Question to those who are seriously religious

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7vvPXz-Qes

because I think it's true? christianity is the only formidable religion on the planet, I think there's something to it.

>>2775872
That was delightful. Orthodox is the comfiest form of Christianity. Does not answer my question though

>>2775878
I do not think it is true, and I can't get on board with the anti-lgbt and some of its strict edicts on sex. Not offended by them in a SJW way, but I just don't agree with them at all.

I do think there is something to it though, a shame Christianity is on such a sharp decline in the west.

Not religious anymore, but used to be. It really depends on your presuppositions. My religion was intellectually satisfying, and for every objection I had, I was able to come up with some sort of reasonable explanation. Until I couldn't anymore.

Now I'm non-religious, and everyone around me is coming up with boring, trite, retarded fucking answers to questions I had thought long about long before, as did many thinkers in my tradition before me. And they think they've come to interesting conclusions, but they're as misguided and dumb as the religious folk I'd left behind.

I still admire Christianity, as you do. But it just isn't tenable. And the vast majority of its followers, at least in the modern West, aren't really Christian at all.

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>>2775887
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQAgrCuKwPc

Those who think religion is anything more than philosophy told through allegorical language are brainlets.

>>2775890
the family unit was the only social safety net for your average person a thousand years ago in a primitive, harsh world of slavery and tribal conflict. the strict edicts serve to protect the unit. today it seems stupid but it brought europe out of the barbarian ages.

>>2775903
>anything more than Philosophy

Depending on the religion it can be a political discussion as well.

I think it has more fantastical claims than just about any mainline philosophy and makes more unfounded metaphysical assertions

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>>2775858

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>>2775899
That was fucking beautiful holy shit

>abrahamic religions

>>2775909
I also want to mention that pre-christian pagan's sexual morals weren't any better than the christians. They actually executed adulterers and homosexuals. Christianity had a progressive influence on them in this sense.

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>>2775917

Constantinople shall be ours once more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwFYUJb03d0

>>2775872
>>2775899
>>2775930
>This is how the Orthodox Church converts people

>>2775913
Read that all and it just seems the poster is an impressionable and one of those who are easily led on.

>>2775933
Have to say it is working more on me than any televangelist or door to door converters

>>2775950
It speaks to the soul. Like our Lord said, The spirit willing but the flesh is weak

>>2775894
this is interesting. tell me more.

>>2775945
I was lead on because I knew my shepherd's voice.

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>>2775933
>>2775950
There is no conversion taking place. You, the lost sheep are returning back to your shepherd Christ whom promised you everlasting life in his kingdom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKLwutElZ-s

>>2775858
>I see no reason to believe the bible over greek mythology or JRR Tolkein's Legendarium.
My morals align with the Bible, therefore it is the religion I follow.

Simple as that.

>>2775962
No. First it was Nietzsche who was the figure of authority, then it changed to nature and the latest one is the bible study group. All these phases are marked by an incredible hostility towards any opposing view.

>>2775872
I like it. I love religious songs/chants without accompaniment. Here's one where the whole congregation sings the Psalms a cappella: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZBgjepiRJc

I also confess a certain admiration for the Islamic adhan, when done well and without too much fancypants shit.

>>2775909
>bible mandates that rapists marry their victims
>libfags and feminists ree
>too stupid to realize that when left to their own devices men prefer women that aren't pre-owned and that a woman whose had her packaging fiddled with in ye olden times isn't going to find a man willing to marry her, to say nothing of the risk of her being pregnant with the rapist's child
>somehow ancient child-support laws are a bad thing in the eyes of modern feminists

grinds my gears that people can't put two and two together and would rather meme

>>2775989
Upon comparing Nietzche's voice with Christ's I found that Christ's was more familiar. This was odd because even though I had deliberately rejected Him before He still knew me and He still knows me now. I know Nietzche's voice but he only knew the adolescent me.

>>2775933
This is the one where I first felt the presence of God.
https://youtu.be/EzeifvBH_cs

>>2776011
beautiful

Same OP. I really admire the messages/lessons/aesthetics that religion brings to the table, but I can't reconcile that with the evil done in its name now and throughout history and the arrogance of some of its adherents

I tried really hard when I was a kid to believe, I even went to private christian school from k-5 but there was always a voice in the back of my head that knew it was false

I remember one story in particular, we were doing our morning chapel and the principle/pastor was talking about Eden I think. He mentions in a nonchalant way: "Yeah, they found human fossils riding on top of dinosaur fossils"

This is when I quit religion gg

>>2775997
You may like this Christian Orthodox chant in Arabic

https://youtu.be/8-EfW7gYzns

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Speaking purely for myself, my main reason for believing is that I have faith. I have faith in the reality of God, in the truth of the Gospels, and in the divine foundations of the Church of Rome. I know that won't satisfy you or other doubters, but that is why I believe. I know beyond knowing. I know it's true in a transcendent sense.

My "logical" reason may be even more wild to you: I believe in the inescapable reality of the supernatural. I believe there is a spiritual, mystical, otherworldly aspect of our existent world that simply can't be escaped if a person is honest with himself or herself. Prophecies come true. People take photos of ghosts on their iPhones. Prayers are answered. Our world is ghostly, demon-haunted, populated by gods, monsters, spirits, angels, and above all, God is evidently real and is active in the world. As a practicing Catholic, I have particular awareness of this, because the Church still bears witness to miracles that occur in Christ's name, from weeping statues to bleeding Eucharists to apparitions of the saints, the angels, the Blessed Virgin, and even of Christ Himself.

So I suppose my "logical" reason for believing is that I totally reject skepticism and materialism. I've gone full /x/, and religion is easy for me as a result.

>>2776098
>ghostly, demon-haunted, populated by gods, monsters, spirits, angels
that sounds like heresy

>>2776098
Basically you believe because you really want to. Cool. You realize the same argument could be made with respect to Islam or amy religion, and even secular utopian ideologies such as Marxism as a matter of fact, and it is impossible to decide in favor of the truth of any of them? I thought religion was supposed to be about the ultimate truth. If you had been born in another country you would believe in whatever the dominant religion was?

>>2776117
Not really, Medieval Catholics all took those sorts of things seriously. They genuinely believed in witches, for example. Thomas Aquinas even writes about them in the Summa.

I used to be Christian, like lots of people my parents were Christian so I basically became one. As I grew up problems for me started arising, one of my problems was that I kept overthinking everything when it came to the concept of hell, sexuality, natural disasters, disabilities, etc.. A lot of my overthinking caused me lots of anxiety. Once I found out there were other religions and I started reading about them(specifically Judaism and Islam). I wondered why An all knowing and loving God would create beings that would create these different religions and split them up. According to Christianity all non believers go to hell, so why would he pre determine lives that he knew he would send to hell? Like how do Christians or people of any religion know that their one is the "right" one. I could've been born in a Muslim household and I would've followed that religion and believed the same thing too about how non believers go to hell. It felt kind of messed up to be that all these people of different faiths would go to hell simply because they grew up with different religions. I may sound like a pussy, but it was kind of hard for me to cope with, I had friends of different religions at a young age. Then there's stuff like the problem of evil which also caused me to question my faith. All this overthinking and feeling overly ashamed caused lots of anxiety and it wasn't healthy for me. I don't consider myself a perfect person now that I left or "enlightened", but I feel happier this way. I still follow morals and shit, I consider myself an agnostic now. Who knows maybe if I grew up with a better understanding and teaching of Christianity, I would still be part of the faith

Religion has more to do with things you can't measure, such as values, meaning and purpose.

I'm a Christian. When I read the Bible, I read a story of violence, slavery, falls from grace, injustice, anger, sadness, hatred, violence, and finally a man who comes along to show what it truly means to human, which is that you treat even your worst enemies with dignity, and that you consider even the worst forms of life sacred. The Bible to me is life in book form. It has all the ups and downs one encounters in real life, all the horrors and tribulations, all the villians and heroes, all the great crimes and great gestures of character. To me, it is astonishing, in its scope, its layers of meaning and its richness of subject matter. I've thrown everything I had at it in my life, but I simply could not shake off my roots. I tried to leave, I tried to go my own way, but it never worked. Now, going your own way might work for some people, but it just doesn't work for me. I simply need some overriding structure to guide me through life, and the Bible provides that for me, and with me billions of people, every day.

When I was like 15 I prayed for 50 dollars and literally got 50 dollars the next day, my old lady neighbor payed me to clean up her house.

it always freaked me out and I never prayed for anything materialistic since then.

>>2776359
>>2776142

>>2775945

That and he only seems to be interested in power and how influential something is, not whether it actually deals with empathy and human dignity.

I see this copypasta a lot, and I cringe every time I see it. I seems that people like him are solely religious for cultural reasons, and not because anything spiritual, anything beyond themselves drew them in.

They also seem obsessed with whatever is deemed 'white': 'white' culture, 'white' civilisation and 'white' values, which sounds like idolatry to me.

It's also hilarious to consider that many of these people are anti-semitic, when Jesus was a jew himself

>>2776368

I can't tell you why I choose Christianity. It clicked with me in the most subjective manner possible. When you're out 'shopping' for a worldview, it can never really click with you, because stuff like this has to be experienced first hand. Maybe Marxism fits you. Maybe existentialism fits you. It just depends on your specific set of needs. I didn't become a Christian because I wanted it, I became one because I needed it. I can't tell you what you need, all I can do is show you what I need

>>2775858
Because believing in Jesus is serious business.

(seriously)

>>2775913
>I discovered Nietzsche and decided that I didn't need God anymore

Wew. Way to miss the fucking point.

>>2775858
Okay, so it's a supernatural problem eh? Do you believe that miracles can only exist in one religious belief system?

