Mesoamerica Thread: Toltec edition

File: Toltec Empire.jpg (55KB, 1280x949px) Image search: [Google]

55KB, 1280x949px

>>2749759
>Toltec edition
the Toltec really dont get enough love

imo they were the most impressive mesoamerican civilization

>>2749759
>Aztec legends of the fall of the Toltec capital
what legends?

File: tohuenyo.jpg (611KB, 684x6364px) Image search: [Google]

611KB, 684x6364px

>>2749852
pic related.

>>2749840
I think in part it's because we still don't know much about them, in comparison to say the Aztecs or Maya whom we have more detailed info. It's kind of like Teotihuacan another major civilization, but no one even knows there ethnicity or who they were. We at least know the Toltecs spoke Nahuatl.

I really only have a vague understanding of what the Toltecs' role in Mesoamerica was, and it's a bit confusing.
What archaeological evidence supports Aztec legend of the Toltec empire, at least in that it existed?

>>2749888
BIG

>>2750260
They're the precursor culture. The OG niggas that all the mesoamerican cultures descended frm.

File: 338.gif (5KB, 200x220px) Image search: [Google]

5KB, 200x220px

>>2750260
Well many people doubt to was an actual Empire, they did rule much of the land around the valley of Mexico, that is a fact. But whether they actually controlled all the land in this pic >>2749840 or not is unknown. The aztecs basically used the same system of government the Toltecs did, and had tributaries as well.
I think it merely did a better job of spreading it's influence. Then again if Influence is enough to call something an empire maybe lesser known cultures like the ancient chupicuaro(pic related), whos seramic figures have been found as far north as Arizona, could also be called empires.

>>2750277
Huh, so like the mesoamerican version of Rome?

As long as we're discussing the Toltecs, does anyone else think the god Quetzalcoatl was just a popular Toltec king or maybe a powerful conquerer?
Because Ce Acatl Topiltzin , a Toltec king who was born in 895, and was credited with conquering the northern half of the Yucatan peninsula, was a mythologised figure who some people think was "confused or conflated" with Quetzalcoatl.

Maybe he's not Quetzalcoatl, but after the supposed rule of Ce Acatl Topiltzin the worship of Quetzalcoatl significantly spread especially among the Maya as Kukulkan. Who as I looked up on Wikipedia it said "In Yucatán, references to the deity Kukulkan are confused by references to a named individual who bore the name of the god. Because of this, the distinction between the two has become blurred"
Could that also be Ce Acatl Topiltzin?

>>2750303
Quetzalcoatl could have been an alternate name, his patron deity, or a title perhaps? The Aztecs gave the title of their secondary leader in charge of the city Cihuacoatl (who was a deity like Quetzalcoatl). In the Popol Vuh one of the greatest kings of the Kiche Maya was alternatively known as Gucumatz ( which translates as plumed serpent). Some believe though that Gucumatz was another ruler who followed him. I remember reading somewhere that Topiltzin was a rival of Huemac. One of the ongoing themes about the downfall of the Toltecs is the rivalry between Tezcatlipoca and Quetzalcoatl.

>>2750334
>that Topiltzin was a rival of Huemac
But how? If, historically, they lived about a century apart.

>>2749759
It was burned down by the Aztecs. You can actually see some pre-Aztec writings on the plinths of some Toltec figures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantean_figures

File: 1280px-Toltec-style_Vessel_1.jpg (171KB, 1280x1497px) Image search: [Google]

171KB, 1280x1497px

>>2750394
>"Atlantean here refers to the figures' supporting posture, alluding to the load-bearing Titan Atlas, not Atlantis."
Bullshit, they just don't want us to know the truth.
This guy is probably what Poseidon looked like.

>>2750334
>One of the ongoing themes about the downfall of the Toltecs is the rivalry between Tezcatlipoca and Quetzalcoatl.

Somewhat related: I've occasionally seen the claim that the rise of the cult of Tezcatlipoca introduced human sacrifice into Mesoamerica. Are there any dates, or general evidence that coincides with this? Open question to everyone.

File: Topiltzin.jpg (2MB, 1000x2731px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1000x2731px

>>2750380
Some timelines are different and have them existing within their lifetimes. This version even has them co ruling together. Apparently theres a Quetzalcoatl who ruled as a brilliant ruler early in the city's history, and theres another who ruled during its downfall.

excuse the bad scan, it was hard to do with the book and I had to retype a few letters that got blurry.

>>2750803
Not sure but human sacrifice seems to be a thing even the Olmecs practiced. The classic period Maya had it, and did not have a cult of Tezcatlipoca. It may be christian propaganda at the time as they villainized Tezcatlipoca as a Devilish figure (probably due to his trickster aspect) and viewed Quetzalcoatl as 'Good'. Even though such dichotomy did not exist in Mesoamerican thought. Some friars even speculated that Quetzalcoatl was St. Thomas or some apostle of Christ. They tried to link Topiltzin with Thomas, and tried their best to feed the natives a digestable version of christianity.

>>2751617
Yeah, it seemed like a strange claim considering that the timeline doesn't make sense at all, and it never goes into any more detail about it than that. Though it seems plausible that it'd be an attempt to demonize him. The Church has a track record for creating rigid dualism where there isn't any.

File: Fiesta purepecha.jpg (427KB, 1162x1571px) Image search: [Google]

427KB, 1162x1571px

Wish we knew more about these guys. All I could find is one codex of theirs.

File: traditional-purepecha.jpg (32KB, 550x363px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 550x363px

>>2752947
There's actually a good amount of information on the Purepecha out there.

>>2753092
Any books you recommend?

>>2753096
hmm now that you mention it i cant think of any books. all the info ive found on them has been online.