Persia Thread

supporting bump
I'm so tired of HRE or Byzantium threads

I need a redpill on the origin of Zoroastrianism

>>2636033
>best Persian ruler
That's literally 1000 years worth of rulers, but almost universally it's considered to be Cyrus. He's to Persians what Alexander is to Greeks, although Persia would be at its greatest extent under Darius or Xerxes (I forget which).

>most important
In terms of legacy? Definitely the Achaemenids. The entire Greek model of empire (satrapies, etc.) was based on the Achaemenids. Also, first empire in the modern sense that would endure all the way to the British.

>Greeks and Romans
They shared a border. They were both great civilisations with imperial ambitions. And that border just happened to meet on the most fertile and rich parts of the planet.

>>2636051
I'm unironically a Roma/Byzaboo despite being Iranian, so I don't mind.

There's just so little about the Persians before the Islamic period compared to the Greeks and Romans that I find it hard to get into it.

The Shahnameh is pretty sweet to read but it's hardly contemporary.

>>2636033
The Seleucids were the best and you didnt even mention them...

>>2636051
>the origin of Zoroastrianism
That's another good point I should have put in the OP.

>>2636067
Did the Parthian or Sassanid empires have any rulers that could be considered on par with the likes of Cyrus or Xerxes?

>>2636091
>The Seleucids
Weren't they Greek?

>>2636100
Mithridates for Parthia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithridates_I_of_Parthia

Probably the two Shapurs for the Sassanids.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapur_I
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapur_II

>>2636101
Yes.

Seleucia isn't normally considered to be Persian, per se, because of the linguistic and cultural divide.

Of course, Persia had a great deal of Hellenic influence by the time of the Parthians as a result.

>>2636091
The Seleucid Empire was entirely Hellenistic and neither of its capitals were based in traditionally Persian territory.

>>2636085
What are you talking about? We know plenty about the Arsacid and Sassanid dynasties/empires, the Achaemenids and Median dynasties we don't know as much as on.

>>2636091
Seleucids were literally garbage tier.

>>2636067
Cyrus is consider the father of Persians and Iranians to a small extent but Ardashir and Darius as well as Khosrau I and Shapur (both the first and the second) are also as famous and well regarded as him.

>>2636153
>We know plenty about the Arsacid and Sassanid dynasties/empires, the Achaemenids and Median dynasties we don't know as much as on.
Compared to Greek and Rome? No.

>>2636153
Greeks>>>>Persians

>>2636051
Zoroastrianism is a shit tier bastardisation of Vedic religion.

There you go.

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REEEEEE FUCKING PERSIANS ARE THE REASON ROME COULD NEVER EXPAND INTO MESOPOTAMIA. FUCK YOU.

>Who was the best Persian ruler?
Khosrau I. He reformed Persia. He crushed the nobility, he restored and strengthened royal power, and created a loyal army of middle class warriors. He made tax reforms that could fund a much better army. With this in place, the Greco-Romans could not compete.

>Which empire out of the Achaemenid, Parthian and Sassanid ones was the most important?
Achaemenid because no empire has ruled over that much of humanity before or after them.

The most developed was the Sassanids though. The state was much more well-functioning under Khosrau, and Zoroastrianism became a standardized religion with clout.

The Parthian empire was not Persian, but it was Iranian. Parthia sucked. It was a feudal mess of competing interests, not much better than the Seleucids. They had effectively no control of their socalled empire. The Romans steamrolled them left and right.

>Why was Persia perpetually warring with the Greeks and Romans?
Achaemenid empire did not perpetually have wars against the Greeks. Sure the Persians had raids in mainland Greece which the Greeks like to call "wars". The Greeks were actually employed in the empire as mercenaries in large numbers. Also as masters in various crafts. The Greeks worked more for the Persians than they fought against them IMHO.

Parthians and Sassanians had perpetual war. Mostly due to there not being any natural border between the two world empires. Armenia, the Caucasus and Mesopotamia were split in two by the two powers. There were no clear dividing line.

>>2636171
Rome never wanted to. Augustus believed that Armenia was a natural border to Rome's eastern expanse. Roman honour demanded conquest, but at heart it was a Mediterranean empire and it knew it. Secretly, Romans were happy they had a civilised people to their eastern border because they don't go full retard every year like barbarian snowniggers to the north.

