What if operation Sealion was launched in June 1941, instead

>>2711014
German air production never came close to matching the British, and that's without the heavy support the US was giving them.
Add this to the the RN which was bigger than the German navy by some magnitude, and with Gibraltar blocking French and Italian fleets from leaving the Med, I don't really see any way Sea Lion succeeds. Britain could have been starved out, perhaps.

>>2711014
>What if operation Sealion was launched in June 1941, instead of invading Soviet Union?
Well, given that the Luftwaffe was losing out to the RAF, and that the Germans had no fleet worth mentioning, nor did they have any amphibious experience, it would be a colossal clusterfuck.

>What if the germans just postponed the invasion, amd build up ships and airplanes until 1941,
They could not build either as fast as the British, so the longer you wait, the worse things get. Not to mention that it takes about 2 years to build a capital ship, so you'll be doing this with just the Scharnhorst, Gnisenau, Tirpitz, and Bismarck, assuming you can keep all of them alive. Oh, and some cruisers. Good luck fighting the RN with that.
>occupying Gibralter,
Would be helpful, but how are you going to do that? You'll have to offer Franco something he'd like better than permanent German occupation to get him to help you, and the alternative involves fighting your way across Spain; doubtless something you could do, but it would take time and it would be messy, and then leave you with another backdoor full of partisans that you need to guard.
>or luring the royal navy into the Mediterranean,
How the fuck would you do this? Why should they go into the Med at all?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion_(wargame)

>>2711039
Alright, I did not know that Britian could mass produce planes faster than Germany.

As for your questions, I do not know, I was the one asking in the first place.

I know Germany had a short expiration date, so that is not what this thread is about, more of an what if the invasion pf the ussr never happened and germany put all its eggs into england. Only to be invaded by the US.

>>2711014
You might be interested in reading this very long thread:
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=158127&sid=217bb9efd35239428a7d0529db96320f

>>2711223
Already reading this: http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/104/104-21/cmhPub_104-21.pdf

But I will add it my list.

The link I posted is why I started this thread, because to me a successful invasion of the USSR seemed more unlikely than a successful sealion, because if you look at a map of the USSR in 41 you would immediately conclude it is impossible because of their manpower ratio, land to keep retreating into, and the fact that Asian Russia was extremely industrialized.

It always works in HoI4. Just send some subs to occupy the Brit fleets.

>>2711477
Lol. That game has a clear german bias to it, and it is not accurate.

>>2711034
>Britain could have been starved out, perhaps.

Germany tried doing that in both wars, but didn't come close to succeeding because Britain's navy was just so fuckhuge.

>>2711268
>because to me a successful invasion of the USSR seemed more unlikely than a successful sealion

Goes to show how ignorant you are. Germany nearly succeeded in Russia but never had even the slightest chance of beating Britain.

I think you guys are overestimating the British a bit. Without food and supplies being brought in daily by the burgers, Britain would have been in some serious trouble. Not saying the Germans would have been successful, but it would have been a very different story nonetheless.

>>2711531
Go ahead and tell us how much food was brought in daily by the burgers, then compare that to how much food was needed. I'll wait for you to frantically google for answers then act like you were pretending to be retarded.

>>2711531
>without food and supplies

But they WERE getting food and supplies.

He's asking what the result of sealion would be if it had happened, not some hypothetical involving a blockade.

>>2711531
right but those food and supplies would have come in regardless. The Brits had the currency reserves to pay, and the Yanks wouldn't have kept their merchant fleet at home. The American navy surely helped securing the shipping lanes, but the Royal Navy was already mostly up to the task. So the supplies keep coming (maybe not as much, but not enough of a difference to turn the tide of the war) even if the US isn't in the war as a combatant.

>>2711514
>>2711539


Not entirely, it was due to the United States supplying the shit out of Britain. The United States wasn't the only reason it was starved out tho

>>2711566
right, but US not in war != US not supplying UK

>>2711539

>I'll wait for you to frantically google for answers then act like you were pretending to be retarded.

Why are you so triggered by this thread lol? OP asked a semi-interesting question about alt history, these kind of threads compose like 40% of the content on this board at any given time. Relax bud, no one is disparaging the honor or bravery of British forces, just speculating about fun "what if" scenarios.

And no, I don't know how exactly how many tons of food were brought in lol, nor do I care all that much. My only point was that while it's trendy atm to say the burgers didn't win ww2, you'd be lying to yourself if you really think things wouldn't have been way different with the US not supporting the allies.

>>2711544
and blockading and sinking US supply ships is a great way to go ahead and bring the US into the war. It's a catch 22.

