Now that the dust has settled, was it murder or tyrannicide?

Both, though just because Caesar was a tyrant doesn't mean he was a bad ruler. He did many good things, but posed a threat to Senatorial elites and thus had to be rid of.

>senatecucks will defend this
good proletarii

>>2687041

Well it was obviously a murder, tyranicide may be a justified murder but it's still straight up killing a dude.

If you mean was it justified, yes, absolutely, and Caesar himself would have approved. Those who grasps for absolute power always respect praxis over theories and fine rhetoric.

what if everyone was wrong and they all fucked it up

>>2687124

It would be interesting to see which way Caesar would have gone. No civil war, or a short one, since he and Mark Anthony were bros. Maybe he would have been a great First Emperor, better than that sisterfucking psycho cuck who got the job in his place.

Is this, dare I say, /worsttimeline/?

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>>2687041
To classify a leader as "tyrant" it must meet two conditions:

1)(S)he must be cruel
2)(S)he must be opressive

There is general consensus that Ceasar the elder was oppressive. However, one must ask oneself wether or not he was cruel, especially when looking through his time frame, not ours. He was a cunning and hard general, but also a forgiving one who respected his enemies. He went out of his way to pardon his opponents after the civil war. He was even shocked and horrified when he was presented with the head of his nemesis, Pompey. His short lived rule was harsh, but more than fair to the plebs so from a utilitarian point of view his rule was "good". It is therefor my believe that he was not a tyrant, merely a dictator. His death was therefor a murder, not tyrannicide

>>2687139
>implying Augustus wasn't a god tier leader

Marcus get off of this board

>>2687139
>I get my historical info from TV shows

>>2687160

He was a skilled manipulator of those less intelligent than himself, yes. He certainly learned that from his uncle, but Caesar was a narcissist not a psychopath, and while he considered himself the main character of history he wasn't without feeling of compassion. Cuckgustus would have made a fine right hand man for Caesar, doing the nasty dirty work that Caesar doesn't want to be associated with and left the governing and founding of the empire to someone with more intelligence and compassion, ie, a Caesar who wasn't assassinated.

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>>2687178
>>he was a akilled manipulator
>implying that's bad

>>2687142
Good answer

>>2687142
That's not what a Tyrant is in the classical mindset.

It's more someone who has taken or assumed power that is not legally theirs.

>>2687192

It's a very useful trait, but there's more to being a great figure than that. Caesar could both manipulate AND empathize, making him twice the overall statesman.

>>2687041
Both and it was an utter mistake. Nobody in history has ever misread a political landscape as poorly as Caesar's assassins.

>>2687195

Nonsense, at least google the damn word before you correct people about it. A tyrant is simply someone who rules with absolute power, historically these people were appointed by the state to rule during a crisis and were thus entirely legal.

>>2687216
...
again, you're using the modern understanding of the word. Not the classical one.

A dictator -in Roman law- is appointed legally. They are not a tyrant. They become a tyrant, if they go beyond the limits that are legally opposed upon that office.

>>2687216
>words can't change in meaning over time

>>2687160
>falling for the Emperor meme

>>2687195
This.

>>2687216
Tyrant has several definitions that are used loosely, most with negative connotations but not inherently and individual of the dictator position used by Romans in time of emergency.

>The word "tyranny" is used with many meanings, not only by the Greeks, but throughout the tradition of the great books." The Oxford English Dictionary offers alternative definitions: a ruler, an illegitimate ruler (a usurper), an absolute ruler (despot) or an oppressive, unjust or cruel ruler. The term is usually applied to vicious dictators who achieve bad results for the governed. The definition of a tyrant is cursed by subjectivity. Oppression, injustice and cruelty do not have standardized measurements or thresholds.

>>2687238
Thanks man

>>2687216
No, he is quite right

>tyrant (n.) c. 1300, "absolute ruler," especially one without legal right; "cruel, oppressive ruler," from Old Frenchtiran,tyrant(12c.), from Latintyrannus"lord, master, monarch, despot," especially "arbitrary ruler, cruel governor, autocrat" (source also of Spanishtirano, Italiantiranno), from Greektyrannos"lord, master, sovereign, absolute ruler unlimited by law or constitution," a loan-word from a language of Asia Minor (probably Lydian); Klein compares EtruscanTuran"mistress, lady" (surname of Venus).

The problem with the etymology of the word tyrant is that it's used interchangeably with bot "sovereign" and "autocrat" when todays semantics of the word "tyrant" are different from those words.

