>Hannibal

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>>2722587
>shows them as light skinned or haired

This. THEY WUZ WHITE N SHIT

>>2722587
It's an American show, when epople think of Africa they think of dark skinned sub Sarahan Africans. Hannibal looked no different than the Lebanese and tunisian men of today

>>2722587
>Basketball American admixture
Okay, that was funny.

>>2722609
Lebanese and Tunisians don't look same

>>2722613
He was a mix

>>2722609
Modern Tunisians are 20% negroid

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>>2722607
A Y O O
Y
O
O

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SHHHIETTTTTT

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Where's the Dindu Admixture?

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0138453

>>2722617
IIRC the carthagenians only allowed members from old pheonician family's to become generals. That would mean he's pure Levantine

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Don't forget the Chi Rho

>>2723409
wait, he really had that helmet?

>>2723409
Looks like a budget $3 Halloween costume.

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>>2723431
It is, same company makes these

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>>2723437
topkek

It's political conditioning, nothing to do with history.

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They've done many genetic tests on this: despite what we wuzzers on both sides would have you believe, the genetics of people in North Africa are pretty much the same as they were in antiquity. It's very rare that any invasion or population transfer actually causes a noticeable demographic shift. For example:

>Until recently, some papers suggested that the distribution of the main L haplogroups in North Africa was mainly due to trans-Saharan slave trade.[23] However, in September 2010, a thorough study of Berber mtDNA by Frigi et al. concluded that most of L haplogroups were much older and introduced by an ancient African gene flow around 20,000 years ago.[24]

Whether that would make Hannibal "white" is an open question. Most modern white supremacists definitely would not consider him such. But he was not Sub-Saharan African.

Hannibal almost certainly looked a lot like the average person from Tunis today. That is, he probably looked a lot like the average southern Italian or Greek, except slightly swarthier. Look at a map: Carthage/Tunis is actually further north than parts of Greece. Supporting this is the fact that contemporary writings specifically point out that Hannibal's Numudian mercs were noticeably darker than the Roman troops, and later writings note that the Germanic peoples were very fair, yet say nothing about the Punics being of a noticeably different look than the Roman troops- who would be primarily drawn from central and southern Italy and Greek mercenaries/colonies in the Second Punic War. You can also look at frescoes of the half-Punic Roman Emperor Severus. Or busts. Or Carthaginian shekels depicting their heroes. All show fairly typical Mediterranean faces.

Pic related: modern Reconstruction of a Carthaginian noble based on DNA samples and a skeleton. Looks Moroccan.

>>2722587

I thought this was meant to be Saint Maurice, rather than Hannibal?

>>2723507

No it's We Wuz.

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How come Amerifats and other New Worlders are so obssessed with West Niggers? They were far behind until foreigners came around.

>>2722624
No they don't I'm tunisian and it's really rare to see black peoples here

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>>2722587
Calm down, /pol/.

It's just a public campaign to normalize black people everywhere in history so that white populations stop freaking out about African migration to Europe since that's going to vastly increase in the coming decades. Since white people are so fucking racist and can't come to terms with it not mattering since there's only one human race, this is a good idea. They'll stop panicking about it after a generation and it won't matter any more.

Now get back to /pol/, please.

>>2722640
I'm pretty sure they didn't like him in the movie either because he was american.

>>2724632
its perfectly ok if an international aristocracy destroys all semblance of democracy and floods Europe with an endless stream of foreigners against their will because whitey be raciss or because its just gonna happen, resistance is futile and eventually after a really long time no one will care.

also
>all ethnic groups are the same
>population growth is always a good thing even as automation takes hold
>people shouldn't be able to control their borders or be tribal in anyway... obey the new global government GOY

Nice logic.

>jesus was a jew
>is portrayed as a european by europeans
WE WUZ THE MESSIAH AND SHIT

>>2723403
>only members of the Osmanlik family could become Sultan/Caliphs, that would mean they were pure Turkish
Do you understand your mistake now?

>light-skined and light-haired

Ancient North Africans would still be darker than even Sardinians (the darkest hair and eyed Europeans), even if they had less than their current Sub-Saharan admixture (~20%) in ancient times.

>>2723502
That guy looks levantine, not north african

>>2722587
>Basketball American
>implying all blacks are American

Dumbass. Either way, Hannibal wasn't black.

>>2723502
People with the L haplogroup are usually black right? How did the ancient Berbers look going further back, before civilization? Were they just a "white" black race, like how there are very light skinned and dark skinned Asians? Because I remember seeing a study that said they have a common ancestor with Scandinavians.

>>2723981
> slavery and 12% of population
Hmmmmmm

>>2723981
>West Niggers

t. Ethiopian or Somali """Caucasoid"""

Unlike Black Americans, West Africans actually do have a pretty decent history. They weren't as advanced as their neighbor's up north, but they weren't caveman tier.

>>2724568
He said generically. Black Americans are 25% white on average but they don't all look like they have obviously white heritage, it's more subtle than that. Go get a DNA test, you may or may not have SSA ancestry.

great thread OP never seen this before surely we'll get a fresh and enlightening debate.

fuck me, I've seen hundreds of threads on carthage and egypt and I can count the number of them that weren't wewuz shitposting on one hand.

>>2724632

Everyone being human doesn't magically mean rapidly mixing radically different ethnic groups doesn't cause a social shitstorm. Everyone's human, and the human default setting is xenophobe.

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>>2724787
Tbh, while they were better than your average san bushmen hunter and gatherer, you're basically saying they were a shiny turd. Pic related is probably the closest you will get to Eurasian tier civilization.

>>2724787
>descendants of West Africans aren't connected to west Africans and don't have a shared history.
What is up these threads lately

>>2724802
Exactly why it's important to correct historical xenophobia so that unrest is reduced.

>>2723409
What the fuck

Were they seriously this lazy? That thing looks like it's made of plastic anyway.

