Who were the Etruscans?

Anatolians or Aegeans of some variety who migrated westward and merged with the native Villanovan culture to create a powerful collection of city states.

hellenized protocelts

>>2768449
dark skinned Italians

>>2768449
Based non-Indo-Europeans

>>2768449
tower builders as opposed to mudhut builders

>>2768449
Neolithic farmers

>>2768470
It's the otehr way around

>>2768473
Oh shit the nordcentric idiot is here.

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>>2768489
those were Sardinians

>>2768489
Dont forget they were the builders of the Cloaca maximus.

>>2768542
>Villanovans of some variety who migrated eastward and merged with the native Anatolian or Aegean cultures to create a powerful collection of city states.
Yeah nah.

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>>2768449
>>2768484
Looks like they were related to the pre-Celtic peoples of Switzerland and Austria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrsenian_languages

>>2768564
he's not really wrong desu

Etruscans were Pelasgians/Minoans who put off Hellenization for another 500 years.

>>2768581
>language same as race
>this old meme.

>>2768952
Lel you dumb

>>2768952
This.

>>2768952
>>2768967
Unless you have a better explanation of why they share the same language you have no argument.

>>2768603
Nigga the Pyrgi tablets unearthed in italy had pheonecian and Etruscan writing, they had cultural ties to the east because they were from the east.

>>2768970
>Jamaicans speak English so they are racially Anglo-Saxon

etRUScans

Gee, I wonder why they share so much vocabulary with the proto-Slavic language.

>>2768970
What the fuck? I speak english, I share that language with people from England but I neither live in England and I am not white, but according to you I am some fucking Nigel from Newcastle...

It is cultural expansion through trade and maybe religion, no one can know for certain why certain things in history happened its all cobbled together hypothesis, making grand claims on the basis of maps that is literally passed through a thousand people's interpretation doesnt make a solid argument, its more of an educated assumption, which is what most of history is.

You are simply saying that there is no other way for a group of languages semi or fully related to exist without it being spoken by the people with the exact same genetic makeup which is patently false.

>>2768982
>>2768993
>map literally shows the two peoples are within 100 miles of one another
>waaa, it's the Atlantic Ocean!!!111!!!

>>2768988
Actually a bunch of Russians have proposed a theory that the Etruscan language is cognate with ancient Daghestani.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110810021157/http://www.nostratic.ru/books/(329)EGRWND.pdf

>>2769000
China and India share a border, they have shared it for thousands of years, yet they arent the same people, yet there are buddhist chinese who dont look indian, there are buddhist chinese who wrote in prakrit and chant in Sanskrit who arent indian.

Also where the fuck did Atlantic ocean come from? What the fuck are you even trying to argue there?

>>2768970
Yes, Etruscans settled Lemnos, end of the debate.

>>2768976
The etruscans were villanovans as well, and vellanovans are descended from the urnfield culture - which is celtic.

>>2769013
>China and India share a border, they have shared it for thousands of years, yet they arent the same people
probably because that border is giant fucking mountains

>>2768976
This is retarded, Phoenician inscriptions are found all they way west in Sardinia and even in Iberia, Phoenicians had multiple colonies and trading posts in Sardinia, so of course they traded with the Etruscans, Sardo/Phoenician merchants were just like half a day of distance by ship from the coasts of Etruria.

>>2769029
*Celto/Italic

>>2769013
China and India have not shared a border for thousands of years. You are literally arguing that peoples who live within 100 miles of one another across easy terrain somehow aren't related. So I guess you think native americans don't exist because humans are completely immobile.

>>2769015
I find your conclusion acceptable.

>>2769033
There are giant fucking mountains in the alps as well, Switzerland is surrounded by giant fucking mountains. Chinese often came into india, and indians to china, the mountains had passes and much cultural diffusion passed through on both sides from creation of silk from china to refining sugar from india.

>>2769049
sure of course, as always chances are that they were local natives who adopted that strain of proto-celtic culture. I doubt they were pure urnfield.

