Why no Gulags Museum or Gulags Memorial Day?

>>2733511
We generally don't make memorials for criminals.

>>2733511
Russia doesn't like to be reminded that they were literally Nazis.

>>2733524
>t. kulak fascist

Gulags, like secret police, are not something unique to the Soviet Union. They have existed from some form in Imperial times and to some extent still exist today.
Why have a monument to russians being russians

>>2733524
>literally Nazis
This post is funny because it is displaying the same sort of behavior OP is mentioning. How people mention the horrors of Nazi Germany a lot but not much of the USSR.

>>2733511
Japanese killed more Chinese and Koreans than Nazis killed Jews, we don't care because they are not white.

U.S.S.R killed more Ukrainians than Nazis killed Jews, we don't care because they were on the winning side.

>>2733511
This picture is clearly from a Nazi concentration camp, though.

>>2733850
This is not how it works. We care about both, but the Nazis wanted to exterminate an entire ethnic group and they actually killed more than 50 % European Jews.

>U.S.S.R killed more Ukrainians than Nazis killed Jews
And this is not even true. The Nazis killed more Ukrainians than the Soviets.

>>2733511
Wouldn't that have to be set up either by the victims or the apologetic perpetrators? The Russians aren't that apologetic, and they also make up a large percentage of the victims. The rest of the victims are eastern Europeans from countries nobody really cares about.

So basically Russia would have to do it and isn't doing it. There's the answer.

>>2733511
No Jews involved on receiving end.

>>2733511
http://www.gmig.ru/o-muzee
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_Remembrance_of_the_Victims_of_Political_Repressions

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>>2733532
this

Not even a /pol/ack but it's because the victims aren't heavily involved in american media.

>>2733867
>We care about both
I spent 2 weeks on the Holocaust in high school and did not even hear about the Holodomor until I started reading history on my own. Japanese war crimes were glossed over.
We do not care about both equally.

>>2733879
There are monuments like that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Victims_of_Communism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katy%C5%84_Memorial_(Jersey_City)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victims_of_Communism_Memorial

>>2733902
That's because Holocaust was more unique.

>>2733891
> go to demonstration or get killed
That's literally written on their faces.

>>2733867
>the Nazis wanted to exterminate an entire ethnic group and they actually killed more than 50 % European Jews.

Proof?

>>2733918
Just about every history class or book, or TV show, or Internet article. Are you racist or something?

>>2733918
Most Polish, Baltic and Hungarian Jews were killed off. Read a book.

>>2733511
Too many leftist apologists.

>>2733912
Systematic? Yes it was very disturbing.
But, in the end millions of people rounded up and killed vs millions dead from forced famine and mass slaughter of civilian populations in war time.

In the end millions of people are dead one way or another.

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>>2733543
Topkek this.

>Kill 6 million million Jews from 1941-1945
>Sources mostly come from the NKVD
>Kill six million people in Ukraine in 1936 then go onto starve and genocide a few hundred million afterwards
>but that's okay because Stalin sided with the capitalists in WW 2
>Tankies dindu nuffin

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>>2733867
>Nazis wanted to exterminate an entire ethnic group

No? They just wanted Jews out of Europe at any cost, they actually assisted people to move to Israel which is what most of the camps were originate built for until they decided to just kill everyone.

>>2733952
>>Sources mostly come from the NKVD
Sources mostly come from Nazi Germany. You know very little about the holocaust.

>Kill six million people in Ukraine in 1936 then go onto starve and genocide a few hundred million afterwards
The famine killed overall 6-7 million people, 4-5 million from Ukraine.
>genocide a few hundred million afterwards
That never happened.

>tankies dindu nuffin
No one says this.

>>2733960
This is not true. Havaara Agreement wasn't taken seriously by anyone, and the Germans agreed to it for economic reasons.

>>2733966
>Sources mostly come from Nazi Germany. You know very little about the holocaust.

Generplan Ost came from the NKVD, as did most of the documents. They were recreated documents, primary sources were rare.

You know very little about the Holocaust.

