The Problem With Modern Islam

One of the biggest beliefs the majority of Muslims have that contributes to the problems caused by Islam is the idea of "Dajjal", the Islamic version of the Anti-Christ. It was foretold that near the end of days, Dajjal would appear and lead mankind astray. Some believe he has already appeared, some believe he'll appear soon enough but nonetheless the majority of Muslims are on their toes that the world could end anytime...

...according to the hadiths, that is. Now if one were to refer to the Quran, when it comes to matters pertaining the end of days, the answer is simple. God knows. Literally that. No one really knows when the world's going to end. Could be soon, could be a billion years from now. And another peculiar thing is that for all the hadith that speaks of this "dajjal", none however were mentioned in the Quran itself. Not a single word of it. How can a figure so important in the Islamic eschatology be absent from the holy book itself?

Another fundamental error of Islam is how Muslims treat bad situations. For context, let's compare with Christianity.

Say a bad thing happens. A Muslim approaches his imam and a Christian approaches his priest. The imam would give the Muslim a prayer from the Quran to recite and the priest would give the Christian a prayer from the Bible to recite.

The Christian would recite, something like "The Lord is with you in these trying times, have patience." He'll accept it as it is, understand and strengthen himself getting through his troubles.

The Muslim, on the other hand, would most likely recite the prayer in Arabic without understanding any of its meaning. Say the meaning was identical with the Christian's prayer, a snippet that tells you to have strength, God is with you, but this isn't really what the Muslim expects. The Muslim expects that through this set of Arabic words, all his problems would go away through divine intervention. But what if it doesn't?

The Christians have a convenient way around it. "The Lord works in mysterious ways." The Muslims have none of this. If you have prayed and Allah isn't answering, then they believe they must've been bad Muslims, or rather, not Muslim enough.

And what happens when they're the most Muslim a Muslim can be and shit still happens as shit often would? They start blaming their neighbours, their city, their country, for they believe God punishes indiscriminately. There's no such thing as individual burden, there is no such thing as live and let live. To them, if your neighbour was a sinner and you did nothing about it you get punished as well.

Actual Islam derived from the Quran is vastly different than the Islam we have today. Modern day Islam outright contradicts actual Islam itself with corrupted hadiths and speculations taken as divine truth. These contradictions aren't limited to the extremists, all of mainstream Islam is guilty of this. All because nobody bothers to read the Quran themselves and nobody bothered figure out why they follow the hadith blindly.

All those criticisms equally apply to old-school Catholicism and even Buddhism ("real" East Asian Buddhism, not Western self-improvement bullshit.)

Not that this invalidates the criticism, but there's no exceptionalism here and your "Christianity" is just American protestantism.

>>2708820
In fact it's totally unsurprising that you can ask for a Muslim version of protestantism since you seem very fond of the way Christian protestantism resolves these sort of issues.

>>2708836
Not him but I think a Muslim version of protestantism actually makes more sense in the Islamic context than it does in the Christian context. The Bible does not claim to be perfect and stand alone, the Quran does.

>>2708866
That's certainly a fair point.

>>2708431
I agree with everything u wrote

>>2708431
Neat thread, anon.

>>2708431
>According to Ali who heard from Abu who heard from Ahmad who heard from Qasim who heard from Malik who heard from Jafar who heard from Shafiq who heard from Hamzah who was friends with the prophet, Muhammad once said so and so
Sounds kinda like the Mishnah

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>>2708431
>It's a quranist episode

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>>2708431
I wholeheartedly agree with what you have stated abive, yet not all hadith/sunna are false. How would one pray without these? Does this imply we can intoxicate ourselves? No, it does not. The majority of the Hadith are weak and based on nonsense. But surely we can't turn our cheek to the essential Hadiths out there.

However, what can we do about it? Modern day Islam differs from its golden times. As a reverent Muslim I would like to help if possible. We ought to seize this epidemic, and strive for the glory of our religion!

>>2708964
What do you think of the turmoil in North Africa and the Middle East?
Thoughts on the extremist attacks in Europe and America?
What's your opinion of Christians?

