/his/'s thoughts on the American Civil War?

>>2710344
Sad that it happened, kind of wish the Confederates won, but it is what it is. I don't think they should be taking down monuments either.

Confederates had a right to win

>>2710344
The south forever damaged the republic with there absurd withdrawing from the union over losing an election to a guy who wasn't even going to abolish slavery.

They were on shaky constitutional grounds at best, but aside from that they used poor judgement and they were incredibly short sighted.

>>2710871
Not a single ballot in the South had Lincoln on it. It pretty much sent the message that their vote wouldn't matter anymore in the current political system of the era. Why be a part of something where you'll forever be the constant minority?

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>>2710344
The South was fighting against the tyranny of the North. Many good soldiers lost their loves to protect their home and family.

Only Americans care about that shitty irrelevant war.

If it hadn't happened it would have been even more lulzworthy today having a separate south US completely backwards with feudal style plantations being third world tier, and white southerners trying to border fence to the north because no slaves and due to sanctions.

>>2710344
Lee is the most overrated general in American history, the Confederacy is objectively one of the most evil regimes to ever exist, and the rebellion as a whole is one of the biggest displays of autism in modern history, rivaled only by the Great German Chimpout (mk. II). The South has always been the spoiled brat of the nation.

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>>2710344
Its all very, very, very sad. I wish it never happened. I can't condemn the people who carried it out (my ancestors are included in this), but I can't say they were in the right either. Everyone is to blame for it, really. It grew from a collective sense of alienation, which fed indignation until people that should have been seen as brothers were as aliens. A true tragedy.

>>2710884
assuming the results of one election will be repeated indefinitely is pretty stupid

>>2710344
Wrong side won again, history is full of wrong sides winning wars.

A failure to come to a compromise lead to pointless slaughter and pain for the years to come.

>>2710840
>petulant, amoral separatists start war
>ill-prepared for said war
>fucked by blunders of ostensibly superior commanders
>"had a right to win"

Do tell.

>>2710884
Because Southern whites are fucking retarded. Slaves shouldn't have even been allowed to be counted as 3/5 of a vote. After all, why should property be enfranchised?

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>>2710828
>>2710840

>>2710897
>the south fought against northern tyranny for their right to enslave millions of people

>>2710954
>, the Confederacy is objectively one of the most evil regimes to ever exist
also one of the most hypocritical

>>2711374
He should have burned more

>>2711244
>amoral
I don't think you know what "amoral" means

>>2711395
absolutely

this kind of thinking >>2711225 should not exist

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>>2710344
The North will raze again

>>2711374

Great man, and a great tank

>>2711398
well, is it moral to enslave people?

>>2711244
I think you mean "immoral" not "amoral".

>>2710344
America is probably the only country that thinks seceding rebels are good bois who dindunuffin wrong, with formerly rebel states celebrating their treasonous failed attempt.

I think it's odd how it seems there are people that have mentally convinced themselves that they live in this time

>>2711420

they were simply fellow Americans, holding fast to their ideals and sense of duty, we are not, and should not be, vengeful barbarians like much of the world over

>>2711381
>its a the north totally did not have slaves episode
>its a what are the black confederates episode

>>2711458
the north didn't fight a war against tyranny to keep people in chains.

>>2711467
>the north didn't fight a war against tyranny to keep people in chains.
dont know why they fucking bothered at all segregation and other stupid shit was almost as bad up north as it was down south

>>2711458

by all rights we should have done away with the practice at the constitutional convention, how happy a world that would be, a richer south, less blacks, and none of them acting entitled 150+ years after 1863

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Truly a war of northern aggression.

>>2711478
>strawman comic
>union left all the other forts but did not leave this one for some reason
i know /his/ for the most part is a shitposting board but come on dude

>>2711487
How dare they not leave their own fort.

>>2711487
Which forts did they leave and did they leave because of surrender or because the Federal government told them too?

>>2711487

that's isn't a strawman comic you absolute dingus

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>>2711487
Dude come on. Maybe if there weren't so many southern historians strolling under the magnolias of their own pride, we could have a more lucid picture of the Civil War. But we can't.

>>2711491
>>2711494
>>2711495
>>2711501
Im honestly dumbfounded.
>The war was about slavery!
>It was not about states rights!
Why fucking bother freeing the slaves if your going to treat them like shit for the next 80 fucking years?
Why fucking bother starting a war over something you faggots had well into the time of the emancipation proclamation?
Honestly dumbfounded.

>>2711516
Hmm it's almost like different people take over the hands of government after a term is expired or an election happens in a democracy.

Now that really gets my noggin' a joggin'.

>>2711516
>Why fucking bother freeing the slaves if your going to treat them like shit for the next 80 fucking years?
You seem to be looking at the decisions of 19th Century politicians with the eyeballs of a shitstick living in 2017.

Many abolitionists would be considered extremely racist today...at the very least they would be un-'woke'.

>>2711501

Unfortunately, no matter where you go in this country, you'll find that newer generations have simply managed to glean a simplistic and stupid interpretation of US history (principally relating to the civil war). I'm ashamed to consider them my own countrymen.

>>2711516
the war began because southern states succeed, and preserving the union was the main reason why the north fought

>>2711516

why are you so thick m8?

go play in front of a tram

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>>2710344

>>2711564
What with this guy.
>we gotta restore the union
>but ill burn it all down first
Was it autism?

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>>2711583
He didn't burn anything that was going to be missed desu

>>2711583

are you thick?

destroying the means to make war ends the war, enough working men had died on the field of battle

besides, the south didn't have much infrastructure to wreck in that region anyhow, and farms are easily resown

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>When your entire economy is based of having black slaves so you breed slaves so much they make up most of your population and they cant vote so you make it so that your slaves count as 3/5ths of a person so you dont get fucked in number of seats in congress and you start, and lose, a war to keep slaves

yeah no wonder some of the retards here sympathize with the CSA

>>2711583
https://pando.com/2014/11/20/the-war-nerd-why-sherman-was-right-to-burn-atlanta/


tl;dr sherman hated the war, what he did was not only necessary to end the war faster, but to cow southern pride and teach them how terrible war was.

>>2710344
Truly a tragic conflict that tore a nation apart, pitting brothers and fathers against friends and neighbors. Sad that it had to happen, but it's for the best it turned out the way it did.

I'm still blasted we didn't make Hispaniola and Cuba states.

>>2710947
>Only Americans care about that shitty irrelevant war.
Google US Civil War Foreign Involvement

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>>2711374
>burns down infrastructure causing food shortages
>tens of thousands of Union POWs and slaves die
>"b..b.but we got your plantations"

kek thanks billy

>>2711388
>secede because muh federal government and muh slaves
>invade West Virginia and East Tennessee and put them under military occupation when they vote against secession

>>2711824
States rights allow the confederacy to Violate states right in other States

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>>2711441
Then you should've allowed them to secede, except you fought to keep them within the union.

Just like every state facing a rebellion the world over.

>>2710344
Seems like a big waste.

>>2711804
>got shit done

Grant's strategy was to go full imperial guard and drown them with their dead

>>2712707
> Throughout the Civil War Grant's armies incurred approximately 154,000 casualties, while having inflicted 191,000 casualties on his opposing Confederate armies.[3]

>>2712710
talking about before people asked Lincoln to retire Grant due to his recklessness

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>>2710344
Mark Twain had it right:
The South read too much of Walter Scott's novels and thought their "valor" would get them whatever their tantrum was about.

kek

>>2711420
Well duh, their entire country is based on treachery after all.

>>2712710
Most this Confederate casualties came from the ANV surrender. Casualties =/= dead.

dumb redneck savages vs imperialists

the lesser evil won
many americans died, thats a good thing

>>2713318

No, it isn't. Read and understand the true statements contained in the Declaration.

Or even supposing that one were to allow your false statement: then against whom were the United States treacherous? Why, the single most treacherous polity ever to have existed in world history, as most people will agree.

-----

Consider the following: Lincoln actually said something close to "The World will little note, nor long remember, what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here." We initially chuckle at this sentence because the Gettysburg Address later became an extremely famous speech. And yet, no audio recording was taken, and all that we are left with are endlessly conflicting newspaper accounts and Lincoln's various drafts. The point being that /we do not know to a certainty exactly what Lincoln said when he actually spoke/. In other words, the language above (or words to like effect) were literally true.

>>2710344
a bunch of aristocratic jackasses left the union because they wanted to keep using free labor, and a bunch of bourgeois jackasses went to war with them to "preserve the union", that is, their hegemony

completely forgotten in all of this was the plight of the common man

>>2712875
Isn't that what happened in Vietnam, though?

>>2710344
It didn't kill enough subhuman americans.

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>>2710344

Based Grant is criminally underrated, as a general, as a president, and even as an author. His memoirs are the best of any U.S. president.

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>>2710344
I'm from Massachusetts and the Confederates were objectively the good guys in the war.

>>2712875
>whatever their tantrum was about
Filthy Condescending Yank scum, the Civil War was about aggregarian society versus an industrial society. The outcomes show that we would have been better off as aggrarian farmers than industrial magnates.

>>2714672

>the Civil War was about an economy based on freedom verus an economy based on slavery

Fixed it.

>>2712652
states rights also killed the confederacy

>>2714657
you really need to ACTUALLY learn about the civil war, alright?

>>2714656
he really is, but exaggerated rumors about his drinking problem, views of his as a butcher during the war, and corrupt cabinet during his presidency ruined his reputation

How long until the western, previously Mexican states rebel to join Mexico and we have Civil War II?

>>2714884
That would require Mexico not being so much poorer and shittier than the U.S. that people actively try to leave the former to come to the latter. So, never.

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>>2714884
an independent southwest is more likely, but a war for it doesn't seem likely.
you see, Mexicans(~37 mil) alone are a few decades away from outnumbering all Blacks(45 mil) in the US. California and soon New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas will/are be full of Mexicans and Chicano's.
eventually most or all of the southwest will be full of Mexicans and people of Mexican descent, at which point with race relations as cold as they've been in decades, would it not be better if they split peacefully? like Scotland or Catalonia plan to do.

>>2714925
>the US willingly giving up California and Texas, two of its most populous and productive states.
Also, race relations aren't really as bad as the media suggests, especially between Hispanic Americans and white Americans.

>>2714953
>especially between Hispanic Americans and white Americans.
better hope the prez doesn't agitate Mexicans, also it's more cultural than racial differences between the two.

>>2714656
>criminally underrated, as a general
He's regularly seen as one of the best generals of the war. McPherson is obsessed with him.