>A bunch of contrarian autism

It's like you were too autistic to understand I was talking indirectly to /leftypol/

>>2733979
>Havaara Agreement wasn't taken seriously by anyone,

Except for all those rich Jews who got out of Dodge, not to mention the Madascar Plan and Hitler saying in Mein Kampf that he initially just wanted to deport the Jews but would resort to killing them if the liberals and communists invaded him

>>2733994
>They were recreated documents, primary sources were rare.
But we have other sources such as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen_reports

We also know, thanks to German sources, how many people were packed to trains and sent to Auschwitz.
We also have documents like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram

Generalplan Ost documents tell us nothing about how many people were killed.

>>2733850
>U.S.S.R killed more Ukrainians than Nazis killed Jews, we don't care because they were on the winning side.

This isn't true, 3-5 million ukrainians died vs 5-6 million Jews. Of course you'll accept the former without question but cry about the latter, though

>>2733930
Nice source.

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>>2733952
>hundreds of millions of ukrainians died

wewlad

>>2733928
>questioning history is racism

1.) The russian government is still defensive about Gulags

2.) Most of the Gulags are in very remote, isolated regions wherea Auschwitz and co. are near/in major areas. Museums wouldn't work

3.) There are days to remember the victims of Stalin in a few former soviet states

Of course, this is just a crypto-/pol/ thread so this wont do anything

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>>2734057
>>2734060

>>2734058
>Not understanding that "afterwards" implies after "Ukrainian famine"

Wewlad lrn2 to read

Gulag Museums exist:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34675413

/pol/ is full of retards

>>2734074
stalin didnt kill hundreds of millions of anyone

his victims are around 20-25 million, which is less than the total # of people killed by the germans anyway

>>2734001
Except those deportation would result in millions of deaths. That was always Hitler's goal. There was no infrastructure and not enough food for millions of Jews in Madagascar.

>Except for all those rich Jews who got out of Dodge
How many Jews? There were 500,000 Jews in Germany before Hitler came to power. In 1939 roughly 250,000 Jews remained in the country. Obviously not all of them left to Palestine. So in the span of 6 years less than 250,000 Jews moved to Palestine.

How would it work with more than 3 million Polish Jews?

>>2734047
Yes, and those other sources are still pretty rare desu the Nazis did try their best to hide their shit after all, the Soviets only got what they did because they rushed the Germans and recreated the document because the Nazis fled in a hurry.

It's still fairly well documented, just not nearly as well documented or horrible as the communists which people tend to forget about in this day and age, which was my original point.

>>2734085
>Except those deportation would result in millions of deaths. That was always Hitler's goal. There was no infrastructure and not enough food for millions of Jews in Madagascar.

No? He would've resettled them and given them land to work.

>Obviously not all left

Yes because Poland happened, Hitler probably just wanted to expell the Jews as European nations had done for hundreds of year.

>>2734082
I was implying communism as a whole. /his/ has worse reading problems than /pol/ it seems. At least /pol/ has the occasional rainman guy

>>2733952
>genocide a few hundred million afterwards
There were barely 210,000,000 people in all of the USSR in 1959

>>2734068
>It's this jpg again

Ffs there has never been enough mass graves to support muh six trillion jews. Saying that millions of bodies were eaten and looted by poor people is not an excuse topkek.

>Quoting journalists and news articles post WW 2

>>2734131
>/his/ still can't read

Ffs I was talking about communism as a whole

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>>2734135
great job debunking that. Everything I don't like is a shill

>>2734145
>Everything I don't like is a shill
>Try to debunk blog opinions with blog opinions
>Then he tries to strawman me

All the sources in that jpg come from random blogs with no hard statistics whatsoever and non of which imply genocide. It's just bad argumentation.

>>2734145
>It's yet another reference to the Kohrerr report and the deportation documents under the a priori assumption that they were all actually exterminate
>All of the counter arguments are ad hoc
All of the straw men are literally geared toward beginner level memes

What's next the Leucter report one?

>>2734152
you mean those AMAZING /pol/ jps that post pictures of wooden doors and claim they're gas chambers so the holocaust didn't happen?