>>2708915
It's not a coincidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_tradition#See_also

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>>2709002
>What do you think of the turmoil in Northern Africa and the Middle East?
Currently most of the countries are going through a phase involving Westernisation. Its people want to immigrate to the United States and such. Another group is trying to avoid this, thus terrorist groups form that are against the West. The higher powers in these countries lust for power and money. Giving up its resources for their own pleasure.

>Thoughts on the extremist attacks in Europe and America?
People die in these; Muslims die, children die, innocents die et cetera. For what purpose would a Muslim do this? In the Quran it says, killing a man is like killing all of mankind. It is unlawful to kill, yet we do. For our very own materialistic desires. These acts should at once seize. Before 9/11 Islam was loved by the West, people reverted every single day to our religion. And now look what has become of it.

>What's your opinion on Christians?
Most Christians I find weak, they are untaught in their own religion, yet have decency to hate om other religions. I've got some Orthodox Christian friends, and they are more Muslim than Christian. They have pointed out that the boar too is unlawful, and that they have obligatory prayers. We have a lot in common, and we shouldn't fight with them. Sadly, they are losing their religion.

>>2708964

>How would one pray without these?

Same way we always have. We don't open up a book of hadith to learn how to pray. We learn from our family and teachers.

However, I'm not totally against hadith. Just that we should emphasize on putting the Quran first. Disregard whatever current practice that we have right now that goes against the teachings of the Quran.

>>2709002
>>2709091

When it comes to extremist, I would like to add on the current climate of Muslims in general.

From an early age, we are taught that it's next to impossible to get into Heaven. Have to pray 5 times a day, have to fast for a month, have to visit Mecca at least once a lifetime, etc. There are a lot of things to do and you get sins if you don't do them. For example, it's been said that the sin of not doing a single of those 5 times a day prayer is as heavy as the sin of fucking your own mother.

Having said that, almost literally anything is a sin. Simply put it's very hard to get into Heaven. There's no "just be a good person", there's no "accept Muhammad into your heart", there are specific things to do and if you don't do them you will be punished.

There is however a get into Heaven for free card, which is to die in a holy war. Given how hard it is and these suicide bombers are horrible people in the first place given that they're capable of such acts, it's so simple. Don't need to pray, can drink alcohol, don't need to fast, just blow yourself up and poof you're in Heaven. That's the narrative.

I'd also like to add that thought idolatry is a major no-no in Islam, Muslims nowadays have adopted idolatry in all but name. Muhammad was just a man. A messenger, and yet he's elevated to a point of complete and utter worship.

He's often depicted as this perfect, infallible being. Supposedly he was a man because it's something Muslims can strive to be, but currently it's something that Muslims look up to and whatever their failings can be attributed to "I'm not like the prophet"; an adage that is synonymous with "nobody's perfect".

Muslims might deny this, but to an average Muslim which is more offensive: Fuck God or Fuck Muhammad? By right, the former should've been more offensive but the latter would more likely get your building bombed. It's actually offensive to the average Muslim to imply that Muhammad was just a man given the task to deliver a message from God and that's it.

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>>2709143
This
However every Muslim that believes and has performed Shahadah will undoubtedly enter heaven. However the sins must be punished.

Also, there are many sins with the littlest things. But deeds are easily achieved as well, going to Makkah cleanses most sins (with the right intention). Reverting a non-Muslim provides a free card as well. There are many more as well.
But I do agree with what you have said, nicely said.

>>2709163
I don't know if your the OP, but what also kinda makes it worse is this shit would get you crucified if you brought it up. If you brought any of this up to the average Muslim or liberal, you'd be possibly attacked and socially ostracized for being an Islamaphobe. It's absolutely insane because these criticisms expressed in the thread are really valid critiques of Islam as a religion, not just /pol/ level "dirty sandnigger" stuff

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>>2709196
Not the guy you replied to, but it has happened before. A philosopher name Mohammad ibn Zakaria, or al-Razi was attacked for his provocative views. His books were destroyed and he was banished as an outlaw. Muslims should prioritise certain things. Of course the Prophet peace be upon Him was of essence. But the Creator goes above that. We ought to glorify God more than His messengers

>>2709225
I would say your definitely right. I think Islam sorta suffers from Christianity's influence. With Jesus being the Son of God as well as the prophet, he's worshiped. Muhammad might be a man to that Muslims aspire to be, but it seems like they can worship him in almost a Christ like manner when thats not whats supposed to happen.

