Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth

Liberum veto

>>2676783
Germans not being retards in diplomacy and Austrians.

>>2676783
Not modernising the army and not conscripting peasants.

>>2676957
This, which became a real issue when every surrounding power (Prussia, Austria, Russia) is trying to nab pieces of your territory

also I dont get the logic of allowing foreigners to stand for your royal elections

>>2676787
This.

>>2678437
Don't forget Sweden and the Ottomans, they also were problems for PL.

>>2676783
Poles and Lithuanians

>>2676787
Liberum veto worked fine for a long long time until one guy suddenly used it (happened before) then left. After some time the speaker decided to stop the session. That's how it all began.

But international disputes were the real issue. Too many enemies. The Commonwealth won so many great victories and what came out of it?

Also elective monarchy was a mistake.

>>2676787
This.

>>2676783

The true reason was the economic decline of two social classes that held the country together and bore the most of burden. First was the cities and secondly the middle landed nobility.

When the burghers and then the nobles declined, the country became essentially a playground of three dozens or so magnate families who had everyone else in their pockets and deliberately used the country's political institutions to keep it unworkable. Everything else,starting with liberum veto and ending with the terminal decline of the army was the symptom, not the cause.

>>2676783
The deluge happened.

>>2676783
Probably your mom lol

>>2676783
Nothing was right in the first palce.

>>2682487
Explain bitch ass cracker

>>2676783
It became way to decentralized. No, one noble family was able to dominate the other ones enough to effectively govern the nation

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PONIATOWSKI GIVE ME BACK MY EMPIRE


REEEEEEEEE

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>>2676787
>>2680064
what exactly about the parliament in the Commonwealth? idk seemed pretty stable for the first few years

Descentralization works nice when you're like America surrounded by Oceans and weak enemies to the north and south, or like Italy and Spain, separated by mountains.

Descentralization doesn't work when you're surrounded by Prussia and Russia with no natural borders with either of them.

Lithuanians.

Everything they touch collapses. See:

The Commonwealth
The USSR
The EU
Lithuania
Anything made in Lithuania
Areas of Western Europe inhabited by Lithuanians

And not forgetting the suicide rate - also Lithuanians

>>2682748
Everything had to be passed unanimously. And since any member of the sejm could just stop the entire meeting right there and throw everything away, it was super easy for e.g. Russia to just bribe a local noble to sabotage the proceedings and prevent reform. And to make it worse they only met once a year if that. The central government became so impotent that eventually power devolved to local sejms and magnates, and the Commonwealth devolved into anarchy. This left them weak internally and powerless to resist the three partitions that would lead to the end of the independent Polish state for over 120 years.

>>2682882
>t. Pzsek Pzekovski

>>2676783
needed 8 more years to ally with Napoopan and fuck everyone up

nobility
the dumb fucking lazy good for nothing avarage noble
with its privileges (actual ones) and ZERO contribution, they didnt even fucking fight which presumable allowed them to enjoy such rights

rights, positions, power that are not earned but inherited are cancer

>>2676787
FPBP

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>>2676783
I don't know (never interested me) but when I asked my Lithuanian friend she said

"I don't know. But it was probably the Polish. The Polish always do something"

Lithuanian hate a cute

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>>2682882
t. Pzekovski

Reminder that most of the money, power and land was Lithuanian until the Polish fucked it all up

>>2682487
Yes one of the major powers of Europe was not right because...oh because it's eastern european right you butthurt islam loving faggot?

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>>2684431
way to bring Islam into this. cheers

>>2684306
Kek
Is that why Shituanians gave so much land away in the Union of Lublin?

>>2676783
Polish were ultimately pretty shit at the whole psuedo-empire deal
Lithuanians were pretty subversive despite starting off with more stuff
Russia wanted their land, so Russia took their land
The HRE did not care for them, especially when they meddled
The Ottomans really enjoyed bullying the Polish (and the Hungarians, but they got inherited by the Hapsburg)

Basically it was filled by people who weren't good at running it and surrounded by people who didn't like it

>>2684744
>Union of Lublin
>Controlled by Polish
Not him, but.... sounds like a landgrab to me

>>2684776
Penis

>>2676783
They were aggressive to the innocent introverted Russians to the east, who were then made eternally pissed-off (and autistic obviously) after the PLC prodded them one too many times.

Basically the PLC is fully responsible for everything the Russians have committed in the past many centuries.

>>2685504
The descendants of the PLC now act like innocent dindu nuffins who act like they don't know why they had it coming to them.

>>2684764
You're thinking PLC was a punching bag while it wasn't an usually won its wars. The problem was their intensity,

>>2676783
>What went wrong /his/?
Liberalizing their political system into a dysfunctional mess right after eternally pissing their neighbors off.
/thread

Though nobody will deny that it was a wonderful experiment. Good while it lasted.

>>2685504
Wasn't it the innocent Russians who kept attacking Lithuania? Before the PLC?

>>2685504
Source?