Only Crassus went full sperg mode and tried to invade like a dumbass.

>>2636162
When did I compare them to the Greeks and Romans? What's with the strawman?

>>2636169
>>2636170
Wrong on both cases.

>>2636100
There were good Persian kings besides Cyrus, but Xerxes wasn't one of them.

>>2636199
Xerxes was literally a strong ruler, outside of his failed Greek invasion he was able to routinely put down revolts and uprisings, and even welcomed a certain exiled Athenian noble into his court despite their enmity during the Great War.

>>2636176
>The Parthian empire was not Persian, but it was Iranian.
This statement is literally meaningless.

Persian had a different meaning in the Achaemenid period, to the Arascid period, to the Sassanid, to the Arab, to the Mongol, to the Turk, to the Safavid, to now.

Only WE WUZ Iranians think there is.

There's definitely no continuity between modern day Persians and Achaemenids/Sassanids besides the landmass occupied.

>>2636231
>There's definitely no continuity between modern day Persians and Achaemenids/Sassanids besides the landmass occupied.
You're a super moron but I'll just give (You) the obligatory (You) here.

>>2636231
Oh, and language, but as someone who studied Avestan and Pahlavi back in university, even that link is tenuous.

>>2636033
Did the Persians ever actually do anything besides rule and conquer? Like, what did they actually contribute to the world besides owning vast amounts of land?

>>2636238
>>2636231
Definitely low tier bait.

>>2636236
Please tell what continuity there is between the Achaemenids and Sassanids besides being born in Fars/Anshan and ruling over the same landmass?

It sure as hell wasn't religion - there's a stark contrast between Zoroastrianism in the two periods.

>>2636231
The empire is Persian if the ruling dynasty are from the province of Pars/Fars/Persis/Persia.

The Parthians were from the province of Parthia and spoke an North-western Iranian language like Medes did in Achaemenid times, or the Kurds do today.

>>2636268
I said I will only give you (You)s, anon.

>>2636275
>The empire is Persian if the ruling dynasty are from the province of Pars/Fars/Persis/Persia.
Not disputed. See >>2636268

But they varied massively in culture, language, and religion. Modern day Italy is not the successor of Rome just as modern day Iran is not the successor to either of those empires.

>>2636268
There is a strong link in the religion and the language. The Sassanid dynasty were probably priests of Anahid to begin with before becoming warlords. The Sassanids also identified with the earlier Persians, and wanted to recreate their past glory.

>>2636279
OK so you can't.

كس كش برو خودت را آموزش بكن

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>>2636268
Except for the fact Iron Age Iranians have not dramatically changed genetically between the Parthian/Sassanid era and modern times. Modern Persian also being an extension from Middle Persian aka Pahlavi, or are you going to be autistic enough to claim English people aren't English because both Middle and New/Modern English isn't the same as Old English?

>>2636310
Even with all the Arab and then Mongol and then Turkic rape babies and intermarriage?

>>2636268
>Fars
That's Pars actually.
*Anshan
That's a town in Pars. So we can recap:

>modern Persian is continuous of middle Persian
>Persians still live in the same area today as they did thousands of years ago
>Same oral traditions dating back from before the Arscaid period persist in Iranian towns and villages among poets and folksingers
>Not genetically divergent signifigantly from their original ancestors
>"They aren't continous despite continuing to keep their own language, culture, customs, and ethnic identity alive despite various invasions, fall of different empires and nations, and other catastrophic events".

Yeah sure thing.

>>2636318
Neither the Arabs nor the Turks had any major impact on Iranian population densities in terms of "mixing". In fact most Turks today in the Middle East have more genetically in common with Anatolians, Indo-Europeans, and Semitic people then they do with any of their kin in Central Asia and Eurasia.

Mongols played a much larger role with massacres then interbreeding.

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>>2636310
>>2636297
>>2636279
>>2636275
>>2636236
>>2636189

>>2636301
(You) get a 1/10 at best.

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>>2636335
>>2636301
>>2636268
>>2636231
"I was merely pretending to be retarded!"

