>590 BC >Solon attempts to reform Athens because the citizens

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>>2691090
The only ridiculous thing about Greek debt is that it has skyrocketed absurdly thanks to modern financial instruments and rating techniques.

It's much like Zimbabwean hyperinflation. What the hell does it mean, in real world terms, for a currency to be inflating "at a rate fo 79,600,000,000% per month"? It means there's a fucking bug in the Forex software because it wasn't designed to handle this sort of case, yet the lunatic bankers decided to take the meaningless output at face value and feed it back into the same buggy calculation loops, compounding the error.

There are serious reasons to think that the Greek debt situation is not that bad. Krugman has expressed the view, and the guy below has wagered $4 billions on his analysis:
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/12/10/greece-largest-private-debt-owner-says-greek-debt-is-much-lower-than-we-think-video/

“We started buying bonds at the time of the double election (May 2013) at 11.40 [cents to the dollar] and we are one of the largest private Greek bond holders if not the largest,” he told Greek Reporter.

He also developed his own accounting method that uses “very tough international standards” and this is why he says that Greece is A+. “I spent tens of millions of dollars to develop this method, something that credit agencies cannot do,” he said.

Kazarian believes that the Greek debt is not 177% of GDP but rather 71% of GDP, claiming that “the level of Greece’s debt is the lie of the century.”

For the 61-year-old investor, the Greek debt should be measured not at face value, which is 312 billion euros in 2015, but on a time of repayment basis, which would bring a substantial write-off due to low interest rates and the fact that its repayment will start in 10 years. The extended repayment time is more important than the actual amount of debt.

>>2691134
Wtf u talking about tinfoil head

>>2691231

He's saying that the long term expected value of the debt is 77% of GDP. The nominal value if all the debt were to be sold today, would amount to 177% of GDP.

This is possible if low interest rates did not keep pace with inflation, meaning the debts could have negative interest, and be smaller when the repayment comes due.

We are a small country of 10million people. What have we done to make you all so angry?

>>2691231
Isn't it obvious?

>>2691323
I heard that not paying taxes is very common in Greece. I'm willing to pay taxes in order to support my country in helping Greece pay off its debt for the sake of European solidarity, but if the Greek state being in debt is grounded in taxes just not being raised effectively, despite them being able to be raised effectively, if the state just wanted to, then I feel betrayed and used.

Also, my history teacher told me that Greek archaeologists are ruthless in digging down to the Classical Era, destroying all archaeological artefacts in above layers. If Greece is the birthplace of European civilization and Greeks destroy the majority of historical artefacts to make a quick buck off their Classical Era image, then I feel like Greeks are destroying my heritage, too.

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>>2691134
wadiyetalkinabeet

Can't speak for the past but present day it's because the global banking system, and especially the EU, is just a giant debt machine. We've gotten to the point where people aren't even worth an already arbitrary currency amount, you're worth the even more imaginary concept of debt. Can't find the picture right now but the average Westerner is worth about $50,000 USD of debt. But debt is an inherently unstable asset because most people will tend to pay it off rather than accumulate more. So the only choice is to create more debt, either by directly importing people to areas under your control, or expanding your control to other areas. Why do you think the EU keeps adding dirt-poor backwaters to it? For peace and love? No, it's because that means one more country that they can replace the currency in and get all of its citizens into their debt machine. Rinse, repeat. Of course it can't go on forever, and one day the whole house of cards will come crashing down, but the people benefiting from it today don't give a shit because they'll probably be long dead by the time it happens.

It's a speculator market taken to the extreme. I mean Christ on the Cross, nations have their own credit scores for fuck's sake. The entire global economy is literally founded on DEBT. It isn't founded on material worth (like gold or silver), and it isn't founded goods produced or services rendered. It's entire foundation is based around a person/corporation/nation's ability to loan money it doesn't have and either repay it or have enough debt-vassals of its own to keep the GDP artificially inflated.

>tl;dr
Greece is just another victim of the Eternal Banker

>>2691444
> and especially the EU,
Why "especially" the EU?

>is just a giant debt machine.
What's that supposed to be?

>you're worth the even more imaginary concept of debt.
Why is that "even more" imaginary?

>Can't find the picture right now
Are you basing this post on silly image macros?

>the average Westerner is worth about $50,000 USD of debt.
What's that even supposed to mean, to be "worth X debt"? Is that supposed to be the amount of debt someone tends to get? That which someone can get?

>Why do you think the EU keeps adding dirt-poor backwaters to it? For peace and love? No, it's because that means one more country that they can replace the currency in and get all of its citizens into their debt machine.
How does one turn "a country's currency into a debt machine"? Did debt not exist before? How does what the EU does differ from what any other statelike entity in the world does? Which EU are you referring to?

>I mean Christ on the Cross, nations have their own credit scores for fuck's sake.
What's so bad about that? What do you think credit scores reflect and are supposed to reflect?

>The entire global economy is literally founded on DEBT. It isn't founded on material worth (like gold or silver),
Sounds like you are a proponent of a gold standard. What's your opinion of fiat money?

>entire foundation is based around a person/corporation/nation's ability to loan money it doesn't have and either repay it or have enough debt-vassals of its own to keep the GDP artificially inflated.
When do you think this supposed scenario started?

