I'm part of a group presentation on Pearl Harbor for history

>>2720887
You should specifically mention the oil embargo, and its immediate provocation, the Japanese actions in French Indo-China.

I would also point out that the only known source of oil that Japan really had close access too was what's now Indonesia, and how that was a Dutch colony at the time, and there were significant worries that invading the DEI would necessarily lead to war with the U.S. At least explaining history to people on occasion, I often get the question asked why the Japanese thought attacking Hawaii would help them get things like oil and rubber.

You also might want to mention a very brief overview of mahanian theory, why Japan bought into it, and how they thought the war would be a short one, which is why they gambled so hard on a long range strike to knock out ships like they did.

>>2720887
Oil embargo, and that the Japanese couldn't get enough oil without invading the DEI (IIRC Burma had some but not enough, weren't willing to go after Russia after Zhukov kicked their face in at Khalkyn Gol). Invading the DEI required either going completely around the Philippines (leaving a bunch of American submarines based right in the middle of your only oil lifeline) or invade them too.

Don't forget the need to score decisive victories early to drive the Americans to the negotiating table, which is why they went for Pearl and later Midway. Going on a 'muh kantai kessen' tangent might be useful, but probably isn't necessary.

>>2720887
You should probably give brief mention to how Japan pretty much immediately dropped their plan for a (likely successful) invasion of the Soviet Far East after the oil embargo was announced, because seizing the DEI was given top priority.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantokuen#Support_for_KANTOKUEN_fades

>>2721206
>You should probably give brief mention to how Japan pretty much immediately dropped their plan for a (likely successful) invasion of the Soviet Far East
>Attack Soviets in 1938.
>Lose
>Soviet defenses are even heavier in the winter of 1941
>Think this will go better.

>>2721213
Soviets were in the middle of getting btfo in winter of 1941. Defenses were weaker because divisions were pulled to the European theater.

Nanjing is Korean lies.

>>2721213
They didn't attack the Soviets in 1938 (did you mean to say 1939?). What happened was that one was a local commander of a newly-formed garrison division and its attached units acted initiated a border battle on his own initiative, and was consequently swamped by 1/4 of all of the mechanized Soviet forces in Asia. Despite this, his under-equipped units still inflicted far more casualties than they took. In Kantokuen, the Japanese would actually be attacking, this time with numerical and materiel parity, against the whole Soviet force, not just the best handpicked units available, on multiple axes where most of the Soviet formations would be static and easy to encircle or bypass.

Please learn some history.

>>2721228
>Soviets were in the middle of getting btfo in winter of 1941. Defenses were weaker because divisions were pulled to the European theater.
But that's wrong you retard. Yes, they pulled about 7 divisions out from the Far East command, and more from the Transbaikal command. You know what? They raised a lot more.

>>2721235
>They didn't attack the Soviets in 1938
Yeah, Khalkin Gol was the ONLY time the Japanese did shit! Battles like Lake Khasan were just mass hallucinations!
>. What happened was that one was a local commander of a newly-formed garrison division and its attached units acted initiated a border battle on his own initiative
Just like all those other times from 1936 onwards! It was totally unsupported from on high!
>Despite this, his under-equipped units still inflicted far more casualties than they took.
If you believe Japanese figures about their own losses, yes. If you think that an entire infantry division gets enveloped and eliminated, while the other forces in the area make futile attacks to try to relieve them, and still end up with only about 16,000 combat casualties, I'm not really sure what to say to you.
> In Kantokuen, the Japanese would actually be attacking, this time with numerical and materiel parity,
Where the hell are they just going to get another million or so men from? Give up in China? Disband the navy and toss all those guys rifles?
>on multiple axes
Attacking on multiple axes when there is one railroad in the region. Great idea. Are you planning on your men starving to death, or freezing to death?

> where most of the Soviet formations would be static and easy to encircle or bypass.
Yes, you're going to bypass and encircle soviet formations where they have lines of communication and you don't because of a little something called the Trans-Siberian Railroad.

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>>2720887
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Panay_incident
http://www.usspanay.org/attacked.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Moore_Allison

>>2721274
>Yeah, Khalkin Gol was the ONLY time the Japanese did shit! Battles like Lake Khasan were just mass hallucinations!