>>2775858
This OP can't be answer seriously. This is one of the dumbest questions I've heard.

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>>2775858
I personally think that there is an innate need in men for faith. It is faith in everything will be good. The details matter not and are part of personal preference, local and family culture.
But I think that the essence of many religions, mystical systems, magical systems, ideologies, scientific discovery and so on, if stripped of all details that (in my view) are means of but not the goal, is strive towards ultimate good.

>>2775894
What about christian gnostic systems then? Those I know about do not fall into this trap of adding hebrew religion into it (which in my opinion caused incoherence in roman state christian church started with dispute between fathers of church and Marcion of Sinope).

>>2775903
>those who disagree with my righteous beliefs are brainlets
I see.

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>>2775899
>Those gorgeous chord progressions

>>2775858
Because we need to be saved when Judgement Day has come

I'll never understand "Christians" who are in interfaith marriages/relationships or "Christians" in relationships/marriages with non religious people

>>2776801
>tfw no Christian bf to respectfully disagree with

>>2775858
Because it's true and real. Not much more to it than that

>>2776801
It's surprisingly hard to get married to other Christians in some places and churches. I know that in the church I went to when I was religious, men were pretty much guaranteed to be single for the rest of their lives, and if any single women visited or joined the congregation, it was like sharks in a feeding frenzy. It was incredibly depressing. I had joined because of the theology and worship, but left because the people made me want to kill myself (amongst other reasons).

Also, Christians are as horny as any other group. Perhaps even more so. It is not at all uncommon for Christians, Muslims, Jews, to date outside of their religions, despite prohibitions against this. Affairs are incredibly common. I once read a while back that evangelical youths were more likely than nonbelievers to have had multiple sexual partners by some certain teen age that I can't remember. On a popular level, really, religious people barely know anything at all about their religions. Practice is inconsistent, at best. Every single major world religion has this problem.

>>2776863
I get what you're saying. I don't see how a Christian can be in a relationship with a muslim and get married to one even though their views on Jesus Christ and the trinity contradict each other. It literally says in the bible to not be yoked with unbelievers and that only Jesus is the way to salvation. A lot of this happens in America, I wonder how many "Christians" in America are actually devout Christians

>>2775890
>and I can't get on board with the anti-lgbt and some of its strict edicts on sex
>christians won't let me have my buttsex, how could they possibly be true about anything!
jesus fucking christ

>>2776908
Shit bait mate.

>>2776908
Why would an all knowing God Create people that would be homosexuals that would engage in homosex, get AIDS, be persecuted by Christians/Muslims, and go to hell. Since homosexuality is a sin and God supposedly loves all his children, why would he pre determine the lives of people that would homosexuals that would burn in hell for eternity? Why would he create homosexuals in the first place? It's seem pretty cruel desu

>>2776932
Go on /r9k/ homosexuality is a choice made by sinners because they are weak.

>>2776930
Not a bait at all, it's basically "I want hedonism, therefore christianity is wrong". Shit argument.
>>2776932
>Why would an all knowing God Create people that would be homosexuals that would engage in homosex
Nobody is putting a gun to their head and telling them they have to be homosex. Even more, nobody is telling them to do so at the rates they are.

>>2776936
So God isn't all knowing then, he doesn't pre determine everyone's lives then?

>>2776932
Also this "people are born gay" stuff is getting old. Homosexuality has a very low heritability. Placental explanations are still dead in the water

>>2776941
> I want hedonism, therefore christianity is wrong
It is the legit argument, God created us to be hedonistic.

>>2776946
> Homosexuality has a very low heritability
Doesn't mean that you can't be born gay.

>>2776963
you can be born with homosexual desires but nobody forces you to act on them, that's your choosing.

Some people might be born with the propensity to drink heavily and shirk their responsibilities but it is up to them to realize this and remedy it themselves.

>>2776982
Why would god even put homosexual desires in people in the first place

>>2776984
To test their self-control and ability to refrain from sinning.

Also, homosexual desires need to be nurtured like normal sexual desires, nobody is born thinking about getting fucked in the ass, a propensity for that behaviour has to be consciously nurtured

>>2776960
Nope.
>>2776963
Then what causes it? It's not genetic, we don't have any working hypothesis for pregnancy related effects, what is it? It's literally the only trait leftists assume is inborn until proven otherwise.

>>2777003
> Nope.
Yeap. Humans are naturally attracted to pleasure and if God was so against it, he could change what are pleasurable for us and what is not.

>>2777003
> Then what causes it?
Could be the hormonal influence of the mother on a baby development for example. Same way how people are born stupid if their mother abuses drugs so much.

>>2777015
>we don't have any working hypothesis for pregnancy related effec
Could be doesn't mean shit. We barely have any evidence on that.
>>2777011
r/atheism-tier objection

>>2777022
> r/atheism-tier objection
Looks like it is strong enough to not be answered properly.

>>2777022
> We barely have any evidence on that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_orientation

>>2777034
Exactly, we barely have any evidence for that. If you read the page you linked, you'd know the evidence is scarce and often contradicted by other findings.

There is no way to convert a person, they have to be willing to go into it like a small child, umble themselves if you will. Forgo your intellect at least during the beginning, if you truly want to believe. All the responsibility and workload on the be believer is on him/her, if you want to believe you will, if you're looking for a debate you will find yourself mocking the scriptures.

>>2777063
Sorry for typos, phoneposting. Umble=humble. The be believer= the new believer

>>2775858
>I see no reason whatsoever to believe Jesus rose from the dead of Muhammad
I don't communicate with retards

>>2775858
I don't belong to a specific church anymore and I don't really consider myself a Christian, but it's how I was raised and I still believe in God. I'm one of those people who thinks all the major religions are valid. I know it sounds new agey but whatever.

A religious/spiritual view of the world is just the one that makes the most sense of what I experience to me. The comparison I usually use is that it's like a pair of glasses. If we both wear glasses, they're probably not going to be the same prescription. If I wear yours the world will look fuzzy and vice versa, but it looks clear when we wear our own. Doesn't mean either of our pairs of glasses is better or more correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THopBTyIrH0

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>>2775858
Because Christianity is the truth, and all other faiths are of demons. So get baptized.

>>2775858
I found the teachings of the Buddha to be wise, and useful when applied to my everyday life. He questions many oft-assumed concepts like causality that lead to nothing but infinite regress, and compositions like the soul that are purported to be everlasting, but are composed of ephemeral aggregates. Gotama Buddha himself stated it was important to live a virtuous life even if karma and rebirth weren't real, and I can't find a single sutta that condones violence.

>>2777168
You keep using this claim as if it holds any real value. This is why no one takes you seriously. People need to be shown the way, not told that it's true because it's true.

>>2777183
Read your bible. I'm not going to beg you to come to Christ. The majority of people do not believe and do not inherit eternal life, Satan.

>>2775913
Thats a pretty sad story about the closing of a persons mind before settling on the one of the making truth based on it providing comfort alone.

No engagement with other religious texts and theologians and practice

No engagement with athiesm besides a single thinker in the teenage years

This is what religious conversion in a consumer society looks like

>>2777251
>Read your bible
>Educate yourself
The only response you can give when you know you're not Christ-like enough to teach others.

>>2776863
>I know that in the church I went to when I was religious, men were pretty much guaranteed to be single for the rest of their lives, and if any single women visited or joined the congregation, it was like sharks in a feeding frenz

Which group was this I thought most religions were a majority women?

>but left because the people made me want to kill myself

How so?

>>2775923

Source? Not all pagans are the same.

>>2775858
Because I have Beheld the Almighty Glourie of The Amazing Dildoni, and I know that it will soon penetrate all the anuses in the world.

Bow and you might be spared.

I think there's good messages in most religions, but it's ultimately irrational nonsense packaged up to dupe people.
I was raised in an atheist environment and have never felt a religious impulse.

>>2775858
Nobody owes you explanations.

>>2776932

Homosexuality is not the sin, sodomy and fornication are.

>>2775858
>I see no reason whatsoever to believe Jesus rose from the dead

This is just your normalcy bias and empiricism talking.

I see no reason whatsoever that God cannot do as he wills.

>>2776932

He didn't.

They created themselves for their own reason. Have you never noticed that gays reject God first, and then act out on being gay?

That 99.99999% of gays hate God?

It's all due to confirmation bias desu

>>2777841
>homosexuality is not the sin
It says in the bible that it's an abomination and that homos will not inherit the kingdom of god. Jesus said "those who look at a woman lustfuilly has already committed adultery in their heart". I don't see why this logic shouldn't also be applied to homosexuals. Having homosexual desires is also a sin. Again, why would god put these desires in people in the first place. He created people that he knew would go to hell in the first place, gays never stood a chance according to the bible.

Where did Jesus get his Y chromosome?

Male children get their X chromosome from the mother, and the Y chromosome from the father. Jesus did not have a father, so where did he get the Y chromosome?

>>2778152

No, it says people who actually commit the act are sinners.

Fornication with the same or opposite sex is the same crime, lust is the same sin whether it is for the same or opposite sex.

So no, homosexuality is not, in itself, a sin.

Matthew 19:12 - "For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others--and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

>Again, why would god put these desires in people in the first place. He created people that he knew would go to hell in the first place, gays never stood a chance according to the bible.

First, he didn't put those desire in these people, homosexuality is the result of many different environmental and biological factors working together. Second, they absolutely have a chance, as being gay is not in itself a sin, fornication and lust are.

There is ZERO difference between a straight couple fornicating and two gay people fornicating in terms of sinfulness.