>as a president
Kek, he was a trash president. Only lefties try to spin him into some civil rights icon forgetting that his radical reconstruction FAILED. It was corrupt, incompetent, and bound to fail. He was so bad that half of his party rebelled against him.

>His memoirs are the best of any U.S. president.

Probably true

>>2714953
also

>the US willingly giving up California and Texas, two of its most populous and productive states.
the same can be said about Catalonia with Spain and Scotland with the UK.

but those Independence movements exist and a peaceful split can be possible.

did the CSA celebrate the 4th of July?

>>2714925
>Arizona
Over my dead body. Calicuckia can go though.

>>2715086
https://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange/archives/2013/06/14/hispanics-leading-minority-growth-in-az

>"An Arizona Office of Employment and Population Statistics report released in December said that at current rates of growth, the minority population will overtake whites as the majority by 2027."
you've got 10 years left.

>>2715097
Hopefully with Trump in office we will reverse the trend and white people in this state openly hate the Mexicans, unlike Californians who welcome them with open arms and pass sanctuary acts into legislation. Maricopa county is still the biggest Republican county in America.

>>2715105
>white people in this state openly hate the Mexicans

see
>>2714953
>Also, race relations aren't really as bad as the media suggests, especially between Hispanic Americans and white Americans.

and
>>2714973
>better hope the prez doesn't agitate Mexicans

>>2715120
>race relations aren't really as bad as the media suggests, especially between Hispanic Americans and white Americans
That's maybe true for California. Not for Arizona.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ups4FeSuHvY

>>2715129
Arizona is shit.

Dumb sandbox.

>>2711564
Do it again Uncle Billy!

>>2711583
>You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our Country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to Secure Peace. But you cannot have Peace and a Division of our Country. If the United States submits to a Division now it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is Eternal War. The United States does and must assert its authority, wherever it once had power; for, if it relaxes one bit to pressure, it is gone, and I believe that such is the National Feeling

>>2714657
>southern culture was distinctly american
is that why they imported the speaking pattern of british gentlemen and the customs of european aristocracy

>>2715734
This is 100% correct; his only problem was not realizing that "division" will only be reinforced by burning down instead of building up the South.

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I love my Sherman and Grant memes <3

In all seriousness, it bothers me. People were literally killing their brothers because of our inability as a nation to look at each other's view points and try to compromise. In my eyes, both were equally to blame for the tomfuckery. I'm glad the Union won, but I don't think either side can be labeled as a hero in this. If this shit happens again Imma be pissed.

>>2714596
Oh fuck off you stupid yank you're brainwashed into believing a straightforward colonial rebellion is some groundbreaking event spurred by god himself. You went against your lawful sovereign and government because they had the gall to ask you for a contribution for the support of the realm, and not only did you chimp out, you even colluded with Britain's enemies which was the only reason you won your little backwater war in the first place, and if that isn't treachery I don't know what is.

>>2711374

Why is it Yankees circlejerk to this man when even he held a very low opinion of himself?

He literally considered Grant his better in every way.

>>2717608
they were both fucking scumbags just look at their fucking faces, they know they lived a complete lie and committed unspeakable acts of horror for nothing more than coin and false bloody justice they coped terribly with it very clearly

>>2717274
>because of our inability as a nation to look at each other's view points and try to compromise
we had been compromising for decades, and i would argue that the example of slavery shows that compromise is not always superior in every situation.

>>2712652
Even better, they use the Supreme Court to violate the rights of other states as well.

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>>2714672
>The outcomes show that we would have been better off as aggrarian farmers than industrial magnates.
So Colombia tier?

>>2715075
I would assume so.

>>2717274
>le compromise memexD
>le centrist meme xDDDD
he "compromise" you're referring to in this context had been happening for ages (see: Missouri Compromise, 1850 Compromise, Kansas-Nebraska Act, Nullification, etc.). It was time to show those upstart tobacconiggers that their autistic butthurt will not be tolerated.

>>2711788
>Google US Civil War Foreign Involvement

I just did and basically got nothing.

The UK kinda supported the Confederacy since most of the British trade was with southern states yet they didn't do anything about it.

France supported the north and they didn't really do anything either.

Both sides probably thought that if they picked a side it would have been yet another Anglo/France war to add to the massive list.

Absolutely retarded

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>>2710954
Nailed it.

>>2710344
Robert E Lee was a coward.
>muh virginia
Literally surrendered all of his values and opinions because of his fucking state voting a certain way? Jesus christ what an asshole.

McClellan did nothing wrong.

>>2717608
>>2717700
I dont see how dixieboos have any right to criticize people of "unspeakable acts of horror"

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>>2718900
>McClellan did nothing wrong.

>what is the peninsula campaign

>>2711022
What choice did the average soldier on each side have?

None of the soldiers and most of the generals carry any guilt over that [or any] war

>>2711564
Do it again Uncle Billy!

>>2719814
>>what is the peninsula campaign
A minor strategic defeat after a lot of tactical victories.

>>2715645
>sandbox
Sonora Desert, 3rd most diverse ecosystem in the world.

You live in the ecological dead zone more than likely.

>>2710344
It was fought over which geographic region would assume power over the legislative branch during the early days of the industrial revolution. It was a stuggle to prove that the federal government is superior to the States. Republicans refused to allow slaves into the territories because the radical Republicans wanted political power. Simple as that. Slavery was merely the political issue that sparked the flames. Any discussion about the Civil War that doesn't mention the question of political power regarding the entrance of the new states out of the western territories is misguided.
So much bloodshed could have been prevented had the US a few wise politicians in the late 1850's and early 1860's. People around the world were figuring out that slavery was fucked up and it would have been gradually banned in the US by the 1880s. There should have been a compromise but both sides refused to come to the table and work out a plan to end the institution of slavery without starting the bloodiest war the world have ever seen.

P.S. If the euros would have been paying attention to the American Civil War they would have thought twice about starting WW I.

>>2710828
Why? Confederate win would have either Balkanized North America or put us decades behind technology by WW1.

>>2714925
Those demographics are definitely off.

>>2710884
maybe because your ballots were some of the most corrupt displays in history, so much so that their are scholars who dedicate their careers to studying how much you guys shit on everything our Constitution stood for after your failed rebellion. Because it's fair to have slaves count towards your votes without the slaves themselves actually getting to vote, because it's justified to deny voting rights to the people you have historically treated like animals for 300 years. Because it's fair to have disproportionate senate seats based on population lines drawn by plantation owners, shitting on democracy yet again by making yourselves worth hundreds of thousands of others' votes.

>muh right to own humans

get over yourselves

>>2721051
>Muh Constitution!
>Proceeds to complain about a central clauses of the Constitution

>>2717608
Is it tactical and strategic brilliance and ingenuity? No way, scorched earth is nothing new.

Does have a compelling backstory you can sympathize with? Nope, he was nothing extraordinary.

Was he a considerate commander who tried to prevent casualties as much as possible? I don't ever see that mentioned.

Did he help common people suffering from the war? Not at all.


It's literally nothing but modern day liberals and commies who wank the same way that /pol/tards do about gassing Jews.

>>2721104
a constitution designed to be flexible, with clauses written into it to allow for this flexibility to be funneled through the proper channels. When the times change, the people change, and change in the people should be represented by a change in the Constitution. The constitution changed through the proper channels and so you have no grounds to make a constitutional argument.

>>2717368

The United States did not commit treachery in the course of their Revolutionary War. Read and Understand The Truth. Read and Understand the Declaration.

When a government is fucking up, and repeatedly, and badly, as the government of the United Kingdom was in point of actual historical fact doing, then it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish such government. The reason why this is so, is because in view of the above case, such a government obviates its own purpose for existence. This is actually true, and no amount of sniggering or greentexting by anons who wholly miss the point of this true principle will obviate its truth.

"treachery" is a slave morality which poor countries who are long accustomed to their forms are obliged to speak of.

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>>2721156
>tfw Shelby County v. Holder
>tfw our new attorney General Jefferson Beauregard Session III and a 5-4 conservative court is going to rip a hole through you nigger loving "flexibility".

I hope your flexible enough to bend over

>>2710344
Slavery was bad.
The US trying to stop a secession attempt several decades after it itself seceded from the UK was also bad.
Slavery is worse than hypocrisy about secession, so I'm ok with the results of the war. However, when people talk about how secession was illegal, etc., I roll my eyes. A nation created by secession cannot deny secession to parts of itself. Well, it can, but it's absurd to do so. People who want to argue that the Union cause was just should stick to the slavery argument. It's the only pro-Union argument that has moral weight.

>>2715129
Is that rich piana

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>>2712707
You're a retard.

Ulysses S. Grant was the true genius of the civil war for recognizing the way that wars are waged in an industrial age: it's a game of who can replace battlefield losses more expediently.

Before Grant, retarded generals with dumb-ass old school masculine values got suckered into dick measuring field contests with Lee and got their asses handed to them. While the Grand Army of the Potomac was being lead by an avowed southern sympathizer who ran for president in 1864 on a platform of pussing out and surrendering, Grant was spanking confederates all up and down the Mississippi.

When Grant was given the reigns in the east, he pinned the Army of Northern Virginia outside of Richmond using warfare tactics which wouldn't have been out of place in World War 1, World War 2, or any or war in an industrial age, and while Lee couldn't maneuver his army without putting Richmond in jeopardy, Grant let Sherman off his leash, wrecking the south's ability to wage war by devastating their economic infrastructure.

The only dick measuring contest he got suckered into was Cold Harbor, which was a fucking disaster and a purely boneheaded move on Grant's part. But part of what made Grant so great was that he could put together a strategy and stick to it, even in the face of setbacks.

It's the same strategy that Eisenhower successfully deployed against the Nazis as supreme allied commander: pin the Wehrmacht down in the east in grindfests like Stalingrad and Leningrad, while a sustained bombing campaign gutted Germany's industrial capacity, it's capacity to wage war, and victory in Africa deprived them of sorely needed resources.

Recognize the man who wrote the book on warfare in an age of heavy industry. Not bad for a drunk in a wrinkled uniform who was a failure at everything else in life.

>>2721257
they'll never be able to change the core clauses that allow for revamps of the government, what they change in one case can be changed back in another, republicans won't hold cards forever.

>>2714657
The hell are you talking about? Southern culture is a lot like the British aristocracy in the countryside

>>2715129
>Made in the USA
>Completely forgetting that it's American born Hispanics (Literally made in the USA) that are the driving force of the demographic change

From a legal perspective, they're just as American as you or me (as they absolutely should be). Obsessing so heavily over race is only further dividing the nation.