>>2708820
there is exceptionalism. it is exceptional that middle eastern, african and south asian (not south east asian) muslims are the only ethno- religious group causing religious terrorism in europe and the west and it is exceptional that they are teh only ethno religious group seriously advocating against liberal, western values like seperation of church and state, freedom of religion , gender equality, and other core western values and instead wanting sharia law and islamic values.

>>2708431
>the enemies of Islam then planted hundreds of thousands of fake hadiths that were meant to make Islam and Muhammad look like savage barbarians;

hurr durr Islam isn't a savage religion ment for retarded barbarians, it was the joooz that tricked us!!!

>>2708431
I don't have anything to contribute to the thread but, my name is Qasim.

Kinda weird seeing it on 4chan of all places.

I don't see any flaws shown. Only complications.

>>2709291
Kek

Paki here. You guys have got everything right, people here learn how to read arabic but they dont know what it means.

>>2708958
He is right tho. The irony of islam is that 99% of its followers are heretics

There is quite a difference between 'modern' Muhammedian and modern day Muhammedian; first does not exist.

>>2708431
>As for the Quran, most Muslims aren't allowed to read it. No, they can only recite it in the original archaic Arabic language without understanding its meaning. See if you're a Muslim, you're discouraged to read and interpret it by yourself because as the dogma goes you might misinterpret it and get it wrong. Whatever Muslims know of Islam is through their Imam and whatever else the imam's imam say and so on and so forth.
Sounds exactly like Europe in the Middle Ages.

>According to Ali who heard from Abu who heard from Ahmad who heard from Qasim who heard from Malik who heard from Jafar who heard from Shafiq who heard from Hamzah who was friends with the prophet, Muhammad once said so and so.
>I don't even have to point out how and where this can go wrong. All of the recorded hadith dated to 200 years after Muhammad's death.
Sounds exactly like how the New Testament came to be.

>>2709694
The word "Muslim" isn't hipster enough for you?

>>2709196

I am the OP and I can tell you that any Muslim who openly say these things would get crucified. Figuratively or literally depends on which Muslim country you're from. Here it's sent to the camps for re-education. In some places, death.

Personally for myself when it comes to hadith, there are some that I choose to believe in and it's mostly historical anecdotes and context. There was a story of Muhammad that I read and this supposedly happened during one of the Muslim-Pagan wars during the early years.

During a battle, Muhammad was struck in the head by a rock and for a short while, believed to be dead. The other Muslims were disarrayed and when he came back up, he scolded them. He told them what does it matter if he dies. If he dies, then that is God's will. He was just a man whose job was to deliver God's message. Nothing more. There were actually a lot of accounts of Muhammad being characteristically a mere man: contemplating suicide, making mistakes, but mainstream Islam usually omit these to push that Muhammad was divinely perfect human being narrative.

>>2709291

Well Qasim this is /his/ after all.

Can I safely ask a muslim irl why the first mosques were facing Petra instead of Mecca, and why the description of Mecca in the Quran doesn't match with Mecca at all, but matches closely with Petra?

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>>2709832
At first the Prophet ordered his people to pray towards Jerusalem, after more revelations he changed it to Mecca.
In general Muslims pray towards a holy site, in the third chapter of the Quran it states that the first holy site was Jerusalem. Later it became Mecca. This is more related to the Hadith than to the Quran, but it is definitive. This took a lot of time too adjust, and people didn't know much of it and always thought it was thus Petra. However the Prophet's masjid near his house in Medina faced Mecca.

This also means that if Mecca were to get 9/11'ed (God forgive), we'd start praying towards Jerusalem, Medina, Damascus, Baghdad, Istanbule, et cetera

Hope this explains it

On a scale of 1-10 how likely are you to get acid thrown in your face if you're a quaranist?

>>2709832
>Can I safely critique the historicity of Islam around Muslims in real life?

Not if you want to live for an extended period of time.

I married into a Pakistani family and my wife and mother in law basically have the OP's attitude about the Quran and Hadith. We live in the US Midwest, so I've wondered if this is an attitude more common or at least safer to have in the West.