>>2769052
>China and India have not shared a border for thousands of years
Well that is absolutely crap.
>You are literally arguing that peoples who live within 100 miles of one another across easy terrain somehow aren't related.
All humans are related one way or another, but their familial and clan groups do not necessarily have to reflect the clan groups from say across a river though they identify with a common origin or faith.
>So I guess you think native americans don't exist because humans are completely immobile.
That is neither here nor there. If you want to use that as your conclusion that is your choice, however stupid you make it sound.

>I find your conclusion acceptable.
So when exactly did the Etruscans settle Lemnos?

>>2769049
Oh right, in that way I do agree
>>2769064
This.

>>2769053
>There are giant fucking mountains in the alps as well
the language family in that map is in northern italy, right next to the etruscans
aka not separated by giant fucking mountains
>Chinese often came into india, and indians to china
"""often"""
they had contact but there was no movements of people or goods in large amounts, owing to the giant fucking mountains, so fucking obviously they didn't racially mix or largely culturally mix (buddhism was the only big cultural transfer)

>>2768449
BLACK KANGZ

>>2769066
Ok, so you know neither the history nor geography of India or China, that's fine. It's still weird to talk like you do. You seem to have no sense of scale, magnitude or relationship. You seem to think that Newcastle and London developed English independently and that the peoples are completely different.

>>2769077
>they had contact but there was no movements of people or goods in large amounts,
Well that is a false statement because they did frequently trade so there were people moving between the two nations, infact according to you Kumarajiva an ancient scholar of buddhism, born of a chinese mother and indian father did not exist at all because mountains! Nor did Bodhidharma, an indian prince travel to china and found wushu because mountains!

>>2769097
But you arent actually providing anything to back your claims, you are just attacking me and stating shit like it is the absolute end all to discussion. I think you hardly know what you are talking about and are simply projecting your ignorance of the subject onto me.

I am ok with being proven wrong, its just that you still havent done that, you are simply attacking without any sense, please try to make sense and provide sources for the claims.

>>2769106
>in large amounts

>>2769123
Large enough, and please prove me wrong. Not through your assumption because you are a nobody, provide actual proof.

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>>2769118
Oh, would you look at that, a map depicting of China 1,000 years ago. Huh, no borders with India. It's almost like the modern borders have only lasted a few centuries. It's almost like you have no knowedge of China at all.

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And here's a map depicting India 1,000 years ago. Huh, no borders with China. It's almost like you have no knowledge of India at all.

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>>2768449

>Nuragic Daggers and stilettos, baskets, buttons, bronze ship models are spread in the Villanova communities together with the characteristic askoids pitchers; The considerable presence of local forms of production with respect to originals, with particular reference to the jugs, seems to indicate the stable presence of Sardinian groups in the Tyrrhenian region, and in the same direction leads the recognition of nuragic influences in the funeral architecture of Populonia, and, most certainly, the recent emergence of nuragic ceramics in a villanovian inhabited context in the very town of Populonia

Really stimulates your brain cells

>>2769128
>Large enough
by what metric, exactly? because, really, very few people crossed the giant fucking mountains
india was part of the oceanic silk road and connected to the land one, which made them very wealthy, but that was largely intermediaries trading with intermediaries rather than a lot of direct cultural contact
the cultural contact was through small groups of monks, scholars, and others travelling between the countries, not enough to permit notable interbreeding
>and please prove me wrong
okay, how about that it's objectively faster, cheaper, and easier to move goods across ocean than across land, and thats with GOOD terrain. you really think they could transfer massive amounts of goods across the himalayas?

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>>2769138
I dont see the himalayas there. You clearly said there was a lack of contact with china due to the mountains. Also how does your argument explain a 12-13th century tamil funded temple https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiyuan_Temple_(Quanzhou), there was a sizeable amount of south indian traders and merchants in china because of communities of traders funded and built the shiva temple there.

Also Pic related, there is a border shared in the north of Kashmir, and that is some 200 years before the Song dynasty map you have represented. Tang fought and lost to the arab expansion in transoxiana which is basically bordering pakistan afghanistan and india.