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>>2724689

>pretending Euros and Hebrew aren't both West Eurasian

>>2724734

Go We Wuz elsewhere.

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>>2724921

And here's some North African paintings. Notice the hair.

>>2724921
>>2725001
There's nothing we-wuzing about it, idiot. The Levantine Neolithic populations that expanded throughout North Africa were overall dark-haired and dark-eyed and not that light-skinned either.

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>>2725035

> The Levantine Neolithic populations that expanded throughout North Africa were overall dark-haired and dark-eyed

Nobody said they didn't . They did have blondes and redheads among them before records.

>not that light-skinned either.

Maghreb Africans who aren't obviously overly admixtured with West Africans are much lighter than both them and Egyptians.

>>2722587
>africa...
>black people...
>black people are from africa...
>hannibal was from africa...
>hannibal was black...
>the white man is just lying...

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>>2724873
Or maybe we should stabilize africa instead of having capitalist shills exploit it? I mean its either that or all the niggers need to die, they can keep their ethnic wars in africa

>>2722703
what did they mean by this?

>>2725512
That's what I pay taxes for. Stop being hyperbolic, /pol/. You act like people don't adapt if you treat them well

>>2725714
>You act like people don't adapt if you treat them well

Thats not how anti-social personality traits and overall criminality works, desu. People just grow older, the overall demographics stays the same when such people have children because those traits are heritable.

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>>2725730
Americans tend to get the better Western ones apparently

>>2725078
Whenever people post this they never want to acknowledge the likely Barbary Trade in blondism.
>>2724780
No it's not Scandinavians, H in Sahara populations like the R-V88 are both ancient bloodlines that coalesced in-situ. Imagine 10-7kya a small clan of Asians migrating to the Americas and the phenotype altering or quickly mixing into the majority populations. It's like that, the diversity of the H branch in Tuareg is a bottleneck but within that bottleneck are 4 mutations specific to 4 different villages.

I am of the augment that these genes are not found amongst the noble classes of whom move and marry freely but to the inedan and "Haratin" the former is a specific caste found in Tuareg society who are very insular and are the healers, blacksmiths, leather crafts women, advisers of Noble castes. The Tuareg claim to 1. Either migrated with them as a distinct subpopulation or 2. Found them in oases when they adopted camel 2ya.

Haratin are called slaves or Bella, the assumption is all are Songhai or Tebu and sure some are that but some are recognized as the indigenous people. An exslaves of foriegn ancestry from the south has more standing than them and intact the Haratin are recognized as being indigenous to the Draa and were recorded as such by the Romans.

Both groups have limited migration compared to "Noble" castes. It's explain the diversity of their mutations.

>>2725762

>muh white slaves

Wall paintings, Mr. Kang.

>>2725758
say that in louisiana or almost any ghetto in the south

shit dude haven't you watched an episode of cops? there cities full of hood thugs compared to the maybe 20-30% of normal black people

>>2726003
I was referring to Nigerian immigrants. Dabiri is the son of two.

>>2725783
Paintings are not the end all be all. They just as often contain ideas of social and cultural ideals or are infused with concepts of spiritual forms.

For example light skin among Peul of whom show religious continuity to those paintings consider it their defining marker along with noses and hair. Even though most do not personify this ideal or rather idea of Peulness when you speak to a Peul about what one looks like you'll hear "We are lighter, our noses thin, our hair softer and longer with thin lips...." Even if no one around them embodies all or even some of those things. When you look at the ceremonial and ritualized adornment of women and men in the now sedentary but formerly nomadic peoples you see a strong tendency to wear heavy mineral compacts on faces to dramatize a yellowness or redness in their language called literally "whiteness".

Whiteness is not just phenotype, it's associations falls beyond the physical plane it includes notions of "weakness" and suseptability.

Basically you don't have the context to evaluate the work, it's not simply surface.

>>2724632
>stop panicking about it after a generation and it won't matter any more.

Niggers have been in america for how long. Still panicking
Muslims have been in europe for 2-3 generations. Panicking rising as the different culture refuses to integrate

I agree it won't matter anymore in the future. Mainly because the battlelines would have been drawn and like other animals, a victor will have arisen

>>2726003
>hood thugs compared to the maybe 20-30% of normal black people
What counts as hood thugs statistically?

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>>2726088

>>2722587
>caring about anything the "history" channel does

>>2726217
Nubians and Egyptians looked exactly the same. The nilotic populations posited as Nubians by Egyptians were periphetic peoples who were absorbed into the realm of Kush.

Sahara and East Africa is complicated.

>>2726088

Found the Afrocentric. How triggered were you when it turned out Egypt is more Nigger now then it was back in the day?

>Whether that would make Hannibal "white" is an open question. Most modern white supremacists definitely would not consider him such. But he was not Sub-Saharan African.

Hannibal almost certainly looked a lot like the average person from Tunis today. That is, he probably looked a lot like the average southern Italian or Greek, except slightly swarthier.

By that logic only Scandinavia is white. White "supremacists" mostly consider those of European heritage as white.

>>2723502
>>2726259

Forgot to quote

Why is it so hard for people to accept the fact that North Africans looked no different than the ones of old. The ancient North Africans weren't any any "whiter" than they are

>>2726259
>by that logic only Scandinavia is white
Most white supremacists(the stormfront and /pol/ ones atleast) mostly consider that. They think they're "pure" and that the ancient Romans/Greeks were Nordics. They always change the definition of who's "white" when it fits their agenda

>>2726259
Do white supremacists think Tunisians or Lebanese are white? No? Then Hannibal wouldn't be "white" to them.

>>2726262
Most people you meet online are Americans and their closest frame of reference for an invasive cultural replacement also involved a demographic replacement.

>>2726253

The joke is you're going full We Wuz.

>>2726268
Yeah, the problem is they don't consider Tunisia as having any relation to Carthage.