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>>2709832
You already know the answer you /pol/ack faggot, but you do unwittingly raise interesting questions about the way Muslims will deal with the inevitable wave of scholarly criticism they will recieve once they become normalized in the west. The subversive tendencies of our academic class mean they'll turn on the Muslims as soon as they cease to be a useful ally and/or become established.

I expect a lot of apostasies and murders will follow.

Saudis are the problem, Salafism/Wahhabism is the symptom, and the United States isn't helping.

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>>2710038
The al-Saud family just wants to snort coke and drive ferraris.

Their radicalized subjects force them to constantly jump through hoops to demonstrate just how pious they are, or risk having to deal with an uprising.

>>2708431
>As for the Quran, most Muslims aren't allowed to read it. No, they can only recite it in the original archaic Arabic language without understanding its meaning. See if you're a Muslim, you're discouraged to read and interpret it by yourself because as the dogma goes you might misinterpret it and get it wrong. Whatever Muslims know of Islam is through their Imam and whatever else the imam's imam say and so on and so forth.
They need a Second Vatican Council is what you're saying?

>>2710051
But they made it that way when they crawled out of the desert into the cities to take over the place and start bombing Muslim monuments.
They were so bad the TURKS tried to stop them from durkaing so hard.

They ruined Arabia.

>>2709916

Depends on how blunt you are and where you are. More moderate countries would label you as a heretic that needs to be reeducated, while the more conservative ones would have you to be an apostate and sentence death.

>>2709959

It is indeed safer to have in the West because of values such as free speech. In most Muslim countries anything that contradicts the prominent sect of the country is heavily censored and ostracized.

For example, here in a Sunni majority country, we're taught all sorts of lies about the Shia. We were told that Shia are heretics, Shia have deviant practices, etc. One prominent lie was a lot of Sunnis here believe that for Shia, Sunni blood is halal for them. All of these are from non-Shia sources. In actuality most had never met or know what Shia is all about.

In fact, it's rather ironic that these Sunnis who hate people getting their sources about Islam from non-Islamic sources and yet do the same to a different sect.

>>2710051
lel the al-saud are direct contributors. The current king Salman was the project leader/founder of the "bosnia & herzegovina saudi commission for relief". Same place they found hundreds of files about 9/11, like suspect/terrorist passport and group photos, air plane training manuals, blueprints, etc.

Saudi_High_Commission_for_Relief_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina

They unironically think they can con us with our money, and we unironically pretend we don't see it. It's not just about having traded together for a while or beat commies that one time, it's not even about iran. It's about the US bases in the region. Nobody likes each other but we pretend to play nice because they need guns & money, and we need a good spot in MENA & oil (although we are recently starting to need them less and less on that last front.)

>>2710130
Where was the timeline where we leave all secular powers like Iraq, Syria, and Libya be and just kick the Saudis in the teeth right after 9/11?

This is a nice, informative OP and from the lack of people claiming it to be made up nonsense I can only assume it to be mostly accurate. Thank you, OP.

A question, however. From OP's description, this seems to have more than a passing similarity to pre-Reformation Europe, which obviously came to an end when, well, the Reformation happened. For how long has this state of affairs been commonplace? Is this somehow a result of central islamic dogma remaining unchanged throughout the centuries, or is this already a result of previous reforms that have led it to this state? As a catholic I'm rather ignorant of the history of other religions, so I might be [and most probably am] mistaken in my perception that Islam has more or less completely avoided the growing pains that have plagued Christianity since the 16th century and the crushing burden of religious schism plus the general change of public perception when it comes to the dissemination of information and critical thinking. Which is doubly remarkable for a religion that has spread through such a large share of the world's population.

>>2709284
>hurr i can't make a good refutation

>>2710508
>hur islam was corrupted by its enemies even tho no one spoke their shitty arabic til they already btfo the southern mediterranean and had no serious challengers

>>2710524
Arabs had a presence in the Mediterranean.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabia_Petraea
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghassanids

>>2710457
Islam has had plenty of schism and the global Muslim population is mostly (excluding suffi and other schools of thought) split between two main sects. The difference is Islam never had a successful reformation like Christianity.