>>2769194
>>2769191
>>2769138
Why the fuck are you retards arguing about Ind*a and Ch*na, go make your own thread for fuck's sake.

>>2769203
because this is 4chan where threads get derailed very easily
enjoy your stay

>>2769191 read >>2769194
>>2769153
Because the borders kept changing after the turkic, mongolian and islamic invasions and led to the collapse of the old order of north indian kingdoms and the fall of buddhism. You cant just post a map during the era of Delhi Sultanate and claim that india was always as such, the political, cultural and economic dynamics changed for a large amount of time and you are literally nitpicking points of history and applying it as a whole which is exactly the type of idiocy done by someone who has no idea of what he is talking about.

>>2769203
I actually don't know, I wanted to talk about Etruscans but the other guy started attacking me. He must be having a bad day, thats ok though, none of this really matters.

>>2769212
i read your post, and none of it refutes anything, especially the existence of a small trading community that funded a temple which i already mentioned
because, going back to the original argument about tyrsenian languages and the etruscans, the chinese and indians were separated by DIFFICULT ENOUGH terrain that people did not CROSS OVER AND INTERBREED OR REPLACE THE NATIVES IN LARGE AMOUNTS, which is not applicable to the etruscan situation
>You cant just post a map during the era of Delhi Sultanate and claim that india was always as such, the political, cultural and economic dynamics changed for a large amount of time and you are literally nitpicking points of history and applying it as a whole which is exactly the type of idiocy done by someone who has no idea of what he is talking about.
then why are you doing the exact same thing arguing for the contact between indians and chinese, faggot?

>>2769194
I never said anything about mountains. You alleged "China and India share a border, they have shared it for thousands of years" which is plainly false. You didn't even think the Etruscans were even able to migrate 100 miles but now you bring up trading missions when it suits your nonsense. And now you show the Tang Dynasty, which only had a border in the far west for a few scant decades, not "thousands of years." Your argument only makes sense to you because you fail to understand the definitons of "India", "China", "year" and "border."

>>2769267
>then why are you doing the exact same thing arguing for the contact between indians and chinese, faggot?
Because you started it and so I put in Tang Map to show how easily I can reinforce my point by being anachronistic.

Also stop being so mad, calm down man, we are talking about dead men and the lines they have drawn, no need to project your homosexuality on others.

>>2769300
>Because you started it and so I put in Tang Map to show how easily I can reinforce my point by being anachronistic.
actually, your whole point has been anachronistic from the start, completely unrelated to that map

>>2769318
So has yours, so we are both wrong. Thus the argument is irrelevant.

>>2769323
no, you were wrong, i was right
sorry you have to find out like this, but you can always commit suicide if the shame is too much to bear

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>>2769337
>no, you were wrong, i was right
Sure you were, you should go let the local newspaper know.
>sorry you have to find out like this, but you can always commit suicide if the shame is too much to bear
Ahahahaha Is that what you do in your family?

They're original Europeans who independently developed their civilisation.

Any other answer is false and wewuzism

>>2769354
somebody sure sounds mad that they lost

>>2769400
Lost what? If you are in 4chan you have already lost bud. lurkmoar.

>>2769203
All I was saying is that the Etruscans might have been related to other peoples in the Tyrsenian language group. >>2768581

Then gaggle of faggots jumped on it and started bullshit
>>2768952
>>2768982
>>2768993
about English, as if the two were in any way, shape or form related. It spiralled from there.

>>2769419
>Lost what?
respect from other anonymous posters
which is obviously all that matters

>>2769431
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4AtBBVZ73U

You are alright!

>>2769426
I apologize for the derailment for my part.

So Dionysius of Halicarnassus postulated that them may have been from lydians from Anatolia, backed by Herodotus and Strabo. This is an intereseting article on that regard
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/health/03iht-snetrus.1.5127788.html

Plus who else thinks that Roman's were just vagabond and rebel Etruscans who ran away from the League and founded their own city?

>>2769495
The can't be Lydians because Lydians spoke an Indoeuropean language of the Anatolian branch, while Etruscans spoke a non Indoeuropean language.