>>2734172
>Implying the reverse jpg's people post against /pol/which does nothing but have blog sources, blatant ad hoc rationalizations, and anecdotal emotional appeals are any better

If you get your opinions on the holocaust from a single author or meme.images online you are a retard.

>>2734181
Oh so the /pol/ infographs are bad? wtf do you think is the amazing evidence for the holocaust never happening then? Iran? David Duke? That's about all you have left.

>>2734181
I mean a lot of it is nobody takes holocaust denial seriously in professional fields, because it's so ridiculous, so "debunking" it isn't really that big of an issue. Any real person in the real world with a real job would get laughed out of a building by saying the holocaust is fake

>>2734139
It's an exaggerated death toll still.

>>2734193
>wtf do you think is the amazing evidence for the holocaust never happening then?
the leader of israel saying hitler not wanting to exterminate the jews sure helps

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>>2734193
Nigger I don't think the Holocaust didn't happen. I'm just telling you that on 4chsn Holocaust believers are just as retarded as the deniers , both sides care more about their political beliefs than history and post shitty arguments both ways

>>>/pol/

>>2734198
>building by saying the holocaust is fake

Guess you don't know much about Greece then topkek. Nice eurocentric view on the world btw

>>2734204
>A few hundred million I'd say 50 million at least to 100 million max. The Cultural revolution was pretty fucked desu and all the genocides and wars inspired by communism killed a lot more than people think.

>>2734058
>hating commies makes you a holocaust denier
wew smells like leftypol

>>2734216
>One failure to press enter and get whole post is fucked

Kill me

Stalin and Mao didn't specifically target Jews.

Jews leveraged post-Holocaust guilt to further their position in society and take a death grip on the media, and used said media to elevate the Holocaust over other atrocities that were quantifiably worse.

>>2734124
>as European nations had done for hundreds of year
Except most European nations never expelled all their Jews.

>No? He would've resettled them and given them land to work.
There wasn't enough land for few million people.

>>2734110
>just not nearly as well documented or horrible as the communists
There is not a single Communist document proving that millions of people were killed.

>>2734262
>Except most European nations never expelled all their Jews.

Lol

>>2734271
>Lol
It's true. What European nations expelled all their Jews?

>>2734275
Lmfao

The funding for Gulag museum would take away from the funds for HOLOCAUST museum. SIX MILLION OF THE CHOSEN PEOPLE died in the holocaust. The suffering of non-jews is irrelivent compared to the suffering of the chosen tribe.

>>2734262
>Except most European nations never expelled all their Jews.

Just most, they moved from place to place very often. Here is one famous example

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree

>There wasn't enough land for few million people

In both Israel and Madagascar? Sauce?

>There is not a single Communist document proving that millions of people were killed.

Sauce or gtfo leftypol

>>2733932
you mean tankies...

>there's already a word for that and even left-wingers know this word.

>>2733939
yeah, but what makes one more unique than the other is the systematic factory like method in which it was done.
>>2733960
forgetting to mention the part where all their assets and possessions became property of the Reich if they chose to leave.

>>2734135
>Ffs there has never been enough mass graves to support muh six trillion jews.
Every single person on earth standing together as close as possible to each other could all fit on the island of Zanzibar.

>>2734053
>6 million jews
even the most rational and well-read non-deniers will tell you that number is wrong. there were memorials writ in stone post-war that were 2 million lower than that

>>2733952
>that's okay
Nobody says this but Russians, idiot.

>>2733511
They deserved it and worked to death is better than being gassed

>>2734751
Except this is the number accepted by most academics.

>there were memorials writ in stone post-war that were 2 million lower than that
Irrelevant. Memorials aren't historical sources.

>>2734597
>Sauce or gtfo leftypol
I should ask about your sources mentioning millions of people killed by the Communists. And I'm talking about documents, not books written by historians.

>>2735003
I should ask you the same since you're just going debate about a priori semantics. I mean by your logic the Holocaust never happened because all the documents that support which have been found have just been estimates about how many people have gone through certain camps and never mentioned outright execution.

Topkek.

>If the government responsible for killing millions of people refuses to record the amount of people who die under their regime then it never happened.