This is something that I have been trying to figure out myself. I have recently been watching a lot of Jordan Peterson's lecture where he emphasizes the "moral truth" that can be found in religion and religious stories and how they are crucial to our belief and value systems and thus how we act in the world. However where I got lost is where do you make the leap from saying that the bible and religious stories must be approached like literature such as Dostoyevsky or Shakespeare and saying that God actually exists? Peterson makes a good point with some stories where God is a representation of culture or the archetypical father figure yet it isn't clear to me at what point you say that he actually does exist. In response to a similar question like this all Peterson seems to say is that he acts as if God exists rather than consciously believing that he does.

It just isn't clear where to draw the line in the sand between what is metaphorical and what is taken as, I guess, literal. Even in the examples you put forward, such as other religions and Tolkien, there are many archetypes, themes, and moral stories that are shared between them while the specific details could be vastly different. There is reason to believe there is inherent value in religious stories, but I find it hard to believe in the specific details. Why would I believe that Jesus rose from the grave anymore than I believe that Gandalf rose from the grave? They are both stories of sacrifice and resurrection, and so you could argue that the archetypical meanings of the two are similar but it is the literal interpretation which I just don't follow.

>>2778176
>he didn't put those desire in these people, homosexuality is the result of many different environmental and biological factors working together.
If he's omnipotent and omniscient, he's ultimately responsible. He "invented" the environment.

>>2778195

He's about as responsible as a parent is for their child growing up to become a criminal.

i.e. Not really

>>2778184
Middle earth is not real
The lands that Jesus visited were real(Israel, Syria, etc.)
No one in the LOTR mythology is real
St. Peter and St. Paul were real human beings
The writings of Josephous prove Jesus is real

>>2778209
Parents aren't able to see the future and they aren't all perfect and all powerful beings like god.

>>2778222

Omniscience can just as easily be taken to mean knowing all possibilities, leaving room for choice. And when God wants us to make good choices of our own will, he is not going to use his power to force us to do what he wants.

>>2778209
No, if he's omniscient he knows immediately the entire outcome of any of his actions. And if he's omnipotent, he can take any action he wants. How can he be benevolent if he knowingly takes actions that cause harm when he can just as easily not?

If you were an architect, why would you choose to build a house that you know will collapse?

>>2778229

see >>2778228

He could know every potential outcome, the choice of which becomes reality is still up to us.

Omnipotence is a moot point when he wants us to freely choose our way.

>If you were an architect, why would you choose to build a house that you know will collapse?

Invalid comparison, as the blueprints for the house are sound, it is more like the incompetence of the workers building it (i.e. us) that cause collapse in this case.

>>2778228
How do you leave room for choice when you know exactly how people think?

>he is not going to use his power to force us to do what he wants.
Should a parent let a child play in traffic? Of course not, that's negligence.

>>2778242

>How do you leave room for choice when you know exactly how people think?

Because people have free will? Nobody thinks the same way throughout their whole life unless they are intellectually stunted or stubborn. People have the capacity to change and God won't force them to change if they don't want to.

>Should a parent let a child play in traffic? Of course not, that's negligence.

A parent warns their child of hazards, as God warns us. What the child chooses to do is their own fault, not the parents'.

>>2778218
That is true but at what point do you say the events actually happened? Sure you can say all the disciples were real people, the locations were real locations, and that there was a man called Jesus. But at what point do you say that Jesus actually was crucified and returned from the grave? Where do you make the distinction between fact and fiction. A good example of this would be something like I, Claudius. It is a fictional biography yet it is focused on real people that existed, real events, and real locations. Yet we can't take that book as an accurate account of that time period and treat it like an academic source. You have to be able to point out where there is artistic license taken and where actual facts are present.

The main point I am trying to make is how or where to take the leap from stories being metaphorical and taking them as a literal account of events, people, or God. Without the leap to the literal then religious stories seem to fall into the realm of literature, which can have substantial effects on one's moral and value belief systems.

>>2778250
>Because people have free will
No they don't. An omniscient god would know exactly how the human brain works. He would know exactly what choice people will make before they make it.

>What the child chooses to do is their own fault, not the parents'.
So one warning is enough? And if after that warning, the child still chooses to play in traffic, you wouldn't run out and save it?

>>2777292
I have read other religious texts and the Tao Te Ching would probably be my favorite non-Christian one but when I look at the impact that various religions have had on global history Christianity stands out as exceptional.

Also, while my faith is definitely a source of comfort to me it was not the only reason for my conversion. As I mentioned in the story my questions about the nature morality and whether it was relativistic or objective would probably be one of the more "intellectual" reasons for why I believe.

>>2776373
I confess that I am drawn to things that are powerful and influential but my reason for that is it seems to be evidence for its truth and validity; if something claims to be true but cannot affect reality then that is suspicious to me.

I don't understand your criticism about lack of empathy and human dignity because both of those are at the heart of the Gospel. When I was an atheist, I didn't think human life had any intrinsic value but learning about being made in the image of God and that God would sacrifice His own son for our benefit made me change my belief.

I also don't see how anything I wrote is anti-semitic but I guess people will see what they want to see.

>>2778265
>He would know exactly what choice people will make before they make it.
He knows who they were before, the choice, and who they will be after depending on the choice they made. Who you want to be is on you.

>>2778265

>No they don't. An omniscient god would know exactly how the human brain works. He would know exactly what choice people will make before they make it.

Wrong. An omniscient God would know all the possibilities, since humans are capable of reasoned thought some will choose one way, others will choose another. There is no reason to assume people are set in their ways.

Your understanding of omniscience is flawed.

>So one warning is enough?

We get reminders all the time of why certain behaviors are bad for us.

>And if after that warning, the child still chooses to play in traffic, you wouldn't run out and save it?

There are constant attempts to save you, every time you hear the word or think about it.

That you choose to resist those attempts is on you, it's akin to refusing to change your diet even though your doctor tells you you're bordering on diabetes because you don't like the rules you'll have to follow to get well again.

>>2778292
An omniscient god would know exactly the state of your brain at the moment you were given the choice. In much the same way that you can predict the output of a random number generator if you know the seed, an omniscient god would be able to predict your choice since he knows the exact state your brain is in. There is no free will.

Would you run out and actually physically prevent your child from playing in traffic?

>>2778336

>An omniscient god would know exactly the state of your brain at the moment you were given the choice.

And no matter what your "state of mind" you still retain conscious control. Is it difficult? Sure, impossible? No.

>In much the same way that you can predict the output of a random number generator if you know the seed, an omniscient god would be able to predict your choice since he knows the exact state your brain is in. There is no free will.

Incomparable since people are not a random number generator.

There is free will whether you like it or not and determinism has been debunked numerous times.

>Would you run out and actually physically prevent your child from playing in traffic?

Sure, I would. An immediate physical threat likely to lead to death is not the same as choosing the state of your soul, however.

>>2776142
Why do you think that matters?
It's like saying "if you'd been born a fish you would breathe water!" and treating it like a profound statement.

At the end of the day though you weren't born a fish, so why are you concerning yourself with such nonsense?

>>2775967
Beautiful music and art always has this effect

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAvlimEYEpQ

in b4

>disgusting arab vomiting

it doesn't have to be a Muslim call to prayer, it could be anything you find beautiful with a message behind it. It's just emotivism. Enjoying Orthadox chanting is not evidence for Jesus Christ sacrificing himself on the cross for humanity's singing.

I find Islamic calls to prayer, as well a Buddhist chanting and mantras, to be hypnotic and beautiful. It doesn't mean I'm Buddhist or Muslim.

>>2778343
>An immediate physical threat likely to lead to death is not the same as choosing the state of your soul, however.
How? Is the final destination of your soul not just as, or more consequential than life or death?

Can you define conscious control in a rigorous way?

>>2775858
It isn't the religion of Christianity or the denomination / sect that is important at all. It might be valuable to some.

What is taught by Jesus is not what the churches teach, in fact Jesus and the apostles go to churches / synagogues and get into trouble for teaching the Word of God. They did not like the fact that Jesus and His disciples actually tore down religious hypocrisy and hierarchy.

Most people don't know this. They believe Christianity is a particular sect when really it is about applying what is taught by Jesus in our every day life.

Even more, Jesus and God are within us. We cultivate it over time.

Are there christians here who have had mentally ill family members/friends that have killed themselves or had family members/friends that died of disease or birth defects? Like how you do become a Christian when such awful things have happened in your life? How do you still maintain your faith? Do people who have had this happen to them actually believe god gives everyone a purpose and that he has a plan for everyone? Why would God the only perfect being in the universe create people who have these genetic disorders, why would he create people who's only purpose in life is to die? It seems really strange that he'd do this and allow people to become bitter and resentful at him. I know why diseases, defects, cancer, and mental illnesses happen scientifically, but why do they happen religiously? Why does god do this

>>2777003
>>2776946
Not everything congenital is genetic, nor is everything genetic congenital.

>>2778349
You know very well that that's a false equivalence. As anon said, religion is about the ultimate truth, and there is no "one true habitat" to live in.

You've basically admitted that you believe that if you were born in Saudi Arabia you would b a Muslim. You would believe that Allah is the one true God and that Muhammed was his greatest prophet.

You are not Christian for any reason other than that you were conditioned to be one.

>>2778366
My uncle was mentally ill and the way this and all the other things you listed are explained in a biblical worldview is that it is a consequence of sin entering into creation after the Fall.

Fundamentally it seems your question is about the "problem of evil" and there really is no easy solution to that.

>>2778366
People attract certain conditions, positive and negative. The physical world is transitory, everything that exists is changing. The life of this world is nothing like the world to come, so disease and suffering are all transitory.

Even Jesus is subject to suffering in the physical world. Certain bad things happen because of karma association to bad things, or people might be persecuting an innocent person. The same with disease is caused by karma or genetics.

