Why have islamic countries historically had trouble with

>>2673210
Because Islam is considered a blueprint for conduct in all aspects of life, including the political.

>>2673224
this, the church is the state.

>>2673233
so was the structure of Christianity radically different from Islam, that it was allowed to achieve that seperation i.e more fluid than Islam?

>>2673210
It would be hypocritical for a people to separate their State from their Religion. If your Religion commands Zakat (taxes), forbids Riba (usury), etc. Then it is a MUST for the people to impose such elements in their STATEHOOD.

Not doing so corrupts the people's religiosity and faith. And anyways, there is NO CURRENT STATE (whether Turkey or Saudi) that adheres to Islamic Law in a proper sense.

>>2673210
The concept of "religion" as separate from other facets of life is an inherently Western idea.

Arabic "dinn" used to be translated as "law", not "religion".

>>2673210

Turkey is still governed by a secular system. In terms of religiosity in the country, all the Islamists have really done in 15 years is lift the headscarf ban in public institutions and increase spending on mosque construction. The country itself is still governed by secular law and there isn't any talk whatsoever of that being abandoned.

>>2673263
So Christianity's structure makes it easier to achieve that separation than Islam?

>>2673248
Consider the fact that the gospels write about a time when Jerusalem was occupied by the Roman empire. The new testament was not written on how to rule a nation but how individuals should conduct their lives.

>>2673270
"Many in attendance saw the referendum's result as an important message for the world, not just the nation. Wasin Yalcin, 24, said the vote represented "a new hope for us to get rid of foreign forces," while Yusuf Basaran, 20, said he believed "Europe's spine has cracked. This referendum will be the most effective thing in the rebirth of the Ottoman Empire."
Added Aysel Can, a member of the AKP's women's branch, "For a strong Islamic state, for a strong Middle East, Turkey had to switch to this executive presidency system. This is a message to the world to shut up; Turkey is getting stronger. America has to know this, too. We are the voice, we are the ears, we are everything for the Middle East."


Turkey is still "secular" officially, but it's been creaping towards an islamic theocracy for years now

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/16/europe/turkey-referendum-results-erdogan/

>>2673248
The concept of political authority coming from somewhere other than God was still radical in late 17th century Europe.

>>2673274
That's because there is no current "REAL" Christianity - it's true doctrines got corrupted in the very first centuries of it's birth. When the true doctrines get corrupted and "reformed" so many times, it becomes far too feeble against the changing of times. Yesterday they were theocratic now they're separated from state, yesterday they were against homosexuality, today the pope says it's cool, etc.

When the basis of a religion is that weak - then the structure is malleable to whatever the people want.

lets be real

the reason Europe became secular was capitalism.....increased wealth, there was simply no need for a god

>>2673248
>>2673275
Compare this to the early history of Islam, where the Arab conquests created new states which were intended to follow Islamic guidelines.

>>2673305
so in essense Islam's stronger structure makes it harder to change than Christianity?

File: ataturk.jpg (59KB, 538x709px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 538x709px

Turkey failed this man

>>2673281

It's complete hyperbole to suggest that Turkey is creeping towards theocracy.

Erdogan is good at using religion to whip up support amongst his conservative base. And there are definitely those amongst his supporters who want to see an Islamic state. However, he knows that it would be insanity to attempt to abandon secularism - it would cause him far too much trouble with voters who aren't hard Islamists. His share of the vote would drop to below 40% and he'd be in even more trouble than he was after the June 2015 elections.

Erdogan isn't an ideologue. He's a very smart, very pragmatic political player. He's too savvy to champion a hard Islamist line in a country like Turkey. He has all the power he needs in a secular model. His endgame is absolute power, not Islamic theocracy.

>>2673274

For the first three hundred years of its existence Christianity was at best ignored, at worst actively proscribed. They developed a shadow state out of necessity, not out of ideological commitment to the separation of powers. When Constantine adopted Christianity there already was a robust ecclesiastical structure, independent of the state. He saw no point in unbuilding it, it was enough to put himself on top of both hierarchies.

Then the political hierarchy collapsed with the G*rman invasions, while the Church remained. Ergo the Christian tradition of keeping Church and State separate.

>>2673281
>"Europe's spine has cracked. This referendum will be the most effective thing in the rebirth of the Ottoman Empire."
Where is the current head of the family now? I know the last one died in January and he was living in NYC. What's the family's opinion on this shit?

>>2673292
All Abrahamic religions suck, but some are better than others.

Buddhism seems like the best religion desu.

>>2673210
Christianity spread without a state (missionaries)
Islam spread by conquest by states (caliphates)

you stick to what works and what you know.

>>2673210
There's literally no history of states in the Arab world that don't draw on religion as a justification. They also never had a big secularizing revolution like the French Revolution

>>2673730
they also never had an enlightenment

>>2673730
Wasn't Gaddafi something of a secular revolutionary leader?

>>2673210
That picture is not Muhammad (pbuh). The picture is of Ali, his successor.

>>2673791
Not to the extent of the European political development during the 19th century. Europe is the anomaly, not the other way around

>>2673210
Because Islam started as a theocratic empire? If you have looked into the matter you should know this. The leader had a religious title, caliphate, for the first couple of the centuries. It would be like if the Pope had been the ruler of the Roman empire.

>>2673324
Thank God

>>2674616
how is it good

>>2673224
Not really.

A huge rift was caused in the muslim world right after Muhammads death because he never specified who or how the ummah should be governed after him.