>>2636249
The modern concept of architecture and societal hierarchy both derive from Achaemenid Persia, because of its influence on Hellenistic culture.

>>2636330
>That's Pars actually.
Not this shit again.

I swear only Iranians have this inferiority complex with Arab loanwords.

>>2636340
>loanwords
Prouncing the name of the province because the Arab language does not have a soft counter for P sounding consonants does not make it a "loanword". Or is Fepsi a loanword because Arabs can't say Pepsi either?

Also not Iranian. Also really bad projecting there, anon.

>>2636249
The Silk Road.

>>2636249
The Royal Road.
Darius' Suez Canal.
Xerxes land bridge connecting Asia with Europe.
Sassanids being on par with the Romans/Byzantines technologically (there's a still active dam in Iran from the Sassanid era working to this day).
Also trousers iirc were invented by Iranian/Iranic people.

>>2636347
So I should only call London Londinios/Londinium? And France Gaul?

It's been known as Fars for over a millennium.
>It's Pars actually.
You're the only one who felt like unironically being a contrarian.

>>2636368
Not in Iran it hasn't. Like I said earlier, stop reaching with those dumb projections.

>>2636051
>I need a redpill on the origin of Zoroastrianism

>first monotheistic religion
>extolls truth, good thoughts, good words, good deeds
>doesn't shy from warfare but says it is necessary and honorable to defend ones nation
>strongly environmentalist
>fire is holy (quite logical, it literally gives us life; what is the sun)
>fire temples are max /comfy/
>pray five times a day (islam stole this)
>spring equinox festival similar to dia de los muertos where guardian angels would descend to be with the people they're protecting (other religions stole this)
>recommends kindness, gentleness, and charity
>recommends good actions rather than just praying and expecting shit to happen
>no seriously, fire temples are comfy as fuark
>pretty tolerant to other religions, let the christians coexist
>emphasis on hygiene without being fucktarded about it

How DID Cyrus manage to create such a powerful empire, anyway? Before him, Persis was pretty much some literally who constituency of the Medes.

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Why are Iranian people so damn autistic?

>Friends with an Iranian guy
>Keeps going on about how Persia is the greatest empire of all time
>Goes on about Cyrus the Great and how tolerant he was
>Gets mad when people call him Arab even though he looks like one
>is a Zoroastrian in 2017
>drinks alcohol simply for the fact that muslims dont
>talks about his hatred for Arabs 24/7
>sucks in cheeks in every picture for a "jawline"
>refers to himself as Persian not Iranian
>constantly gets his eyebrows done to not allow his Arab unibrow to grow

These people are insane

Reminder arabs literally said Persia gave them what Greece gave the Romans.

>>2636340
>Arab loanwords.

>be Persian
>name your land as you like
>arabs come, butcher your language because they can't pronounce a "p" sound
>modern amerishit: hurrr it's fars lol because uh my history book in high school said so

kys

Persia
Pars Province
???
Or are you going to argue that it's actually "Fersia" and "Farthians"?

>>2636427

Gee, why would he hate a people who murdered and raped his ancestors? I wonder.

>eyebrow grooming is a bad thing

Abdullah, go back to fucking your camel.

Nader Shah was based

>>2636433
>having a giant empire and losing to sandniggers in a desert
>crying about something that happened 1000 years ago
I hate all shitskins but Iranians are worse. KYS Ali kyomeni

>>2636401
I've never heard an Iranian call it Pars, nor have I ever heard anybody call the language Parsi instead of Farsi

Elam >>> Media >>>> Persia

>>2636427
Don't forget the obscene amount of cologne, obsession with Versace, and white BMWs.

Persian diaspora is by far the worst diaspora I've ever seen

t. Iranian diaspora

>>2636451
All the tour guides in Shiraz must be lying then. I'm sure its a grand conspiracy only you uncovered.

>call the language Parsi
They call it Persian, no one said anything about it being called Parsi.

>>2636465
t. false-flagger.

>>2636483
The historical name is Pars yes. But in the vernacular everybody calls it Fars.

>They call it Persian
Do you not realise that Persian is an English word? The language is called "Farsi" by it's native speakers, even tho officially it's called "Parsi" by the academy.