>>2726271
Where did this whole conquest=racemixing meme come from
>moors control a region of Spain
>dude they turned the original blonde haired/blue eyed Iberians brown lmao
>ottomans control the Balkans for years
>dude they turned the Greeks brown lmao

There's plenty of more like Persia and whatnot

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How's Hannibal portrayed in today's Tunisia?

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>>2724768
He couold pass as a Tunisian without problem. The tipical immi Moroccan (than are very varied btw,but the browniers are the ones immigrating) is way swarthier and with negroid traits, while Tunisians and a good deal of Algerian (than for some reason go full ape mode in Europe) could pass as med europeans (specially in South Italy or Andalucia).

>>2726279
Well yeah like that anon said it's because Americans are most aware of Native Americans being invaded and replaced by Europeans so they equate all invasions to that.

>>2726281
Arab influenced countries have a very weird sense of history compared to the west, mostly if it isn't Islamic ain't worth shit (with exceptions of course). Egyptians every few decades had to restraing overly zealous fucks to destroy them.

>>2726273
No you stupid Ferenj, you simply lack context as a fucking African with no connect to Egypt. Things are complicated, something you Westerners never fucking get.

>>2726088

>We Wuz Da Painters N Shieet

Such denial.

>>2726257
I am a fucking Habesha and know all to well stupid white American and European boys who don't know shit talking about complex concepts from Africa.

Stay in your lane and go on WW1 thread ferenj

http://www.tunisiancommunity.org/wordpress/?page_id=3425

>It was the avidity of the Politicians that led to the defeat of Carthage, not the failure of Hannibal.

Is this true?

>>2726308

>Being this triggered

You wuz da reel north affwecans n shieeetttttt.

>>2725035
Some Modern Berber groups have as much light hair and eyes as some SOuthern European ones

We want the kangz audience because no self respecting person watches their shit anymore.

>>2726317
Kabyle ones would have no problem fitting in Southern Europe, look at zidane for example. Majority of Berbers however don't differ in genotype/phenotype from the Arabs. It's cultural shit that's sets them apart, same thing with the Kurds and Turks. Turks always portray Kurds as being overly swarthy and hairy yet that's exactly how they look

>>2722587
Hello, Anonymous. While I support your search for truth, I couldn't help but notice you, like many of your peers, ignore an objective historical fact.
The objective historical fact that Hannibal minted coins to pay his African mercenaries, and on that coin was an elephant on one side, and a negroid looking fella on the other.
This objective historical fact, combined with the other objective historical fact that leaders tended to put their face on coins, leads to the easy speculation that at least some elements of his army thought he was negroid looking - either the people doing the minting, or the soldiers expecting to see someone looking like them on the money.

Or that he was black. Its not impossible. There is some (little, but existing) evidence to suggest it (though of course not prove it).
We don't know.

Consider...
1. He was looking black on some of his coins.
2. All of the Carthaginian generals we know of were foreigners, could be the Barca family was also.
3. He made very extensive use of Saharan and sub-Saharan troops in his armies, more than any other general of the era.
4. He and his family were exclusively land commanders and quite sea-shy, uncommon for the Carthaginians.

Now, I am not saying WE WUZ. I am not saying its likely either.
I am saying we don't know, and it looks bad when you pretend to be certain about something we can't be certain about.

>>2726325

> Majority of Berbers however don't differ in genotype/phenotype from the Arabs

That's not surprising since the Arabs you speak of actually aren't Arabians as opposed to either descendants of assimilated North Africans or foreigners who married natives.

>>2726308
Why do you say Habesha, if you are well aware the rest of the world knows these people as Abyssinian, and this is the correct English word for it?
It is confusing to 99% of people and makes readers think you are a larper.

>>2726325
Arabs were, until very, very recently, a small people. They just weren't very numerous.
The "Arab empire", all of them, were predominantly not Arab. There weren't enough Arabs to go around.

Compare to the Mongolian Empire, where Mongols probably comprised less than 1% of the total population.

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>>2726352
>1. He was looking black on some of his coins.
If you're talking about the Clanis hoard then those aren't of Hannibal.

This is how actual black people depicting themselves on coinage.

>>2726352

>tumblr

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>>2726352
This is Hannibal's father. What coin are you referring to?

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>>2726392
And this is Hannibal's brother.

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>>2726392
These ones. The problem is the images of them are hosted on retard websites like AfricaUnchained or TrueAboutEgypt and such.
They are coins from Italy dated to 203 b.c. and considering the bad craftmanship, were probably minted on the go by Hannibal's Army, and probably not to pay his Gaelic mercenaries either.
At any rate we can safely dismiss the idea that they are local Italian coins for obvious reasons.

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This is presumed to be Hannibal

>>2726403
Considering the origin of those coins is completely unknown, yet there are well preserved coins confirmed to be of Hannibal's relatives that look nothing like that, I think we can safely dismiss the idea that the image is supposed to be of Hannibal.

>>2726277
Carthage was a Phoenician colony. Modern Tunisians aren't Phoenician

>>2726417
>confirmed to be
Assumed to be. As are all coins.
We know how old they are, where they were buried, and we assume who's on them based on that, unless they literally have it written there.

And crudely done coins found in Italy, dating to Hannibal's invasion, with an elephant and an African on them... well, its not written, but it might as well have been.

>>2722609
Why don't they have the same image of Asia? Why don't they imagine the persians as chinese or samurai or some shit?

>>2726429
Because Persians aren't "Asian" in the USA.
Asian means East Asian to the average American.
Indians, Persians, Turks, these aren't "Asian".

In fact, in the USA there is belief in a "Muslim" ethnicity. So Persians are Muslim, while Chinese are Asian.
Once you visualize this "Muslim" continent, you can easily see where Americans are coming from (other than bad education).