So the question to OP is here: Do we use the classical semantics of tyrant (sovereign/autocrat) or the modern semantics (a cruel sovereign/autocrat)?

>>2687216
>historically these people were appointed by the state to rule during a crisis and were thus entirely legal.

I think you're thinking of dictators.

Today dictator and tyrant share a connotation, not then.

>>2687267
>>2687277
>>2687265
>>2687238
>>2687224

lol no a tyrant is anyone who rules with power that isn't given by the people. get that into your heads inbred euyos.

>>2687041
>not democratically elected by the population

Tryannicide. It's always just to kill a tyrant

>>2687142
>unelected
>warmonger
>xenophobic and genocodial
>rapist

yeah he a tyrant

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>>2687335
>he doesn't know that words can have multiple meanings and/or change semantically given time

>>2687356
t.cuck

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>>2687346
>unelected
True
>warmonger
Completely normal during his time
>xenophobic and genocodial
Completely normal during his time
>rapist
That literal standard of his time

Positives outweigh him though
>good to his people and the plebs
>conquerer of rome
>respectful towards his (roman) enemies
>though dictator, he still respected the Senate

>>2687382
>i-it's okay to suck a tyrant's cock because everyone is doing it!

all tyrants are bad. no exceptions.
>Expands the dole and encourages dole munchers
>genocides civilians for no reason
>hunts down those who oppose him
>vain enough to have his kid make him a god

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>>2687366
Just get out, you're embarising yourseld

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>>2687389
>it's oke because everyone WAS doing it
You can't morally judge historical figures using todays morals. It was quite literally how things were, that's why it's oke. You have to judge using their moral timeframe, not ours.

>>2687415
t.cletus

How's the 'south will rise again' truck doing?

>>2687415
>HITLER WASN'T BAD! EVERYONE HATED JEWS, WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL?!!!

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>>2687216
lelno, Tyrant is a greek term. It was essentially an amoral term to describe someone who would seize power without being elected by the assembly. It sounds bad from our modern perspective but early greek society wasn't quite like that. Often a tyrant would arise when the assembly was unable to elect an archon and the polis entered in period of chaos. For example peisistratos the athenian tyrant took power after years of Athens being caught in "anarchia" for years (without archonship) and he probably was one of the most benevolent despots of ancient greece. The term started to get a negative connotation (mostly in athene) right after his death when his sons hipparchus and hippias took over and were far less skilled and benevolent that him, leading to the assassination attempt by the tyrannicides and the emergence of cleisthenes who turned athens a democracy. But tyrants kept operating in greece for centuries, many of all kinds and it was still generally accepted.

Dictator comes from the romans, and that was a safety mechanism by the early roman republic when the two consuls couldn't agree on anything during a crisis to appoint/elect a temporary strongman for a maximal period of 6 months to fix a specific problem. It was a throwback to the regal period from which the roman republic emerged, there were many dictators before julius who did their job admirably and stood down. You can think of it more like an "antiquity martial law" safeguard than an actual dictatorship.

Obviously in our modern understanding, both terms have become interchangeable but they both carry very different histories and functions.

>>2687335
>>2687277
You're right when you say a tyrant used to define someone who seized power without being elected, but he is also right when he says a dictator was someone who was elected/appointed by the republican senate in times of crisis.

Both terms come from different civilizations. They are not the same things.

>>2687435
Except that that's not true. We have a lot of historical records to show that his behavior was not morally right during his time. Unjust comparison.

>>2687435
But Hitler is part of OUR modern era, it's okay to judge him by our standards. You can't apply the same logic to people who existed 2700-2000years ago during the fucking iron age.

>>2687047
>euyos believe this

>HE

>>2687041

From my perspective, it is the patricians who are tyrants

>>2688455
>WAS

>>2688471
A CONSUL

>>2687389
>judging every historical figure by modern moral standards

Why even study history at all if we are at the pinnacle of moral development and everyone before us were violent barbarians?

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>>2688487
OF ROME

>>2688524
there isn't imo
you're all nerds

The senate was no better than Caesar.

>>2687178
>>2687201
holy shit this is what happens when you learn ancient history from BBC Rome

>>2688804
t.nerd

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>>2687041
Murder, he was the legitimate ruler of the people.

>>2690590
>unelected tyrant
>legitimate

>>2690665
stfu cato no one likes you

Definitely Tyrannicide.

The moment Gaius crossed the Rubicon with his legions was the moment he became a tyrant.

Why was Marcus Bubulus so dormant during his reign?

>>2692228
lol no

>>2690699
>Rexlover

Disguisting

>>2692284
He was suppressed by Pompey.