Only LARPers in the diaspora use the pre-Islamic prononciations of the p-->f sounds.

>>2636516
Everyone refers to it as Pars in Iran. Everyone I've encountered either native or diaspora calls it Persian, only people unfamiliar with the people and country call it Farsi.

Keep trying to poison the well though.

>>2636205
>failed Greek invasion
It wasn't just a failed Greek invasion. He lost Macedonia and Thrace that his father acquired, as was as Greek coastal cities in Asia minor. The Delian league BTFO him in Asia minor. All signs of Achaemenid activity cease Taxilla after Darius, infering that permanently lost the Indus satrapy.
>>2636339
>the modern concept of architecture and social hierarchy both derive from Achaemenid Perisa

1. Describe and explain the architecture part, which it seems that the Achaemenid didn't revolutionize it compare to their predecessors and it's influence on Greek architecture seems pretty weak.

2. The Achaemenid didn't invent social hierarchy. In-fact, we barely know anything about their social hierarchy--the whole trivum of peasants cultivators, class-warriors, and priests while being subordinate to a King, are from what we gather the Sassanid era. The Greeks in their writings about the Achaemenids don't mention a warrior-dedicated or peasant classes (they do describe that there's peasant feudal classes around Asia, but don't mention any in Persia), nor does Persian inscriptions hint at such. They do, however, refer to noblemen. Regardless, the whole 'peasant, warrior, and priest' hierarchy is an inherit feature of most Indo-European societies, and the Mesopotamian and Egyptian cultures have such institutions that pre-date the Achaemenids and the Indo-Europeans by a long-shot.

>>2636033
I dunno why Persia isn't usually mentioned up there with the fiercest enemies of Rome. Everyone knows about Spartacus,
Gaul, Carthage, the Goths/Visigoths and the Vandals, but the Sassanids and Parthians were constantly fighting the Romans and fucking up their trade routs.

>>2636427
>this pasta again

Isn't this the 4th time you've posted this shit?

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>>2636522
I'm hoping you're just pretending to be retarded

>>2636522
استان فارس

>>2636593
>>2636586

Do sand runes look like bukkake to anyone else? Whenever I see Arabic calligraphy, for example, it looks like someone blew a load of jizz all over the page.

>>2636642
No, but I think Freud would like you a lot.

>>2636586
>The Academy of Persian Language and Literature has declared that the name Persian is more appropriate, as it has the longer tradition in western languages and better expresses the role of the language as a mark of cultural and national continuity.[32] Some Persian language scholars such as Ehsan Yarshater, editor of Encyclopædia Iranica, and University of Arizona professor Kamran Talattof, have also rejected the usage of "Farsi" in their articles
It tells me you are retarded at the very least.

>>2636660
You are a dumb motherfucker. When have I ever referred to English?

In the Persian language, the language is called >>2636586

"Man Farsi harf mizanam"

Unless of course you're a dumb diaspora kid from LA who can't even speak the language of the people that you LARP.

>>2636033
>all Iranian people are Persian

I love this meme

>>2636746
>all this goal post moving
>all this trying to poison the well with non-sequitur and nonsense
Neato.

>>2636769

Well, you have the Medes, Scythians, and some Arabic intermixture as well. But overall yes. Iran was just the internal section of the Persian empire at one time. Moreover you could argue Azarbaijan, Afghanistan, and Iraq people are partially or wholely Persian by ethnicity.

Every peoples has some intermixture from their neighbors. Miscegenation is to blame, eternally.

>>2636653

>freud

a hack.

>>2636822
Outside of some Arabs from the Arabian Penninsular in the mid-3rd century by Shapur, being relocated forcibly in Khuzestan region (in modern times vernacular), there's little intermixing on that specific front. Though I've heard a large number of Iraqi "Arabs" are genetically closer to their Iranian neighbors then other Arab speaking peoples in the Levant or Near East.

As for the Medes, we know practically nothing about them. Considering Cyrus the Great was the last Median ruler's maternal grandson, I don't think there was any ethnic divide between Medes and Persians.

>>2636822
>Iran was just the internal section of the Persian empire at one time. Moreover you could argue Azarbaijan, Afghanistan, and Iraq people are partially or wholely Persian by ethnicity.