>>2726420
yes, the phoenicians picked up their suit cases and all went back to the levant so autists like you can have a simpler understanding of history

>>2726310
Yes, in part. While the Carthaginians were certainly not opposed to go to a war with Rome, they weren't exactly against it either. They wanted to avenge their defeat in the FPW, but they were still not ready enough considering that most of their wealth now came from Spain and those Spanish territories were newly conquered and didn't have much loyalty to Carthage. That's the main reason why Scipio was able to turn them against Carthage while Hannibal wasn't able to do the same with the allies of Rome even with his more impressive victories. The story goes that Quntius Fabius went to Carthage to demand the surrender of Hannibal after Hannibal captured Saguntum, an ally of Rome, and this is how it goes:
“Here we bring you peace and war; which do you choose?” “Give us either,” was the reply. “Then I offer you war,” said Fabius. “And this we accept,”

The problem was that even though the Carthaginian senate hated Rome, they didn't exactly trust the Barca's, in fact, they were fearful of them. The Barca's were getting too powerful and their new lands in Spain were like their own private. So you had people like Hanno the Great who constantly undermined them. "Oh, the Barca's hate Rome and want to go to war with them? Well, I don't, In fact I want to be friends with Rome". So he did his utmost to constantly undermine them, both Hannibal and his father before him (the Barca's were mostly situated in Spain while Hanno was in the capital). So the Carthaginians were divided into two factions - the ones who wanted war with Rome and the ones who didn't. This led to disunity in Carthage's society. So, in whole, Carthage decided to sit on the sidelines and watch the Barca's wage their private war with Rome and decide what to do depending on where the wind blows.

The problem is that Rome knew that the Punic wars were fights to the death, Carthage didn't. The Romans were united, the Carthaginians were not. That's what cost them and that's why they lost.

>>2726433
Exactly my point

Why are the "muslim race" of north africa nignogs to them but they same dudes in asia are not

i guess they don't consider north africa as middle eastern, and west asia as asian

i don't know they have a strange view of the world

>>2726434
Retard

>>2726434
No, the "Phoenicians" were utterly destroyed by Rome after the Third Punic War and by the end of the Carthaginian siege neither the land, nor the people survived. Only 45,000 Carthaginians survived and most of them were sent back to Rome as slaves.

The modern day Tunisians are Arabs who inhabit the territory that Carthage once inhabited. That's the only connection they have.

>>2726435
>While the Carthaginians were certainly not opposed to go to a war with Rome, they weren't exactly against it either.

Revise this sentence, it doesn't make sense.
And from reading about the Punic Wars, I pretty much come out thinking it was the Spanish Colony that declared war on its own, without permission or desire from the North African colony.
They just sort of went on with it, because its not like they have a choice, right?

So Hannibal, a rogue element, declares war on his own, and later isn't even allowed to enter the city to rest when he comes back to defend it. He made camp separately, some distance from the city, fearing assassination. He even posted guards to protect from attack from Carthage, potentially resulting in the failure to react to the night attack that came.

>>2726444
indeed you are

>>2726446
cathage wasn't the only phoenician/cartaginian colony you know

also carthage itself was rebuilt and became a thriving city after it's "destruction"

>>2726453
Yes, but not a Carthaginian city though, a Roman one, with Romans inhabiting it.

>>2726442
>Why are the "muslim race" of north africa nignogs to them but they same dudes in asia are not

The idea is that once upon a time, the North Africans were part of the "African race", but then the "Muslim race" invaded them with Jihad, which prompted the crusades from the "Western race".
So the "African race" was killed off and replaced in North Africa, now inhabited by the "Muslim race".

Similar views are held about Anatolia.

>>2726453
Yes, it was REBUILT BY ROMANS, you pathetic retard, the original citizens (pure blooded phoenicians) were all killed or deported as slaves

>>2726453
Carthage was "rebuilt" in a different location, by romans, as a colony.

>>2726456
>>2726459
Even if that was the case(wasn't), Carthage wasn't the only Phoenician city in Tunisia

I don't know how this fairy tale works out in your minds, but large populations didn't get replaced just like that

>>2726449
No, Carthage wasn't opposed to a war with Rome, they just thought it was too early. Hannibal kind of forced their hand with attacking Saguntum, but the Carthaginians certainly didn't back down to the Romans and they backed Hannibal.

Hannibal certainly had a great deal of freedom in doing things the way he wanted because, as I said, Spain was Barca's lands, but he nevertheless answered to Carthage.

>So Hannibal, a rogue element, declares war on his own, and later isn't even allowed to enter the city to rest when he comes back to defend i
I don't know where you get that second part from. Hannibal was recalled by Carthage. He was allowed to enter the city and the Carthaginians broke the peace process after Hannibal's arrival, giving him comand of the newly formed African levy (soldiers who haven't seen a battle in their entire life).

The Carthaginians NEVER went there to stop Hannibal, they just didn't help me. Only after their existence was threatened (when Scipio went out with an army to Africa) did they provide him with troops and their support.

>>2726470
You are retarded

The Phoenicians came in small numbers, most colonies were oopulated by Berbers, except for Carthage which was their big city, that's why modern Sicilians, Sardinians and Andalusians have almost 0 Phoenician blood despite having hosted half a dozen Phoenician colonies each, the same goes for Tunisia

>>2726477
When people talk about "blood" in that sense I can't help but dismiss their arguments.

>>2726470
Some Punics survived, true, but they mostly left the lands or were deported elsewhere. There was not a single trace of Carthaginian culture left after the Third Punic War. The only thing that was left in modern day Tunisia's lands were Romans and Berbers.

>>2726477
>have almost 0 Phoenician blood
really? did you measure it?

>>2726480
>There was not a single trace of Carthaginian culture left after the Third Punic War
That's probably true, the phoenician colonies were probably completely romanized

>>2726480
>here was not a single trace of Carthaginian culture left after the Third Punic War.

Sardinians still wrote in Phoenician in the 2nd century AD, I guess the same goes for Tunisians

>>2726425

Your not fooling us here, Shaniqua.

>>2722711

>>2726498
>Shaniqua
No, anon is definitely fooling everyone here.

>>2726498
What does your modern art painting have to do with ancient coins?