>>2778392
Was it hard for you to maintain your faith?
Do you ever question God in moments of weakness?
Do you overthink the concept of hell, sin, and the problem of evil at times?

>>2778366
Those things happen regardless, so not believing in God is no shield against them. The only thing you've done is choose to believe in a universe where horrible things happen for no reason rather than a universe where horrible things happen for a greater purpose that is beyond our understanding.

I don't know why anyone would choose to believe their suffering is hollow, arbitrary and meaningless but for some reason atheists seem to prefer it that way. Which comes across as needlessly masochistic to me but hey, it's the bed they've made for themselves.

The one true god is Tezcatlipoca, the destructor, the enemy of both sides, he whose slaves we are. The false king Quetzalcoatl has enslaved your minds with delusions of free will and choice. But there is but one path in the end and that path is to bow down to the master of masters, the king of kings, Tezcatlipoca!

>>2778356

>How? Is the final destination of your soul not just as, or more consequential than life or death?

The problem you're having here is you're thinking the destination is different. Everyone is exposed to the same "destination" as Heaven and Hell are not separate places, but your reaction to God's love.

But to answer your question, yes, it is important, but it isn't something I have personal control over when it comes to another person, and God, again, is not out to force people to choose him. He wants only the willing, everyone else is free to do as they please.

>Can you define conscious control in a rigorous way?

The ability to consider your options and make a choice? Stressful situations and the hormones released during the ensuing state can make this difficult and predispose you to more irrational or careless decisions but they are not all consuming and people often go against their instinctual reactions.

>>2778422
Have fun with that, heathen. You do you, try to sacrifice me to your devil god though and I'm calling the cops.

>>2778161
Who made DNA in the first place? Was it not the Father?

>>2778384
>and there is no "one true habitat" to live in.
Try and breathe under the sea, let me know how that works out for you, Mr. "No One True Environment".

>>2778403
I have definitely experienced seasons of spiritual dryness when my faith doesn't come as easily to me and I question God all the time even when things are going well. What keeps me grounded is remembering how ignorant I am of reality outside my narrow subjective experience and how God has helped me successfully navigate situations that had I followed my own ideas would have turned out negatively.

The problem of evil is one of those things that I think will always be a source of tension because there isn't any neat answer that just explains everything. So I don't really overthink it because it seems futile and this just reminds me again of the weakness of the human mind.

>>2778229
You keep emphasizing things that deny personal responsibility on YOUR part.

Stick to thinking of God as holy, just and righteous, because what you call "benevolent" fits Santa Claus, not the Lord of Hosts.

>>2778384
>You are not Christian for any reason other than that you were conditioned to be one.

Then he should thank God for his faithful and righteous parents, no?

Are his faithful and righteous parents preventing you from entering into the New Covenant?

>>2778451
There is, actually. The proper exercise of a free will moral agency requires apparently viable alternatives.

>>2778432
What is happening biologically when you make a choice?

>>2778452
How is it benevolent to let people who do not know better choose wrong and suffer because of it?

How is it benevolent to let people be born with fatal birth defects?

>>2778459
Yeah I'm familiar with that argument and I think it's generally a solid one, but like all things if you really want to nitpick it you can. For example, why not make the exercise of free will a choice between doing good and doing great?

>>2778461

Mostly sensory input, firing synapses and then output. There is still thoughtful consideration for most choices, not everything is an automatic response like pulling your finger away from a hot stovetop.

(Yes, I'm very familiar with neural circuitry involved in automated responses and no, most of the choices we make do not fall into that category).

Since there's an argument about homosexuality in this thread, is it actually possible to be a devout Christian and gay/lesbian at the same time? Like can you still be a Christian even though you have a partner of the same sex and kiss them, have oral sex, and do shit like that. As long as you don't partake in intercourse, can still be a Christian that dedicates their life to Jesus or is incompatible with the views of the bible

>>2778486
>There is still thoughtful consideration for most choices
How does this thoughtful consideration work?

>>2778488
it doesn't matter who you fuck, you just need faith.

>>2778488
All the gays I know are practicing christians,don't let the memers from /pol/ demoralise you.

>>2778474
Who are you to declare that lions and worms do not deserve to eat?

>>2778495
You can practice and still sin. That doesn't mean sinning is good.

>>2778488
The only place your seed is supposed to be spilled is inside your wife's bagina, so not really.

>>2778451
I don't personally agree with your faith at all but I just wanted to say I admire your loyalty to your God and you explain yourself very eloquently.

>>2778498
In Genesis it's specifically stated that the world exists for us.

>>2778488
No you cannot be embrace and celebrate a sinful lifestyle while claiming to be a follower of Jesus. Holy Scripture is clear that homosexual behavior is prohibited and while that doesn't mean that everuone who has had gay sex is automatically damned, we're all sinners after all, what it does mean is that you cannot claim to accept God's authority if you don't think there is anything wrong with something that God says is wrong. If someone has homosexual inclinations they can still be a Christian if they are repentant of those inclinations but if they don't see them as wrong then they are rejecting God's authority.

>>2778488

>Since there's an argument about homosexuality in this thread, is it actually possible to be a devout Christian and gay/lesbian at the same time?

100% yes

>Like can you still be a Christian even though you have a partner of the same sex and kiss them, have oral sex, and do shit like that. As long as you don't partake in intercourse, can still be a Christian that dedicates their life to Jesus or is incompatible with the views of the bible

No, this is still fornication.

Your feelings and attraction are not the sin, this behavior is.

>>2778490

You ever had to actually stop and think about a choice before dude? Hormonal influence can be powerful but it isn't everything. Even if you could predict to 99% accuracy what decisions someone would make in a particular circumstance, there will always been one detractor, and one minute bit of randomness is all it takes to establish an argument for free choice, biological influence not withstanding.

I don't have time to explain neuroscience to you on a Tibetan Origami Forum but try to understand that there are innumerable misconceptions people hold and propagate about what we know in popular science, and that there is far less conflict with our understanding of biology and faith than most laypeople think.

>>2778494
Hypocritical "christians" are not real Christians. The NT says that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of god

>>2778488
They used to have a problem with not being Jews, now they dont.

They used to have a probelm with people being uncircumcised, now they don't

Why not with gays; because when you chase after being gay, then it becomes a probelm. Lust is the sin, it happens to gay people and straight people.

>>2778525

Homosexuals who fornicate maybe and don't repent maybe, same with straight people who fornicate and don't repent.

There's absolutely zero reason a homosexual can't overcome their desires the same way heterosexuals do. Stop being homophobic and bigoted.

>>2778506
So?
How does that mean that animals do not deserve to eat? The world may have been created for us, but the world could not exist if the creatures within it were barred from doing what is necessary to sustain their own lives.

>>2778523
Does the brain follow physical laws?

>>2778500
He asked if it is possible to be LGBT and Christian and the answer is obviously yes.
Serial killers,mobsters and lying politicians are christians and JC doesnt give a damn about them,just forgives if they confess and repent.
Being a fag is no worse.

>>2778537
Different anon here and while what you're saying about repentance is true the post the other anon was replying to said "it doesn't matter" who you have sex with and that is simply false.

I think it's clear from the bible that God needs to see a mental health professional. I mean if a human kid started yelling at ants for doing ant things and squashing them on mass we'd eventually put them in an asylum. But the second some fifth-dimensional monstrosity does the same thing we want to worship it instead of contacting its local mental health facility in the Quadrax Infinitum

>>2778505
Thank you!

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>A thread full with seriously religious people on 4chan
>giving internet to the normies was a mistake

>>2778557
Mental health professionals = scam

>>2778566
fuck off xenu-fag, even mormons laugh at your shit

>>2778547

Depends on what you mean by "physical laws", since I'm expecting some conflation with something irrelevant to make a case for neurological determinism.

>>2778555

Well yeah. I mean, if you fornicate but truly repent it will be forgiven, but to do it repeatedly will make the sincerity of the repentance questionable. I mean it seems unfair but when you consider that sex isn't supposed to be a priority in life anyway, it's really not.

>>2778564
>A thread full with seriously religious people on 4chan
There's nothing weird about that, 4chan is supposed to be an 18+ site.

>>2778570
Appropriate response noted.

>>2778550
>serial killers and fags are the same thing in the bible
religion is the drug that keeps on giving

>>2778488
Nope
It's like being a pornstar or supermodel/model and a Christian at the same time. The lifestyles are incompatible with Christianity

>>2778557
>I mean if a human kid started yelling at ants for doing ant things and squashing them on mass we'd eventually put them in an asylum.

It's called pest control dumbass, humans do it all the time, or are you admitting that you let ants crawl all over the food in your kitchen and nest in your house, because "they're just doing ant things"?

>>2778574
In the good old days the internet was a bastion of atheism, but that was back then when you had to be smart to have internet. Nowadays every pleb can post, and so we have devout Christians on a board founded on hentai, traps and futanari.
This place really has gone to shit.

>>2778585
How is fashion modeling incompatible with Christianity? As long as the models aren't being lewd I don't see the issue.

>>2778596
*tips*

>>2778564
Being a Godless hedonist is the most normie thing you can do in 2017.

>>2778607
>>2778607
>>2778607
>>2778607

>>2778596
It sounds like you are trying to discourage people you don't agree with.

A lot of "devout Christians" are devout to a denomination / sect. It is about being devout to the teachings in the Bible taught by Jesus, not the teachings of a group that comes after Jesus.

Jesus > religion

If a divine entity you don't believe in or one of it's priests/followers performed a miracle before your very eyes would you convert?
Or write it off as a devil's trick?

