positive that you at least have some sort of Asperger syndrome.
Never mind, it is possible to live a more or less normal life with this, just make sure you find a niche job where you don't have much contact with people. Also, sex isn't really that great, you don't miss much.

>>2788675
Yes, I would, I have few friends and no girlfriend. Am I BTFO now?

>>2788706
>It is very cringy.
is the same as
>HOLY SHIT they just crossed the FUCKING LINE.
You don't think you're exaggerating a bit?
I'd also be pretty happy if those threads were purged but I simply found myself at that point before a post that should've been funny but wasn't, so I just felt like pointing out the mistake.

>>2788754
>so I just felt like pointing out the mistake.

Then point out the mistake. Using leddit terms like cringy will just make people think you're an aspie.

But you didnt point out a mistake, what you actually said was:

>You don't know the most basic Latin, so please stop pretending that you do/using Google Translate. It is very cringy.

Personally I also have little knowledge of Latin and if all you'd said was 'That 'Ego' should instead be X' no one would have cared, and we'd all be a little more enlightened for it.

But instead you revealed your power level, that was your first mistake.

>>2788778
Or you just could have changed the Ego in ergo, that would have made sense.
How would you describe your social life?

>>2788785
>Or you just could have changed the Ego in ergo, that would have made sense

I'm not the anon that made the original post, just one of the half dozen people calling you out for being an autist.

>>2788661
>4channers

>>2788814
I am not the original autist, just another autist who jumped the bandwagon. Pleasure meeting you sir!

>>2788654
What do you mean it didn't end well for them? The Late Roman Army was much larger, much better trained, much better equipped and had a much higher rate of success than its predecessors. The western Roman Empire eventually fell but it didn't have anything to do with their military.

>>2788870
>The Late Roman Army was much larger, much better trained, much better equipped and had a much higher rate of success than its predecessors.

Other than it being larger that's bullshit.

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>>2788883
read Southern and Dixon, my man

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>>2788870
>What do you mean it didn't end well for them?
I mean that it didn't end well for them.

>>2788883
I don't know about the other stuff but the late army was inarguably better equipped than the earlier Roman legions.

>>2788933
Why have you juxtaposed that statement with a painting of a fictional, hypothetical civilisation by Thomas Cole?

>>2788933
Are you saying that because the Roman army reintroduced spears they didn't live to see the fantastical landscape styling of the Hudson River Movement? Or are you one of the fucking retards who thinks that's a painting of Rome

>>2788958
>I don't know about the other stuff but the late army was inarguably better equipped than the earlier Roman legions.

Compared to the Legions of Trajan or Hadrian, no it wasn't.

>>2788979
What's your reasoning bud

>>2788883
>Other than it being larger that's bullshit
t. Vegetius

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>>2788961
Because this is an image board, and when we are already sidetracking the thread to shit then I thought we could at least have some art with it.
>like some Caravaggio with that?

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>>2788883
>he fell for the Goldsworthy meme

>>2788976
>Are you saying that because the Roman army reintroduced spears they didn't live to see the fantastical landscape styling of the Hudson River Movement?
Well, hard to say, if they hadn't switched to spears their empire would likely stand and prosper to this very day. On the other hand that means Britain would be a Roman province today and never ever would have given birth that bastard nation US of A.
So yes, spears are really bad.

>>2788520
Larper here:
Can confirm.

My group has a no fatfuck rule in place.
When all of your guys at least know what a squat is and the other side can't consistently run a mile, shit gets silly.

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>>2787927
>HEMA is not intended to be a sport. That's what makes it different from SPORT fencing that you see in the Olympics.

I'm old enough to remember ten some years ago where Hema in general was much more hostile to sport, and only saw sparring as a way to experiment and improve technique. Now I see people unabashedly say Hema is a sport and want greater coverage of it... Interesting evolution in ten years, back then it seemed to be all about the primary sources. Of course I know there are still Hema people who are very committed to just that, but there seems to be a growing presence interested in the sport aspects of it.

> I personally think wood is bad for sparring since it doesn't flex.