>>2726491
I probably should have worded myself better. Of course the Phoenician culture wasn't entirely eradicated considering that even a Roman Emperor had Punic ancestry in him (Septimius Severus). However the Carthaginians themselves were eradicated completely. The Punic culture may have prevailed, but the culture alone isn't something that preserves an ethnicity. And even then the Punic culture was not long after forgotten.

>>2723502

According to a study, the modern human that's the closest genetically to ancient phoenicians is a specific individual living in portugal, southwest europe.

>>2726544
Its decided then, phoenicians aren't white.

>>2726556

Hey pol.

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>Interestingly, our analysis showed that Ariche's mitochondrial genetic make-up most closely matches that of the sequence of a particular modern day individual from Portugal," Professor Matisoo-Smith says

https://phys.org/news/2016-05-ancient-dna-phoenician-carthage-european.html

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>>2726564

>modern europeans have more to do with ancient north africans than modern north africans

you cannot make this shit up

>>2726564

The Moors (who weren't Niggers).

>>2726566
>>2726564

>WE

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>>2726564

So it's decided then.
Phoenicians from the carthage empire looked like this.

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>>2726564
>links his MATERNAL ancestry to locations somewhere on the North Mediterranean coast, most probably on the Iberian Peninsula.

PHOENICIAN'D

>>2726564
>one sample

Wow, youdo know Phoenicians had colonies in Iberiatoo, right? could have just been an Iberian Merchantin Carthage

>>2726594
Actually you can easily argue that the majority of the population of "Carthage", as in the union of the Phoenician colonies, was in Iberia at one point.
Its just better land to support high population than the rest of their territory.

>>2726574
It makes sense, he is too white to be Portuguese

>>2726595
They probably had a relatively high population in Iberia compared to the rest of their colonies, however the core of their population was surely in Carthage itself.

>>2726564
t. Alberto Barbosa

>>2726595
What the fuck am I reading?

>>2726605
Not really

>>2726595
North africa at those times was a bread basquet with top tier farmlands only surpassed be Sicilia and Egypt m8.

>>2726622
The only "bread basket" was the Nile delta.
Carthage didn't own that.

>>2726613
Yes, really. You have any proof of the things you're saying?

>>2723500
Nowadays everything is political conditioning lad

>>2724632
Shills ?
In MY /his/ ?

It's more likely than you think

>>2726284
>tfw no tunisian waifu

>>2726638
You need to bring proof first

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History channel was a mistake

Is there any civilization Niggers haven't tried to claim?

>>2727326
China?

>>2726513

Much of North Africa stayed Punic for some time after the fall of Carthage - as late as Augustine people were calling themselves Carthaginian and speaking Punic. Keep in mind that while Carthage itself was sacked and depopulated, the countryside and other cities (including Utica) survived and remained Punic in language, culture, and heritage.

>>2726601

>t.pol

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Reminder that the Moors were largely not Niggers.

>>2729137

That was done to troll Mr. Kangz over here >>2726305
>>2726253
>>2726308

>>2729201
Tbh you're just mad because you clearly are the fool that pretends to be African on here.

Until you can discount the genetic, archeological and historical records it's not a matter of "kangz". Also stay out of the Ethiopian topics, your annoying and transparent in your LARPing.

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>>2727388
Hate to disappoint you anon, but a few we wuz kangz actually believe chinese were originally black

http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/China_2.htm

I mean, look at this terracota soldier, doesn't he look like a KANG to you ?

>>2729243
Eurocentrics claim the same things negrocentrics claim.

>>2729250
I'm aware of them too, I also saw those /pol/ threads cherrypicking blonde people in central asia as evidence on the existance of the legendary aryans who built modern civilization. We should point and laugh at both of them. They're equally ridiculous and should be scrutinized for their beliefs and their so called "evidence".

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>>2727410
Indeed. 3rd century Roman Emperor Severus was even noted for his heavy accent. Punic was his mother tongue.

Anyway, pre-modern civilizations had upwards of 90% of the population living in the countryside anyway, so destroying the city of Carthage itself wouldn't really change the demographics of the region that much.

>>2729228

Keep pretending North Africa and Carthage were filled with Niggers despite despite depictions by neighbors like Egyptians and the lack of Basketball admixture.

>>2729243

Niggers have contributed little to actual civilization. They're unwarranted self-esteem leads them to We Wuz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxRAwVKW6MI

>>2726564
U5 exists both in North Africa and Europe but his specific subclade seems more European-specific, though it has been found even in Mesolithic Iberia. Some crossover isn't unheard of (African mtDNA has been found in Neolithic Iberia too) so his mother might have been either locally North African or Iberian. Either way it seems that his mother was probably not imported from the Phoenician homeland in the Levant but came from Carthaginian territory in the West.

>>2729268
That's not entirely wrong though. Those Central Asians are the descendants of ancient steppe populations and later Turko-Mongols expanding from the East. They got their sometimes light hair and eyes from their 'western' steppe ancestors.

>>2729326
Type into Google

Babu Tanamak, a people noted for being once black and slowly becoming white with time. The noted Traveller stated it was because they were in the north away from the heat of the Sahara but in all likelihood it was nothing assimilation.

The Romans mention two additional groups of many

Leucaethiopes those who adopted the ways of local black populations but we're white, showing a process that was repeated later in history by Khaldan of assimilating peoples of lighter complexion

And

Gaetulians and Melano-Gaetulians a people bordering the Garamante and highland/montane aethiopians.

Yes North Africa was noted for some two thousand years to be blacker than you want to admit. It's not a matter of "kangz" it's taking note to history and also having a deep knowledge of the Neolithic Subpluvial and various Aqualithic periods.

So yeah, enjoy that "Arab" North African myth

>>2730113

>Afrocentric

Yeah, North Africa only had Niggers in it until Whites invaded in written history. Like Egypt.

I already know Afrocentric garbage isn't taken seriously in the adacemic community relevant here.

