Russian Civil War thread

File: 1491978081953.jpg (103KB, 1280x960px) Image search: [Google]

103KB, 1280x960px

I am monitoring this thread.

Baron Wrangel did nothing wrong!

What do most Russians think of the Civil War/Soviet Union today?

File: Denikin_A._I.jpg (103KB, 535x710px) Image search: [Google]

103KB, 535x710px

>>2653045
Read denikin's books, surprisingly self reflective and analytical for someone as involved in the war as he was.

>>2655479
And also him, especially the first part of the memories, to complete the picture from the other side. Both are highly intellectual and give a good picture from both perspectives.

File: 1-leon-trotsky-1879-1940-granger.jpg (95KB, 842x900px) Image search: [Google]

95KB, 842x900px

>>2655486
forgot the pic

Would the whites have won if they had promised to give freedom to the former subject nations in exchange for help against the reds?

>>2655510
No

>>2655510
That's would be like fucking to achieve virginity for them. They would loose support from their own base if they did that.
The closest they were able to get with that was to distribute all kinds of wage statements about discussed this after the war. The communists on the other hand didn't had a problem with giving away everything since they believed that once they establish communism in one country the revolution will spread all over the world anyway.
So why not give independence to Georgia and Finland or territory to Germany if you belie in historical determinism and are sure that they will turn communist and unite with you in few years anyway.

File: gajda rare.jpg (76KB, 545x704px) Image search: [Google]

76KB, 545x704px

>>2655462
This is realy interesting, because as i understand it, most Russians see Whites as good guys until the main White forces got defeated (Kolchak) After that, Reds are seen as protectors of Russia against foreign imperialism. (This was also motivation for a lot of people to join Red army in late war). People that tried to film documentary about Czechoslovak legionaries had a lot of problems with local population because our soldiers were considered foreign imperialists by local population.

>>2655510
No realy, brutality of Whites was thing that lost them a war. In General Gajda´s memories you can read about hate toward Reds in 1917 and 1918 and "love" toward Whites and legionaries, but this changed later Red officers started with terror to punish soldiers for not obeying orders and harassing the population, White general Kornilov said something like "We have to burn half of Russia and spill the blood of 3/4 of population to defeat the Reds". Tji isnt realy a thing that could give you support from people.

What are some good books about the Czechoslovak Legion? Frankly I find their story to be amazing and one of the most fascinating aspects of the entire WW1-WW2 era.

File: czechoslovak-legion-train.jpg (50KB, 400x350px) Image search: [Google]

50KB, 400x350px

>>2655683
I got this cool picture for this post and then forgot to use it...

>>2655479
>>2655486
You guys should check out Pyotr Wrangel's memoirs that he wrote in Paris before he was assassinated.

>>2655683
Its extremely complicated to find some books in English, i dont even think that there are any. But if you are at least Polish or probably some other Slav, you can try to read Gajda´s memoirs: https://uloz.to/!AcVjHtrM/gajda-radola-moje-pameti-pdf
Or some of these books: http://literatura2.topsid.com/index.php?war=odraz_1_sv_valky_v_ceske_a_svetove_literature&unit=legionarska_literatura
If you are looking for a novel not necessarily from former legionare, i recommend you Dalibor Vácha, he wrote 4 books about legionaries, 1 about WW2 Czechoslovak corps in Soviet Union and one post-apo iam reading right now

File: Czechoslovak Cavalry 1918.png (293KB, 800x593px) Image search: [Google]

293KB, 800x593px

>>2657533
thanks dubsman

File: Screen Shot 2017-04-13 at 8.45.51 PM.png (242KB, 427x757px) Image search: [Google]

242KB, 427x757px

>>2655683
go to google books and type in czech legion. i can't attest to the quality of any of these titles but you can find that out with some investigation

>>2655510
Doubtful. The Whites were revanchist and Russian ultranationalists.

Perhaps if they'd allied with the likes of Kerensky, but could you really see that happening? They hated the Russian Republic as much as they hated the Soviets

File: 1482189154610.jpg (41KB, 566x448px) Image search: [Google]

41KB, 566x448px

Post RCW art/posters

Probably the most iconic one on the Bolshevik side, "Beat the Whites with the Red Wedge"

File: 1483053750246.png (1010KB, 619x712px) Image search: [Google]

1010KB, 619x712px

>>2658742
Trotsky as St George slaying the dragon/serpent of "Counter Revolution"

>>2655510
The whites would have won if:

1.) They weren't whores of foreign powers

2.) They didn't terrorize and purge areas they occupied (see the white terror)

3.) They didn't have monarchists (by 1917 everyone hated the monarchy besides a handful of delusional nobility and clergy)

4.) They were anti-WW1 (the provisional govs continution of the war is what did them in)

5.) they promised land reform

6.) self-determination for nationalities, including emancipation for jews and independence for poland

7.) they have a unified leadership under a central figure

But they were able to do NONE of these things, which is why incredibly the bolsheviks were able to win. That and the Whites were such a shitshow. While they may seem like the "good guys" in the hindsight of the horrors of bolshevism, at the time the bolsheviks enjoyed a far greater level of popularity with than the whites (though they were NOT more popular than the socialist revolutionarities, who were split between both sides, thus dooming them). The bolshevik promise for land reform, an end to WW1, and self-determination were far more appealing than the whites, who were often lumped in with the old regime and its failures

The turning point really came at Brest-Litovsk, which secured the entire west for the bolsheviks while at the same time earning tacit german cooperation. The bolsheviks also enjoyed cooperation with Ataturk, and Ottoman aid was vital in reconquering the Caucuses (and in particular Armenia)

The other turning point was in the summer of 1919 when the whites launched a series of clumsy counter-attacks on different fronts with NO coordination, allowing the bolsheviks to encircle and destroy each formation one by one instead of being assaulted on all fronts simultaneously.

>>2658781
>though they were NOT more popular than the socialist revolutionarities
With the peasantry, no, but the urban industrial workers vastly favoured the Bolsheviks.

File: tumblr_mfvl13Cghr1rcoy9ro1_1280.jpg (197KB, 887x674px) Image search: [Google]

197KB, 887x674px

>>2653045
>what if we took a mach-hahahahaha...ok, let me try again. so we have all these horses standing around right? and mobility is a huge factor on the Ukrainian steppe..ok so what if we took a horse-drawn carriage and put a fucking MACHINE GUN on the back??? hahaha the peasants are gonna love this

>>2655683
expand on them fellow slav, what did they do?

>>2658898
what's funny about this? horse-drawn maxims were pretty effective in the war. In lieu of roads and automobiles it was the most effective option.

the Russian Civil War was the last great cavalry war. The horse was the most vital weapon after the railroad

>>2658812
this is correct, but Russia was like 70% peasant, 20% urban worker, 10% nobility/clergy

ROMAN UNGERN VON STERNBERG

File: 800px-Ungern_sternberg_colorised.jpg (210KB, 800x1237px) Image search: [Google]

210KB, 800x1237px

>>2658990
Took long enough for someone to post this

>you will never be a Baltic German aristocrat, leading a merciless force of multi-ethnic cavalry, hellbent on restoring the Mongol Empire in 1920s Siberia

The whites should have won.

Gloria eterna to the royal russians.

>>2658812
there was also a significant minority (even majority of some places) who were pro-menshevik. the fact of the matter is that in the city and the countryside, a large, sustained, unified and coordinated opposition against the bolsheviks ever materialized; partly cause of red terror, partly because of petty squabbling over matters of doctrine or strategy.