>>2685504
>be ivan the terrible
>invade inflants without even declaring war
>get rekt
>be so humilliated that you have to send secre emissary to pope with offer that you will convert to catholicism if he does something about that polish army marching into his capital
ayy lmao
if based Bathory lived for 5-10 more years Muscovy would be history and Russia would never a thing, slavs would unite to destroy turks and liberate hungarians+balkans and entire slavdom would live in peace

>>2686913
Wooooo

>>2687359
Wooooo

A bad geopolitical location, primarily. Sweden to the north, Russia to the east, Ottomans to the south, and Germans to the west; enemies on all sides. Even when they did crush their enemies, they never capitalized on their victories. Yes, they had problems with their landed nobility/sejm/elected monarchy, but every other major power had equally big internal problems and they were never fatal.

They were the only europeans to truly beat russia in a war, so they get an A+ in my book.

>>2689450
LOOOOOL

>>2690177
PENIS HAHAHA

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When I first discovered that the PLC was a thing that existed after I started playing Paradox games I posted a thread on /int/ asking >Reunification when?

What followed was a huge internet fight between Poles and Lithuanians that lasted for more than 300 posts.

>>2691270
why would country with 40 million population unite with country that has 3 million population

>>2691339
Oink

>>2689450
>but every other major power had equally big internal problems
Wrong

An economy entirely dependent on grain prices remaining high.

>>2692603
Oinky

>>2691557
>>2694237
im glad that ukrainians are also doing their best to contribute to this fine discussion

I blame Lithuanians for everything that's wrong with this world I bet it was a fucking shituanian who came up with putting pineapples on pizza.

OFFICIAL /balt/ POWER RANKINGS

Australia>Latvia>New Zealand=Lithuania>>>>>>>>>eesti

>>2676783
Just dumb leaders

also
why everyone hate us?(lithuanians)

>>2694506
Nobody likes africans

>>2694514
But Belarusians are really Lithuanians.

>>2694514
>epic insult

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>>2694519
>real litva meme

i don't get it why do they speak russian if they are lithuanian?

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is a textbook example why democracy is a bad thing

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>>2676783
Riding horses is just a bit too cool
Giving guns to peasants is dangerous
Not my problem if I live in Poland and Lithuania gets invaded

>>2689450
>hey were the only europeans to truly beat russia in a war
What exactly are you referring to?
>but every other major power had equally big internal problems
lmao

>>2694528
>i don't get it why do they speak russian if they are lithuanian?

Yes because Lithuanian people used to speak RUS, LATIN and POLISH - NOT LITHUANIAN

>>2695969
>Giving guns to peasants is dangerous
What
>Not my problem if I live in Poland and Lithuania gets invaded
I don't think you should share your knowledge with us, if you know shit.

>>2676783
>Polish
>Lithuanian
>Commonwealth

Three big ones right there

>tfw Russia destroyed them by manipulating their politics and influencing their elites

good thing that doesn't happen nowadays

>>2700362
Yes

>>2700362
>muh russian hackers

>>2706783
Thisssszfgy xd

>>2706783
>dindunuffin

>>2676783
Fuck that abomination, they always blob uncontrollably in my EU 4 games.

>>2696016
There are different definitions of "Lithuanian". Even then, Vytautas, Gediminas, Kęstutis, Algirdas, of course Mindaugas were all ethnic Lithuanians and spoke Lithuanian.
After that it was all downhill until the rebirth in 19th century. However, the peasants never stopped speaking Lithuanian. It's just that the rulers were foreign and Lithuanian was strictly a language for the peasants.
Oh and nobody spoke Russian.

>>2694506
Because you should go back to Africa.

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>>2679997
Yeah, sorry 'bout that! To be fair, the polish accidentally built their capital on swedish clay!

>>2676783
Usually, bad managements of what they did with defeated enemies, which usually allowed said enemies to regain power.

That being said, some of said problems have origins as early as during early reign of Jagiellons, especially Vytautas not aiding his allies with dealing with raising Duchy of Moscow.

Also, allowing Teutonic Order to become protestant Duchy of Prussia that is Polish vassal was a mistake.

>>2684306
>conquer rus
start speaking ruthenian
>ally with poland
your dukes and everyone that matters start speaking polish, until some LARPers invent the lanugage from scrap

>>2710406
Hoink

>>2711361
Xd

>>2712975
This

>>2714245
Ya lol xd

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>>2676783
This went wrong

>>2682882
Hopefully the EU will collapse too

>>2709037
>Oh and nobody spoke Russian.
but according to wikipedia it was the state language before polish took over

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania#Languages_for_state_and_academic_purposes

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>if the swedes didn't pussyfoot with bullshit enclave colonies after the 30 years war

>this could have been the glorious border

>>2694506
Because you are chihuahuas of Europe.

>>2717419
Fuck you faggot

>>2717958
Stop being rude

>>2717438
Uhh that's not Russian, buddy.

>>2718724
XD