TOPKEK

>>>/leftypol/

>>2734987
>No on says this but Russians
>He's never trolled leftypol

Tankies of all kinds defend this fuck off retard.

>>2735025
But you just said that Communist crimes are better documented. My point is that they aren't.

>I mean by your logic the Holocaust never happened because all the documents that support which have been found have just been estimates about how many people have gone through certain camps and never mentioned outright execution.
Einsetzgruppen reports mention executions.

>>2735003
I mean if you want some primary sources just google it topkek

>>2733511
Actually Westerners already care more about victims of the gulags than Russians do:

"We must remember the millions who died in the Soviet camps. Why? That nasty, nagging "why?" kept dogging me as I made my way through Anne Applebaum's long (600 pp.) and well-researched history of the GULAG. If I hadn't lived in Moscow from 2002 to 2004, I probably wouldn't have had the nerve to challenge Applebaum's mission, commemorating the victims of Stalinism. But one thing you learn in Russia, whether you want to or not, is that the Russians are not interested in this subject at all. And their lack of interest is strangely contagious, infecting even formerly avid fans of Zek literature like myself.

Before living in Russia, I used to wonder why none of the sons or grandsons of GULAG prisoners hunted down the thugs who tortured and killed their relatives. It happened in China, where descendants of those persecuted by the Red Guard tracked down and beat or even killed ex-Guards. And there's an army of well-funded pursuers tracking down the few living ex-Nazis. Why didn't Russians go after Stalin's surviving executioners?

The simple, disturbing answer is that they're not interested. And that bothers us. It's not that the West cares very much about the Russians -- either the millions who died, or the 140 million struggling to live in contemporary Russia. We've made our indifference to them pretty clear, over the past fifteen years. "

>>2735038

"Rather we need to believe that everyone shares our alleged dedication to the Christian-derived notion that we have to love everyone. And that means mourning, or at least going through the motions of mourning, every mass death.

So we wait for the Russians to start moaning and gnashing their teeth over the GULAG, as we would wait for a bereaved family to start keening over their loss. We've been standing nervously outside the Russians' hut for over a decade now, waiting for those banshee wails to trigger our public tears.

And there's been this silence -- at first puzzling, then offensive. And at last, realizing that these shameless Russians aren't going to start their own rites, we decided to do the job ourselves.

Thus Applebaum's book was born. And it has the feeling of a belated, awkward funeral oration by one who didn't know the deceased very well, but is driven by a deep sense of moral righteousness to perform the proper rites. To her credit, Applebaum knows and admits that the Russians themselves aren't interested in commemorating the victims of the camps. She mentions that the only monument they have in Moscow is a single stone from the Solovetsky Islands. We lived a block from that stone, and for two years we walked past it nearly every day. I don't recall seeing anyone take notice of it, even once. It sat there, splattered with birdshit, facing Lubyanka -- completely forgotten. By contrast, the statue of Dzerzhinsky, though exiled to the Statue Garden by the river, is covered with curses and homage, just biding its time. "

>>2735033
>But you just said that Communist crimes are better documented. My point is that they aren't

And I never contradicted myself. Communists are just as well documented as the Nazis if not more because the communists didn't get to hide as much of their sources.

Seriously starting to question your objectivity here.

>>2735040
[...]
"The comparison to post-1945 Germany is the crucial one, the one by which contemporary Russia keeps disappointing and annoying righteous Westerners like Applebaum. This is yet another case of the "Hitler Standard," by which the Nazis are the gold standard of evil, and the painful rehabilitation of Germany after 1945 the gold standard of recovery.

And of course this version of what happened in Germany in 1945 requires a suppression of memory at least as great as that involved in Russia's apathy towards Stalin's crimes. In the first place, it's not the case that Germany's crimes, in general, made much of an impression on "people's minds." Germany's crimes against Russians, in particular, were little noticed nor long remembered in the West -- despite the fact that the majority of the Wehrmacht's victims were Slavs.

Most massacre victims are the sort of people not likely to be remembered. This is one of those almost-tautologies that's still worth saying, like the old evolutionary biologists' joke that most of us are descended from people who didn't die before puberty.