Lake Khasan was a regiment occupying a disputed territory followed by the Soviets throwing away men and tanks by the thousands

>Just like all those other times from 1936 onwards! It was totally unsupported from on high!
>>border affrays between company-sized units are the same as army group level strategic offensives

Nigga you just full retard. Also, "!" marks are not an argument outside of Reddit.

>If you believe Japanese figures about their own losses, yes

Why the fuck wouldn't you? This is not a publicity statement, these numbers were captured from their own medical records, which is about as reliable as historical documents get. It's the same reason we believe the Soviets about their losses in that battle.

> If you think that an entire infantry division gets enveloped and eliminated, while the other forces in the area make futile attacks to try to relieve them, and still end up with only about 16,000 combat casualties, I'm not really sure what to say to you.

Not an argument. Please find one, tankie.

BTW, it was 19,174 casualties according to their records. The Soviets themselves initially claimed to have inflicted some 29,000 casualties on their enemies, but this got rewritten for official histories.

>Where the hell are they just going to get another million or so men from? Give up in China? Disband the navy and toss all those guys rifles?

They don't need another million men. The plan called for an additional 2 divisions from the Home Islands, 2 from Korea, and 4 from China. Note that at historical levels where they'd abandoned the plan they already had 800,000 men there by August 1941. Again, read a damn book.

>Attacking on multiple axes when there is one railroad in the region. Great idea.

The Japanese had a similar ratio of trucks to men as the Soviets did when they attacked in August Storm. Plus horses.

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>>2720887
>Anything else I should talk about, important things I can mention?
The objective of crippling the American fleet in a surprise show of power with the hope of striking a "stay outta muh way while I island hop" deal with the US. Pearl Harbour was a show of power and a gamble that didn't work out.

>>2720887
Strike North and Strike south factions, along with a brief (lol probably not realistic) of japanese govt culture during the time.

>>2721297
>Lake Khasan was a regiment occupying a disputed territory followed by the Soviets throwing away men and tanks by the thousands
If the Japanese could move as fast as you moved those goalposts, they might have stood a chance. Let's review the record shall we >>2721235
>They didn't attack the Soviets in 1938
>THEY DIDN'T ATTACK THE SOVIETS IN 1938

>Nigga you just full retard. Also, "!" marks are not an argument outside of Reddit.
That wasn't the argument. The sarcasm was the argument, as well as the fact that these incidents were repeated and the perpetrators not facing any punishment unless they got themselves into trouble.

>Why the fuck wouldn't you? This is not a publicity statement, these numbers were captured from their own medical records, which is about as reliable as historical documents get. It's the same reason we believe the Soviets about their losses in that battle.
And yet amazingly, 6A's records don't line up with the organizational disappearance of the 23rd division. It's almost like when you have enormous numbers of people going dead, missing, or captured, they don't fuckign show up on medical records. Meanwhile, the OOB of the 23rd (Madej, W. Victor, Japanese Armed Forces Order of Battle) gives it 11,958 dead or missing, which is higher than the entire 6A recording of dead for the entire battle.

>Not an argument. Please find one, tankie.
It is, the fact that you're too stupid to understand that when a division boasting 20,000 men disappears in a few days, that they have 8,000 dead and another 8,000 wounded is a bullshit claim is not my problem. (Don't forget the losses that the 7th and the tank regiments were taking too)
>BTW, it was 19,174 casualties according to their records
Notice how I said "combat casualties"? I.e. not counting guys who went sick or were otherwise lost outside of combat? They do teach weebs to read, right?

>>2721297

>They don't need another million men. The plan called for an additional 2 divisions from the Home Islands, 2 from Korea, and 4 from China. Note that at historical levels where they'd abandoned the plan they already had 800,000 men there by August 1941.
Assuming that each of these divisions are more or less normal type Bs, with 20,000ish men each, that gives them another 160,000 troops, or a bit less than a million total, which gives them a great 2:3 numerical inferiority when they attack. Clearly the plan for a quick and decisive offensive.

>The Japanese had a similar ratio of trucks to men as the Soviets did when they attacked in August Storm. Plus horses.
And this totally irrelevant fact helps you how? Heavy lifting for land offensives were done by rail and by canal, which are not available here. You really want to haul the munitions, clothing, food, medicine, etc, some 5-800 kilometers by truck and horse? Do you just not understand that the attacker has to move further and usually faster than the defender in warfare? Or that they're moving away from their own bases of support and thus have the harder logistical job?

OP here, thanks for the help anons.