>>2730113

You failed to show any of them were majority West Negro.

Also:

>Google

Stop trying to lure/entice posters to Kangz.com (or whatever it's called).

>>2724787
>Black Americans are 25% white on average but they don't all look like they have obviously white heritage
They really do when you compare them to unmixed bantu

>>2729342
>leads them to We Wuz
What makes you believe most of them believe in this?

>>2729440
I like how by the time they get to flying pyramids the city has turned into a barren desert.

>>2727326
>Niggers
You mean afrocentrists?

>>2730181
The history of North Africa is one of complex migrations to and from the south, a Mesolithic migration from the East, isolation and two migrations from the south and east at the time of the Neolithic sure pluvial.

If you take the time to read both recent genetic and archeological remains you'll see a layered past because guess what? The Sahara is not old.
>>2730201
I don't have to show the majority or anything, I showed that the regions I mentioned were black and if you took the time to read sources some of which are about two hundred year old translations you'd be aware that the mentioned Melano-Gaetulians were also in Carthage along with Nigritae and Garamante in military.

Beyond that we know that the oldest markers found in Tunisia within the confines of Ancient Carthage is an L haplogroup branch unique to the region that originates in East Africa originally.

The funny thing about this is you're so reactive to the evidence both old and new that you're basically Kangz for a past that was not as simple and beige as you wish it were.

Good luck with your baggage, African genetics and migration are complex and multilayered. Ferenji with ferenji though.

>>2730228

>migration

There was also migration from Eurasia. Hence the non-Nigger North Africans.

The Nigger one don't have a special claim to North Africa. Neither do the Honkeys.

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>it's a "settled population of millions of people gets replaced by a few disparate immigrations of a few thousand" episode
I hate Americans. Not every invasion is like Europeans coming to the Americas.

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Remember the Guanches and how Whitey they are.

>>2730267
Do you actually even know the migration, genetic and phenotypical reality of the people you are talking about? Because the North African and Ethio-Somali populations derive from a similar rooted back migration.

>The older occupants have craniofacial dimensions that demonstrate similarities with mid-Holocene occupants of the southern Sahara and Late Pleistocene to early Holocene inhabitants of the Maghreb

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0002995

That is to say the ancient populations that arose have a distinct phenotypical variation aligning with Gobero-E the people whose reconstruction I'm about to show you

http://www.staabstudios.com/images/arch_8.jpg

Which aligns with known research regarding genetics showing the oldest genetic markers of North Africa descending from L3 in East Africa

You're clearly talking about something you have no knowledge on and I think it's a waste of your time to act as if you know better on topics you can't fathom

>>2730296

And now you're denying the West Eurasian presence in North Africa from at least the Neolithic. What? Did evul Whitey chase out all the Niggers? Or are you pretending Niggerz wuz d reel euros?

>>2730322
Did you not read

>early Holocene

Stop being so triggered you special snowflake.

>>2730296

WE

>>2730228
Why does ancient egyptian art routinely portray Libyans (North Africans) as fair then? I think that there probably was always a black/dark skinned presence but I the majority of NA has more or less been in it's current state for a long time

>>2730341
Egyptian art is not literal. It's symbolic. I stated that above.

The men are not all dark and the women all light just because the art declares it so. Just as most Nubians were not Nilotic and their own depictions and remains align with not Egyptian remains. It's the idea and ideals and associations to colors. It's maintaining difference in populations within the same range of the continuum.

It's like how Japanese, Korean and Chinese depict one another.

The archeological evidence shows there were shifts in populations and genetics today shows progressive Eurasians ancestry over the last few thousand years but that process does not negate a black past nor does it show a quick sudden death as my other posts have shown.

>>2730296
>Ethio-Somali
Oh are you the guy who disagrees with anthromadness? If so, honestly the finer points over this pop gen stuff goes over my head but I trust his stuff . I couldn't find any of the bad stuff online you were saying about him.

>>2730341

He'll try to claim they're Greeks or Phoenicians despite the earliest depictions getting made before either had a significant presence in North Africa.

>>2730350

>Egyptian art doesn't count cause I say so.

>>2730353
You simply trust his stuff because you don't agree with the continuity shown in archeological remains. You can't even explain or go in depth as to how his work is logical or the plosone is incorrect.

>>2730361
The coloration is symbolic. Do you believe all the women were milky white and the men red literally?

>>2730362

You're an Afrocentric. It's not like you've demonstrated your garbage is the accepted claim.

>>2730366
I have backed it up with reconstructions, genetics, cranio-metrical continuity and written sources from around 2kya and the middle ages.

>>2730365

Go take a look at modern Egyptians VS modern Maghrebis. Unless you cherrypick then you'll notice Egyptians are significantly darker.

>>2730350
I mean I think the symbolism explanation works to an extent. I don't think that every single Libyan looked as the Egyptians portrayed them but they're still pretty telling. I think the egyptian self image is a pretty accurate indicator of how they looked on average or how the average upper egyptian looks today. I honestly haven't looked through everything you've laid out here yet though, I'll check it out in the morning

>>2730372

>genetics

Genetics don't show North Africans grouping with Subsaharans.

Anyway:

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397

> this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago (ya), prior to the Holocene

Try to stick more recent science.

>>2730365
I think that the average was probably red, similar to upper Egyptians today. Fair skin was probably the feminine ideal and probably more common in lower egypt; like in modern day Copts.

>>2730374
The composition of North Africans is reflective of a series of longstanding and recognized migrations. The continuity of North Africans from the Late Pleistocene to the early Neolithic aligns with the reconstructions mentioned.

That is fact, the degrees of admixture are a result of gradual migrations of later Eurasian which were not distributed evenly by time and place.
>>2730387
The science of North African genetics is sound and as I stated is one of back-migrating here and autochthonous populations.

Ethio-Somali peoples are a part of that same back migration and those people, that is my people are black point blank.