>>2691541
>Why "especially" the EU
Because the EU is a political hegemony with the express purpose of creating a common economic zone.
>What's that supposed to mean?
Exactly what I said: a debt machine. A means to create debt and therefore imaginary wealth for the creditors.
>Why is that "even more" imaginary?
Because debt does not exist. The concept itself of owing money to someone is not imaginary. The concept that the fact that you owe money to someone is itself worth money is what's imaginary.
>Are you basing this post on silly image macros?
No, I'm basing it off of simple economic theory.
>What's that even supposed to mean, to be "worth X debt"? Is that supposed to be the amount of debt someone tends to get? That which someone can get?
Why do you keep asking what I meant? I was very clear. The average European or American has about $50,000 USD of debt. Some have more, some have less.
>How does one turn "a country's currency into a debt machine"? Did debt not exist before? How does what the EU does differ from what any other statelike entity in the world does? Which EU are you referring to?
You don't turn a country's currency into a debt machine. However, by absorbing a country into the EU you do away with their previous currency and introduce your own. You convert their debt into your debt, and as I explained earlier, debt is a means of artificially inflating the value/GDP of the creditors.
>What's so bad about that? What do you think credit scores reflect and are supposed to reflect?
It's a reflection of the fact that debt is no longer even a consumer problem.
>Sounds like you are a proponent of a gold standard. What's your opinion of fiat money?
I'm not necessarily in favor of the gold standard. It is also vulnerable to artificial inflation, I'm simply acknowledging that it is tied to a physical object that can be measured.
>When do you think this supposed scenario started?
You can't really put a date on it. Probably 1700s or so.

>>2691541
>>2691608
And I don't mean to say the European Union are the only ones taking part in this vicious cycle. There are other ways of extending control over another nation's debt. The pound sterling and USD, in addition to the Euro, are some of the most common international currencies. Multinational companies and banks will almost always deal through these currencies. And you don't have to be a citizen of a particular corporation's home country to sell your debt to them. Banks and other lending services, as many people know, often own other banks, and those banks in turn can own their own.

It's like a big pyramid scheme. You know that common saying that you've got to spend money to make money? Well I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, and yet it is often hammered into our heads at birth. Most Westerners grow up thinking that if you ever want to own a business, or go to school, or get a high-paying job, you're going to have to borrow money. In that way, it's like a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes often fool the naive by claiming that if you just pay them say $1000, they'll give you enough capital that you can go and sell it at a profit and make $10000. But, at the end of the day, the only person making any money is the guy at the top, and maybe the people a few steps below him.

I don't mean to sound like a communist or something, but that's just the way the world works.

>>2691134

>Citing Krugman

You know he was a "special economic advisor" to Enron? It's hilarious the most popular leftist economist has that on his resume.

>>2691541
>>2691608
>>2691630
And one final addendum: I'm not saying that this is somehow a new phenomenon. It isn't. It has existed probably as long as the concept of currency has existed. There has always been usury, there has always been debt. However, in the past, it was much less efficient. Globalism and modern banking institutions are much more efficient at it, but the problem is that it is unsustainable at its current rate. In the days prior to these global banking economies, recessions and depressions were based more on declines in production or taxation, not due to overspeculation and debt.

Think of the world economy prior to these giant international banks and stuff as a lumberjack with his axe. He cuts down wood around the village for firewood, tools, houses, etc. He does it at a pretty slow rate, and if he's conscious he might even plant trees for every one he cuts down. In this way, the village will always have a forest from which they can gather wood.

Think of these giant institutions that exist only to perpetuate debt as that giant mechanical wood chipper from Avatar. It plows through the forest and grinds everything in its path into sawdust. Then imagine that for every tree it cuts down, it gets just a little bit bigger.

>>2691608
> The concept itself of owing money to someone is not imaginary. The concept that the fact that you owe money to someone is itself worth money is what's imaginary.
I don't understand why there's a difference in degree of being imaginary. Actually, I don't understand how there can even be a difference of degree there in the first place. Being imaginary sounds like a binary concept to me. You either are imagined or not.

>Why do you keep asking what I meant? I was very clear. The average European or American has about $50,000 USD of debt.
You could've meant debt capacity, i.e. the amount of money institutes would be willing to lend, you could've meant actually existing debt, i.e. the amount of money private individua ore owing, you could've meant both private and public debt...

>and as I explained earlier, debt is a means of artificially inflating the value/GDP of the creditors.
Why is it "artificially" inflating the value, rather than "actually raising" the value/GDP? They are not just integrating the debt, but the production capabilities, too.

>It's a reflection of the fact that debt is no longer even a consumer problem.
Haven't credit scores always existed in some form? They are just attempts to guess how capable an entity is of paying back debt. Surely, even in ancient times, a king or republican committee wouldn't just lend out money without making sure that the debtor is able to pay back the money by asking around how the debtor's economy is, e.g. by asking traders that have dealt with the debtor in the past.

>>2691630
>Most Westerners grow up thinking that if you ever want to own a business, or go to school, or get a high-paying job, you're going to have to borrow money.
You definitely need some money to start out. About 5k€ nowadays, even for small firms, which is much less than in the past, but still: not everyone just has 5k lying around to get the licenses, machines, personel, etc. to start up one's firm. Most people would have to borrow mone.

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>>2691231
>>2691406
>& Humanities

>>2691444
>It isn't founded on material worth (like gold or silver),
this is even spookier than the concept of debt

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>>2691134
>there's a fucking bug in the Forex software
wrong, forex doesn't control the market, the black market would pick up the slack if they were even a few pips out
>>2691444
your argument is flawed, most debt is due to governments and businesses, not personal debt, also I don't recall an immigration lobby funded by banks, you are obviously from /pol/ and this is a bizarre debt-conspiracy tirade with immigration thrown in

>>2693559
what is spooky about debt

>>2691090
same thing rest of space and time just look at the last grandmaster of the knights templar being burnt to the stake because the king of france aligned to the pope wanted "Debt forgiveness"