This is what P*ersians actually believe

>>2636940
Afghanistan, Iran, and Tajikistan are more accurately form the Persiate basis of Iranian lands in particular. Which is why its called the Greater Iran.
>P*ersians
Hello faggot.

>>2636033
Were the Persian empires connected by anything, like lineage, or were they largely independent from each other outside of geography?

>>2636051
Zoroastrianism is the Original Aryan Religion

Every IE must convert to the Good Religion

>>2636033
So this thread is only about pre-islamic iran?

>>2636310
Can you explain this graph to me? I dont really get it

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>>2636940

Are you actually retarded?

>>2636418
He probably was a pretty good general, although we have absolutely no way to prove that. The story about putting his camels in the front line while fighting the Lydians is telling though

>>2637114
He did easily defeat the Egyptian Empire, defeat and conqueror the Lydian Empire, and the Neo-Babylonian Empire in a relatively short amount of time did the strong rulers in each of those states.

>>2637123
He didn't defeat Egypt that was Cambyses

What are some good books on the Parthian and Sassanian Empires?

>>2637132
I meant he was able to rout their forces aiding the Medians and Neo Babylonian Empire. Yes, the actual conquest was achieved by Cambyses, I'm aware of that.

>>2637068
Post-Islamic Iran was not Persian

>>2636033
Parthia was not a Persian empire

>>2637164
It retained Persianate culture, which is why it never became another Arab state

>>2637168
Parni are like the British Celtics to the Persian's Gauls

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>>2636940

>t. butthurt "Azerbaijani" turkroach

Cyrus best ruler

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>>2636033
Persian philosophizing was probably the best method. Also encouraged group cohesion.

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>>2636417
>>2636051
>>2636100

Zoroastrian effort posting is the official board culture of /his/

How important is Persia compared to the likes of Egypt, Greece, Mesopotamia, Rome and China?

>numerous mentions of Cyrus
>literally a jewish messiah

I know /his/ tries to be the anti-/pol/ but why pick the pleb-tier choice

>>2640872
>I know /his/ tries to be the anti-/pol/
No, it doesn't. Barely anyone here cares about /pol/. You clearly do, though, so fuck off back there.

>>2640812
Pretty important. Dunno how you would directly quantify it though. Certainly in the East you have it being the language of academia, poetry, Persians/Iranians being very important to the development of Islam as well as Zoroastrianism's influence on what would become Judaism and the rest of modern Abrahamic faiths tenants and beliefs. Other things like liberation of the Jews at Babylon, Darius' engineering feat of the Persian Suez Canal, the basis of the postage system and courier messengers come from Persia, etc...

>>2640872
>I know /his/ tries to be the anti-/pol/
>t. /pol/

Rumi was white.

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224 - Ardashir topples the Parthian empire

>>2636427
pretty accurate desu

t. Iranian

>>2636483
>All the tour guides in Shiraz must be lying then. I'm sure its a grand conspiracy only you uncovered.
The fact that it used to be pronounced with a /p/ is a historical curiosity, nothing more.

Here's the Farsi Wikipedia page on it.
https://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA%D8%A7%D9%86_%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%B3

This Iranian author only uses the historical term under the etymology section. Every map produced in Iran of Iran says Fars. And the vast majority of Iranians who don't have an axe to grind say Fars(i), just as they greet with salaam instead of durood.

Grow the fuck up, armchair shah.

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>>2636940
>>2636822
Persians were Aryans mixed with Elamites.

You can see their genetic legacy in the area that was Persia to the south west of the Caspian.

The Persian language is related to the peoples east of Iran. Persians one of the last steppe peoples to settle in the Middle East, the Turkic peoples being the last major group.

>>2636660
So.. expats? Yarshater's been in New York for decades. Try someone who's actually been in Iran since 1979.

Also
>told that it's pronounced /f/ in the vernacular by the majority
>appeals to a handful of scholars with an interest in historical Iran

kek

>>2637058
Go fuck your sister, Babak jan.

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/marriage-next-of-kin

I speculate the the Medes ruled the peoples of the future Persian Empire as a nomadic people. This is why we don't have much evidence for their control of their empire or domains.