>>2778600
Adrian Lima says she's a devout Roman Catholic, yet she puts her body on display for everyone to see. The whole point of a model is to be lewd. She has posed nude and has caused countless people to lust after her(which is a sin)

>>2778607
Why would anyone want to be a "normie" and why use that term

>>2778607

>>2778615
What if you witnessed the miracle instead of thinking someone else has to perform it for you

>>2778616
She contributes to the cause but the true cause is someone's choice to look at her. No one forces someone to do heroin, but a person decides to

>>2778616
Not all models pose nude or in immodest clothing.

It seems harsh to condemn the entire profession because of how some people behave.

>>2778594
there's a difference between killing ants because they're getting in your food and killing them because they don't spell out your name every weekend

>>2778621
Because that way you would attribute it to your own religion or make one up yourself so there is no dilemma.What kind of answer is that?

>>2778616

The point of modeling is to show off clothes, not to be lewd.

That some people react to it that way is their problem.

Same with posing nude.

>>2778635
Says who?
You?
I don't remember you getting elected God, bro.

>>2778636
No religion is necessary but the teachings are very necessary.

Reading what Jesus teaches shows you how to witness and be the miracle yourself. You don't need a priest of a certain religion to do it for you.

All the answer is saying is that any person is as capable of cultivating what Christ teaches. A priest performing a miracle is proof outside of yourself, when the living God is within you, you become part of God's plan, and you become the miracle, because you bring light to the world with the God who created you inside of you.

>>2778647
one is getting rid of an annoying pest, the other is someone with a brain disease that doesn't understand how ants work. ants it created.

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>>2778634
anon, not in her case

>>2775858
It brings true satisfaction. It reinforces the connection between man and creator is a way I don't think straight spirituality can achieve. It gives a goal to aspire to and a reason to live a good life. Even several Christians I know follow Christ just for the purpose of belonging.

>>2775858
A friend of mine asked me this question the other day. He asked, "Why do you believe the way your church does over any of the other churches or religions," to which I had to give a fairly lengthy explanation because really there's no way to wrap it up nicely without understanding the predicating frame of thought.

First, we must make a distinction between if there is a deity, higher order, or underlying principle or not over the material universe as we know it. If there isn't, there is no intrinsic value in behaving the way we do; sure, we can create a reason for our existence, but since that in itself has no reason for being, there's no reason to put it into practice. Therefore, all further questions are moot. If there is a deity, then we must assume it has some effect on the material universe, causing their presence to ripple outward somehow, which means certain things happen that we can perceive, causing events to occur. For example, if a deity places a thought in someone's head, or brings a minute event to fruition, even though the human element may not be able to notice the action directly, the effects are felt and noticed. This nuance gives rise to man attempting to define and shape the underlying cause despite not being capable of directly doing so.

That being said, religious formation becomes attempts to understand these effects and their meaning on us. Naturalistically, religions have rose, declined, and died off, but we can assume the ones who did not survive did so because the force that originally drove them was no longer interested in maintaining events to perpetuate it. This means we can safely say that dead religions without followers are not in the running for what contains the most truth of religions (Though they might've contained some truth at one point.).

>>2778672
With that, we now have the various surviving religions that attempt to prescribe order from the divine. We can posit that of these religions, the ones found useful to the creator will sustain themselves (though they might enter periods of contraction and expansion, the religion itself will remain in some form that will allow for its rise again) through the creator's aid. From here, things become unclear; we cannot tell which of the various religions contain said truth, only which ones are found lacking truth. And of those religions, we can only tell the lack from the death of the religion which is of no solace to the living congregation, who are never sure if what they follow is the right way.

I would say though, in a way, all religions are indeed conduits to the creator however, though some contain more of that divine spark than others. There are many shared tenets between religions, and following any of them will cause you to follow many of the rules of others as well. It's my line of thought that by the act of obeying these rules and following the fundamental line of thought behind that, that all humans will eventually be led to one single religion -- sort of like a singularity for religions, if you will. Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, even the ancestral religions of our predecessors, all lead towards that single point. However, this works on a massive timescale, far beyond a single generation, so rather learning the certainty of the truth of religion as a whole, we simply take small steps towards it throughout our lives. Every path leads to a single one, eventually, and each step you take down one leads you closer to the others. As these religions serve their purpose, they contract and die off, being absorbed into religions with more truth than the previous ones.

So in closing, I'm not sure my particular branch of religion is the correct one, but I have certainty that by following the path before me, I will arrive there.

>>2778665
>reeee women showing off their bodies
christfags lol

>>2778665
I thought we were discussing fashion modeling as a whole?

>>2778474

Focus on holy, just and righteous.

God is holy. Are "innocent" people "holy"? Can they survive being in God's presence? (No.)

God is just. Should people who are liars, thieves, murderers, blasphemers, unbelievers, sodomites, adulterers, fornicators, idolators, rapists, and child molesters not be punished?

Righteous: Should not the Judge of the universe be righteous?

You count on God's benevolence to do MORE than sacrifice his only begotten Son on a cross to die for you?

>>2778676
pride is a sin anon

>>2778664
Once again, nobody cares what you think about the universe, because you're not God. "I think it's silly" is a subjective statement that has no relevance to anyone but yourself. That's one of the reasons why an appeal to ridicule is a logical fallacy.

>>2778679
LARPest post ITT

>>2778479
As a rule of thumb, I take "what if" universes and hold them to this test:

Is Love the highest ideal in this universe we're contemplating?

Is the greatest act of Love possible in this universe we're contemplating?

Because in none of the following universes is Love the highest ideal:

No Universe
Universe with no evil
Universe with no agency

>>2778596
You know, it's possible for people to have been on this site without /b/ as their gateway. I came for the video game discussion, found myself loving the site as /tg/ opened up, and wound up finding all sorts of other boards that interested me as time went on, despite being a Christian from the very start.

Even back in the early years, you could start a Catholic thread and get all sorts of people bringing discussion before the inevitable guro spam by trolls.

>>2778679
>God: shit, everything's got fucked. don't even know how that happened. the fuck do i do now? I know, I'll incarnate myself as my own son (try figuring out that family tree, lol), piss everyone off, and then get nailed to a giant T.

>>2778543
Do you feed them?

Job 38-39
“Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
When they crouch in their dens,
Or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait?
Who provides food for the raven,
When its young ones cry to God,
And wander about for lack of food?

“Do you know the time when the wild mountain goats bear young?
Or can you mark when the deer gives birth?
Can you number the months that they fulfill?
Or do you know the time when they bear young?
They bow down,
They bring forth their young,
They deliver their offspring.
Their young ones are healthy,
They grow strong with grain;
They depart and do not return to them.

>>2778616
Anyone who describes themselves as "devout" does not understand Christianity, and is likely outside the fold.

>>2778690
Why is evil necessary for love to be the highest ideal?

If it's to serve as a contrast or foil then why not make something like lukewarm affection the contrast rather than evil?

>>2778691
I take pride in the fact that I've been here for ten years and never browsed /b/ in any meaningful fashion. I may be a cancerous newfag, but at least I'm not a /b/tard.

>>2778699
God knows the end from the beginning. He is never surprised, never disappointed, never in a hurry, and never needs a backup plan.

>>2778710
Who would need to lay down his life for others in the absence of evil?

>>2778710
Because then luke warm affection would be evil anon. It's like when misguided internet eugenicists advocate sterilizing everyone with a below average IQ in the hopes that some day they'll stop being born.

>>2778547
Donald Davidson says there isn't, but I disagree.

So is God considered retarded by other cosmic dimensional beings? Do they point at our universe and laugh?
God B:"lol, your people keep fucking shit up"
God C:"they haven't even gotten off their dumb planet"
God B:"haven't even gotten out of the solar system!"
God D:"Not to mention the entropy. I mean, you're own universe can't sustain itself. Mine is running smoothly on fifteen trillion years and fully colonized by immortal lizard people"
God B: "and yours is gonna shit itself in, what, a trillion years?"
God C: "How's it feel? To. be. a. bitch?"
God A: *autistic screeching*

>>2778725
That's a good point but again I'm being deliberately nitpicky so I would point out that that verse is in the context of an already fallen world. The question is why did the world have to fall in the first place.

One argument I've heard that I like is that it is a greater demonstration of God's glory to show that He has the power to redeem even that which is broken as opposed to never allowing anything to break.

>>2778733
To me that just sounds like semantics and changing the meanings of words. I still don't understand why evil is necessary for love to be the highest ideal.

>>2778762
It didn't have to fall.

It fell. And God knew it would fall, and made provisions for the fall before he made the universe.

>>2778753
They know his name, and rejoice, or tremble in fear.

There are none like God.

>>2778786
Fair enough, so let me rephrase it by saying why did God permit or allow the world to fall?

>>2778762
I think you misunderstand the overall claim. It's not that "in this universe, the greatest act of love is to lay down your life for another."

It's the greatest act of love possible, known even before the universe was made, and caused to happen in God's express will.

God created this universe so that he could perform the greatest act of love that there could be; while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

>>2778793
>>2778801

Of what use is unexpressed love?

>>2778793
Not that anon, but it isn't so much as God allowing the world to fall, but the people allowing their world to fall. The falling and rising is also up to the people who are responsible for maintaining the world.

>>2778801
>13:33:33
>while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

>>2778789
>only choices are blind worship or cowaring in fear
>not benign indifference by other cosmic fuckheads
>doesn't realize that there are others like God, just as powerful and utterly uncaring for the state of affairs of existence
lol brainwashed fag

>>2778722
Then why waste everyone's time on some pointless theatrics?

>>2778809
When the insults come in the understanding goes away

>satan: lol i troll u
>God: REEEE *smashes everything*

>>2778812
People choose to waste their own time

>>2778809
You're entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.

>>2778700
We are all destined to feed them some day. The world was a gift from God but Man is still part of that world and does not exist separate from it, except perhaps in a spiritual sense.