It isn't great for safe sparring, you either have to pull strikes, where a lot of protection or accept that there will be injuries like in an old fashion inter-school match. Though there are still styles of Kenjutsu which use them in a free style or semi freestyle manner.

>>2787402
He sources his claims, which puts him miles above the competitors

>>2788520
The larpers of my country look way better. What are those silly things they use for weapons? Here they tend to use shit than looks like swords of whatever, armor etc.

>>2788360

What do you think the Hasta means in Hastati

>>2784379
The Romans brought spears back for a number of reasons, They never really stopped using them really, the Auxilia were often armed with them. In any case the sword and shield was not a good choice with the increasing amounts of heavy Calvary that appeared after Rome's fall

>>2784379
This would be so much cooler if it mixed martial arts from different cultures, imagine switching from euro sword fighting to some obscure middle eastern style in a fight

>>2794139
>bastardize historical martial arts for some sort of de-blooded gladiator fight. Destroying what makes them unique and historically accurate

>>2794412
Well if it was to be an actual sport a bloodless gladiator fight would be better
If your into history then you can keep it realistic

>>2794422
>If your into history then you can keep it realistic

No you could not, in order to win styles would have to be altered to deal with weapon systems they would have never or rarely have encountered historically.

That's not even going into the issues of a fight with swords lacking blood being "realistic" There is a big difference between sparring for training and a decisive duel, or even a challenge match using blunt weapons.

>>2794452
If your into history you can have a separate thing for that
For mainstream stuff it could be a whole MMA with weapons type thing

>>2794501
Or we could not do that and focus energy on studying the systems we have now.

I want young, strong, and able bodied practitioners strengthening historical arts rather than a parody of them

>>2794501
Let me guess, you are American?

>>2794516
>I want young, strong, and able bodied practitioners strengthening historical arts rather than a parody of them
Your autism is striking again tonight. Honestly I'd be laughing my ass of if somebody in HEMA training came up with such bullshit!

>>2784622
t. Marxist "progressive" worried about resurgent interest in European culture and heritage

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>>2794523
>Flink wie Windhunde, zäh wie Leder und hart wie Kruppstahl
>said in a fake Hitler voice

pseudo-racists are seen as the gutter-rats of HEMA and treated as such

>>2794517
Yup

>>2794558
Look, it is way more fun to train a system, research stuff, and have some full contact going on within the limits of your own system than to fight semi realistic gladiator fights with puffy sticks.
Swords just don't work that way and people have better things to do.

>>2794568
Thats said, I'd love me a steel match with a Kenjutsu practitioner, partially so check some things out.

>>2794574
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WoYNb6lr94

The most popular European martial art today is Krav Maga. Was developed by Czech Jews.

It's also the only Euro martial art that isn't treated as a game/sport

inb4 Jews don't count as Europeans

>>2794544
>having an interest in your culture and heritage makes you racist
off yourelf

>>2794544
Juden bitte :^)

>>2794729
>>2794730
The average HEMA practitioner is a history nerd and sword aficionado that just enjoys doing HEMA. Usually they are very friendly well educated and are something like the fit equivalent of TTRPG groups.
Then there is off course /pol/ assholes who for some reason. think they need to make a huge issue of the "European" in HEMA and turn it into one of their shit debates.
In HEMA circles such people are shunned, and since none of them is competent in any way virtually ignored.

No one wants anything to do with you guys or link HEMA to some volkisch shit just because you like Varg videos.

>>2794764
My point is that showing interest in your culture and heritage doesn't automatically make you a racist
Because of that statement suddenly I'm a 1488er sieg heil? What the fuck is wrong with you?

>>2794764
My impression is most Hema people have at least a passing interest in sword arts from other cultures as well.

Of course Europe has a great martial tradition worth being proud of, and even though they are just reconstructed Hema seems to be producing some good sword material, to my eye anyway. Of course you also seem to get people with a chip on their shoulder that people dont "appreciate" european martial arts enough

>>2794858
I guess thats why you call everyone instantly a Marxist then? Or call them Juden?
Loving your culture and heritage indeed doesn't make you a racist, being a racist turd makes you a racist.
Now fuck off and keep /pol/ out of HEMA.