>>2639281
More likely Zoroastrianism will be dead by the end of this century thanks to Muslim persecution in Iran and Parsis' insular refusal to accept converts and ever-growing intermarriage and simple secularism.

Guess Good Thoughts, Words, and Deeds only get you so far.

>>2636033
Trying to sift through all the /int/ shitposting. As for:
>Who was the best Persian ruler?
I'd go with the patrician choice and choose Karim Khan Zand. He gave 40+ years of stability to Iran after the late Safavid antics, the Hotaki conquest and Nader Shah's warmongering. He had commoner origins and became a ruler through merit. He cared for the ordinary people and tried to improve their lives. He was a proto-republican, never claimed the title of shah, but called himself Vakil e-Ra'áyá, Advocate of the People. Even though he wasn't a really devout person, he's the only ruler of pre-revolutionary Iran that's commemorated by the Islamic Republic government.

>Which empire out of the Achaemenid, Parthian and Sassanid ones was the most important?

There's really no contest since the Achaemenids ruled like 40% of the world's population at the time. Not to mention being hugely influential on the Western world as well, via Judaism and Greek philosophy.

>>2636660
That's advocating for common use of 'Persian' in English, you dumb fuck, not what Persian speakers say amongst themselves; French speakers don't go around saying 'Je parle le French'.

It says it right there
>as it has the longer tradition in western languages

>>2641507
Patrician taste and knowledge.

Post-Islamic Persian empires are criminally underrated (the great irony being that after the Samanids, they were all Turkic dynasties kek).

>>2636033
Achaemenids literally started the Meme that there must be an Empire in Persia.

Not to mention much of their culture laid the foundations of Middle Eastern culture. Check out the Achaemenid concept of Circle of Justice and how it influenced the legal framework of the region (for example: Sharia Law takes chunks of it.)

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>>2641517
>Post-Islamic Persian empires are criminally underrated
Yeah I don't know much about them desu.

>muh first declaration of human rights

>read text of Cyrus Cylinder
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=327188&partId=1

>no mention whatsoever of intrinsic human rights all peoples everywhere are entitled to

Iranians are hacks.

>>2636427
>>2636465
>>2641452
(You)

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>>2641573
Nice try, Ali Kazem.

>>2641522
There's lot of cool stuff there. Like the republic of Sarbedar movement (literally Hangmen) that shifted between Sufi mystics and cunning merchants ruling it, created around the town of Sabzevar as a fuck you to late Mongol rulers shitting up the country. Unfortunately Timur went medieval on their asses.

The first Safavids were heads of a Sufi order too, and their practices diverged a lot from usual Muslim stuff. They were considered incarnate gods by their order, and undefeatable in battle. Their soldiers, the Qizilbashi were much more fanatical than the Janissaries and did stuff like cooking their enemies and eating them. This lasted until Ismail lost the battle at Chalderan against the Ottomans, largely because the Qizilbashi thought a surprise attack against the Turks would be unfair and so spent the night before battle getting drunk. After the battle, the rulers lost their aura of divinity and basically had to spend the next 200 years fighting against the Qizilbashi that controlled all the key positions in the state, but stopped obeying their rulers.

In early 1700s the Safavid state degenerated to the degree that it was conquered by the Afghans who created the Hotaki empire. This is probably the equivalent of Appallachian hillbillies taking over Washington DC, seeing how Pashtuns were basically tribal highlanders who never had a state up until that point. The early leader of the Hotakis, Mirwais was captured by the Safavids after a failed rebellion and after becoming a prisoner at the Safavid court pretty much went all Sauron in Numenor style, and ended up controlling the different parties at the court himself.

After the shitstorm there was Nader Shah, who was called the Persian Napoleon. He was a strategic genius and reconquered pretty much all of historical Persian imperial lands. Unfortunately later on he went insane and paranoid.

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>>2636427
This sound fine to me desu, whats so bad about some Iranian guy who likes his native heritage and dislikes the fact that Mussies turned a once great empire into a bombed out wasteland.

Not everyone likes MadMax-sheek

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>>2641587
Yet another part of the Middle East that sank from greatness into being a backwater.