Additionally, you (I'm assuming) made a point about Trump reversing the demographic trend. He's not. He's made it clear that he has no problem with legal immigration. Whether you like it or not they're there to stay.

Why don't you instead focus on people's politics and opinions over something so trivial as race?

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>>2721118
>Is it tactical and strategic brilliance and ingenuity?
He tricked the fuck out of the confederacy by leaving his supply line and scrounging off the land in the Savannah campaign. He literally researched census records of the region to see where he could scavenge from. He cut telegraph lines and was basically invisible, operating deep in enemy territory, to both his higher officers and the confederacy.

>>2718900
McClellan was a paranoid cuck cottonmouth

>>2721393
>Republicans gaining ground in rustbelt states
>Democrats gaining ground in existing blue States
>Electoral and congressional geography favoring Republicans

Sorry jewboy but the right wing is here to stay and will begin dismantling the liberal infestation piece by piece.

>>2721493
you're an idiot if you don't realize yet how this all works. It goes back and forth, don't be short sighted.

>>2721038
>or put us decades behind technology by WW1.
You kidding? America's innovations in barbed wire, poison gas, and coffins would be the envy of the world.

>>2721522
>The constitution changed through the proper channels and so you have no grounds to make a constitutional argument.
>It goes back and forth, don't be short sighted.

please reconcile these two statements

>>2721303
MUH SCOOPS

I'm not an american but I'm pretty divided by it.
On one hand, I believe in the right of secession
On the other hand, I'm against slavery and I think it's good that the North won.

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>>2718900
>McClellan did nothing wrong.
You can't do anything wrong if you don't do anything :^)

>>2721251
>When a government is fucking up

Oh yes god forbid the government actually tries to tax its subject especially in time of need the ABSOLUTE horror.

> Read and Understand The Truth. Read and Understand the Declaration.

Good god I'm fucking howling, american creation myths are like a fucking cult.

Rebel scum being put to the sword

>It's a "Civil War was about slavery" episode

Reminder General Lee was all for the abolishing of slavery

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>History will vindicate my memory from every unjust aspersion.

Did it?

The Republicans shouldn't have loosened their grip, and instead continued harsh reconstruction instead of caving in to good ol' boys.

The Confederacy was a terribly-managed shithole and people who glorify it or try to "celebrate its history" by flying Dixie flags around are some of this country's biggest idiots.

>>2721964

>an apolitical figure who had no impact or say on government policy

wow, it's fucking nothing!

>>2714925
There is literally one country between Spain and Germany. Why can German/Brit descendants get along but not German/Spanish?

>but.... Mestizos
americans allover are bred into natives

>but.... skin color
people are slowly getting over this

>>2721326
A+ post. No one seems to realize the despite Grant and Sherman's failings on a tactical level. They both realized that taking destroying an enemies capability to wage war was the best way to beat them. What they did in the Civil War was practically a glimpse into WW1

>>2721463
>Not being caught in the backwoods of fucking Georgia is worthy of military brilliance

>>2710344
sympathise for the confederates but i'm glad the union won

>>2721768
fuck off retard I'm not even OP but it wasn't as simple as just taxing it was parliament being a bunch of cockbags except for Pitt and thought that taxing a fairly autonomous region without givinf=g them equal representation and no room for redress

T B H the majority of people in this thread aren't even American

>>2722671
t. raitor

>>2711564
Do it again Uncle Billy!

>>2714622
t. Karl Marx

>>2722716
well Marx was writing "das kapital" during the civil war.

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>"He stood by me when I was crazy and I stood by him when he was drunk; and now, sir, we stand by each other always.”

>>2723505

Interestingly, Marx/Engel's "medium-importance" works include a series of articles and commentary on the contemporaneous American Civil War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Civil_War_in_the_United_States

The wiki blurb asserts that (shocker!) the real, underlying root cause of the war was slavery. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day; even M&E actually get something right, once in a while, by sheer dint of the volume of their output.

Ken Burns' television documentary also mentions in passing, at the start of each installment, what else was going on in the world around the time of such-and-such year, six-month period, etc. IIRC Marx's Capital (V.1) nearing completion is mentioned in one such spot, though the series spends no time on the above writings.

>>2721768

Your howl is the vacant howl of disbelief, it is like that of an young American leftist who scoffs not merely at a Trump, say, but at the right in general. The perfect object-lesson for your wrong howl is the stupid audience in this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfy0FNOmmaI

You are falling into a very specific sort of a fallacy, where because the authors of the principle were themselves rich, intelligent, privileged, etc, the /idea/ must somehow be wrong. Except that it isn't, they just happily and conveniently applied it to themselves. They actually weren't wrong, is the point, they were just better-positioned by breeding, geography etc to bring to themselves a happy end.

The other possible angle to this is a general anti-Americanism which permeates European thought (it is completely reasonable to suppose that you are European, or as near to European as makes no difference, say Canadian).

>>2721975
>mo
no

James Buchanan is widely regarded as one of the weakest presidents ever to serve. A pro-slavery Democrat who sat on his hands and did nothing while the south militarized.

He dropped a giant fucking mess in Lincoln's lap when his term was over.

The good guys won

I think some state lines should've been redrawn, and key economic figures should've had their land redistributed to slaves and poor whites.

the "key economic figures" (or upper-tier plantation-owners) should've been sent to settle the alaksa territory.

>>2711022
Hey I think I go to college where this photo was taken
Neat

>>2724820
>this is your brain on american creation myths

If the american rebellion wasn't an act of treachery than neither was the CSA secession. You sound mentally ill with your jumping at shadows strawmen.

>>2711564
Do it again Uncle Billy!

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>>2714657
I was raised in Florida, got my college degree in Charleston, South Carolina, and now live in Massachusetts by choice, and you're retarded.

Southern culture was imported European rural feudalism founded by a bunch of money grubbers in Jamestown who almost fucked themselves out of existence due to sheer stupidity. It was the ultimate welfare state, allowing a small cadre of moochers to live off of stolen labor and totally fuck the environment. Those greedy pukes gimped the southern economy which is why it went from being the most prosperous area of the nation in revolutionary times to so insignificant as to be negligible in the electoral college by the 1860's: it was a rotting shell of its former self and all of the soil had been completely depleted by intensive planting of cotton and tobacco, both notoriously horrible plants on a soil.

You want genuinely original American culture, it's right under your nose. Plymouth colony was founded by refugees fleeing sectarian violence, and its foundational celebration was one of getting along with the local Indians, adopting their live and let live attitude and their federal model where the tribes maintain independence and don't intrude on each other's personal business, but when one falls on hard times the others rally to support them. And unlike the south, which prized laziness and justified theft, New Englanders are unique throughout the world for valuing and rewarding hard work. And the best part is that virtually all of the economic growth in the country in the past 25 years has been wealthy, educated New Englanders moving to places with lower property values and central air conditioners, and bringing their culture of social liberty and merit recognition with them.

You will not find many other cultures which places so much value in self expression, peaceful exchange, and true, tangible compassion towards society's most vulnerable members at the same time prizing property ownership and an honest day's work.

>>2727192
>Muh Albion seed myth
>Muh Southern feudalism
>Muh Puritan work ethic
>Muh happy Indians at Thanksgiving

Spouting tropes and romantic myths doesn't replace historical analysis senpai

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The CSA: God-tier commanders mixed with some mid-tier to slightly below mid-tier commanders and 1 or 2 shitty commanders
The USA: Shitty commanders mixed with some mid-tier commanders and 1 or 2 good commanders

Despite being outnumbered in nearly every battle ever fought in the eastern campaign they humiliated the USA for 4 years till attrition and Ulysses "I will unite the Union under one grave" Grant threw a fuckton of soldiers in the late war. His strategy was retarded but it was what the Union needed as opposed to McClellan's absolute chimping-out and assuming he's outnumbered 3-1 by a Confederate force of 400,000 despite his opponent having only 20,000 troops. To be fair, Pinkerton contributed to his insanity. Sherman was a butcher but oh well, such is war. He went overkill but it wasn't the fucking genocide people make it out to be. Lee and Jackson, and to a slightly lesser extent, Longstreet, as well as Forrest, Hood(for the beginning half), J.E.B. Stuart, and Ashby, A.P. Hill, Ewell, and a shitton of other Confederate generals were of compeltely based tier, humiliating the Union over and over again with their mongrel, barefooted crue of men. Southerners take a lot of pride in how well they performed despite massive disadvantages, and Northerners take pride in having won.
(Btw I'm from Colorado I have no pony in the race. The south was just better as far as the war itself was concerned.)

>>2710344
Mixing cotton, freedom and slavery
Is a recipe for industrial misery

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>>2727261
Facts don't stop existing just because you don't like them and spin them with cynical language, grasshopper.

I've seen and lived in both cultures with my own eyes, and there's no contest which one is more vibrant.

One is shallow, commercial, and the segments of it which are poor are really fucking poor, and you get these shitty trailer parks on every other street corner with shitty run down public schools which are pissing contests between white hicks and gangsta thug blacks, and privileged private schools where sheltered white kids are indoctrinated by the most obnoxious bible-thumpers that you could possibly imagine.

In the other, Buddhist SE Asians live alongside Arab Muslims, African Americans, Han Chinese, Jews, and White yuppies without any problems, and in the homes that they themselves own. Not to mention the centuries old buildings, the union cemeteries, the rural countryside which is both heavy developed with modern infrastructure while preserved against large scale settling, with the finest educational institutions (both public and private) in the world.

I'm perfectly happy paying a little more in taxes to live in a nice area with people who are actually nice, not like the fake-nice you get with southern anglos, who are secretly riddled with anxiety that Yankees, blacks, and Hispanics are cucking their way of life out of existence.

>>2727340
>Posting your personal blog on /his/

Your posts are incoherent and lack any substantial arguments other than personal anecdotes and feelings. I could easily go off on random tangents why I hated living in New England. Everywhere outside the Boston metro area is depressing as fuck and nothing but old people and opiods.

>Muh multicultural wonderland

New England is white as fuck and where they do have minorities they also have problems. Why don't you go hang out in hartford for the day.

>Muh history

Charleston, where you said you lived, has just as much history as anywhere in New England.