>>2778812
There's nothing pointless in anything God does.

>>2778822
You're quite mistaken.

Adam lost the world to the devil, and Jesus has not yet reclaimed it.

>>2778831
Adam never lost the world to the devil, because Adam and the devil do not own the world, but are in the world. God owns the world.

which means Jesus never had to reclaim it. Jesus doesn't claim the world as His kingdom but the hereafter

>>2778762
It's not semantics as all sin is Evil, even the mild sins. Leaving nothing but Good and mild sins in effect creates an even heavier burden for Man, as the guilt of his luke warm affection now weighs down on him as heavily as if he were the vilest of murderers.

>>2778801
I see what you mean but then that ultimately brings us to the conclusion that evil is necessary for love because God said so which I'm fine with accepting but I can't claim to understand why that is, I just accept it on God's authority and the origin of this discussion was about finding an answer that explains the problem of evil and defaulting to God's sovereignty isn't much of an explanation.

>>2778804
God certainly could have prevented it yet he chose not to so that is why I say he allowed it to happen.

>>2778753
>God C:"they haven't even gotten off their dumb planet"
Why do you think "getting off the planet" is some kind of goal of noteworthy importance to the universe?

Do you look at Michaelangelo's David and laugh because "lol it doesn't even toast bread!".

>>2778866
Why say God could have prevented it when the person could have also prevented it

>>2778859
If being lukewarmly affectionate is sinful then pick another option that isn't sinful to serve as the contrast for love.

Or is it that anything less than love is sinful?

>>2778879
Because God is omnipotent and therefore He could have prevented it if it was His will to do so.

>>2778874
>God B: lol, your little ants' Michelangelo doesn't even toast bread!

>>2778894
Yea but so could have the person prevented their situations

>>2778879
>person doesn't help stop someone getting stabbed "why didn't you do something!"
>God sits on his fat ass all day and doesn't help the multitude of people getting stabbed. "He works in mysterious ways"

>>2778841
When Jesus was tempted by the devil, the devil offered Jesus the entire world and all of the kingdoms in it.

Jesus did not dispute the offer. He rejected the temptation by citing scripture.

The people who run the world are in touch with Lucifer.

Jesus will reclaim the world by opening the seven sealed scroll.

I appreciate your heart, but your doctrine leaves much to be desired.

>>2778866
Evil is not necessary for Love; God is Love, and the Trinity love each other prior to evil existing.

The greatest act of love requires evil to exist.

>>2778914
That's not how it works.

For example, when you know God a little bit more than you don't you can learn to use the teachings to your advantage.

God can help you prevent negative situations, but meet God halfway at least.

>>2778886
Jesus gave us both options already. Hot or Cold.

Revelation 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

>>2778914
Man A stabs Man B, and you blame God.

>>2778920
Lucifer is a product of imagination and has no scriptural base. Jesus already reclaimed the world through His belief, but it is not visibly seen by people who believe that He hasn't already reclaimed it

You have as much control in the world as you give yourself. The devil promises Jesus to be a king in which Jesus already was. It is like offering someone a job they already have

>>2778907
Yes but Adam was not the only actor in the situation; it was within God's power to prevent the Fall yet he chose not to and this is why I say He allowed it to happen.

>>2778924
Forgive my sloppy phrasing; what I mean is that the conclusion to your reasoning is that the greatest act of love requires evil to exist because God said so and my point is that this doesn't help us understand why God wanted things this way. Ultimately this doesn't bother me very much because I don't pretend that humanity can understand God but it still is a point of tension from a philosophical standpoint.

>>2778929
What does that have to do with the problem of evil?

>>2778957
It is not about God could have prevented it as much as Adam could have.

When a friend decides to make a bad decision, it is your responsibility to warn him, not to stop him, because his decisions are his own. Basically you don't control what the other person does.

>>2778942
Lucifer is a poor translation of Helel ben Shachar, which is in the bible.

It should have been translated as Shining One, Son of the Dawn. i.e., an angel.

He is most definitely real.

>>2778977
It is real in the sense that people make it into something with their own perception, but is not actually found anywhere in scriptures.

>>2778957
That's not what I'm saying at all. If you do not think God dying to redeem mankind is the greatest act of love of all time, or not the greatest possible, put forward your idea of what would have been.

Greatest act of Love = Jesus dying for a fallen, depraved and wicked race called humanity.

If there are no humans, there is no greatest act of love.

If mankind has not fallen, there is no greatest act of love.

Because mankind fell and became evil, the greatest act of love is possible.

And because God expressly willed that He would perform the greatest act of love, He created the universe knowing full well the cost to him beforehand.

You can see this in the bible where he points out that if a man starts building a tower, and runs out of money half way through, he is mocked.

God knew what it would cost him to perform the greatest act of love possible, and paid it.

Now people have a choice to benefit from that, or be damned by it.

>>2778920
I'm no expert but I see it as a "weasels in Toad Hall" situation. The weasels are undeniably running riot and clearly claim the hall as their own, but it still belongs to Toad and he will inevitably return and drive them out.

>>2778966
Cold is evil.

>>2778984

He's in Genesis, Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 28, and throughout the Revelation.

>>2778984
Oh, and in Job.

>>2779002
None of those are Lucifer. The word is never used. They are associated with "lucifer" which is just a term that is made up and has many associated terms, never anything concrete.

Genesis is a snake. Isiah is a person, so is Ezekial compares attributes of a king to something malevolent. And revelations mentions Satan, never lucifer because it doesn't exist

>>2779004
Job also mentions satan, never lucifer, because Lucifer is a made up term that people use to describe what they think Lucifer is, but in reality, there is no mention of a being a Lucifer anywhere, but certain stories are associated with what people believe that it is

>>2779016
I guess nobody told you.

Lucifer is a latin word.

The bible was not written in latin.

When the bible was translated into latin by Jerome, he made a horrific translation of "Shining One, Son of the Dawn" (angel) to "Light Bearer" or "Light Bringer".

If you search the KJV, Lucifer is indeed in that version as well.

As he is your spiritual father, you should pay him the respect of knowing he exists as you lie and carry out his work.

>>2779019

satan = HaSatan = the Adversary

satan = lucifer = great dragon = serpent = devil

Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Clearly a fallen angel.

>>2779019
>>2779022

>>2775872
>>2775899
>>2775930
>>2775933
Orthodox music really has something to it you won't find anywhere else
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1BfwrBbbEs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFZnsUkb_1k

>>2779019
Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

>>2779022
It is a Latin word that is not used in the organic bible. That is why it is not relevant to the scriptures.

It is not in the Hebrew or Greek, therfore a Latin term is as useless as the translation "jesus" when there is not a J in hebrew or greek name of "jesus"

Lucifer is not existing in the Bible, it is a Latin mistranslations which is not a concrete base

>>2779041
>>2779036
>>2779028
>>2779022
>>2779002
>>2779004

>>2778972
I don't think that is analogous because I'm not omnipotent so I can't exert power over my friend in the way God could have over Adam. If you say this was out of respect for Adam's free will that's fine but God is still allowing Adam to sin out of respect for his free will.

>>2778992
The point is that God could have chosen something else to be the greatest act of love, perhaps granting ever increasing joy or something it doesn't really matter because God is almighty so He could make it whatever He wanted. However what He did want was for it to be laying down one's life for another and thus all creation including the Fall becomes an opportunity for Him to perform this great love. My question is why God chose this specific action, laying down one's life for another, as the greatest act of love when He could have made it something else that wouldn't require evil?

>>2779028
Lucifer is never used as a word at all in Greek or hebrew. Lucifer is an association. People believe it is venus, some believe it is satan, some believe it's jesus, some believe in Lucifer and no jesus, there is no concrete "lucifer" anywhere.

Therefore the mistranslation has screwed with the perceptions of Christians and non Christian

>>2779041
>It is a Latin word that is not used in the organic bible.

Which is why I gave you the Hebrew above.

Do you read other people's posts or are we all just wasting our time responding to you?

>>2779036
It is a Latin mistranslation, not organic to the Hebrew text

>>2779048
>The point is that God could have chosen something else to be the greatest act of love

No, he could not.

You need to ground yourself in reality quite a bit more than you are if you ever want to understand God.

>>2779050
>>2779046

>>2779055
Which is what I posted above. >>2779046

>>2779048
That is then Adams fault for sinning not God's for not preventing Adam even though God warned Adam

>>2779054
I seen that. The Hebrew is the original name, it doesn't need to be translated into a whole completely different word.

Like how is a name mistranslated from Helel Ben Shahar to "lucifer"? No phonetics back this up

>>2779062
You didn't have to

>>2779066
>>2779046

>>2779068
>>2779073

>>2779059
Ah it seems we've arrived at Euthyphro's dilemma with you taking the first horn and I taking the second:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

It's always strange to me when I hear a fellow believer argue that God couldn't do something because I thought that is what omnipotence is all about.

Regardless, I've enjoyed our discussion and appreciate your frankness. Goodbye and God bless you.

>>2779064
I never meant to imply that God was at fault for allowing Adam to sin only that I don't understand it. I've enjoyed our discussion as well but I have to go now. Goodbye and God bless.

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>>2775858
Man I can give multiple reasons. But for the sake of text I'lll try to keep it short.

But a fundamental reason why I believe is because I can see glimpses of the truth in the foundation of the message in a book like the Bible. Even with all the fantastic elements of angels and visions, the message underneath all those fantastic elements, as I've tested it, are more solid than anything I've ever learned prior.