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>>2641587
>shifted between Sufi mystics and cunning merchants
> Their soldiers, the Qizilbashi were much more fanatical than the Janissaries and did stuff like cooking their enemies and eating them

So lemme get this straight... some "((merchants))" ruled over ancient iran, and the solider Qizilbashi larped as maoris eating their enemies..


Yeaaah Pre-islamic history seems better to me senpai. Seems like historically after the fall of Persia Iran became a burned out shithole. I dont think a merchant nation guarded by sub-human cannibals seems like a neat place in comparison no offense.

>>2641582
>3 minutes later
Neato.

>>2641517
>all of them save the Samanids were Turkic
2/10

White guy who went to Iran twice. Iranians are the most sociable and nicest people I have ever met. They're also really religious, but don't really care when you are not. The diaspora cunts are in the US, their rich fathers were probably feasting of the American oil money and the shah puppet regime, so they got indoctrinated as children that Iran is a terrible place. It's not. The people there are extremely open, hospitable, friendly and sensitive.

Actually, fuck it. This is 4chan. You will not believe me anyway. Have a nice day.

>>2641666
This

I actually toured through Iran for like a week and had the same experience, I was worried at the time because the United States didnt have the best record with Iran/Iraq but everyone was extremely kind. People there were actually more welcoming to me as a westerner than the more "liberal/progressive" Lebanon that I visited next.

what are the best academic sources regarding persian history in english (both before and after islamization)?

Alexander did nothing wrong

>>2641833
>sacks persepolis
FUCK ALEXANDER

>>2641851
you thought she'd never get the sacc? lel too bad

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>>2641851

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>>2641863
;-;

Why were Achaemenid names so badass

>>2642124
>Tissaphernes

I like it.

>>2641885
ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ ΤΟ ΜΕΓΑ

How much did the Mesopotamians and Egyptians influence the Persians?

>>2641664
>Ghaznavids
Turkic
>Ghurids
Afghan or Tajik
>Seljuks
Turkic
>Khwarezmians
Turkic
>Mongols/Ilkhans
Self-explanatory
>Timurids
Turco-Mongol
>Safavids
Azeri Turk
>Hotakis
Afghans
>Afsharids
Turkic
>Zands
Lur
>Qajars
Turkic
>Pahlavis
lol who cares

Great track record there. Persians are cucks.

>>2642253
>Mesopotamians

Overwhelmingly

>Egyptians

Very little

>>2642228
FUCK OFF IANNIS

>>2642329
>Ghurids
Iranic
>Safavids
Iranic
>Zands
Iranic
>Hotakis
Iranic
>Pahlavis
Persian/Iranic

>>2641666
I was there but I didnt saw them being that religious. Well they arent atheists of course but many were critical about the regime and some islamic laws

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>>2636033
>Achaemenid
Why do we know so little about them despite the fact they ruled basically all of the Middle East at their height?

>>2642657
We know quite a bit about them though. The main problem lies in the fact that they were an oral culture and the destruction of persepolis.

>>2642556
Iranic =/= Persian

>>2642669
>The main problem lies in the fact that they were an oral culture
What, you mean they didn't have any kind of writing system?

>>2642669
Yeah, through Herodotus and Aeschylus and other Greek writers.

Besides some propaganda pieces in cuneiform, we have little first hand accounts.

>>2642685
>original claim is all Islamic dynasties of Persia are non-Iranian and specifically Turkic
>points out this factually untrue
Nah.

All Persians are Iranian/Iranic, just like Afghans are Iranian/Iranic, and Tajiks are Iranian/Iranic, and Gialkis, and Lurs, etc...

>>2642700
>Herodutus
>Aeschlyus
>first hand accounts

>>2642696
They did but it was mostly reserved for administrative and bureaucratic purposes. Inacriptions in Cuneiform by the kings and governmental documents in Aramaic (the lingua franca of the empire).

>>2642696
They did but they preferred passing their history and culture through word of mouth rather than write it down. They write to keep records for administration such as Persepolis.

>>2642706
Nope. I said there were virtually no PERSIAN empires of note post-Samanids. Not that there wasn't any Iranic ones. By virtue of assimiliation, they were all Iranic past the first generation or two, if they lasted that long.