>>2708431

What are you doing man? If Muslims start following the Quran we are all fucked. At least with hadiths you can cherry pick the nice ones.

Islam lacks spirituality. It's only about purity of the body (don't eat pork, wear the veil, don't eat during ramadan). It's basically what Jesus was criticizing in the Bible.

I really think it's hard to be a muslim. I mean, first of, their countries got invaded and colonized by europeans (Christians) but even worse, pagan countries like Japan are actually more advanced. Having so much pride in their religion and seeing how it differs from reality.

>>2710877
>Islam lacks spirituality
Is this a new meme going around?

>>2709712
>Sounds exactly like how the New Testament came to be.
Pretty sure the New Testament (or at least parts of it) were put to paper 60 years after Jesus' death.

>>2710457
Islam may have never gone through a proper Reformation, but Islam as practiced by the Ottomans was extremely practical. Had they not collapsed and had Saudi Arabia not rose in influence, the Muslim world would be in a much better place.

>>2711459
Do you think the Ottomans would of ever reformed Islam?

>>2710877
>Islam lacks spirituality
what is sufism?

>>2711645
>what is sufism?
Based.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7m0dwswxLg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQbnQqhXFM

>>2710457
It's actually a misnomer that modern Islam has been stagnant since the Reformation of Christianity. Much of the issues the OP brought up are fairly recent developments in Islamic practice and popular religion (which has purposefully left behind early Modern traditional Islam).

OP, you sound like a Qur'anist. Which is a self defeating belief.

>>2709832
The first qiblas in mosque faced Jerusalem, not Petra. There are still some historic mosques that have two mihrabs, or walls that mark the direction, to Jerusalem and Mecca.

>>2710838

Here are some select verses from the Quran that every Muslim seems to fucking ignore:

>"There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing." - 2:256

No compulsion, can't force anyone to convert to Islam, can't force Muslims to follow Islam.

>"Say, "O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." - 109

An entire surah on leaving non-Muslims alone.

>"And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah, lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do." - 6:108

Don't start trouble or trouble looks for you, pretty straight forward.

>"Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did." - 6:159

>don't divide the religion into sects, k
>divide it anyway

>"And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?" - 10:99

Again, can't force Islam on anyone.

>>2712415
You mean every non-Muslim seems to ignore during their polemical tirade of Muslims "forcing" faith on people.

>>2711956

Personally I find hadith to be useful in certain situations like providing historical context. However, I find that placing hadith to the an almost if not the same level as the Quran to be dangerous. People often say that hadiths are elaborations on what verses of the Quran means, but a lot of hadiths are stand-alone and have no basis in the Quran.

Besides that, my point on how hadiths in general are dubious in nature still stands. Let me put it this way, for any Muslim, Quran is of divine origin. It's been said in the Quran that God would safeguard it from any corruption. If you were to compare a modern day Quran to a 7th century Quran, it is identical. For hadiths, however, no such promise was made. In fact, the only arguments I ever heard on the validity of hadiths that were transmitted orally for 200 years was that "people back then had photographic memory".

The argument that "people back then had photographic memory" has no basis in any historical or religious fact. It is a mental gymnastic literally invented to support the validity of hadith. Who's to say in the 200 years between the death of the prophet until it is written down, the hadiths were not changed? In fact, a lot of hadiths are actually ancient Arabic pagan beliefs attributed to Muhammad. There are even some that are adopted from other religion such as that bridge thing from Zoroastians.

>>2710457

A lot has happened that contributes to the turmoil in the Islamic world and the problems caused by Islam as a whole and this is one of them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_seizure

>Saudi King Khaled however, did not react to the upheaval by cracking down on religious puritans in general, but by giving the ulama and religious conservatives more power over the next decade. He is thought to have believed that "the solution to the religious upheaval was simple - more religion."[48]

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>>2708431
When is Islam going to get REFORMED?

>>2708964
>Does this imply we can intoxicate ourselves?
Anon, I ...