Also Lydian civilization developed in parallel with the Etruscan one, it didn't precede it.

>>2769551
Interesting, so why is there the claim of genetic similarity between the cattle raised in central italy and those found in Anatolia used as a point of contention to prove that there was a migratory period where Anatolian settlers did infact arrive in the italian peninsula? Also if not lydians who else would be a good candidate for the title of Etruscan ancestors?

>>2769495
>Plus who else thinks that Roman's were just vagabond and rebel Etruscans who ran away from the League and founded their own city?
But Livy, you're supposed to be dead.

>>2769495
Also, to be precise, Dionysus of Halicarnussus said that the Etruscans were aboriginal to Italy and they shared nothing in common with the Lydian culture, turns out that he was right, at least in regard to them not being related to Lydians, he objected Herodotus' ideas about their origins.

>>2769575
>The latest very large mtDNA study from 2013 indicates, based on maternally-inherited DNA, that the Etruscans were most likely a native population.[37] The study extracted and typed the hypervariable region of mitochondrial DNA of 14 individuals buried in two Etruscan necropoleis, analyzing them along with previously analyzed Etruscan mtDNA, other ancient European mtDNA, modern and Medieval samples from Tuscany, and 4,910 modern individuals from the Mediterranean basin. The ancient (30 Etruscans, 27 Medieval Tuscans) and modern DNA sequences (370 Tuscans) were subjected to several million computer simulation runs, showing that the Etruscans can be considered ancestral to Medieval and, especially in the subpopulations from Casentino and Volterra, of modern Tuscans; modern populations from Murlo and Florence, by contrast, were shown not to continue the Medieval population. By further considering two Anatolian samples (35 and 123 individuals), it was estimated that the genetic links between Tuscany and Anatolia date back to at least 5,000 years ago, strongly suggesting that the Etruscan culture developed locally, and not as an immediate consequence of immigration from the Eastern Mediterranean shores. According to the study, ancient Etruscan mtDNA is closest among modern European populations and is not particularly close to Turkish or other Eastern Mediterranean populations. Among ancient populations, ancient Etruscans were found to be closest to Neolithic farmers from Central Europe.

>>2769580
Ha! I am not livy I just read his books!

Also do you reckon they were just Etrurian settlers who broke with the League and joined with the Latins?

>>2769582
So is the Roman claim of Aeneas coming to italy some long forgotten migration myth about Anatolics arriving in Italy? And is that entire understanding of Etruscans being non euros, valid?

>>2769640
So Etruscan culture is indigenous to Italy even though the peoples can be from pre-turkic anatolia?

>>2768976
No, this is because the Phoenicians and estruscans formed a closed relationship after the Phoenicians colonized Westward

>>2769641
There is no material evidence of an Anatolian migration to Etruria, there is an extraordinary continuity between the villanovian culture and the archaic Etruscan one, and the Villanovian culture came from the urnfield culture which was native to Europe, Central Europe to be precise.

If there was a large scale, or even a small scale migration to Etruria from the Near East, it would have been most likely detected.

For instance, around the same period the Etruscans developed, we have Phoenicians migrating west to Sardinia and Iberia, and even though they came in small numbers and didn't impact the native Sardinian population genetically, we have overwhelming traces of their presence, and it's rather obvious how the local Sardinian settlements changed incredibly in the span of a few years and became incredibly similar to the Phoenician ones, we see Phoenician pottery all over the island in huge quantities, we see Phoenician idols and Phoenician inscriptions and the alphabet being adopted by the natives, just to name a few of the most obvious things, and we're talking really small number, like a few thousand at best.

If anything like that happened to Central Italy but with some mysterious Anatolian population we would have known that by now, but in Etruria we see nothing of the sort, the settlements clearly developed gradually into Etruscan cities, the pottery didn't change suddenly, we don't see Luwian inscriptions or Anatolian hieroglyphs, which we should expect if an Anatolian colonization happened, and so on...

>>2769654
from Neolithic Anatolia, so just like the rest of all the Southern Europeans, they all mostly descend from those people.