An example is that it blatantly points out how a concept like evil acts like a virus, like an infection within the engineering of thought. I've seen this in my own life, my anger, my greed, my lust for revenge at times. My selfish perspective that can be heavily critical of others if not totally combative with fantasies of violent revenge or violent justices or with just harsh critical words that do no more than reinforce my enemies position as my enemy. I can see how this can gain momentum at become nation-wide if not world wide ideologues and how these ideologues can be used for exploitation and taking advantage of innocent people.

I see God, nature, the entire momentum of life not hesitating to cut off a limb if it means saving the whole. The earth destroys in order to rebuild. Evil as a virus within thought, if perpetuated without making adjustments to turn from it, I don't see God as tolerating it. I don't see nature itself tolerating poisons as it will go straight to the source of the virus to kill it off. "Evil" I don't think gets any different treatment. It's path leads to death from multiple angles, the offense it creates comes from numerous directions, multiplying malicious enemies.

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>>2779651
(Continued)

At the same time, as I searched myself, I saw my own evil, I saw that it all stemmed from a confusion, a standing in darkness. Unaware of why I was doing what I was doing. I saw that I had a faulty beliefs of lack, fear, which lead to confusion and irrational responses of anger, greed, deceptiveness, exploitation's, all because the world, as it is written, is filled with evil....it baits man to act like a vicious primitive, disguised as something good and eloquent.

I saw God's patient mercy with me as I attempted to reverse engineer my motives. I saw my pride contributing to a resistance that I was somehow wrong from the beginning. My pride even had me curse God for making me like this, when it was my own math that lead to my conclusions the whole time.

His Truth...The only truth, the un-faulty engineering perspective that exposes ALL motives...The truth, that's a fundamental reason why I believe.

>>2779121
It's equally strange to me to hear someone say "God could have done this better".

As to Euthyphro, Jesus' harshest criticisms were for the pious.

>>2779653
I love how God reaches everybody right where they are, when they reach out to Him. One of the most amazing things to me is to watch Jesus answer the question that was not asked of him, yet answering the question fully.

>>2778269
>I have read other religious texts

Notice how I said engage? You only practiced and engaged with the community of one.You didnt just read the bible.

Did you join a Tao Te Ching Study group? or join with local taoists?

Did you engage with other religions?

>various religions have had on global history Christianity stands out as exceptional.

Marxism has had an exceptional impact on history but that doesnt make it a correct philosophy. Likewise by this reasoning prior to the 1500s Islam would be the religion of choice.

>As I mentioned in the story my questions about the nature morality and whether it was relativistic or objective would probably be one of the more "intellectual" reasons for why I believe.

Reread it, unless you story was incorrect you ditched relativism because it did not provide comfort and sought out an objective one that would and cycled through them until you found a comfy one - there is nothing intellectual about this - - indeed even Christianity being true for you was contingent on God meeting your subjective definition of justice.

Conversion does not have to be an intellectual process but lie and claim your is when it isnt - indeed your story is the rejection of intellectual reasons and concerns like bias and skepticism.

>>2778269
Not that poster but the whole antisemitic part is referring to converts like you, not you specifically.

"my reason for that is it seems to be evidence for its truth and validity"

So the fact that Scientology made close to 5 billion dollars US in a 50 year span is proof of theatans and Dianetics being more valid than other religions?

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>>2779676
Yeah, it's not even easy. So many factors come into play to resist humility and fairness as there is that hidden motive and desire to be impervious for the sake of a self image. Which is pride.

So it's no easy task to calm down and be humble, especially in a world like right now, where everyone can log into a social media outlet and play "I know everything, you're wrong, watch me as I virtue signal all day long"...

Truly, one of the hardest things to do in life is just be honest...are you bullshiting? Are you virtue signalling? Are secretly filled with hate and judgement? Or are you filled with patience, forgiveness, and honesty?

It's not easy to avoid the temptations of stimulating pride.

>>2779706
I'm not saying that historical impact is the only reason I became a Christian but that it was one of the factors.

I experienced "discomfort" with moral relativism because it seemed intellectually dishonest to act like all perspectives are equally valid. Granted I don't think that any conversion is a purely intellectual process but I think you're overstating your case by saying there is "nothing intellectual" about it.

>>2779718
Like I said above, historical impact is only one factor evaluating a belief system.

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I doubt that after all of your replies that I could offer anything you haven't heard yet. However if no one has told you to read Thomas Aquinas, I would like to correct that. If you're honest about understanding anyone's belief in God, knowing and understanding Aquinas' arguments for God's existence should be your first stop. There are two works I can suggest, the Summa Theologica and the Summa Contra Gentiles. The Summa Theologica is more "insiders speak"; it's more of a catechism, yet would still be useful. Contra Gentiles was more philosophical; it was his attempt at converting Muslims. When it came to the Jewish people. he believed converting them was a matter of proving that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies of the prophets. But where the Jews had the OT, Muslims, by virtue of their philosophers, had reason. So either are a good place to start.
As for myself, I have recently become Byzantine Catholic. To be honest, I'm not positive I can offer an answer that you might accept as satisfying. I'll say that you don't just know truth, but you can experience truth. You can touch an oven and experience the truth of it's heat. You can walk into a storm and experience the truth of wet rain. I believe I have experienced truth and have found it in Catholicism.

>>2779862
Was it intellectually honest to avoid the bulk of my post about you engaging in other religions?

>moral relativism because it seemed intellectually dishonest to act like all perspectives are equally valid

Firstly, for what reason is it dishonest Secondly, why do you assume that there being no perfect universal answer = all answers are equally true?


> I think you're overstating your case by saying there is "nothing intellectual" about it.

I meant there was nothing intellectual about the reasons you stated in your post, not that conversion as a whole cant be intellectual.

>>2779862
>Like I said above, historical impact is only one factor evaluating a belief system.
So what evidence would you need before you would reject christianity as the truth?

>>2779928
Is it intellectually honest to say studying a religious text is not engaging with it? When you start changing definitions it makes me not want to address your points because it turns what should be a discussion into a game of "gotcha!"

I think it's dishonest to act like all perspectives are equal for the same reason our legal system does not treat a layman's testimony the same as an expert's.

>>2779931
The corpse of Jesus of Nazareth.

>>2780013
>Is it intellectually honest to say studying a religious text is not engaging with it?

Take a look at my original comment to you, I did not change any definitions

"No engagement with other religious texts and theologians and practice"

>This isnt a game of "gotcha" at worst I made the mistake of bundling these together instead of listing them.

So to clarify if no gotchas or different definitions

"Did you join any study groups for the other religious texts you read and did you attened their services and preform their practices"

>for the same reason our legal system does not treat a layman's testimony the same as an expert's

Is that an apt comparison though? Can courts bring an expert witness on morality?

It seems like you are conflating moral relativism with epistemological relativism (that there can be no universal truth at all)

>>2780013
>The corpse of Jesus of Nazareth.

So the Angel Gabriel coming down to tell you that Muhammad is the last prophet of God, or Scientologists unlocking perfect memory and super powers through auditing would have no effect? No intellectual argument regarding the existence of no or another God?

On a side note, what evidence would you need to see before you would accept a corpse as being the one of Jesus?

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>>2780136
forgot my pic

>>2778218
If I write a story about you not being a disappointment to your father, it doesn't automatically follow that you are that way in reality.

>>2780136
No I did not attend groups or services for other religions for a number of reasons. As far as Taoism is concerned, nothing in Tao Te Ching suggests that corporate worship is necessary and likewise Buddhism also places the emphasis on individual spiritual development. Although they have temples, there is no analogue to "church" in the sense of an expected regular meeting of believers in either of these two faiths so it didn't seem like an essential component to understanding them, not that I claim to be an expert on either but only that it didn't seem necessary to get a sense of what they are about. I'm sure if I had been truly convicted by what I read I would I would have sought out a community but I wasn't so I moved on. Islam would be closest to Christianity in promoting group worship but from what I read in the Koran and about Mohammad's life coupled with the state of the Islamic world I wasn't interested in investigating that faith further. If this makes me a bigot then so be it but I did not detect anything suggesting that Mohammad was anything other than a talented warlord.

I do think it is an apt comparison and I do think you can have an expert moral witness. To use purely secular examples, I would say the moral opinions of a professional judge are more valid than those of a criminal. For simplicity's sake I'm equating legal behavior with moral behavior on the assumption that a baseline for moral behavior is that it's legal. I understand that this is not always the case such as when the law is immoral but again I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible.

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>>2780153
It is ultimately a matter of faith but I would say intellectual arguments can be made through comparing the ethical systems promoted by various religions and debating which is most harmonious with reality.

As far as authenticating the Corpus Christi, if they discovered a tomb outside Jerusalem dating from the early 1st century inscribed with "Jesus of Nazareth" containing the remains of a Palestinian man in his early 30's with skeletal damage consistent with Roman crucifixion practices it would be very difficult to remain a Christian to say the least.

>>2778596
Nice fedora

>>2780405
>I did not attend groups or services for other religions for a number of reasons. As far as Taoism is concerned, nothing in Tao Te Ching suggests that corporate worship is necessary

You didnt think spending time with people who based their lives around its teachings would help you understand it and the greater faith around it?

> Buddhism also places the emphasis on individual spiritual development.

The three refuges - the teaching that follows from the 4 noble truths jewels/refuges literally state that community is there along with the buddha and the teachings in importance.

>'m sure if I had been truly convicted by what I read I would I would have sought out a community but I wasn't so I moved on.

What did you read out of curiosity and did you follow their medative practices?

>what I read in the Koran and about Mohammad's life coupled with the state of the Islamic world I wasn't interested in investigating that faith further

Dont you see the bias regarding truth and spiritual hedonism here? The searching for a truth that aligns with subjective values and then declaring it to be the objective one.

>Mohammad was anything other than a talented warlord.

Because prophets have to be like Jesus and not like OT figures right?