The problem isn't about "modern Islam". It's the people using their wealth and resources to cause instability in a region of the world for their own political interests, you're trying to fix something that is not broken. The extremism in the faith is a byproduct of the militant nature thrust upon on a people whose identity was Islam

>>2712594

The current system Islam have in place makes it next to impossible for reformation. The arabic word for innovation, bidaah, has negative connotations. Innovation, reformation, these are all bad words.

For Muslims that legitimately seek the truth about Islam, they will usually come to one of two conclusions: that Islam is bullshit as a whole and leave or they realize hadiths are bullshit.

For Muslims that chose to reject the hadiths, they would try to preach to their immediates on this truth that they had stumbled but usually to no avail. They will be told that they haven't studied Islam enough and don't know enough to have the qualifications to talk about it. But let's say this person does. Let say this person has a PhD in Islamic Studies and actually knows his stuff and still preach on the falsehood of hadith.

This person will be labeled as a heretic and would swiftly be punished. Anything that is even slightly deviant from what the mainstream Islam teaches is automatically labeled as heresy that is the work of the jews/zionists/dajjal/America. To say Muhammad was a mere messenger, hadiths are unreliable, anyway can read the Quran and intepret it on their own, is heresy.

>>2709284
>hurr durr

What did he mean with this?

>>2709723
Kek

>>2712415
What about the shitloads of verses that call for war against non-muslims?
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx

>>2712663

You have to take into context as well as see it from a Muslim's point of view, especially the early years. During the formation of Islam in 7th century, Islam was the underdog religion that was persecuted by the Arab pagans. It's true that there are a lot of verses regarding what awaits non-believers, but that is up to God to decide.

A lot of these fighting verses are not without restriction. In summary, if you're going down you shouldn't go down without a fight. That's what it means to fight. All of them don't outright say go out and kill any non-Muslim you see, rather if a non-Muslim attacks you, fight back. Otherwise the general idea of Islam is to avoid conflict altogether.

>>2712687
>the general idea of Islam is to avoid conflict altogether.
Thanks for your interpretation, but I think Islam promotes conflict based on current terrorism trends

>>2708431
Who were the enemies that corrupted the hadiths in your view?

>>2712702

Sure it does in its current form. End of the world prophecies, victim complex, strict dogmatic principles, I'm not disagreeing with you. Another thing we have in common is that we both want Islamic terrorism to end. However, the among the approach that's available I for one choose to spread the truth about the hadith. Think about it.

>>2712711

Ancient pagan Arabs. Islam at the very beginning was something that goes against everything that the Arabs of the time believed in. Historically they did everything they could to stop Muhammad and Islam from spreading. It had nothing to do with a group of people being inherently evil or some sort of designated villain, it's just people whose way of life was threatened and they tried to do something about it.

There were also other reasons to fabricate hadiths as mentioned here:

https://archive.islamonline.net/?p=5735

>>2712730
Sorry, but the satanic verses prove that Mohammed was not inspired by God,the religion of Islam can be interpreted as violent because it was spawned by the devil

>>2712749
God killed more people directly in the Bible than "the devil" ever did.

Some mix of Gnosticism and Satanism is the only logical choice to make if one actually reads the Bible and is determined to follow an Abrahamic worldview.

>>2712765
But Christ shed His own blood for your salvation

>>2712749

To be honest I rather not argue about matters regarding faith as I believe it is something that you can't really sway a person to one way or another.

Back to Islamic terrorism, the question is simple. What are you going to do about it? Try to weight out the options.

>Deus Vult

A vast majority of Muslims want this. ISIS wants this. Even I want it. Why? Get into Heaven for free card. Any jihad we have right now is not 100% legitimate and is often scrutinized and criticize, but a direct physical attack on Islam and Muslims is unanimously regarded as a justified jihad by all Muslims. From a realistic point of view, it would take literal divine intervention to get rid of 1/6 of the planet's population.

>Islam is the work of the devil/violent/etc

I've heard all sorts of arguments against Islam and some are quite convincing and you have very good reasons for these given our current circumstances. There have been people who left Islam for other religion or atheism but remember, for every pork-eating #FuckAllah apostate, there are hundreds if not thousands of Muslims who believe this to be an attack on Islam that fuels their violent narrative.

