Why don't Turks embrace Byzantine history more?

>>2636754
Being turkish is about culture though everyone within anatolia is a turk from my point of view you can compare it a bit with being american for example.
Also we might be descended from a shitload of different peoples but we are all turk and so turkic and that is what matters.
Aside from that you might be right but there is a huge ottomans vs byzantines idea where all the turks cliam to be ottomans and all the greeks claim to be byzantines when we all sort of might be both.

>>2636754
You're forgetting that Turkey is the most disgustingly over the top nationalist country in the world.

t. someone who travelled it for several months.

>>2636754
>multicultural
Welp, theres your problem right there.

>>2636793
Oh fuck off. Many cultures came and went through Anatolia, hence multicultural.

>>2636796
No, I'm saying that there is no way in hell that Turks would recognize any other culture that is or was in Turkey.

>>2636793
>I know literally nothing about Anatolia
ftfy you mongoloid

>>2636802
Well, you're unfortunately right about that with many people there.
It's pretty fucking scary how a state can condition millions of people to adopt some made up mythical identity, one which they're so vehemently supportive of, but that's a whole other topic.

What more proof do you need that multiculturalism is bs? The tiny elite that conquers will browbeat everyone else into their culture via taxation and force.

>>2636754
Because they are not Byzantines and they showed absolutely no regard to preserving the culture of anyone they conquered. If you have an empire for 500 and there are still people living in it who don't think themselves Ottomans you are doing a piss poor job of assimilating and embracing history.

>>2636819
You do realize the conclusion of the OP is a defense of multiculturalism, right?

>>2636814
>I know literally nothing about modern Turkish politics

ftfy buddy

>>2636819
That's how every nation state went about cultural unification though. Parisian culture and language didn't become French culture and language passively.

>>2636841
Fite me cuck

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Turko-Mongols and Arabs destroyed such superior cultures and then as they sat on their corpses plucked each rich heritage from the conquered's pockets and claimed it theirs, or, they were somehow its inheritors

both turko-mongol and arab original populations have done nothing whatsoever, everything produced in the states that succeeded their conquests were the works of their subject peoples (some assimilated into their cancerous ''''culture''')

>>2636870
Oh yeah?
Well good luck telling us apart fuck boy.

>>2636870
you sound like a butthurt iranian

>>2636820
By not assimilating everyone they preserved the conquered peoples culture didn't they?

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They should do it just to piss off the Serbs and Greeks even more.

Really drum up the 'sultanate of rum' angle, tell the word that the Turks are more Greek than the "Greeks".

>>2636754
>>2636802
Nationalism was a mistake.

>>2636754
Turks are another genetically fine people who are held back by Islam. Man, imagine an alt-his where Turks were Christian instead; they would be a bro-tier European power by now. Or conversely, imagine if Greeks had converted to Islam; we'd have yet another Islamist or Islamist-leaning player to deal with.

>>2636754
There are no longer any "ethnic" Turks in Turkey today. Or even in Anatolia the last half a millennia to be quite honest.

>>2636916
Even nationalism cant fix bad taste.

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>>2636754
I'm sure the simple fact that the Ottomans were nearer to the present has alot to do with it, but you're right.

>>2636775
>Being turkish is about culture
this

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>>2636870
lol okay reza

>>2637032
Why are you getting upset at what he said, roach?

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>>2636754
because ...
Turkic:
>cucking the world and causing unrivaled butthurt
>Glory of Seljuk and Ottoman empire
>Associated with purity of Islamic heroism


Byzantine:
>getting cucked
>literal rump state larping as Romans
>Associated with Orthodogs and Gayreeks

understand now, my diasporafag friend?

>>2636884
>>2636890
>>2637032
t. clueless anatolians, slavs and arabs whose ancestors ''''''assimilated'''''

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>>2637086
>Russia's butt-boy
>"cucking the world"

>>2637086
I understand that you're destroying our history and our country, yeah

>>2637086
>nobody likes turks
>everybody likes byzantines
Please continue being hated

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>>2636890

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>>2637086
u said right...

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>>2636754
based turk american

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>>2637119
>Byzaboo faggots and redditors hate us
were doing good anon
>>2637089
funny, i haven't seen any Russki jets in our airspace lately :^)
>>2637094
And how would you suggest "fixing" our country? Becoming cucks?
stay in America

>>2636754
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1EFe1vSb3s

I think people brush off and underestimate the conversion and assimilation rate.

>>2637161
So you'd rather embrace a complete lie about who you are?
You sure you know what cuck means?

>stay in America
No shit

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>>2637161
>only reddit hates turks
Newfag? Have you never seen all the deus vult and turkroach memes? Have you never seen all the islam hate? Get off this site, you will probably find more love on reddit

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>>2636754
>Byzantine history
>Kurdish

I swear Turks are the fucking FYROMians of Asia...