>I do think you can have an expert moral witness

Well courts do not use them, judges simply interpret the law according to the conditions of legal documents created by parliaments, precedent and conventions. They can only make decisions within those confines and are not called upon in trials to give proof or morality or immorality, if there is a minimum sentance for an act and a party commits that act unless the Judges deceives the court they are bound to commit htem to that sentance.

Likewise judges arent called into give moral witness.

p1.
> I would say the moral opinions of a professional judge are more valid than those of a criminal.

>>2780706
P.2
> would say the moral opinions of a professional judge are more valid than those of a criminal

You aren't giving a reason here you are just restating your point from before.

To break down your argument from you posts

>1. Why is moral subjectivism dishonest

Why is it dishonest?

>2. For the same reason a legal system doesnt treat a lay testimony as equal to an expert wittiness

Why is this an apt comparison how could a court bring an expert witness on morality?

3.They could and it is apt because I think a judges opinion is worth more than a criminals

You see you arent really demonstrating how it is dishonest or why we should accept the reasoning of the legal system as valid for morality.

>I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible.

Try being complex then, perhaps that will make things clearer


Also what are your views on the arguments in >>2780167 re morality?

>>2780569
So that means not even a messenger from God himself could change your mind?

> debating which is most harmonious with reality.
What do you mean by this?

> it would be very difficult to remain a Christian to say the least.

But you would still be a christian?

>>2780706
I'm sure if I spent time around them it would have given me a greater understanding but my point is that I had no desire to pursue them further based on my initial investigation.

Gosh off the top of my head the books I remember were Tao Te Ching, The Tao of Pooh, The Tibetan Book of the Dead, Siddartha, Autobiography of a Yogi, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and also random stuff online. I know this is a very limited selection and contains mostly contemporary authors but my interest in Christianity was inspired by more contemporary writers as well. C.S. Lewis and Tolkien of course and then Dostoevsky as I mentioned in the story so I hope you won't be dismissive of me because I didn't scour the ancient texts or whatever. And yes I did practice meditation which I still think can be useful but prayer is ultimately more important.

Of course I have biases; I never claimed to be objective. Part of what drew me to God in the first place was the realization that I'm just an idiot like everyone else. The whole nature of faith is to subjectively choose to believe something is objective true and I think people who see themselves as neutral or unbiased are delusional.

I don't recall the prophets ever beheading anyone and warfare was the king's domain anyway. Either way my own biases lead me to believe that a godly man would look more like Jesus than Mohammad.

I never said courts used them but that doesn't mean that the judge doesn't have more moral authority than the criminal. For example, imagine you had to pick one to raise your children.

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>>2780737
Anyone who says Jesus is not LORD cannot be a messenger from God.

I mean harmonious like the way music has harmony; you can feel when a note is off key.

I don't know what I would do honestly.

>>2780788
>I mentioned in the story so I hope you won't be dismissive of me because I didn't scour the ancient texts or whatever.

Its kind of hard not to when you havent read any of the huge amounts of works made by the Buddha himself. Kind of like you would be dismissive of me if I rejected Christianity based on Chesterson and Lewis and did actually read the bible.

>And yes I did practice meditation which I still think can be useful but prayer is ultimately more important.

Thats good to hear.

>Of course I have biases; I never claimed to be objective.

Then why not own them instead and deal with the consequences of the epistemological inabilities of humanity?

> don't recall the prophets ever beheading anyone and warfare was the king's domain anyway

King Solomon had 1000 wives and Joeseph manipulated markets to enslave people from all across Egypt not to mention the buisness with Samuel and the genocide of the Cannanites.

>I never said courts used them but that doesn't mean that the judge doesn't have more moral authority than the criminal

Again you keep on stating your view without actually substantiating it, but since this analogy is tying everying in knots why not simple and without analogy explain why moral relativism is dishonest or false, perhaps using the arguments in >>2780167 as a starting point.

>For example, imagine you had to pick one to raise your children.

[spoiler]So you would rather Pilate than Paul raise your children -Just meming here because I dont think its productive to focus on this broken analogy [/spoiler]

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>>2780803
Senpai answers like this annoy me, as someone searching for the truth and getting past all the atheist dogma my job is 10x as harder by people who whilst well meaning are ultimately sharks. You talk about the use of reason, objectivity and proofs in your testimony but don't practice or use them beyond trying to convert people.

>>2780891
I don't think that's analogous because first off we don't have any books written by Buddha and secondly there is no single authoritative text in Buddhism like there is in Christianity. I assumed you knew that. . .

I do own by biases which is why I choose to believe; my faith is an expression of my biases.

None of those Old Testament figures you listed were warriors like Mohammad was so again I don't see the comparison.

Finally, the nature of faith is that it cannot be proven so I cannot prove to you that moral relativism is false. All I can do is try to get you to see that people generally behave as though moral laws exist even if they cannot be proven.

>>2780949
> people generally behave as though moral laws exist
Well, the descriptive objective moral laws of that kind have little common with biblical ones.

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>>2780905
Human beings are fundamentally irrational creatures and frankly I'm surprised that that this isn't obvious to you.

I use reason every day and it's a useful tool but I ultimately agree with Martin Luther when he said that "reason is a whore" because clever people can use it perversely.

Why do you think attorneys get paid the big bucks?

>>2780949
>
I don't think that's analogous because first off we don't have any books written by Buddha and secondly there is no single authoritative text in Buddhism like there is in Christianity. I assumed you knew that. . .

They are his extensive spoken words and sermons - a huge difference from - the words written by modern buddhists. Its valid.

>I do own by biases which is why I choose to believe; my faith is an expression of my biases.

Unless you say that Christ is the subjective Truth then isnt its hiding from them,

>None of those Old Testament figures you listed were warriors like Mohammad was so again I don't see the comparison.

Sam was, and the point was illustrating how people can be prophets even though they do rather bad things.

>I cannot prove to you that moral relativism is false. All I can do is try to get you to see that people generally behave as though moral laws exist even if they cannot be proven.

You know that you can still have moral order in a moral relativist framework right? Having laws which are objective realtive to the subjective context/framework - like the rules of a game.

>>2780962
Loving your neighbor as yourself still holds up pretty good.

>>2780989
> Loving your neighbor as yourself
I don't think that many people follow that in practice.

>>2780976
I know that people are not perfectly rational to a single standard, its just that I still get rustled by people who act two faced with it and try and deceive others. If that conversion story was more like the one taking place in that other conversation I wouldnt have a problem with it.

Have you read David Copperfield, its like the person who made that story is a relative of Uriah Heep

>>2780988
There is no difference because Buddha didn't see himself as unique in the way Jesus did; Buddha saw himself as just pointing the way whereas Jesus claimed that he IS the way. So there's nothing particularly special about Buddha other than that he came earlier than the newer authors.

I'm entitled to express what I believe to be true and that isn't hiding my biases.

When did Samuel personally wage war? Telling other people to kill is not the same as killing them yourself.

I don't think a moral relativist framework is persuasive because it ultimately comes down to what people can get away with since just like in games, breaking the rules only matters if you get caught. I realize this is an expression of my personal biases, but I think someone who cheats at games has broken a "meta-rule" so to speak and a moral relativist framework cannot account for this.

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>>2781000
If you think I'm trying to deceive you, you're mistaken. I adopt a rationalist approach while evangelizing because I understand that it is more persuasive to materialists which is most people these days unfortunately.

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>>2781052
> I adopt a rationalist approach while evangelizing because I understand that it is more persuasive to materialists which is most people these days unfortunately.

You are using a mode of reasoning that isnt convincing to yourself or other Christians whilst pretending it is to trick others - its textbook deception. Its only a few steps away from those concern trolls who were aboslutley toxic to mainstream protestantism.

You can make really good arguments against atheism and materialism without having to resort to deception or mental slight of hand.

Why do continue down this path when there is such a better one?

>>2776932
>Why would God make lustful people if unrepentant lust can send you to Hell?

There are, in fact, stupid questions.

>>2781075
>the grizzled

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>>2781075
No it is convincing to myself but reason can only take you to a point, and then faith comes in. My goal is to try and bring a materialist as close to that point as possible in hopes that they will then decide to take the "leap of faith." Ultimately it's not up to me to save people but I make these arguments because when I heard them as I was first exploring my faith they were helpful to me so I hope they will be so to others.

>>2775913
I am not sure if this was supposed to be compelling...but it wasn't. And this is coming from someone that has walked a similar path...perhaps there are better ways to word it.

>>2781149
OP here, please make an attempt at explaining your journey. Would love to hear it

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>>2781101
>but I make these arguments because when I heard them as I was first exploring my faith

So have drugs, It does not mean its a good or a helpful path.

>My goal is to try and bring a materialist as close to that point as possible in hopes that they will then decide to take the "leap of faith.

Glossing over the posts youve made in this thread and your story unless by materialist you mean consumerist you simply don't unless you have a different story in mind.

Reading what you have posted I can see you trying to challenge the role of reason but you just end up making it seem as though a faulty reason is behind your belief.

>they were helpful to me so I hope they will be so to others.

I can say they are doing the opposite, similar to the other anons who have responded to that story. Heck even as I was typing this another post showing the lack of help it has poped up.

I dont get why you would want to do this givenhow much fantastic evidence and arguments there are for disproving materialism if your goal is to help people

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>>2781204
If you don't find my testimony persuasive that is your prerogative but I will continue to preach the Gospel.

However no more tonight because I'm sleepy.

Goodnight anon, I will be praying for you.

>>2781291
Would you preach your testimony even if it meant driving others away from christ?

I have nothing against religious folks who go think a "leap of faith" is required, but don't say your religion is logically demonstrable while standing closer than 12451 miles of me.