>educating Muslims and non-Muslims on fabricating hadiths

To me this the most pragmatic option to take. Fabricated hadiths are an established thing in the Muslim world but they are not the focus. It is one of the few things that Muslims would actually consider and take seriously, and regardless of your reason whether it's to save or destroy Islam, to me this the best way to do it.

>>2712780
the Bible says you shall know them by their fruit, and all I see from Islam is rotten fruit.

>>2712780
>From a realistic point of view, it would take literal divine intervention to get rid of 1/6 of the planet's population.
Technically divine intervention would only be necessary to do it without having more than a fair chance of taking the other 5/6ths along with it.

>>2710508
There's nothing to refute, it's a novel claim made without any evidence.

>>2712810

Let me put it this way in regards to faith in general.

Jesus Christ himself appears before a Muslim, a Christian and an atheist.

Jesus tells the Muslim what you're saying, that Islam is false and Christianity is the true religion. Jesus tells the Christian that he is no God and Allah is the one true God. Jesus tells the atheist that God, Heaven and Hell is real.

The Muslim won't automatically leave Islam and embrace Christianity. To him, what happened was a trickery of the dajjal or shaitan. He may have hallucinated the whole thing.

The Christian won't automatically leave Christianity and embrace Islam. To him,what happened was a trickery of the anti-christ or the devil. He may have hallucinated the whole thing.

To the atheist, he won't automatically embrace religion. He may have hallucinated the whole thing.

TL;DR when it comes to matters of faith it is an individual decision on what, how and why they believe an event or experience played out as there are many ways to interpret it. I can't convince you, you can't convince me. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.

>>2712835
>The Muslim won't automatically leave Islam and embrace Christianity. To him, what happened was a trickery of the dajjal or shaitan. He may have hallucinated the whole thing.
Or perhaps a more pressing concern, that the penalty for apostasy in islam is death

>>2712842

If I, a Muslim, have this experience and believe it to be legitimately Christ the Lord our Savior and God, I wouldn't care about the death penalty for I will be with Jesus in the Kingdom of Heaven anyway.

But anyway as I said before regarding the hadith, Quran says you can't force religion on anyone be they Muslim or non-Muslim, while hadith says kill apostates. One of the things that needs to be done is to reinstate the Quran in its rightful place and get rid of every single hadith that contradicts it.

>>2712865
The Koran is a terrorist manual that condones murder,slavery and genocide against those who do not accept islam, your prophet mohammed married and raped a child.

These are not the morals of divine guidance

>>2710550

lol. Most of what are called arab countries today are in the mediterranean

>>2712730

>Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Yahya ibn Ma`in related to us a hadith on the authority of `Abdur-Razzaq, who in turn had it on the authority of Ma`mar, who had it on the authority of Qatada, who had it on the authority of Anas, who reported: “The Prophet of God said, ‘Whoever says: There is no god but God, God will create for him for every word he utters of this formula a bird with a beak of gold and feathers of pearls.’” He continued with his story which would have taken up about twenty pages had he committed it to writing. Upon this Ahmad ibn Hanbal began to look in amazement at Yahya ibn Ma`in, and Yahay ibn Ma`in at Ahmad ibn Hanbal. Then Ahmad said, “Did you narrate this hadith?” Yahya replied, “By God! I never heard this hadith before this present moment.” The two remained quiet until he had finished his story. He then undertook to receive contributions and sat down and waited for the rest to come with their gifts, but Yahya ibn Ma`in beckoned to him with his hand. So he came supposing that it was a gift that he was about to give him. Yahya then asked him, “Who narrated this hadith to you?” He replied, “Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Yahya ibn Ma`in.” He retorted, “But I am Yahya ibn Ma`in and this is Ahmad ibn Hanbal! We never heard this story among the hadiths of the Prophet. As a matter of fact, it is nothing but a falsehood! Its authorities are not we!” Then he asked, “Are you Yahya ibn Ma`in?” He answered, “Yes!” He went on, “I constantly hear that Yahya ibn Ma`in is fool, a fact which I never realized until this moment.” Then Yahya ibn Ma`in said to him, “How did you know that I was a fool?” He replied, “You act as if there is no other person by the name Yahya ibn Ma`in and Ahmad ibn Hanbal. As for me, I have recorded hadiths on the authority of seventeen persons by the names Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Yahya ibn Ma`in.” Then Ahmad placed his sleeve over his face and whispered [to Yahya], “Let him leave.”