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>>2637176
>>2637161
>he's cucked himself into turkishness and he doesn't even know it

>>2637161
Bullshit. Erdogan literally sucks Putin's cock to stay on his good side and your kind keeps begging the rest of NATO and especially the US for security against Russians.

Stop lying Mehmet.

>why doesn't this group of Muslims identify with a Christian empire?

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>>2637176
>>2637196

>diaspora trying to teach history

Listen m 8. Im going to assume you genuinely are confused about Turkish identity ...

Anatolians have long adopted the culture of the strongest empire that dominated them.
Starting with Greeks and romans and then later Turks. the Byzantines are just as much invaders as the Turkic waves, they just came earlier. Its not about bloodline, its about identifying with the best. and Turkic legacy is objectively better than the Byzantines. Understand now?

>>2636754
Somewhat agree OP,but I hate how Byzantium is lauded for being a punching bag that insulated Europe from Muslim aggression. All that is saying is that the Byzantines sucked at fighting but that they took a long time to be conquered and some unrelated chucklefucks a thousand miles away benefited from it.
The Byzantines had their own plot of land that they had to protect and they fucking sucked at it. They let sand rats from the desert take their territory and build an empire out of it. When said Muslim empire collapsed, the Byzantines had 200 years to take advantage of the situation. Literally all they did in that time was conquer half of Armenia and half of the emirate of Aleppo
Then they lose 2/3rds of their empire to Turks in the span of 10 years. They only retake about half of that over the course of a century with the help fuckhuge armies of crusaders that periodically marched through enemy territory raping and killing Muslims so a Byzantine army could trail them and take over vacant cities.
It's a shit empire with a shit history and I laugh at anybody who tries framing things as "they were protected western Europe with their suffering!" or "give them a break, they were really tired after losing that one war, you can't blame them for losing the next one!"

>>2637237
Why would having a Turkish identity be better than Greek/Byzantine one?

>400 year old meme empire vs a continuation of an empire that more or less is the basis of western civilization

Are Anatolians retarded?

>>2637272
t. Edward "Fedora spinning" Gibbons

>>2637285
>discussing history with a turk
They are all braindead

>>2637277
>Are Anatolians retarded?
Absolutely, they just copy whatever their successful neighbour is doing and then forget their other lessons from the past. Sadly they have been uber retarded for the past 50 years and now they unironically think making erdogay the great sultan is gonna fix their shit. Literally faggots.

>>2637185
OP is probably American. They're by far the worst /his/ posters

>>2637306
Maybe after turks

>>2637284
He's right tho. If you look at the muslim attempts at expansion in europe after winning spain, the battles are just not on the same scale. 25k men or so at Poitiers vs numerous 100k+ battles against Byzantium. For better or worse Byzantium was top bait, and that protected Europe while they were recovering from the loss of WRE.

>>2637285
You are literally beyond help.
Go ahead and convert to christianity and larp all l day as a failed Roman-Greek rump state. Just don't be surprised that Turks don't feel any particular attachment to people who are culturally non-related to them because they might just have 2% ancestry from.

>>2637285

here you go >>2637320

>>2636870
Persians are my favorite slaves.

>>2636754
Take your historical revisionism elsewhere.

>>2637180
of course i've seen them. why should I be mad that a bunch of pant-shitting larpers in burgerland are buttblasted over "muh"constantinople"?

>>2637317
>He's right though.
Nope. You've also killed any credibility you might have by implying a histographer like Gibbons knows what the fuck he's talking about at all.

>>2636754
OP because our ancestors mixed with shitload of people doesn't mean that we are less turk for it.
You could find the most aryan qt to have a kid with and even if that kid is blonde with blue eyes he could be a turk as long as you teach him turkish and the turkish identity.
Its not really hard to understand desu.

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Greeks deserved to be conquered for what they did to the Cappadocians, Lydians, Lycians, etc.

The Turkic """Conquest"" should be seen as a reconquest of the East vs West in Anatolia.