>New England
>Good public universities

Kek

>>2727340
nice travel blog but this is a history board

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>>2710344

>>2710344

>>2710344

Tragedy how it ended. If John Brown had successfully started mass slave insurrections, and actually put the South to the torch (rather than the weaksauce burning they still whine about to this day), then reconstruction could have actually helped slaves a little.

Because they weren't punished enough, southern states are still fucked.

>>2710344

Auto-genocide committed by the tyrant Abraham Lincoln.

No different than the auto-genocide committed by the tyrant Pol Pot.

>>2727427
This. Seeing the South whine about it to this very day made me wish that the North should have really give them something to complain about

>>2710947
The Civil War will determine America's national direction to the present day. You can't truly understand the US without understanding the war.

>>2711420
We took Locke's ideas about violent resistance to tyranny to heart after that revolution business.

>>2711516
Not the people you're responding to, but why can't the Civil War have multiple causes? Also remember that Lincoln want an abolitionist until after the war began. Immediately after the war the south was better for blacks, but then the Republicans stopped watching and Jim Crow happened.

>>2727427
>Slave revolt

But most slaves liked their masters, even the ones John Brown captured just wanted to go home. He even murdered a black guy for trying to warn the authorities.

>>2727500

Many (not all) had never known anything better, because they were bought up in an environment where their abusive masters were their only protection against a more abusive state - and so got hardcore stockholm'd. That was a lot of the problem.

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>>2727527
You could say that about anybody throughout history. We are all reflections of the society we are born into. At this time in America people were still forcing their children to do backbreaking labor 12 hours a day north and south so don't act like slavery was a millionaire times worse than the shitty life most 19th century Americans lived.

>>2721975
t. Arguably the worst US President

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>>2727403
>Your posts are incoherent
No, you're just too mad about it
And we're talking about culture. Of course its based on feelings; that's what "culture" is

>nothing but old people and opiods.
And research doctors, engineers of automated factories (the "rust belt" is a meme, the reason there's no jobs is because all of the factories are now automated), professors, and other highly educated professionals. and all of the old people evacuate to Florida every winter.

Enjoy your meth and trailer parks.

>>Muh multicultural wonderland
home ownership makes gentlemen out of them all. Southern culture glorifies welfare queens and gets raging jealous when the negros are given equal access because when you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

>white as fuck
And you know why that is? Because there weren't welfare queens literally raising negros like cattle back in the day.

>Why don't you go hang out in hartford for the day.
Or I could go hang out in Woonsocket, RI with all the degenerate whites. I never claimed it was a utopia, but what I do have is a sense of scale: far more poverty in the south than in the north, far more ghettos, far more segregation, far more suburban blight, far more problems.

>Charleston, where you said you lived, has just as much history as anywhere in New England.
It's one of the last hold outs from a culture which had been thoroughly pillage by the moocher class and burnt to ashes in a jealous fit.

>Kek
Keep laughing Cletus, I just watched my kid niece graduate from a public school that had a vocational training program, raising an appreciable percentage of the graduates to have blue collar skills and be ready to enter the workforce as journeymen electricians, plumbers, welders, and mechanics. Because she scored so high on her exams she was put in advanced courses which emphasized STEM fields and prepped her for a path towards law school. You'll never understand because your public school was an underfunded shithole.

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>>2727408
"culture" is subjective. You get nice buildings and pleasant scenery everywhere you go. The difference is in the attitudes of the people living in them, what they value, and what they think are worth preserving

And understand how people behave in the present is the key to understanding how they behaved in the past. History without humanities is a catalog: stacking shit in ascending and descending order without thought given as to how or why one gave way to the next.

>>2724820
>at the start of each installment, what else was going on in the world around the time of such-and-such year, six-month period, etc
i fucking loved that.

i remember they mentioned in one episode how the tai ping rebellion reached like 20 million casualties and 2 episodes later they mentioned how it ended

>>2711564
Do it again Uncle Billy!

>>2727775
>New England Culture
>Statue of a Virginian Planter

>>2721251
>When a government is fucking up, and repeatedly, and badly
Taxes without representation was barely a bump in the road, they had many supporters in Britain (who knew they would vote the same way in parliament) and would have gained representation eventually. There are plenty of ways to surreptitiously undermine the government without escalating things to war which would have accelerated the process.

This was not the goal of the American elite however who desired the powers of a king (as an oligarchy) and a military entirely subservient to their beck and call.

There was nothing exceptional about America, it was all realpolitik, it was also against their long term interest to leave the British Empire. Their combined forces would have dominated the 19th century to an even greater extent than the British Empire did and there would be no civil war. This planet would have rightfully fell under Anglo dominion.

I read that if Davis hadn't attacked Sumter he could've seceded peacefully, since no one actually wanted a war

>>2725875

>he can't distinguish legitimate cases from illegitimate ones

You get points for actually trying this angle though, stupid as the argument turns out to be, it at least goes to the substance of the claim - but turns out not to hold water.

>>2728292
>he can't distinguish legitimate cases from illegitimate ones

This. The CSA had a legal argument for secession, the USA didn't and flat out betrayed the crown.

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>>2728444
Yeah but the crown was on the head of a nutcase and the UK sucked anyways.

>>2728444

"No. What you have cutely stated is the exact opposite of the point which was clearly to have been derived from the above, and you know it, so don't even try."

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>>2721975
Not yet but never hold out hope Jimmy!

>>2711564

Do it again, uncle Billy!

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>>2727953
Yes, unlike southerners, who exhibit the most crass manifestations of regional tribalism, Yankees are more willing to see themselves as part of a greater indivisible whole, a commonwealth, and willing to recognize great Americans regardless of their background or personal identity.

In the south, they make monuments to the moocher class and their political lackeys while bitching incessantly about brown people having access to the same social institutions that they set up for white people.

>Ring the good ol' bugle, boys, we'll sing another song,
>Sing it with the spirit that will start the world along,
>Sing it as we used to sing it 50,000 strong
>While we were marching through Georgia.

>Hurrah, hurrah, we bring the jubilee!
>Hurrah, hurrah, the flag that makes you free!
>So we sang the chorus from Atlanta to the sea
>While we were marching through Georgia!

>How the darkies shouted when they heard the joyful sound!
>How the turkeys gobbled which our commissary found!
>How the sweet potatoes even started from the ground
>While we were marching through Georgia!

>Yes, and there were Union men who wept with joyful tears
>When they saw the honored flag they had not seen for years.
>Hardly could they be restrained from breaking forth in cheers
>While we were marching through Georgia!

>"Sherman's dashing Yankee boys will never reach the coast!"
>So the saucy rebels said, and 'twas a handsome boast,
>Had they not forgot, alas, to reckon with the host
>While we were marching through Georgia!

>So we made a thoroughfare for freedom and her train,
>Sixty miles in latitude, 300 to the main.
>Treason fled before us, for resistance was in vain
>While we were marching through Georgia!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRXmuvLU8LQ

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>>2727340
>>2727403
>>2727754

These posts sum up every educated New Englander I've ever met. For all their self-declared "history" they really have a dearth of actual culture. The south might be full of backwoods retards but they have produced a substantial amount of American culture, enough to be the region people think of when they picture "Americana". They gave us Bluegrass, Rock and Roll, Folk, Country, Jazz, Gospel, and Blues. Musicians like Elvis, Buddy Holly, Chuck Berry, Louis Armstrong, Johnny Cash and hundreds of other greats. Literary greats like Mark Twain, Edgar Allan Poe, Faulkner, Ralph Ellison, Capote, and Tennessee Williams. Even their food is amazing, including all the regional BBQ and whiskeys. Also Charleston is the only historic city in the south? really? What about New Orleans, Savannah, Nashville, and Richmond. Even Raleigh and Atlanta surprised me by how charming and interesting they were. Boston is great but is overrated, last time I went I asked around for restaurant recommendations and ironically everyone sent me to a Southern restaurant near Harvard square (it was fantastic though). It's funny that in an argument about culture all the New Englander can talk about is virtue signalling, test scores and home ownership lol. From my experience New England culture is basically Henry David Thoreau, clam chowder and then nothing. If I wanted to live in a educated predominantly white wealthy region of the country with beautiful scenery I'd move to the PNW. But that's just my two cents.

t. Pennsylvanian

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>>2728665
>saucy rebels

>>2728752
Please don't confuse all of new england with retarded massivejewshits morons.

>>2727975
Fort Sumter was important. If he didn't have it he'd have had trouble establishing his country as legitimate.

>>2728292
>"Fucking up" can be measured objectively.
Talking like a ponce doesn't make your argument any less stupid.

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>>2728752
>New England culture is basically Henry David Thoreau, clam chowder and then nothing
You criticized the poster for painting the South with a broad brush, but you turn around and do the same.

The cultures of North and South are both rich, and one of the greatest impacts of the Civil War (IMO) is its lasting imprint on those cultures; with North as the - many times arrogant - righteous victor and South as the utterly defeated. The defeat and plunder has the effect of a black hole on Southern culture and literature. The entire spectrum from settlement to the present day is warped inwards towards the humiliation at Appomattox. Conversely, everything in the North is being blown outwards by the wind of victory.

The real value of the Civil War to an historian is the fact that it was the most uniquely American event in our history. You can walk down the street in any Eastern city and see the effects of the war. In the North it's elaborate monuments to the 'Grand Army of the Republic', and in the south it's mournful tributes to 'the Rebels'.

tl;dr We got Walt Whitman too, bitch

>>2729357
When did Walt Whitman ever live in New England? Are you thinking of Emerson?

>>2728752
>based uncucked Mississippi

How's that Puritan ethic working out for New England now? The Congregationalists died a long, agonizing death and the North is not better for it.

>>2729357
>The defeat and plunder has the effect of a black hole on Southern culture and literature. The entire spectrum from settlement to the present day is warped inwards towards the humiliation at Appomattox.

Literally no Southerner ever has felt humiliated about being a Southerner because the Confederacy surrendered. After Appomattox, we went right back to our old way of life and have been at it ever since, with only intermittent meddling by Northerners. The South is a much more joyous place than the North, generally speaking, despite our military "defeat".

>>2729397
WW didn't live in what we now consider to be New England, but it's generally agreed upon that Whitman is the prototypical Yankee. Also, rural Long Island, where he grew up, was much more connected to N.E. culture than it is today.

>>2710344
Never was a war fought for such an unworthy cause, and it had the Irish civil war to stack up against.

>>2729423
>Literally no Southerner ever has felt humiliated about being a Southerner because the Confederacy surrendered
That's not what I'm saying here. Most of Southern history, viewed from within and without, is fixed on an axis towards the period between secession and surrender.