> This “Maghrebi” IAC has been recovered in previous studies of North African populations and is hypothesized to represent a late Pleistocene migration of non-African ancestors back into Africa


This is the basis of my argument
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1004393
>>2730389
That ideal is the symbolism, the Copts are not some vacuum packed population and are the result of absorbed waves of people throughout the last 6kys of Eygptian history. They are no more or less Egyptian than modern Upper Egyptians but that was never my argument. I am not talking about contemporary peoples, I am talking about the populations that arose in ancient North Africa and Egypt.

>>2730362
Yeah I'm just a layman, no argument there. I'm merely saying that based on his reputation, and my observations of his lack of any agenda, I have no reason to distrust him. Maybe when I delve deeper, I will change my mind.

>>2730399

The migrants from Eurasia weren't Negroid. Go be an Afrocentric elsewhere.

>>2730425
Negroid is not a genetic cluster. Black is not Negroid, I am black even though I am not of a phenotype similar to Igbo.

>>2730400
http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/02/the-east-african-cluster.html?m=1

He recognizes the Ethio-Somali cluster, my issue is he has hesitations because he was hell-bent on showing us as Eurasian-Nilotics for so many years

>>2730430

You sound butthurt about being a mongrel.

>>2730432
Except genetics is on my side and we aren't :)

>>2730430

>Negroid is not a genetic cluster

Okay. The migrants from Eurasia weren't Black. Keep going Afrocentric.

>>2730437
But they are as Somali and Ethiopians today being mostly ethio-somali are considered black as well.

The argument I've been making isn't that we are "Negroid", that's obsolete as is "Caucasoid" I am showing a African genetic cluster showing black people as seen in cranio-metrical results that unlike old theories is not the result of simple admixture events.

Cry in the corner anon., You've got nothing else to add that's backed with new data

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>>2730433

>We Wuz Da Pure Afwecans N Shieeettt

http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/7/12/3484.full

>>2730455
>Signals are very strong in certain genes, persisting across Sahel, probably indicating that the selection event occurred in the ancestral African population, before the main Pleistocene migrations that established the bulk of the Sahelian genetic landscape

This is talking about the Nilo-Saharan component
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep09996

So you realize this study is basically saying that before the Pleistocene there were pre existing populations that were absorbed by the back migrating North African and Ethio-Somali populations and that as the studies noted the supposed Eurasians ancestry is in fact there own right?

Because this is only adding credence to what I've been saying and doesn't make the reconstructions or East Africans any less black than they or we really are.

Secondly I'm not talking about purity because purity is illusionary. I, other East Africans and Ancient North Africans were still black :)

>>2730446
But weren't they west eurasian like the guy says? A component that peaks in saudis, yemen jews, etc..

>>2730474
The Yemeni and Saudi peaks are related to the fact that before Arab speaking and South Arabian speaking people migrated South Arabia Felix was Cushitic as I stated far above.

If you take a moment to read on the languages and people such as Mehri, Socotra and others you'll note the recognized ancient Cushitic linguistic and genetic substrate that was absorbed by semiticizing speaking peoples probably from the Levant area.

The people with the highest degree of Ethio-somali ancestry are Somali, take them for reference.

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>>2730446

> But they are as Somali and Ethiopians today being mostly ethio-somali are considered black as well.

Don't give a fuck.

>blub blub we wuz blub blub

The Natufians weren't Niggers:

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/06/16/059311

> Craniometric analyses have suggested that the Natufians may have migrated from north or sub-Saharan Africa, a result that finds some support from Y chromosome analysis which shows that the Natufians and successor Levantine Neolithic populations carried haplogroup E, of likely ultimate African origin, which has not been detected in other ancient males from West Eurasia (Supplementary Information, section 6). However, no affinity of Natufians to sub-Saharan Africans is evident in our genome-wide analysis, as present-day sub-Saharan Africans do not share more alleles with Natufians than with other ancient Eurasians (Extended Data Table 1).

Egyptians have 20% more Nigger admixture now:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/03/modern-day-egyptians-20-more-sub.html?m=1

More on you being a mongrel:

https://arxiv.org/ct?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdx.doi.org%2F10%252E1073%2Fpnas%252E1313787111&v=954e97ba

https://elifesciences.org/content/5/e15266

Bonus:

http://www.nature.com/articles/srep25501#abstract

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2017/01/ancient-aboriginal-dna-from-el-hierro.html?m=1

Lay off the We Wuzzing and maybe you could make Africa Great Again.

>>2730212
WEST AFRICANS AREN'T FUCKING BANTU REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


Seriously though, stop calling them Bantu. That's like calling an Anatolian who currently lives in Turkey the same race as some slant eyed Turk in Uzbekistan. Bantus came from West Africa (specifically Southeastern Nigeria), but not all Africans who aren't Northern, Horners, Khoisan, Pygmies, Malagasy, or Nilo-Saharans are Bantu. Bantus today are their own ethno-linguistic population that has many different ethnic groups. A Zulu or mixed with San Xhosa from South Africa aren't that related to the Fula or Yoruba people. I hope to God that you aren't some dumbass Ethiopian spouting this shit.

>>2730556
The plosone data shows definitively that the supposed Eurasians ancestry for the most part is incorrectly assigned.

Please show recent data that counters the scientific report or else you are just spamming.

Haven't said anything about Natufian, though I will say the cranio-metrical results of Gobero-E and Ancient North Africans is also backed by genetics shows a localized indigenous populations L.

and the back-migration link you posted from Nature.org is something I've posted in order to prove continuity but thanks for posting to show even in your rebuttal just how sound new information is.

What's it like to be owned at every turn? Especially considering that I know for a fact you haven't read these articles while I've poured hundreds of hours in them?

>>2730557
That isn't me but I find it hilarious that you're upset that this Ethiopian is owning you and your half ass "research"

I'd also say that the very notion of Bantu continuity is still up for debate amongst archeo-linguists such as Blench. But I guess you wouldn't know because you do it FOR FREE

>>2730576
What are you talking about?