>>2637358
Why are you still here? Nobody likes you here.
Get out get out GET OUT

>>2636900
Not really, those cultures will be very different due to reactionary forces
>>2636932
>the Cossacks but not the Cossacks
Wonder how that would affect the caliphate, would it have splintered, and would territory be given back to the Romans, or would you have the First Jihad instead of the first Crusade >>2637161
>redditors hate us
Nope, just kinda everyone you pissed off, which is everyone

>>2637437
>n-nobody likes u just go okay.. i-m not crying

this isn't the elementary school playground . take your autistic screaching somewhere else

>>2637385
>Turkish identity
>quintessentially British intensifies
>>2637425
>proto-mongols conquering Anatolia is the same as PIEs/sea peoples being conquered
Really makes you think

>>2637473
Even /pol hates you vermin

>>2636932
But there are christian Turks. just look at Bulgarians. If you mean Anatolians. Armenians come pretty close. neither of them are a "bro-tier" power or any tier power for that matter

>>2637480
Culture is way more important than genetics. The Seljuks were culturally Persian

>>2637496
They had statelets not satraps
The majority accepting you is the most important factor

>>2636754
they were genocidal slaves who were to be murdered into submission by the armies of God thats why

>>2637526
what do you mean?
There were several successive Turkic empires in Iran, Seljuks, Ghaznavids, khwarezmians, Safavids, etc. They generally took Persian titles and patronized their culture. Nationalism wasn't a thing back then

>>2637277
Turks defeated Greek/Byzantine and make them their slave, thats how

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>That the predominant genetic makeup of modern-day Turkish people is indigenous Anatolian rather than genetically Turkic is unsurprising, as the Turkish people are a collection of assimilated peoples who were formed from a dual process involving their adoption of Islam and the Turkish language. Even the Turkish state considers all those who have citizenship there to be "ethnic" Turkish.

>Although the early Turkic invaders carried out an invasion with cultural significance, including the introduction of the Old Anatolian Turkish language (the predecessor to modern Turkish) and the religion of Islam, the genetic contribution from Central Asia may have been very small.k[›][132][136]

>According to American Journal of Physical Anthropology (2008), today's Turkish people are more closely related with Balkan populations than to the Central Asian populations,[137][138] and a study looking into allele frequencies suggested that there was a lack of genetic relationship between the Mongols and the Turks, despite the historical relationship of their languages (The Turks and Germans were equally distant to all three Mongolian populations).[139] Multiple studies suggested an elite cultural dominance-driven linguistic replacement model to explain the adoption of Turkish language by Anatolian indigenous inhabitants.[131]k[›][135]

>A study involving mitochondrial analysis of a Byzantine-era population, whose samples were gathered from excavations in the archaeological site of Sagalassos, found that the samples had close genetic affinity with modern Turkish and Balkan populations.[140] During their research on leukemia, a group of Armenian scientists observed high genetic matching between Turks, Kurds, and Armenians.[141] Another studies found the Peoples of the Caucasus (Georgians, Circassians, Armenians) are closest to the Turkish population.

It's sad to see Turks sperg out in all of these threads because Erdogan told them too.

MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH HORSERIDING TURKGOL HURRRRRITAAAGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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>>2636754
>turks recognize Byzantine heritage
FUCKING MUDSLIMES STEALING CHRISTIAN LEGACY !!11GO BACK TO MONGOLIA
>Turks embrace Turkic heritage
LEL THOSE GREEK/ARMENIAN/SLAV RAPEBABY KEKS THINK THEY ARE TURKS

thats why OP

>>2636754
They don't want to be seen as autistic as the English who make King Arthur one of their Mythical Heroes.

>>2637677
>implying King Arthur didn't exist
>>2637549
>Safavids were Turks and not Persians with crafty alliances

>>2637677
He things King Arthur was mythical, get a load of this guy.

>>2637549
Safavids weren't Turks you monkey.

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>>2638218
Ruling class members were all from Turkmenian descent

>>2637762
>>2637792
I don't think the Mythical part is where he is taking issue, but King Arthur's people were at least culturally if not ethnically exterminated by the Anglo Saxons so it is a bit silly that he is the legendary savior king over those same Anglo Saxons today.

>>2638659
Wrong.

>>2638659
>actual attested geneology of the Safavids are Persians, Pontic Greeks, Iranian Azeris, Kurds, Armenians, Circassians, and other Caucasus peoples
>oldest ancestor is a Kurdish-Persian/Azeri Sufist master
>"Turkish"
Sure thing bro.

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>>2636754
How do Turks generally feel about the Byzantines anyway?
They have all these artifacts and remnants of this empire all around them.

I'm kind of surprised, since OPs brought it up, that they don't seem to ever be like "Hey weren't, like, most of us used to be that?"

>>2636870
Whatever butthurt mehmets say this man is right. What did Turks/Mongols/Arab create that wasn't already there? Islam as a religion is more Persian though the cult was Arab

>>2637583
Yes yes, another civilization to fall to Turk savages.

>>2639091
We can't help but be aware of it. the whole association of "Byzantine= Greek and not us" and "Muslims Turks = Us" comes from identity politics stemming from the trauma of the breakup of the Ottoman empire and subsequent massacres and population exchanges with Greece.
but yes, we are aware of it.
t. an actual Mehmet

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>this thread

>>2636754
why is /his/ so obsessed with Turkey and Turks anyway

>>2639721
Probably has to do with how much history is in Anatolia.