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>>2729443
I think this is a false assumption. The South has always felt independent. Going back to the Constitutional Convention in 1787, the Southern delegates felt perfectly at ease walking out and staying out of the Union if their way of life was threatened. They did not feel like they owed any sort of kinship or allegiance to the North if the Yankees would try to meddle and manipulate Southern affairs.

So the focus on "independence" in Southern thought is not so much a black hole where we block out the Confederacy's defeat, but instead a view where the South sees itself as a unique and independent cultural, geographical, and indeed national identity. This is how the South has always been and it's how it always will be.

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Obligatory

>>2729482
bullshit, the modern divide is rural vs urban. south is just incidentally more rural. civil war is dead as a doornail

>>2729508
>modern divide is rural vs urban
Not everywhere. Some of the snootiest, arrogant liberals I've ever met have farms in rural Vermont, Massachusetts, and other places in New England.

I'd say that the divide could be better described as dense urban vs. exurban.

>>2729467
>instead a view where the South sees itself as a unique and independent cultural, geographical, and indeed national identity

I get this, for sure, but it seems like a war that is described in the South as 'Northern Aggression' - in which a bid for independence was lost, at great human cost - would probably color depictions of Southern life before and after the war. You can't say that classic films like 'Birth of a Nation' or 'Gone with the Wind' aren't cultural products that tie Southern culture with the course and effects of the war itself.

>>2729529
>I get this, for sure, but it seems like a war that is described in the South as 'Northern Aggression'

We're just joking around when we say that. I can't believe yankees take it seriously. Lost Causers will typically call it the War between the States.

Honestly, it really wasn't about slavery but states rights, as well as political power shifts.

>>2729529
The bit about "Northern Aggression" is more often than not a bit of fun. Anon here >>2729622 has it pegged perfectly. Although a serious historical observer would notice a lot of the North-South cultural tension has (non-exclusive) roots in Northern attempts to legislate away slavery and the slave trade in the US in the early and mid-1800s, it is almost always a joke.

However, the "Lost Cause" was less of an effect on the South than has historically been true. Is it a lost cause for Northerners to erect monuments to lost battles in the Revolutionary War and War of 1812? Like I said, the South has always been more interested with its own internal culture than with any larger American national culture. This can be seen with attempts to tie the Confederacy to earlier Southern independent states, via symbolism (Bonnie Blue flag - Republic of West Florida, for example). The modern South does the same thing. We reminisce on our history. Doesn't matter that the surrender occurred at Appomattox. We reminisce all the same.

>>2729482

>we want to be independent

Actual neo-Confederates are maybe 5% of the population. And given how much the South's economy depends on federal subsidies and Army bases, it would be totally unviable as an independent nation.

>>2729731
We never asked to be supported. We asked to be independent. Whether we survive is our business.

>>2729761

And the matter was tried, and you lost, for ever and ever. Calm down and stop using the present tense where you have no business doing so.

>>2729794
It's funny how un-ironic you're being. See pic related here faggot >>2729482

>>2729832
Nobody wants a belligerant and unstable neighbour that shares a huge land border

Plus you provide warm bodies to die for israel and the federal government

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>>2729861
Well at least you're honest now.

>>2729881
I'm not him. I'm not even american

>>2729761

It was hardly a monolithic Southern desire to be independent. 9 million people lived in the 11 Confederate states in 1861--excluding the four million who were legally property (presumably they didn't associate secession with freedom or liberty), us Appalachians (who had no stake in the institution of slavery) opposed what was an attempt by rich plantation owners to assert their control. There's a reason why West Virginia exists.

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>>2728752
Woo boy, where to start with this one

>These posts sum up every educated New Englander I've ever met.
And your post sums up every uneducated southerner I've ever met: unimaginative, narrow minded, and proud of his own ignorance.

> For all their self-declared "history" they really have a dearth of actual culture
New England has all the same commercial outlets that southerners do. But unlike southerners, they have actual tangible ties to their heritage, not just an inherited jealously towards Negroes

>judging a people by their porn preferences
Behold: the mindset of a southerner. His obsession with porn is so thoroughly ingrained into his psych that it actually impairs his ability to perceive reality, and he judges his fellow countrymen based off of their porn preferences

>"Hai gaise, look at all these black folk singers whose creativity we appropriated. That means the south has culture!"
They mostly wrote those songs as a protest against their horrible living conditions, IN SPITE of southern culture. When you have something that powerful to say, it is usually in opposition to an external oppressor. For many of them, singing was their only long-shot ticket to a decent life

Southerners laying claim to them is like southerners declaring blacks 3/5ths of an electoral vote: trying to have their cake and eat it, too (on one hand, they viewed blacks as property. On the other hand, a larger population means more electoral power.) Again, they are the ultimate moochers and the one thing they prize more than anything is appropriated labor

>regional BBQ
Bitch we have lobster, the sea-cockroach of kings. But what we don't have is a fatty boomboom stomachs from eating so much shitty food all the time

Just take Elvis Presley, for example: his handlers literally described him as "the black man's voice in a white man's body" to his financial backers. Southerners love him for being the ultimate thief, because that's what their society prizes above anything else

>>2729861

I'm the other earlier guy and I approve of this sentiment's humor, if not everything literal about it.

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>>2728752

2/2

> Literary greats like Mark Twain, Edgar Allan Poe, Faulkner, Ralph Ellison, Capote, and Tennessee Williams.
Edgar Allen Poe was born in Boston and died in Baltimore you twit. Truman Capote was born in New Orleans, French Creole =/= dirty white southerner, and he died as much of a liberal Californian yuppie as they come. And Ralph Ellison was born in Oklahoma City, that's not southern that's western, plus he spent most of his life in New York City.

> From my experience New England culture is basically Henry David Thoreau, clam chowder and then nothing.
No, New England culture is the Massachusetts Institute of technology. It's the Waltham technological corridor. It's the healthiest and best educated work force in the nation, with some of the lowest rates of crime in the nation, and the fewest instances of racial strife, It's the most productive automated factories in the world. The quintessential American painter is Normal Rockwell, who made some of the most iconic and recognizably American paintings using his neighbors in Western Massachusetts and upstate New York as his photographic reference.

> the PNW.
I guaran-fucking-tee you that the good citizens of the Pacific Northwest have far more in common with tolerant, liberal New Englanders than beastly, short-sighted southerners. There's a reason why southernfats bleat about "coastals"

>>2729920
>>2729925
So among other things you're saying you're proud of being a cuck nigger lover? Got ya

>>2729920
>>2729925
>these levels of butthurt and mental gymnastics when faced with the truth
>muh lobster
>muh moocher
>responds with Waltham technological corridor and automated factories when asked for examples of New England culture

No wonder you like living in the region where everyone's grouchy and hates casual conversation, a simple conversation with an autist like you must be unbearable. Also Poe was orphaned and adopted by Wealthy Virginians and always considered himself a southerner so keep trying to spin your way to a legitimate argument.

On the one hand I feel bad for the people replying earnestly to people LARPing as Southern apologists
On the other hand I have literal tolerance for people who even jokingly defend what the South did and they need to be put in their place

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>>2731003
>He hasn't taken the dixiepill

>>2731003
>waaaah the South is so bad
>you could only be larping to defend it
Eat shit, fag

>>2731003
little tolerance*

ADVANCE THE FLAG OF DIXIE, OOORAAAH, OOORAAAH! IN DIXIELAND, WE TAKE OUR STAND, LIVE OR WITH DIXIE! TO ARMS, TO ARMS

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>>2730962

>>muh lobster
Baked Beans, Maple Sugar, Cranberries, Apples, Clams, Cod, New England has a rich food tradition which mostly revolves around the small time farmer and Fisherman. New England terrain and soil has always favored individual planters over giant commercial farms. And unlike the south, where everything is fried, greasy, slathered in sauce (and don't forget the 3 extra sticks of butter) New England cuisine remains extremely healthy.
>muh moocher
slave owners are the ultimate welfare queens. They owe their existence to the sweat of another man's brow, it is a form of legalized theft. Capitalism rots and decays in the presence of slavery because the entire premise of Capitalism is fair exchange.

>responds with Waltham technological corridor and automated factories when asked for examples of New England culture
Casually reminding you southern leeches that we're not a culture who lionizes lazy sit-arounds and racial appropriators. But I did mention Norman Rockwell, perhaps the most iconic illustrator in history. I could also mention Ralph Waldo Emerson, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Emily Dickenson, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, James Russell Lowell, John Cheever, Edith Wharton, H.P Lovecraft, Herman Melville, John Updike, Robert Frost, Arthur Miller, Stephen King, or so many more. Boston trails only New York City in terms of the size of its publishing industry. Mark Twain thought Hartford, Connecticut was the most beautiful city in America, made it his home, and wrote his masterpieces there.

>autist
It's not autism, I just have a fondness for carefully and methodically picking apart the arguments of southerners. They're so used to the bullshittery of southern conformist culture that the sheer deluge of logic makes them sperg out in hilarious fashion.

1/2

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>>2730962

>grouchy and hates casual conversation
That's just a meme. They're not grouchy, they just hate having their time wasted and don't like being bull-shitted.

I'll admit that New England doesn't have much of a musical tradition, if you listen to a Rhode Island accent (think Lois from Family Guy) or old anglo Bostonian accent, you'd agree that the world is probably a better place when New Englanders are the ones paying other people to sing instead of singing themselves. But here's the difference: people who came to New England integrate into the primary conformity culture, and it shapes and influences their decisions and outlook, even if they find dryer ways of expressing it than through song. All of those musicians you mentioned were examples of southern counter-culture. Their body of work was a statement AGAINST their primary conformity culture, which just as soon would have thrown all of those Negro musicians back into a bleak, miserable existence as an impoverished sharecropper while their own police force preys on them like wolves.

And let's not forget that "country" culture, with cowboy hats and shit-kicker boots, was in fact appropriated from Mexicans living in central Florida.

>Poe was orphaned and adopted by Wealthy Virginians
And in true southern fashion, married his 13 year old cousin and got the fuck out of there as soon as he was old enough to live on his own. Man, I can't tell you how hard you're making me laugh right now.