>>2768473
lmao

>>2769687
Then how come there are claims that Etruscan language seems non indoeuropean but attributed to a european people?

>>2769743
It's a mystery, it is true that Etruscan is similar to the Lemnian language of the Lemnian isle, according to some inscriptions dating to the 6-5th century bc, but it is also similar to that of the Raethian peoples of what is now Trentino Alto Adige.

>>2769755
But Woudhuzen insists that the language is a modification of the Luwian language and Luwians were recorded as being present in southern Anatolia and he postulates that the Mysians also contributed to the language. Also it is important to note that the Alphabet was introduced into Italy by the Etruscans and the Punic Alphabet was the basis for most european ones. So is there no chance that the Anatolians may have learnt the alphabet from the punics and then over time modified it and then when colonizing bought along their alphabets to italy and established themselves later on?

>>2769799
>insists that the language is a modification of the Luwian language

Absolute bollocks, whoever he is he knows nothing about linguistics, Etruscan is considered to be a Non Indoeuropean language, it is an isolated language just like Sumerian or Basque, while Luwian was an Indoeuropean language of the Anatolian branch just like Hittite, Lycian, Carian and Lydian, so they are not even distantly related, they're completed different languages.

>So is there no chance that the Anatolians may have learnt the alphabet from the punics

Anatolians already had their scripts, that is Anatolian hieroglyphs and cuneiform (the later one being used mostly or exclusively by Hittites as far as I know), however some Anatolian populations, such as the Lydians and the Carians, aren't known to have used hieroglyphs or cuneiform, and so it seems that their Phoenician influenced alphabets such as Lydian was the first scripts they had ever used.

>punics

It isn't correct to call them punics since that term is used to refer to the Carthaginians by the academia, just call the Phoenicians, since they came from Tyre or Sidon, Carthage was founded later and didn't become relevant until the 6th century bc, when Phoenicians had to evacuate Tyre because of the Assyrian conquest.

>>2769743
>>2769755

Etruscan and the other Tyrsenian languages are likely pre-Aryan linguistic relics, like Basque. Basically the Etruscans were members of the pre-Aryan Anatolian farmers who migrated to Europe in the Neolithic.

>>2769495

I'm pretty certain that the Romans (and likely many of the other Latin tribes) were a mutt race of the proto-Celtic/Italic Indo-European invaders of the Italian peninsula mixed with native Etruscans.

>>2768993
Yeah, because the protocelts had a world wide empire.

The worlds different now, but back then language WAS ethnicity, insofar as tracking demographic changes through linguistics. Same method no longer works in modern times.

>>2768449
Who are the etruscans right now?

>>2769799
>>2769849
Also, Etruscans developed their alphabet from The Euboean alphabet, which in turn came from Phoenicians, so it wasn't a direct influence.

While for instance Iberians and Turdetans developed their alphabets directly from The Phoenicians, and Sardinians might have straight up used The Phoenician alphabet to write in their language, though there is some recent evidence that They developed their own script (a written terracotta boat found at Teti and another inscription with original symbols found in a sanctuary)

>>2769849
http://repub.eur.nl/res/pub/7686/Woudhuizen%20bw.pdf

>>2770000
I had read this publication a while ago and the part about Sardinia is kind of retarded, he identifies The sherden with the Sardinians but for retarded reasons

He says that "Sardinia was like a third world country so it's likely that The Sherden mercenaries were from that"

The reasoning itself is retarded, but it also underlines his complete obliviousness about Sardinian prehistory, since it was basically The only semi civilized region west of Greece, I get that this article is from like 30 years ago and there have been many discoveries concerning The Nuragic civilization, such as statues, The retrodating of The refined well temples and bronze figurines, but even given The time frame that sentence was just dumb

The Etruscans? Why they were ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ???

>>2770450
Uh, are you from alternate reality Veii which dominated italy instead of Rome?

>>2770564
??

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>>2770450
What did he meme by this?

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>>2770577
Does that mean Bait or banned?

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>>2770651
>google translate
>etruscan

pic related

>>2770847
Expand your vocabulary. ? ???? ? ????

>>2768449
Black