>>2784967
>Thats one thing the Japanese arts talk about a lot, sparring and tournament fighting lend themselves to very fast "jumpy" footwork and cutting with the arms rather than the whole body in order to score a touching "point" before the other guy. This is particularly a problem with lightweight training weapons.

You are talking about kendo here.

The least authentic "martial art" it is a sport not a martial art.

If you want to talk about kenjutsu have a look at tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu or other koryu schools.

>>2794764
It probably burns you pretty bad that people get involved in HEMA in order to connect with their traditional European culture.
>/pol/
Man who brought up /pol/ and whats your beef with Volkisch German heritage?

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>>2794902
That is not strictly true. Not either of those things.

Kendo is a marital sport not pure sport, and while it is mostly modern fencing even a koryu guy like Meik Skoss has commented that the kendo kata properly understood contain most of what you need to know about kenjutsu.

>If you want to talk about kenjutsu have a look at tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu or other koryu schools.

Kendo came from somewhere, it came from various koryu kenjutsu traditions, of which TSKSR is only one example.

While I respect the work of Draeger and those who came after them, there work often presented a view of koryu kenjutsu skewed towards the surviving styles from the late sengoku and early edo. Information is better now, and we know that often by the late Edo period styles like TSKSR were considered outdated oddities, and not as practical as those styles of fencing that engaged in gekiken; matches with shinai and bogu. While such practices were closer to real swordsmanship than kendo, they often adopted many of those things like going for the point and jumpy footwork. With later schools standing very upright, on the balls of their feet. While only a few of these schools survive today in a state near their orignial vitality, they offer a very different view of koryu.

>>2794878
Your a fucking shitter.
- Open up by calling it larping and gay and not a sport
- Respond to people calling you out by calling them literally hitler.

Yup nope your another pooptypants marxist. Go back to 1918 your ideology is dying.

>>2795045
>- Open up by calling it larping and gay and not a sport
not me

>>2795045
>- Respond to people calling you out by calling them literally hitler.
thats me, because >>2794521 & >>2794523 had this nice Leni Riefenstahl vibe to it.

I'm 85% sure you are the same autist that haunts the /asp/ hema thread with his shit.

>>2795076
because >>2794516 & >>2794523
my bad, sorry

>>2794878
>>2795076
I'm not the guy who called you a marxist or a juden you fucking idiot
These are my only replies to you >>2794729
>>2794858
And stop thinking that everyone who calls you a marxist or a juden or whatever is from /pol/, it's just banter most of the time

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>>2794574
>>2794596
That vid is pretty much the only one I know, though the style here is a modern one: Toyama ryu Habiki gekiken.

you are unlikely to find many qualified koryu kenjutsu guys who will so something like this, though I believe Ellis Amdur (pictured here >>2784764) Has friends in Hema who he has crossed trained with.

There is a saying in Koryu: "Jibun no ryuha wo mamoru" or "I will protect my school" This means not only protecting its reputation, but protecting its technical and "spiritual" integrity. A 2-400 year old style is like a rare flower in a green house. If not carefully preserved it will be lost forever. That means the culture that has preserved them is very very conservative.

Within the koryu community there are a lot of styles that either publicly or on the down low test things either in house or against other kenjutsu styles, but to do so publicly against an art kenjtusu was never intended to fight, would seem a bridge too far for many teachers, especially those who see a match with live blades as the only true test. Students are generally bound by their teachers directives in a way not found in modern arts. That said there are a lot of people with kenjutsu experience floating around the Hema world.

>>2784379
How many people do a sword art here?

>>2787402
Too good for /his/, t-b-h

>>2798843
Longsword, some sword and buckler.

Mainly have experience with Scottish Basket Hilts, what with being Scottish.

HEMA is good fun, but we always need to keep it in context, refer to the sources and keep a distinction between tournament and good form.

Also not everyone is super dedicated and fit and that's fine, I doubt everyone with a sword in the past was a master swordsman.

I also would like to see more focus on spears and polearms, but unfortunately sources are more limited.