If you're going to talk about a great southern writer you could at least go with true southerner of true talent writing in the primary southern cultural tradition, like Pat Conroy or Shelby Foote. Don't get me wrong, I actually think southern culture has a lot of things that are great about it, it just wrestles and suffers with this lost-cause cancer which fosters learned helplessness, bitter racial squabbling, and a stifling conformism

2/2

>>2721051
>muh human rights and demokracee

Get over yourself

>>2732202
>And let's not forget that "country" culture, with cowboy hats and shit-kicker boots, was in fact appropriated from Mexicans living in central Florida.
>Lefties actually believe this

You can't make this stuff up

>>2732954
Different guy, but are you implying those things aren't good things?

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>>2732984
>Lefties
Bitch, I've literally spent the entire thread tearing down the idea of a welfare state. The only lefties here are the southernfats who think that negroes owe them something and want all the Gibs-me-monies for themselves. Where do you think the Clintons are from?

And yes, Cowboy culture is appropriated Hispanic culture. Just like everything else about the south, they are the worst kind of enemies of free market capitalism because they steal, steal, steal and then blame the people they're stealing from for all of their society's problems. That makes them the worst moochers in the country, worse even than some illegal Guatemalan immigrant who busts his ass for shit wages under the table just to voluntarily send half of his criminally low paycheck back to his Catholic qt3.14 wife who is sitting at home being a good girl and raising his children.

>>2732197
>>2732202
>>2733212

Jesus Christ shut the fuck up, you're making the rest of us from New England look bad. You're not from here. Transplants are the fucking worst.

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>>2733226
Sure thing, McClellan. Thanks for all those hot opinions

>>2710344
McClellan did nothing wrong
He knew firsthand how deadly fighting with modern weapons would be since he witnessed several battles in the Crimean War.
He knew the best way to defeat the South was to let the Norths superior resources win for them, not to win by fighting battles against generals who tactically were superior in almost every way.
After all, it wasnt really Grants clashes with Lee that whittled the confederacy down. In reality it was Shermans total war and the souths lack of infrastructure and industry to fight a prolonged war of attrition.
McClellan knew that tactical battlefield victories would mean little in terms of defeating the confederacy, but warmonger Lincoln demanded he send men to the slaughter.
Strategically speaking the only victories on the battlefield that had any larger impact on the war were Vicksburg and Gettysburg, one a strategic siege the other more a confederate blunder than anything else. Union assaults were almost entirely worthless on the front in Virginia and McClellan knew that, but instead he is branded a coward.
Was he a great tactical commander? Absolutely not, i admit that even though he defeated Lee in several small battles in West Virginia. Did he have a sound strategy for the Virginian front in the war? Absolutely.
Theres a reason union officers lied to their soldiers at Gettysburg and told them that McClellan, not Meade, was in command.

>>2732995
They are things. Can be judged as good or bad.

>>2732984

>Though popularly considered American, the traditional cowboy began with the Spanish tradition, which evolved further in what today is Mexico and the Southwestern United States into the vaquero of northern Mexico and the charro of the Jalisco and Michoacán regions. While most hacendados (ranch owners) were ethnically Spanish criollos,[22] many early vaqueros were Native Americans trained to work for the Spanish missions in caring for the mission herds.[23] Vaqueros went north with livestock. In 1598, Don Juan de Oñate sent an expedition across the Rio Grande into New Mexico, bringing along 7000 head of cattle. From this beginning, vaqueros of mestizo heritage drove cattle from New Mexico and later Texas to Mexico City.[24] Mexican traditions spread both South and North, influencing equestrian traditions from Argentina to Canada.

>>2733730

>As English-speaking traders and settlers expanded westward, English and Spanish traditions, language and culture merged to some degree. Before the Mexican-American War in 1848, New England merchants who traveled by ship to California encountered both hacendados and vaqueros, trading manufactured goods for the hides and tallow produced from vast cattle ranches. American traders along what later became known as the Santa Fe Trail had similar contacts with vaquero life. Starting with these early encounters, the lifestyle and language of the vaquero began a transformation which merged with English cultural traditions and produced what became known in American culture as the "cowboy".[25]

>>2733730
>>2733737
Copypasting the wiki doesn't corroborate your pathetic assumption of appropriation. Try reading and understanding next time and it is very clear.

>>2733776
Not the same anon, nor did I say it was appropriation. Guess the (((leftist))) bogeyman got to you.

>>2733818
No, not the boogeyman, the real thing, clearly.

>>2733730
>traditional cowboy began with the Spanish tradition
>traditional cowboy

wtf does that even mean? Of course American culture evolved from Europe, Americans didn't just generate out of the earth in 1776. Also I wouldn't treat wikipedia as gospel, there's culture warriors on there attempting to edit every page to push their ideology.

>>2733989

It's a well-established fact that it is in origin Spanish, but we adopted it from Mexican Vaqueros. As one of the links point out it's a mixture of both American and Hispanic culture.
We definitely did not appropriate it.

>http://www.americancowboy.com/ranch-life-archive/history-vaquero

>http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/cowboyculture.htm

>>2728752
>claims Faulkner as a Southern great
>literally wrote about how shitty the South was while it was trying its hardest to pretend the war was legitimate
really wrinkled my thinker

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>>2733378
>McClellan did nothing wrong
McClellan's flaw was deploying Cunctator tactics in the industrial age. They had an incidental benefit of not being wasteful with men and material, but they were still reflections of a classical mindset which still saw war the way Napoleon, William the Conquerer, and Quintus Fabius did: as blocks of infantry clashing in an open field. Like 98% of all generals to ever live, he was fixated on fighting and winning the last war.

Cunctator tactics are obsolete in an era where railroads let you funnel huge numbers of replacement infantry onto the field. When you have the economic advantage and you're not pressing the weight of your productive capacity towards your enemy, you're giving him breathing room to resupply his army and score victories on the diplomatic front.

>After all, it wasnt really Grants clashes with Lee that whittled the confederacy down. In reality it was Shermans total war and the souths lack of infrastructure and industry to fight a prolonged war of attrition.
Yeah but between the two Grant always was the brains of the operation. Sherman was the balls.
Sherman would not have been able to do his thing if Grant did not keep Lee's army pinned down in a grindfest outside of Richmond.

>McClellan knew that tactical battlefield victories would mean little in terms of defeating the confederacy,
He knew that the old ways were wongheaded. However, what he lacked was strategic vision to target the confederate economic and industrial machinery which was fueling their war effort.

>Did he have a sound strategy?
McClellan was a talented bureaucrat. He did a very good job rebuilding the U.S army after almost its entire officer corps up and seceded. His grand strategic vision for dealing with an external enemy to his army, however, was to sit on his hands and then run for president on a platform of wimping out and surrendering in a fit of liberal kumbaya "why can't we all just get along?" lily livered bullshit

Two belligerents can fight the same war for different causes and even then there's the divide between the common man and the leadership. The south seceded because they didn't want to become a permanent political minority on an issue that affected every aspect of southern life. It was seen through the lens of a fight for independence. The north, or at least the leadership, viewed the war as a fight to quell a rebellion, not a great moral cause. Despite having the good foresight to seize an opportunity to actually accomplish abolition the north didn't fight because they were oh so nice.

>>2734186
If this is all you took away from Faulkner then you're an idiot.

>>2736131
Not ALL I took, but it sure is a part of it. And obviously it's more nuanced and even sympathetic than my characterization. But it does seem ironic to claim him as an asset for the South in a thread on the Civil War.

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>le epic gentlemanly South was led by badass infallible leaders who only lost because they had less men meme

I just thought it was people in the South who drank Jubal Early's cool-aid. Do most of you guys really believe that shit?

>>2737899
well yeah, because it's true, and we'll do it again one day

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As a Mississippian I can't say I have any strong feelings. One thing that disappoints me is that because of the Civil war, the south (especially MS) forever lost it's dignity, wealth, and reputation. We at one time had high culture: antebellum architecture and dress, an effluent higher class. Now we have what, wal-marts and the worst education in the country? Although I guess this disappearance of high culture can be said about the country as a whole, but it happened to us first and it shows. Living in Mississippi is like living in a lost, deserted empire.

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>>2737899
Hi, unapologetic Yankee, here

It was a combination of factors which led to Robert E. Lee's stunning victories in the field. What remains undeniable is Lee's talent at field maneuvering: even outnumbered 3 to 1 he could still split his army into two contingents and have them both pincering the weak spot in the union line, striking with precision and organization with the better field position every time. This was the classical method of waging war: you muster your army, you march your army out into the field, you spend weeks maneuvering infantry around in block regiments around your opponent, trying to time it so that conditions were absolutely perfectly so as to maximize your chances of success, as you had one shot and you absolutely could not screw it up

However by the 1860's technology was driving the classical method into obsolescence: it didn't take you weeks to come back with reinforcements, it took you days because now you could railroad infantry to the front line. Battles in the classical sense became pointless dick measuring contests because of how quickly armies could bounce back from loss, you were just funneling men into the meat grinder

All generals of the Civil War were susceptible to the folly and masculine conceit of wanting to wage war using the classical method, and waxed nostalgically for the glory of the frontal assault. Even Grant got suckered into the pointless slaughter that was Cold Harbor. For Robert E. Lee, that moment of hubris was Gettysburg

And therein lies the reason why the south lost: the union could bounce back easily even from repeated losses. For the south, one major loss was too much. It wasn't that they were lacking in manpower, but that their economy simply couldn't afford another big army, and once Sherman started burning their infrastructure to the ground, they became even less capable of fielding troops

>>2721038
Uh not likely, odds are once the confederates won, they would have sued for peace with reparations and western territory. The Union would've been left largely intact to its own devices. Mainly becuase the South would not have had the man power to govern the north, in the same way that the north governed the south after the war.

Regardless of that, the South would have by itself either dissolved and repatriated itself into the union by the 1920's as slavery would've become untenable due to technological advances, the south became a shithole, or it would have balkanized and the north retake those balkanized states in the interest of safety.

Meanwhile Europe would have been fucked as odds are we would not have entered the war.

>>2737899
The union raised twice the amount of troops as the CSA. How is that even a controversial claim? The south way outdid themselves in the Eastern theater which is why Lee, Jackson, and company have been considered some of the best generals in American history.

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>>2738723
>as slavery would've become untenable due to technological advances
Slavery got MORE profitable thanks to technological advances. The institution of slavery was in fact saved by labor saving devices like the cotton gin.

The South didn't maintain slavery because it was merely a money-making enterprise: it was the very core of their culture and society of believing themselves to be the superior breed of human, fit to lord over all the others thanks to mere accident of birth, fit to control the lower races as readily as they controlled their horses, pigs, and steer. They had dreams and visions of conquering Mexico and transforming into a pan-Caribbean Empire.