Only when a massacre is unusually dramatic and interesting, and/or involves people to whom we feel particularly close, do most of us feel anything. In other words, the Christian-derived premise that there is some Enlightenment moral sense in each of us, which reacts with instinctive horror at any mass suffering, is simply nonsense."

"The crimes of history are optional. We mix, match and discard according to taste and convenience. It's useful for Applebaum's Tory backers to remember Stalin's crimes because they can still use them to bash anyone who might want to beef up the National Health system with higher taxes. "Today an extra 1% VAT on my Jag convertible, tomorrow Kolyma!" is a very familiar war cry from these crusaders for human rights. Other massacres are dim stats, to be dredged up when necessary..."

>>2735033
>Einzatsgruppen

Reports combatant casualties. That is war, communists were not at war when they committed their crimes either. Not that this excuses the Einzatsgruppen's methods of executing anyone accused of being a communist like the Jacobins before them.

>>2735049
Yes, some communist crimes are well documented, but there are no documents proving that they killed 20 million or even 10 million people.

>>2735056
>20 million or even 10 million people.

Yeah no

>>>Leftypol

You're either a newfags who hasn't read anything yet or googled basic bitch stuff or you're a disingenuous faggot.

>>2735055

>Operational Situation Report USSR No. 106

>Einsatzgruppe C


>Location: Kiev


>II: Executions and other measures

>The population was extremely infuriated against the Jews because of their preferential economical status under Soviet rule. It could also be proved that the Jews had participated in arson. The population expected adequate reprisals from the Germans. For this purpose, in agreement with the city military command, all the Jews of Kiev were ordered to appear at a certain place on Monday, September 29, by 6 o'clock. This order was publicized by posters all over the town by members of the newly organized Ukrainian militia.

>At the same time, oral information was passed that all the Jews of Kiev would be moved to another place. In cooperation with the HQ of EGC and two Kommandos of the police regiment South, Sonderkommando 4a executed 33,771 Jews on September 29 and 30. (1) Gold and valuables, linen, and clothing were secured. Part of it was given to the NSV (National-Sozialistische Versorgung = Nazi Welfare) for the ethnic Germans, and part to the appointed city administration for distribution among the needy population. The action was carried out smoothly and no incidents occurred. The population agreed with the plan to move the Jews to another place.

>That they were actually liquidated has hardly been made known. However, according to the experience gained so far, this would not meet with any opposition. The army has also approved the measures taken. The Jews that have not yet been caught or who will return will be treated accordingly. At the same time, a number of NKVD men and commissars were arrested and finished off.

>>2735065
>TLDR ; war

Sounds about right

>>2734058
>using the same methods of propaganda the pol people use
I fucking hate you ideological psychopaths

>>2735062
>Yeah no
Yeah yes.

>>2733902
>2 weeks
Wow so brainwashing

>>2735071
Yeah no.

>I'm a sperg about the Nazis and only researched about the Nazis so therefore nothing else except my own microcosm is documented

An hero immediately.

>>2733952
> a few hundred million afterwards
Dude, what are you on? I need some of that.

>>2735080
>/his/ still can't read

Communism as a whole has killed easily. 100 million through famine, war, and persecution.

>>2735079
Then show me those documents.

>>2735089
Go to fucking Wikipedia Jesus Christ

Maybe you need to go back to l*ddit instead

>>2735088
Communism probably, the USSR didn't.
Blame Marx, the Germ*n Jew.

>>2735095
I was implying communism as a whole in the my post

>>2735092
>According to a 1993 study of archival Soviet data, a total of 1,053,829 people died in the Gulag from 1934 to 1953 (there is no archival data for the period 1919–1934).

This is from the documents. There are naturally not documents about how many people died during the famine.

>According to the declassified Soviet archives, during 1937 and 1938, the NKVD detained 1,548,366 persons, of whom 681,692 were shot
This is the amount killed during the Great Purge.

There were also other actions such as Polish NKVD Operation, Katyń massacre and so on. It's still not 10 million.

>>2734751

You mean to say numbers and historical narratives change as time goes on and new sources of information come to light or old methods of analysis get proven incorrect? Who would have thought it?