Kek

>>2712730
>>2713029

tfw Islam was undone by ancient shitposters

What do you ask a man who's just converted to Islam?

>>2713039

To place the Quran above the hadiths and whatever that is taught by imams.

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just detonate yourself bro, and you will be granted 72 ugly virgins

>>2713039
Have you started beating your wife?

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shall we?

>>2713054

What, because he was a pussywhipped bitch before he converted to Islam?

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>You are power incarnate
>Your wealth complete, Your mind and Its will entrenched within the masses
>You are laced within enforced dogmas which cohere and stabilize or separate and dissolve
>dogmas which form collective hierarchies of owned individuals who oversee, indoctrinate, and maintain Your order
>You mold their belief, intention, personal resource and capacity, social contact, identity in accordance to You
>the more intrusive Your authoritarian lace be, the less they are It and you are The.
>their body, mind, will, identity a component of your own
>an ever-intrusively addictive taste of divinity

>>2713173
Your* own

>>2713173
You* are

>>2711563
Ever heard of the Tanzimat reforms of the Ottoman Empire

>>2713039
One can't convert to Islam
t. Muslim

>>2708431
The problem with Islam is there's no definitive rules or codes, aside from some basic shit like praying or believing Muhammad is a prophet.

That means anyone can come up with any ideology they want and claim it's a legitimate form of Islam. When you have powerful oil states like Saudi financing "their" interpretation, which also happens to be the most violent and radical interpretation, you get the most violent form of Islam dominating the Islamic world internationally.

There are interpretations of Islam that are uber-pacifist but they don't really get much international attention or spokesmanship.

>>2712627
Reformation is not the same thing as innovation, retard, it is the opposite of innovation

>Anything that is even slightly deviant from what the mainstream Islam teaches is automatically labeled as heresy

It is usually the Salafis, who are outside of mainstream Islam, that accuse everyone else of heresy. Mainstream Muslim scholars usually avoid making such accusations

>Muhammad was a mere messenger, hadiths are unreliable, anyway can read the Quran and intepret it on their own

Literally every single Muslim without exceptions believes these things.

>>2713364
What makes you think that?

>>2713430
For everybody is born a Muslim until they have reached their adolescence. Thus one can only revert back to Islam.

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>>2713453

>>2713425
>Literally every single Muslim without exceptions believes these things.

That's a lie.
Most Muslim can't tell what commandment is from the Quran or the Hadiths. Also most of them idealize the Prophet as some sort of Christic figure. OP is right.

>>2708431
They need some autistic german to nail the quran to the ISIS leader's forehead and kill each other for 20 years.

>a whole thread of BS
>/his/ really demonstrating they don't know shit

the fact that posters on here ate up "hadith is bullshit" and "muslims arent allowed to read the quran" really shows how much of an ignorant space this board is.

>>2713733
>Most Muslim can't tell what commandment is from the Quran or the Hadiths

That doesn't mean that they do not believe that anyone can read the Quran and intepret it on their own.

>Also most of them idealize the Prophet as some sort of Christic figure

They just think that he is an example for Muslims to follow. This belief is based on the Quran (see verse 33:21)

>>2713779

ISIS are the Protestants (specifically the Puritans) of Islam.

>>2713804
Wasn't ISIS a doomsday cult trying to bring about the day of judgement so the world can end and they can all be martyrs?

>>2713792
Muslims are allowed to read, but only arab priests are allowed to interpret!

>>2713804
>They just think that he is an example for Muslims to follow.
And they also treat him like an idol. The example that is attached to him according to the Hadiths is also barbaric and violent.

>>2712415
Later verses overrule earlier ones. All the nice stuff is towards the beginning and all the nasty stuff is towards the end.

>>2708820
>all those criticisms apply to old-school Catholicism
That's exactly the point. Catholicism has evolved past that, Islam hasn't.

>>2713808
Yes.
ISIS are actually the Munster Anabaptists of Islam.

>>2713804
ISIS is the fundamentalist suicide cults from Texas.