Slave empires run fine as long as you have a constant, steady stream of new slaves. As soon as they run out of people worth conquering, their society rots and decays

>>2739132
>fit to lord over all the others thanks to mere accident of birth
except this isnt true

it was more a retroactive justification of ones birth place in life

>>2739132
>it was the very core of their culture and society of believing themselves to be the superior breed of human

are you implying the north didn't believe in white supremacy as well? The south thought if they had a massive black population then slavery was the preferred way of keeping them. The idea that blacks and whites couldn't coexist freely was a common viewpoint north and south in 19th century America. Jefferson wrote about it extensively in his Notes on the State of Virginia.

>They had dreams and visions of conquering Mexico and transforming into a pan-Caribbean Empire.

This was a meme dreamt up by a small group of southern larpers in the 1850s, it was not a mainstream view in the south.

The South should've freed all the slaves, then declared war on the Union.

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>>2739160
>are you implying the north didn't believe in white supremacy as well?
It doesn't matter what society you look at: you always get low information idiots who find it less scary to scapegoat an "other" than it is to do a little introspection and reevaluation of their priorities.

The difference is scale: how many are there in a given 100 sq mile area, and to what extent are those kind of people influencing local policy?

In the north, that answer was "very limited". Northern Republican industrialists hated having to compete with freeloading land-owners who didn't have to make payroll. Abolitionists exerted more political influence in northern politics than racists did, even though their influence on the national stage had been almost totally marginalized thanks to the electoral college. The lion's share of immigration in the country at the time was from Catholic countries like Ireland, Germany, and Italy to Yankee states like Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania, and there was not widespread racial strife between Yankees and their immigrant neighbors, even as there was a large, active national anti-Catholic special interest group determined to stop them from immigrating into the country, as they did not believe Germans, Italians, and Irish were "white" enough. Over time, these Catholic immigrants integrated and nobody questions their "whiteness"

That was not the case in the south, where powerful slave bosses dominated the economy and the political apparatus, where impoverished poor southerners most often found employment within the slave owning industries, either trading and transporting them, overseeing them, managing the cotton that's coming out of their gins. The entire backbone of their society was filled with men who had a unique personal incentive to believe in racial superiority theories: it's probably what helped them sleep at night! These societies actively resisted racial integration, and it causes them problems to this day.

>>2739132
>muh sociological explanation of history which just so happens to fit a moral narrative

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>>2739459
>Northern Republican industrialists hated having to compete with freeloading land-owners who didn't have to make payroll.

lol, in what industry did Northern industrialists have to compete with plantation owners? Also plantation owners had to house and feed there slaves, nothing's "free".

> there was not widespread racial strife between Yankees and their immigrant neighbors, even as there was a large, active national anti-Catholic special interest group determined to stop them from immigrating into the country, as they did not believe Germans, Italians, and Irish were "white" enough. Over time, these Catholic immigrants integrated and nobody questions their "whiteness"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_nativist_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_riots_of_1841
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_race_riot_of_1863
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_riot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots

Are you kidding me? There were massive immigrant problems in the north which eventually led to the Republicans and Democrats coming together to halt all immigration from southern and eastern europe. And I didn't even get into all the race riots throughout the north that happened during the great migrations of blacks to the north.

>That was not the case in the south, where powerful slave bosses dominated the economy and the political apparatus

and this is different from the wealthy industrialists who dominated the economy and political apparatus in the north because?

>These societies actively resisted racial integration, and it causes them problems to this day.

racial segregation probably helped the south desu, otherwise it'd be Brazil 2.0. Jim Crow was specifically passed to incentivize blacks to move north.

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>>2739522
>lol, in what industry did Northern industrialists have to compete with plantation owners?
Do you know what a tariff is? You should read a book, sometime, maybe one about the Lincoln-Douglas debate of 1858, maybe something that goes into how interconnected the economy was in the mid 19th century and how that contributed to the sore feelings of the civil war on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line.

>Cherry-picking data-dump
That almost looks like an impressive number. But a few riots does not change the fact that after 150+ years of immigration there are now millions of Irish, Italian, and German Americans fully integrated as Americans and nobody left to be mad at them for not being white enough.
>racial segregation probably helped the south desu
Pic related. Of the three largest metropolitan areas in the United States, one of these cities is dealing with a much larger rate of violent homicide than the rest. Of these three cities, two of them are racially integrated, with historically black neighborhoods now gentrified and filled with white and latino residents. The other still sequesters the vast majority of its black residents into two massive ghettos in the west and south, which are blighted, deprived areas with failing schools and crumbling infrastructure, where selling drugs is often a youth's only long-shot ticket to a decent existence.

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>>2739477
>which just so happens to fit a moral narrative
There is no "just so happens" about it

You were on the wrong side of history. You let some freeloaders take you for a ride, and in the end all you had to show for it was a dreadful waste, like this anon >>2738116 pointed out.

The sooner you come to terms with this, the sooner you can begin appreciating southern culture for the things about it that actually make it great, and maybe begin the process of making that way, again

>>2739720

Well it looks like abolishing slavery lowered black wages so

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>>2739720
>maybe begin the process of making that way, again

If the former confederate states were a separate country they'd have a larger GDP than both germany and japan. It already is great.

>You were on the wrong side of history.

nice personal opinion. Considering what the north did with reconstruction and how the South didn't recover until WW2, the south would've been much better off having won independence.

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>>2739684
>But a few riots does not change the fact that after 150+ years of immigration there are now millions of Irish, Italian, and German Americans fully integrated as Americans and nobody left to be mad at them for not being white enough.
>integrating white people into a white country vs integrating black people into a white country

are you seriously trying to brag about how the North has been able to integrate fucking white people? jesus christ mate. How about they use their "superior culture" to integrate blacks as well?

>LA and NYC aren't segregated

kek

It was over who was to be master and nothing else.

>>2710344
Plantation owners forever ruined the south. Instead of importing enslaved Africans they could've just payed the many poor whites in the area a pittance and used them as labor. But no, they had to keep slaves and believed they could propagate this semi feudal, ass backwards agrarian economy forever.

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>>2741093
>how the North has been able to integrate fucking white people?
The point you're not wanting to get: You called them white people. You didn't go full WASP and go off on a wild, spittle flinging rant about how swarthy, "not white enough", Micks and Degos are ruining this country with their strange, foreign religion and their rape-culture and violent criminal ways. That's called "progress", even as you probably look at this picture and think "I don't want that person moving into my country because of his strange, foreign religion with his rape-culture and violent terrorist ways" because he belongs to an ethnic group which, in your mind, isn't "white" enough. Know-Nothings have been doing this since the founding of the country: bitch about immigrants and scapegoat them for the countries problems. The actual "Know Nothings" where a bunch of guys trying to convince people that the problem tearing the country apart in the 1850's wasn't slavery, it was Catholic immigrants. They didn't get very far.

>LA and NYC aren't segregated
Not nearly to the degree that Chicago is. Harlem, Brooklyn, and other historically segregated places have all gentrified and now have historical low crime rates
http://money.cnn.com/2016/01/05/news/economy/chicago-segregated/

>That chart
Oh, look at that, segregation in the south plummets right around the time in our country that insulated homes, air conditioners, and dirt cheap property values finally make the south an attractive place to move for wealthy Yankees. You really think that the same people who lived there in 1968 are there in 2015 cheering the Confederate flag being taken down? Because genuine white southern culture only remains in tiny pockets, the rest of it has been commercialized out of existence.

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>>2741085
>If the former confederate states were a separate country they'd have a larger GDP than both germany and japan. It already is great.
Then why is it so shitty?
>muh negroes
and we all know who put them there, right?

>Considering what the north did with reconstruction and how the South didn't recover until WW2, the south would've been much better off having won independence.
If the south had won independence then by WW2 it would have looked more like Rhodesia, and probably would have met a similarly horrible end.

>>2742356
>The point you're not wanting to get: You called them white people. You didn't go full WASP and go off on a wild, spittle flinging rant about how swarthy, "not white enough", Micks and Degos are ruining this country with their strange, foreign religion and their rape-culture and violent criminal ways. That's called "progress", even as you probably look at this picture and think "I don't want that person moving into my country because of his strange, foreign religion with his rape-culture and violent terrorist ways" because he belongs to an ethnic group which, in your mind, isn't "white" enough.

What the fuck are you going on about. Integrating white people isn't impressive, fuck off.

>Oh, look at that, segregation in the south plummets right around the time in our country that insulated homes, air conditioners, and dirt cheap property values finally make the south an attractive place to move for wealthy Yankees.

Or you know, when federal courts forced desegregation. Do you really think the south is mostly full of Yankees now? Then why wasn't isn't it blue during election season.

>Because genuine white southern culture only remains in tiny pockets, the rest of it has been commercialized out of existence.

This is true everywhere. Regional differences are dying everywhere. I didn't hear a single New England accent the last time I was there.

>>2710344
It was about slavery but only for the South.

The North didn't give a fuck and just hated the South and Lincoln felt the need to prove his dick was big.

There's the actual lowdown. Yankees need to do the fuck away with the fantasy that they waged some noble moralistic crusade.

t. Yankee

>>2742371
>Then why is it so shitty?
It's not...

>Map showing poor negroes in my state are 4% more likely to succeed than negroes in your state

Congrats?

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UNION SCUM BTFO

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>>2742539
>What the fuck are you going on about. Integrating white people isn't impressive, fuck off.
It's called "making new white people", something that southern culture hasn't done in a while.

>Or you know, when federal courts forced desegregation.
Which they bitterly resisted, and nowadays pretend like institutionalized racism is/was never a thing, instead of openly advocating for it.

>Then why wasn't isn't it blue during election season.
Because Yankees cluster in high wealth urban centers where they can be easily marginalized through gerrymandered districts, just like southerners have been doing to blacks for decades. Also, because in 2016 Democrats ran a shitty, corrupt, possibly criminal technocrat who went out of her way to be an arrogant cunt to her own base and still got 3 million more votes than the great orange hope, who won because of an arcane political institution put in place as a compromise which tilted the electoral playing field in the direction of slave states and still influences our democracy to this day.

>Regional differences are dying everywhere.
It's what they leave behind that counts: research hospitals, tech corridors, music forums, things that actually enrich people's lives, or decaying strip malls, suburban blight, and rising inequality?

> I didn't hear a single New England accent the last time I was there.
Because accents are more typically a sign of being low class or isolated from the rest of the world.