>>2735062
Where did you gain information?
Pol image macros?
Btw, your grammar is absolutely atrocious

>>2735103
>Focusing on only the Soviets

The death I'll.is between 85 to 100 million, when I said look.up the communist death tolls I didn't mean source the NKVD. If you were to source the SS it would be about 1 to 2 million who died.

At this point you might as well.come out as a tankie Anon.

>>2733850
>Japanese killed more Chinese and Koreans than Nazis killed Jews

And there are many museums in Asia about that problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seodaemun_Prison

>>2735174
>Btw, your grammar is absolutely atrocious

You forgot a period a faggot. Where did you get your information straight from leftypol? The maxum estimates of the Communist death toll are at about 200 million which are exaggerated, but because because like.yourself can't read the thread worth shit you probably haven't read how many times I've explained to people that I was just giving leftypol shit for trying to take the moral high ground over /pol/

But of course leftypol has to pretend to be objective while it shills Soviet statistics then deny those statistics ever existed whenever convenient.

>>2735067
>killing civilians during war who weren't praising your name only because you were anti Semitic
Also 'Jews received preferential treatment', why are anti semites always so quick to jump to conclusions

>>2735000
>Is accepted by most academics
>The zeitgeist is always right.

Kys

>>2735092
>herpaderp use Wikipedia not credited historians
M8 this is b8 >>2735103

>>2735199
>Civilians
>In war

Want to know how I know you're a civilian?

>>2735193
>people should read the whole comment chain before posting
Why even care about a group you so clearly hate anon, you hold onto hot coals but merely burn yourself

>>2735204
I was insulting his intelligence in case you couldn't tell. He is basically being a retard where he is trying to as infinitum question my beliefs on whether or not the communist death tolls exceeded 10 million via denying there are primary sources.

It's not b8 it's called newfaggotry.

>>2735210
Because I'm not a member of a military or paramilitary organisation, then again Nazis find it just fine to bomb women and children in populated but economically unimportant English cities

>>2735214
>Making a priori assumptions about other people


No I don't hate Jews but just because I don't suck Israel's dick doesn't make me a Nazi. It's not like there were log standing egnic tensions which lead to the Holocaust in the first place even though Americlaps like to pretend the Nazis came out of nowhere.

>>2735217
>Nazis find it just fine to bomb women and children in populated but economically unimportant English cities
>It's an anglos were innocent episode

If you knew anything about Levinasian philisophical concepts you would realize how stupid you are

Because we all live in the gulag now.

>>2735245
the gulag was inside of us all along

>>2733511
Well there is something like that in Latvia and maybe other Baltic states where we have a memorial day for the people who died by the hands of the soviets, there's also two memorial days of the deportations to siberia, but then again we do have a legionare day so...

>>2733538
Neither are concentration camps, though,

The ones the public remembers are just the ones that stood out due to scale, and I'd definitely argue that the Gulags fit the bill of having a crazy high number.

>>2733511
Both literally exist in Russia, now stick a cactus up your ass.

>>2733511
Because the Russians won WW2 with the allies so they are the good guys. They did nothing wrong.

>>2737674
But didn't Russians lost the Cold war?

>>2733511
There are several museums.

>>2735193
Not the person you're talking to, but you seriously need to improve your grammar and writing skills. I had to read that soup sandwich of a paragraph three times before i even understood the gist of it.

>>2733511
Russian-American here. I'm no expert on Russian psychology because I'm Russian-American, I'm just pointing out my Russianness so people don't think I'm biased against Russia.... I also should mention that a lot of what I'm about to say is based on the Russians who I have personally known, so it's almost certainly a distortion of reality. That said...
Many Russians still fetishize WW2 as the great good war that their ancestors fought (similar to how Americans fetishize WW2, but more intensely), so they are uncomfortable with diving too deeply into the horrors of Stalinism. I suspect that looking deeply into Stalinism is also unpleasant because it forces Russians to confront the fact that their ancestors failed to stop madmen from fucking them in the ass for decades (centuries, really). And fetishizing WW2 also serves the interests of the current government, which uses nationalism to rule the minds of simpletons and distract them from nation's economic and political problems. That said, there are various memorials to the victims of communism in Russia.
Meanwhile, in the West, it doesn't really serve anyone powerful's political agenda to talk up the horrors of the gulags. It did during the cold war, but most people wouldn't have cared enough to make memorials to victims in the nation of the cold war enemy. And now that the cold war is over, it doesn't really serve anyone powerful's agenda any more.