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/12/africans-americans-mostly-west-african-but-some-mostly-european/

https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/gb-2009-10-12-r141

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_peoples

African Americans have less Bantu ancestry than European ancestry on average. It's not bullshit, it's a fact. Look at where West Africa is. Black Americans/Caribbeans/Hispanics are overwhelmingly West African, though the further south you go the more Bantu heritage pops up (for example, Brazilians tend to have a decent amount of Angolan ancestry). Calling West Africans Bantu is like calling North Indians Iranian or even further down the line, ancient Ukrainian or Central Asian via the Yamna people . Do you get what I'm saying now? They're different ethnic groups who come from an older origin.

As for the Ethiopian poster who sometimes pops up in African threads (I doubt it's the same one in this thread), he's either a false flagging person larping as one or an idiot who thinks that the Bantus in his area are basically the exact same people as Nigerians, they just speak a different tongue. They aren't even the same Bantu people from South Africa.

>>2730643
I am not stating that West Africans are all Bantu, I'm stating Bantu is a contentious unified Supra-linguistic grouping. Like Nilo-Saharan or Khoisan which have been entirely dismissed.

>>2730643
Also I'm the Im the only Ethiopian on 4chan I think other than a mixed Mexican Ethiopian American who was teaching g English in Central Asia.

At the very least I'm the only Beta Israeli the rest of /afri/ are all Somali or Sudanese.

>>2730665
>>2730669
Wouldn't it make more sense to call it Niger-Congo than Bantu? And like I said, either he was false flagging and was actually non-African or he's just an idiot or even racist.

I am looking into Blench's work though, thanks for the name.

>>2730669
>>2730680
Oh and one more question: How do you feel about the Black Americans who claim that not only are you Beta Israelis not Jews, but that they're the real Israelites? I think they're fucking stupid personally, and I hate that one of my favorite artists (guess who) came out as one thanks to his dumb cousin.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hebrew_Israelites

>>2730680
No you fool, I am the Habesha on here now whose been posting the genetics and such, there is another one claiming to be Habesha way up earlier but he normally stays in the Ethiopia threads where he wants for Amhara ethno-nationalist b.s. that I always argue with but I've been on here consistently.

Not a problem. Blench is great, he discovered Bangi Me.

>>2730683
African Hebrew Israelites in Dimona are fine, Black Hebrew Israelites are what I call "reachers". As you can tell from my earlier posts I am a proponent and advocate of the Aqualithic periods, there are certain things that connect West Africans to Northeast Africa in myth and rite such as circumcision but they aren't Jews or Hebrew or Middle Eastern.

I can say they are a cult, a woman came up to me today because I was walking around in "garb" and she though I was one of them. When I clarified she talked about her son being BHI and was really distraught, it's a cult that preys on those who do not listen to new information, want to feel a part of something. The black equivalent to Stormfagesque Christian Identity Churches

>>2730699
Their influence is slowly growing on Black America, starting next decade I predict that they will be as well known as the Nation of Islam/Five Percenters were in the 1980s and 1990s. The major difference is that they're trying to get Native Americans and Hispanics of all races (it's funny and sad to see a white guy call another white guy a white devil when the only difference between him and the other is language) to join their cult. It specifically preys on people who have low self-esteem, and blame white people for their problems like how white people blame Jews.

I had a conversation with one of them recently, and they said that Bob Marley, a half Syrian Jew, half Black Jamaican, isn't even remotely an "Israelite". Now I know that Judaism is maternal and all, but he's still more Jewish than 99% of those people.

>>2730721
It stems from the need to associate greatness to monuments and things. The entire worlds dominate ethnic groups believe a people's worth comes from big things, grand works, statues etc.... But honestly I find those things marks of highly stratified societies where those things were not for the benefit of every person.

It's why I don't care for the WHY COME AFRICANS DINDU NUFFIN LOL threads. No one takes the time to see civilization outside of the grandiose nor recognize the divergent histories that make us all us and the history of our ancestors.

It also stems from a lack of affirming education. People aren't talking folkways, traditions, societies that develop in conjunction with the limitations of the lands of their own. People claim things because they feel as though they've been lied to about what they have which is real in a way.

We are dealing with, what? four centuries of backlash in the West of whites telling a group they are nothing and did nothing.

The basis of BHI rhetoric is rooted in Physical Anthropology of Coon and other white Late 19th and early 20th century racialists. BHI just subvert the work made "against" them by comparing everyone to "the forest negro".

That's why I don't call it Afrocentricism (which is actually not a bad or discredited word in academia) I call it what it is, negrocentricism because it uses European definitions of what a "real" "normative" "archetypal" African is. It's rooting Pro-west Africaness within pro-white "tools" not meant for that purpose so to speak.

>>2730493
But only modern south arabian languages have cushitic substatum; not old south arabian languages that are Semitic which is consistent with ancient Semitic presence . And what do you think of this concerning mehris?

>http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2016/05/mehris-are-fully-eurasian.html?m=1

Btw I'm the curious Habesha-American, don't confuse me with the trolls

>>2730278

I hate you, whatever you are

>>2731182
>Mahra governate share a very high level of ancestry (~85%) with a single Near Eastern component

I'd want clarification of this component using the plosone paper's ethio-somali, or other analyzers that utilize Red Sea Admixture component.

It still looks like this study uses Yoruba as the African Admixture indicator.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0047765

Neanderthal Admixture despite recent waves of Eurasians ancestry is still higher in North Africa.

>>2730569
You dont owned anyone, you are just an afrocentrist, your claims are bullshit, you post "scientific" (kek) shit that doesnt prove that north africans were blacks.

>>2732064
Except i have and my arguments are watertight given the continuity of phenotype from late pleistocene to early Neolithic, genetics and reconstructions along with remains, art and accounts from the times of Romans forward.

Prove it all wrong and we can go from there.