That and racism.

>>2636932
Coptic Ottomans are a great choice for doing a world conquest in EU4, sadly doing so removes their unique government form.

>>2636754
why don't Spaniards embrace their Islamic period haha I don't get it

>>2636754
DESU senpai, I'm a Turk, born and raised in Adana.

I don't identify as Byzantine and I'm not a Christian. I am a Turk.

But I do have some vague sense of what you're getting at. I have looked at our history before and I've realized this point you're raising some time ago.

Chances are, it's true, I probably have at most just a small connection to the original Turks that came through here.

I'm under no delusion as to think that I'm somehow more closely related to Atilla the Hun than some Anatolian peasant with a who-the-fuck-knows ancestory.

But as it's said before, Turkishness is a cultural identity more than anything else.

Maybe it's stupid and I can see that. I'm not a hardcore nationalist. But the Turkish identity and the Turkish-centered Ottoman Empire were the last people to control this area, and that's what we've come to embrace.

I think that given this historic reality it would be awesome if we were more open to the Byzantine, sure. It is weird how we just cast them aside as "the people before us" and not something like "the people we used to be"

But there isn't much any one of us can do about that. You're talking about a nationalist country that struggles with the idea that the Kurds and the Armenians are real.

So what you're suggesting is too extreme my friend, way too extreme for the Turkish psyche to embrace. I think it's cool in an academic discussion and on the low key, but outside of that, it's a history that not many would be comfortable with embracing.

>>2639091
They seem to generally ignore it somewhat. The Theodosian Walls are seen as a massive public planning inconvenience, the burnt column of Constantine is just kind of left to its own devices next to a metro tram stop. Generally it's associated with a dark past before the rise of the modern Turkish nation.

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>>2636915
>Really drum up the 'sultanate of rum' angle, tell the word that the Turks are more Greek than the "Greeks".

It was called that because it was in the land of Rum. The later Ottomans called the Greeks Rum too, they had no problem recognizing them as Romans. Even the later Rum millet was about the Orthodox populations in general, who ultimately had religious roots in Byzantium.

The Ottomans themselves frequently looked away from Byzantine Anatolian culture and towards the Islamic-Arabic/Persian world for example, this isn't a new thing.

It's good to study history beyond a nationalist lens and embracing all aspects of the history of your place and it doesn't mean you have to identify with them either (non-Muslims in the Balkans don't identify as being "Ottoman" either but they most assurely have a lot of Ottoman heritage) but this requires more maturity and less nationalism in general, and not just from Turks. And probably the last place to find it would be on 4chan, to be fair. There's plenty of good, non-nationalist history being written all the time though including from Turkish scholars.

Also, there's no need to underplay the Turkic heritage of Turks either. It's absolutely there. They aren't just Byzantines who started speaking Turkish. And it's also worth keeping in mind that the republican Turkish view of the Ottoman empire has been similarly nuanced too, I recommend the "Ottoman Past and Today's Turkey" for that.

>>2639701
See pic.

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>>2638798
Do you realise his mother, Halima Begüm, was the daughter of Uzun Hasan who is the ruler of Aq Qoyunlu.
But you are right on that he had Kurdish and Pontic Greek blood mixed as his mother was the daughter of Uzun Hasan's Pontic Greek wife and his father was Haydar who is a direct descendent of Safi-ad-din Ardabili(Founder of Safaviyya Sufi Order)
He was chosen by Turkomen Tribes of Anatolia and Azerbaijan of Qızılbash movement and came to power by their help.
Almost every war he fought, his soldiers were completely Turkmenians and Azeri Turks from Bektashi Order.
Ironically, he also lost his last war to Janissaries under Bektashi Order also.
You can also check his poems as he was called by his poet name Hatay-i (Sinner) because of his poetry skills. Moat of the artwork he has done was written in Azeri Turkish and can even be read by a modern day Turkish, Azeri or Turkmenian person.
So basically, even if he had some kind of mixed blood(Like every other ruler after 500 AC) because of his culture we can clearly say he was Turkmenian descent.

> Please, don't try to bend the history and its scientific methods just because you think your culture benefits from it somehow. That's stupid.

>>2641079
Sorry I don't trust Turk bullshit revisionist history.

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>>2636754
are these anti-turk threads because i asked a question about the turkification of anatolia?

but yeah, i was wondering the same thing, certainly the purely turkic history of Anatolia is less illustrious than the Hellenic one. It's interesting to me to speculate what Greece and Anatolia would look like now if they had all remained Greek, as >>2636932 says