>>2737718
Cont...

Russians tend to be very proud and stubborn in certain ways, but meek and submissive in others. We were Christcucks and Tsarcucks for centuries, then the communists murdered so many of the people who wouldn't put up with shit that probably the murders themselves created a more meek and submissive nation than had existed before. Many Russians have the attitude that, basically, politics suck and always will be ruled by corrupt people, and basically all you can hope for is that the corrupt people will be relatively decent... so let's focus on the future and try to make practical decisions to create a good life for ourselves and our relatives, and not try to make big changes.
I find these meek sort of attitudes disgusting, but given Russia's history with revolutions and authoritarianism, they are somewhat understandable. Russians are like beaten dogs.

>>2737721
Cont...
If some Ivan in Russia started making a big fuss about the horrors of the gulags, they would get sympathy and people would be supportive, but probably after a certain point people would be like "oh come on, yeah it was horrible but it wasn't all bad, we won the war, blah blah blah we became industrialized, blah blah blah, why do you care so much, it's in the past, blah blah blah". Nationalism is still bound up to some extent with the accomplishments of Soviet times. And the ruling party is anti-communist in theory, but in practice it doesn't benefit them to question authoritarianism as a political method too much.

>>2737718
>>2737721
Good posts. These are my impressions on the Russians as well.

>>2737737
But again, I should mention that these are mostly just guesses on my part... I'm ethnically Russian, but I haven't lived in Russia for many years.

>>2733900
This. I'm not a /pol/ack either. I think the Holocaust happened, I don't think that Jews run the world, etc... but obviously Jews *are* disproportionately influential in Western academia, media, politics, and pretty much every white-collar field. The centrality of the Holocaust in the modern conception of 20th century history is largely the product of Jewish influence and of the WW2 victors' desire to justify the war. I think that the mass murder of Jews was horrible, but no, it doesn't deserve a greater prominence than the crimes of the Soviet and Chinese totalitarian regimes.

>>2737798
Also, of course leftists in academia have to some extent white-washed communist crimes. This is not unique to leftists... if rightists dominated academia they would do the same with the crimes of rightist governments.

>>2737745
I'm Russian and I think that was spot on.

>>2737798
>it doesn't deserve a greater prominence than the crimes of the Soviet and Chinese totalitarian regimes
Why? Only Nazis did directly affected western countries.

>victors' desire to justify the war
To whom? The axis?

>>2734205
wow it's funny how before none of those eyewitnesses were legit because they were jews, but now that some jew made a statement about the holocaust after the fact we should take his word for it

>>2733511
But there are those.

>>2734207
>Holocaust believers
You are one who is retarded.
Not to mention Stirner posting.

File: 1489561759116.jpg (114KB, 700x542px) Image search: [Google]

114KB, 700x542px

>>2740841
>both sides post shitty blogs and single source authors they believe based on fundamentalism rather than objectivity
>neither sides ever source their arguments
>neither side knows how to source their argument

No but I'm sure your side is definitely right the best historians are die hard ad populum fags

>>2733890
/thread

>>2740859
Holocaust controversies blog always posts their bibliography and most articles are based on original German documents anyway.

>>2740879
>Holocaust controversies blog always posts their bibliography and most articles are based on original German documents anyway.

So do Holocaust Revisionists

>>2740889
Not really. Their sources are very often other revisionists. They actually don't use German documents very often.

>>2740909
>Not really. Their sources are very often other revisionists. They actually don't use German documents very often.
>tfw most of the time revisionists site non-revisionists to troll them on their inconsistencies

Wew you haven't read much of them have you you?

>>2733867
>>2733912

true but its also because there's lots of jews in academia and the media. Fuck it amazes me how naive some intelligent people can be. Looking for any reason to avoid the obvious truth because its unpalatable

>>2740942
And all the black people in academia and the media want us to talk about slavery

>>2740937
Most of the time revisionists ignore reports and other documents or try to prove they were forged.