Preferable if the North were defended by something other and better than a oh-so-tolerant and grown-up SJW

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>>2742561
>Congrats?
Baby I got a whole gang of these maps
Worst teen pregnancy in the nation, Most tax-dodgers, most dependent on Federal aid, worst health, worst unhappiness:
http://www.thestandardrecord.com/10-miserable-states/
7/10 states in this list are southern or border states

The reason they're doing even as well as they are is because they have their Yankee big brother states propping them up.

>>2743192
>It's called "making new white people",
Just give it up you autist. My mother's grandparents were Arabs that immigrated to rural North Carolina in the 20s and easily assimilated into white society. Assimilating vaguely white people isn't some magical Yankee trait.

>Which they bitterly resisted, and nowadays pretend like institutionalized racism is/was never a thing, instead of openly advocating for it.
So are you just going to keep debating strawmen? What does that have to do with what I said? You were wrong and going off on some tangent instead.

>Because Yankees cluster in high wealth urban centers where they can be easily marginalized through gerrymandered districts

Clusters don't mean shit in statewide popular vote. Rich Southerners vote Republican. If you actually think a majority of upper class Southerners are Yankees you're dumber than I thought.


>Actually believing the electoral college was because of slavery
I feel you learn all of your bogus history from salon.com.

I live were northern liberal ideas clash daily with conservative southern ideas and lifestyles. I can tell you from experience on the conservative southern side that the greatest tragedy from the American Civil War was the absolute failure of reconstruction and what could have been.

>>2710344
im studying the outbreak and antebellum period in my US History class and realized that president Buchanan could have stopped it (or at least postponed it by a few years) if he used military action to forcefully stop the rebellion in South Carolina. Lincoln could have had an uneventful presidency and the Civil War would have been WAY different or not happen at all

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>>2743359
>Just give it up
Why would I do that? It's fun around spanking poor, confused lost causers. It's like a hobby to me.

>Assimilating vaguely white people isn't some magical Yankee trait.
Never said it was. Yankees just do it with vastly greater efficiency.

>So are you just going to keep debating strawmen?
For as long as you keep ignoring the nuances which make your "sourced" images so misleading

>>Rich Southerners vote Republican.
So do rich Yankees, so do I. What's your point? That I can't be a Yankee Republican who hates lost-causers for thinking that their welfare queens represent the epitome of the Free Market?

>If you actually think a majority of upper class Southerners are Yankees you're dumber than I thought.
No, just the younger generations which have fainter and fainter memories of Segregation Now! Segregation Forever!, mostly because their white middle income families moved there in the 80's or 90's.

>>2743452
>Why would I do that? It's fun around spanking poor, confused lost causers. It's like a hobby to me.
You just spout bullshit, get called out, and then move the goalposts and attack something else about the south. You're not as smart as you seem to think you are.

>Yankees just do it with vastly greater efficiency.

Do you even remember your original bullshit assumption? That white supremacy was a southern phenomenon during the civil war. When I questioned you on it, you instead went on some tangent about the North being special for welcoming white immigrants. Like WTF are you even talking about anymore haha.


>So do rich Yankees, so do I. What's your point? That I can't be a Yankee Republican who hates lost-causers for thinking that their welfare queens represent the epitome of the Free Market?

My point was that your claim that the upperclass south is mostly Yankees now is based on no evidence. Maybe if you weren't autistic you'd be able to follow a simple conversation yet you just spaz out and bitch about something else. You're shit at arguing. If I wanted to see autistic screeching and dailykos image macros than I'd go to Reddit.

>For as long as you keep ignoring the nuances which make your "sourced" images so misleading

Which one is misleading? Try and stay on topic now my little autist.

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>>2743565
>You just spout bullshit, get called out, and then move the goalposts and attack something else about the south. You're not as smart as you seem to think you are.
Stop projecting, you're embarrassing yourself. Try not to take your asskickings so personally

>That white supremacy was a southern phenomenon during the civil war.
No, I said that white supremacy, while present in all "white" cultures, was uniquely enshrined by the south in a way that it wasn't anywhere else, then provided examples to prove it, and then you started spouting memes and going full the_Donald

>My point was that your claim that the upperclass south is mostly Yankees now is based on no evidence.
I said educated and wealthy, not "upperclass". Bourgeois Yankees spent the better part of the past 40 years moving to places with low property values and they took their Yankee values and live-and-let-live attitudes with them, gradually outgrowing southern blueblood culture. You seem to be memeing as a compensation for poor reading comprehension skills.

>Try and stay on topic now my little autist.
says the one who is having a difficult time remembering what images he posted and needs the guy he's arguing with to help him out

>>2742356
>Harlem, Brooklyn, and other historically segregated places have all gentrified and now have historical low crime rates
Dude this is just flat untrue. All that happened is poor people got pushed to places like East New York, Westchester, and Nassau County where crime and squalor is the same as it ever was. The segregation is the same, the rings just expanded.

>>2744164
>Stop projecting, you're embarrassing yourself. Try not to take your asskickings so personally

nothing of value as usual

>white supremacy, while present in all "white" cultures, uniquely enshrined by the south in a way that it wasn't anywhere else
>provided examples to prove it

like what? prior to the Civil war, northern blacks were not enfranchised. There were even black codes controlling their movements around the north. The Union Military itself was heavily segregated. When Lincoln said the below, he was espousing White Supremacy.

> “I am not, nor even have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races—that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people…and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”


>Bourgeois Yankees spent the better part of the past 40 years moving to places with low property values and they took their Yankee values and live-and-let-live attitudes with them, gradually outgrowing southern blueblood culture. You seem to be memeing as a compensation for poor reading comprehension skills.

That's a pretty incredible claim to make without some evidence besides your usual insults. The south has been growing economically since the 40s so of course migrants from other parts of the country would move there. To somehow attribute this growth to Yankees coming and creating wealth is bizarre.

>says the one who is having a difficult time remembering what images he posted and needs the guy he's arguing with to help him out

You're upset that I asked you to back up your claim? lol nice cop out, do you ever proof read your ramblings?

>>2711420
Then why does SNP keep getting votes?

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>>2744280
>nothing of value as usual
still taking it personal like a whiny little bitch, I see

> the Civil war, northern blacks were not enfranchised...
Yes, that's just as bad as marching them out in chains into the cotton fields, whipping them for not meeting their quotas, buying, trading, and warehousing them like cattle, etc

>trusting things politicians say in the heat of the electoral season
Electoral politics had been so heavily skewed in favor of slave states that reformists were required to moderate their positions in order to escape the campaign of subversion that the cotton barons were waging against northern abolitionists. In all of his private correspondences Lincoln detested slavery and compared it to life under his illiterate lout of a father, who worked him tirelessly in order to get more beer money. The true irony of the civil war is that it was only under emergency wartime powers that Lincoln's dream of emancipating the slaves becomes in any way politically feasible, and it was only because the war lasted as long as it did that the U.S. Army came into possession of so many emancipated slaves that congress was strong-armed into passing the 14th amendment. Progress happens slowly

>that's a pretty incredible claim to make
I know, it requires researching moving trends in the country over the past 80 to 60 years. Something you obviously know very little about.

Lower property values, lower tax rates drives huge numbers of people looking for both of those things to move there. They move away from high property value, high tax states. How is this difficult for you to comprehend?

>I asked you to back up your claim?
No, you just started memeing when I began picking apart that info-graphic of desegregation that you were using in support of revisionism, and in fairness, I did digress.

>>2744164
>white supremacy, while present in all "white" cultures, was uniquely enshrined by the south in a way that it wasn't anywhere else
that's a load of horse shit. why did lincoln only outlaw slavery in the south and not the north? why did he want to ship them all back to africa? everybody was racist back then.

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>>2744655
>Yes, that's just as bad as marching them out in chains into the cotton fields, whipping them for not meeting their quotas, buying, trading, and warehousing them like cattle, etc

Dodging the argument again like always. Why are you accusing me of things I didn't say?

>Let me completely disregard statements by Lincoln I don't like

You can be against slavery and still be a white supremacist you know?

>I know, it requires researching moving trends in the country over the past 80 to 60 years. Something you obviously know very little about.
>"believe me I know my stuff"

great

>Lower property values, lower tax rates drives huge numbers of people looking for both of those things to move there. They move away from high property value, high tax states. How is this difficult for you to comprehend?

which is why everyone is moving to West Virginia lol, why is this even relevant to your whole culture argument?

>No, you just started memeing when I began picking apart that info-graphic of desegregation that you were using in support of revisionism, and in fairness, I did digress.

my info-graphic shows that the north is still very segregated, how is that revisionist? Also you "picking apart" was just some bullshit about yankee transplants instead of the obvious answer. Still ignored my point of the North suffering from the same segregation problems as the rest of the country. They are not uniquely special as assimilation.

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>>2744870
>Why are you accusing me of things I didn't say?
What I am accusing you of is not appreciating scale. Yes, there was white supremacy in the north, just like there's white supremacy in every white country. The difference is how much it affected public policy

>>Let me completely disregard statements by Lincoln I don't like
That's just an exercise in cherry picking legalism. You're taking things he said during a campaign season and not comparing it to his policy platforms, his private goals as expressed in his letters, and the things he did when given emergency war time powers, etc.

>You can be against slavery and still be a white supremacist you know?
And you can be a Yankee Republican who is glad that such spooks barely influence public policy any more.

>great
You're asking me to digress off topic again. Probably just so that you can start bitching at me for going off topic again when I go through the trouble of digging for sources. Especially when it's completely obvious how little research you've done on the matter.

>which is why everyone is moving to West Virginia lol
South Carolina, North Carolina, Texas, and Georgia are all doing very well, gradually catching up to the rest of the nation.

>, how is that revisionist?
It's misleading because the Yankee areas have vastly larger, denser, and more economically productive urban centers, and these places naturally attract huge numbers of migrating poor, which requires constant mitigation.

The rural south went out of its way to reinforce a wrongheaded social hierarchy until it was dismantled following the 1968 Civil Rights Act

>>2745068
> 1964* Civil Rights Act
Sorry, late night

>>2744703
>hy did lincoln only outlaw slavery in the south and not the north?
As part of a compromise package with slave owning states which stayed loyal to the union, he allowed them to gradually phase out slavery.

> why did he want to ship them all back to africa?
Probably because he thought that it would be a kinder, gentler fate than forcing them to coexist with southerners

But as soon as he got into office and looked at the actual cost of rounding up every last negro in the country and shipping them to Africa, he probably decided that it was more important to spend all that money trying to keep the union together.