There are a lot of theories on why he did that, Dr lizzie Collingham actually wrote a book on the subject in which she argues that one of the major reasons Germany made such a sudden push for the USSR's border lands was because those lands held a massive amount of farm land and would function as the "bread basket" fir the autarky driven government. The Nazi regime wanted independent food supply to sustain their citizens and army and thanks to some agricultural mishaps in Poland, they needed Ukraine to do so.

Also! In case you were actually curious, thanks to their military overhaul on farm land, Brittain would have had enough food on-island to sustain their civilians on a diet of around 2500 - 3000 calories for 160 days. Roughly. And they had a daily import of 10 to 15 merchant vessels which delivered supplies to Brittan which were majoritarily collected from the colonies around their empire.
So though they were vulnerable, they were hardly helpless.
^.^

File: 1453668085952.jpg (11KB, 400x400px) Image search: [Google]

11KB, 400x400px

>What if operation Sealion was launched in June 1941?
What if I'm the Queen of France? What if the moon is made of green cheese? What if Elvis is still alive?

>>2711014
They didn't have the ability to lunch an invasion but they have use chemical and biological warfare to severely damage and demoralize the public.

In order to knock the UK out of the war.

>>2711014
This has been discussed to death over in /k/. Sea Lion was doomed even if the Germans concentrated their focus on it.

No way could the Germans maintain supplies well enough to those troops across the channel with the backseat logistical attitudes that were quite common in their high command.

>>2711572
Not true, the US supplies many factions and nations without directly investing its self into war, if supplying is considered a defining quality of war then the US has been a participant in every major conflict since its inception...or most of them

>>2711521
Are you speaking to yourself on ignorance? Try reading what I posted, instead of lambasting without explanation. But since you are pol, and love Nazi Germany, let me explain how The success of OP Barb was more unlikely than sealion.

Germany never "almost, ah off by a hair" won against the soviets. It was not a close call because the Germans number one never took Moscow, or St. Petersberg. Even if the Germans took Moscow in winter 41, so what? Soviets move HQ to Kazan, or a central asian province. More to the point, the Sovieta would just counter attack Moscow, which occupation is already a nightmare for the offensive Germans because, logistics, lack of food, in city close quarters Partisans, and lack of manpower to stretch the huge front.

You have to be a troll. Barbarossa was fated against the Germans, more so than a 41-42 sealion.

>>2711767

You're a moron.

>>2711034
>German air production never came close to matching the British

I thought the British Isles had a problem with very low pilot manpower during the battle of Britain?

>>2711544
Right, I am asking what the outcome of sealion if it were to happen at a much later date, wherein they focused on building bombers, intercepters, fighters, landing crafts, amd capital ships, instead of tanks and divisions.

Really, I know the outcome, this is just an intellectual generator. Germans were destined to lose, I just like the what military science aspect.

>>2711780
They changed their pilot training very quickly and were getting fighter pilots to operational units rather sooner than the Germans.

>>2711778
Stop projecting. Explain your side.

>>2711780
>I thought the British Isles had a problem with very low pilot manpower during the battle of Britain?
Only because they were producing so many planes. Their were producing pilots at 2 or 3 times the rate of the germans as well

>>2711806

What were the Brits doing differently that allowed them to churn out pilots so much quicker?

>>2711823
having a ton of commonwealth (mostly canadian) and a bit of polish volunteers

>>2711823
They didnt keep sending instructors into combat units for one thing, and they rotated experienced pilots out of combat duty and into instructor roles which the germans almost never did

Other than that im not to sure, but the brits were producing combat ready pilots in less than 6 months while the germans were taking 10-12

>>2711609
Right. It is pretty common knowledge that the Nazi's invaded the USSR for their grain, because Hitler made it publicly known that he did want to starve as what happened in the first world war.

The real fire behind the invasion, however, was not because of food but because of ideological.

Hitler saw the Soviets as a threat, even though they had no intentions on Germany.

Moreover, he saw them as "subhumans" and wanted to exterminate them. This is the real reason for the invasion lf the USSR. As to why Hitler needed it done in 41, his logic was that many in Ukraine Belarus amd the Baltics dissented against the soviets. The purges where another sign to invade, because it ment weak military, as evident in the winter war. The suprise factor, of stabbing the USSR in the back, effected the Soviets greatly, but never to a point of breaking. The USSR was destined to win that war.

>>2711521
>>2711767
>>2711778
>>2711802

I am still waiting. Where is your explanation? Seems to me that you junped the gun.

>>2711268

>>2711780
the opposite - a downed British pilot could easily return to combat the same day, while a downed German pilot would likely be captured as a PoW for the rest of the war.

>>2711014