>>2740955
>Most of the time revisionists ignore reports and other documents or try to prove they were forged.

Revisionists are usually too autistic to leave something out ever, i really don't know what revisionists you might be thinking of.

>>2740942
Which "obvious truths" are you referring to?

>>2733939
>forced famine
Nope just regular famine.

They even borrowed money on the sly fro America to try and mitigate it. They were just incompetent.

>>2740957
Most revisionists, like Rudolf, Mattogno, Irving and others.

"Pop revisionists" like /pol/fags or YT retards aren't even worth talking about. Their infographics are always full of shit.

>>2740971
http://www.jta.org/2017/01/31/news-opinion/united-states/remember-the-11-million-why-an-inflated-victims-tally-irks-holocaust-historians

Woops

>>2733511

>misleading pic

Troll harder.

>>2740971
First off, name what they were ignoring intentionally to lie to other people ffs

>>2740983
Many documents and sometimes even context.

>https://books.google.pl/books?id=S1gWDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA484&lpg=PA484&dq=hans+kammler+forgery?&source=bl&ots=4zs4bbWDPk&sig=uMXkwX4ez06JQnaqR1u8BneLlaU&hl=en&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwj04K3-yM7TAhWGPBQKHSo9AEcQ6AEIXTAI#v=onepage&q=hans%20kammler%20forgery%3F&f=false
This for example.

>>2733912
But not the biggest.

>>2740997
There is a difference between being intentionally fraudulent and just getting things wrong, you realize? I mean this is more a case of "if"s if anything and sure Irving should not have focused on something that could've just been a mistake, but the entire point of the evidence of forgery is intent behind the forgery which makes it circumstantial evidence at best.

Yes, in a court of law that would not hold up well but that is just one case among many.

Pol is full of ct retard nazi apologists lmao pathetic

>>2733867
Soviets wanted to exterminate entire ethnic groups and some of them killed more than half too. Just of the top of my head some groups targeted for ethnic cleansing by soviets: ukrainians, latvians, lithuanians, estonians, cossacks, crimean tatars, karelians, finns, izhorians, votes, chechens, romanians, kalmyaks, koreans, volga germans and many other smaller ones aswell

>>2734749
Yes and? All of the graves, cadavers, and remains that was found wasn't even in the 10'000's. American officers were appalled when they saw the numbers posted in the millions. They sent missives to correct it, but was shot down by the top brass.

>Jews in the 1930s: "We need to liquidate the kulaks as a class."
>Jews in the 2010s: "We need to abolish the white race as a social category."

(((They))) don't want you to know what (((they))) did before, because (((they))) want to do it again. All the propaganda against rural peoples in the Western world, for voting against globalism, is a prelude to a new dekulakization campaign.

>>2742152
But what about the ###menace### of Volga? Do you know how {{{many}}} drowned there?

>>2737737
As a citizen of Russia (i'm not ethnic russian) i can confrim that it mostly true.
But it's certantly just a point of view
>Nationalism is still bound up to some extent with the accomplishments of Soviet times
Confederates are still around there, but haven't they been wrong?
Or what if USA lost Cold War? Then what? Would americans consider their history shameful? USA certainly done many good things, but there is much of bad thing too.
>they are uncomfortable with diving too deeply into the horrors of Stalinism.
Yeap, that a thing, major counter-argument "industrialization" certantly have some true (still remember quote from Pozner's autobiography "women kept photo of Stalin in Bible, becouse her sons became scientists, officers and enginers. This couldn't be achieved in Tsar's reign") Not trying to justify him, but common people tend to not think about others historical possibilities

>>2742105
Source?

>>2742045
They never wanted to exterminate these groups.

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>>2742223
I agree, not exterminate but cull into submissiveness

>>2742223
Yes thats true, they just wanted to kill and deport enough of them and replace them with russian colonists so as to make it impossible for them to rebel while also using them as slaves.

>>2742353
In fact its more evil than just killing all of them

>>2733850
>jews
>white