>>2642685
That guy here >>2641517 claimed all dynasties of Iran/Persia after they became Muslim were Turkic save the Samanids. That's a patently false belief and lie. Also don't get why bringing up different Iranian tribes and peoples ruling Persia is an issue for not being Persian yet different tribes of Turks is somehow not a problem?

>>2642715
>Aeschylus
>didn't personally fight in the Greco-Achaemenid wars

Shoo shoo troll

>>2642744
When did Aeschylus experience living in Persia itself? What does he know of civilian life in the Persian Empire outside of it from a soldier's perspective you dong?

>>2642737
Because not all Iranic peoples are Persian? Whereas all Turkic people are, well, Turkic?

>>2642761
This is the worst form of mental gymnastics in this thread. Do you think being Turkic means the same universal language and culture among Turks? Because it doesn't. You are literally applying double standards by handwaving this for Persians being a fellow Iranic people and ignoring the dozens of different tribes of Turkic peoples being different in language, culture, and customs from one another.

>>2642750
>living in Persia itself
What the fuck does that have to do with it, you drooling autist.

He was contemporaneous with the Achaemenids. He met them face to face. Hell, he probably killed them. He definitely would've met some or else people who had been to Persia.

Not a difficult concept; round peg, round hole.

>>2642761
Persians are an Iranian people.
Lurs are an Iranian people.
Tajikis are an Iranian people.
Afghanis are an Iranian people.
Balouchis are an Iranain people.
Gilakis are an Iranian people.

>>2642772
He doesn't give us any information on Achaemenid culture, history, or the customs of the Persians you mongoloid.

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>Greeks are inferi---
>o shit

kek

>>2642776
And yet we know a lot more about the Achaemenids through the Greeks than we do through the Achaemenids.

In fact, much of what Herodotus says meshes perfectly with our knowledge of Persian culture through Zoroastrianism. In the religion, the greatest sin is druj (lie, deceit, treachery). Herodotus says that the most reviled person in the eyes of a Persian is the liar. Modern historians normally take a favourable view of Herodotus being accurate in relaying an image of the Persians, the typical exaggerations and biases of ancient authors notwithstanding.

>>2642839
Herodotus said Ahura Mazda is just an aspect of Zeus, which is clearly bullshit. He also conflates a story of Greek myth into Achaemenid history which historians have confirmed many times as a lie. Dude is relevant but there's a reason why he's generally considered a bad source for information since most of what he talks about doesn't come from first hand experience.

>>2642868
A lot of what Herodotus said is directly contradicted by modern archaeological evidence, this pertains to Mesopotamia as well as Persia.

>>2636033
>Who was the best Persian ruler?
Shapur, Darius, Mithridates, Khosrou, Cmabyes...

AND CYRUS

>Which empire out of the Achaemenid, Parthian and Sassanid ones was the most important?
Sassanids are important in culture and art, Parthians for military influences, and Achaemenids for everything.

>Why was Persia perpetually warring with the Greeks and Romans?
Greeks harassed Persia caused rebellions in Ionia first, so Persia obviously tried to stop them.

And With Romans, they just fucked around lol

>>2642839
>Hero "The father of lies" dotus
>reliable

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>>2636067
>The entire Greek model of empire (satrapies, etc.) was based on the Achaemenids.
Always makes me laugh to be honest.

>Greeks: EEEEW SLAVISH EASTERNERS WITH KINGS!
A hundred years later
>Also Greeks: MUH BASILEUS IS BETTER THAN YOOOOURS.

>>2643428
Don't forget

>Greeks/Macedonians: Persians are sissies who can't into heavy infantry!
>A century later
>Greeks/Macedonians: MUH CATAPHRACTSSSS REEEE PARTHIA, REE SASSANIDS

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>>2636091
They're ok tier

>>2643288
How did Persia come to own Greek Ionia?

>>2643731
They just invaded them lol, but it was very unstable so Persians set up tyrants to rule them.

Kinda like how US set up dictators in south america

>>2636033
>God tier
Achaemenid

>Great tier
Sassanid

>Good tier
Parthia

>Meh tier
Media

>Shit tier
Seleucid

>JUST tier
Elam

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>>2643923
>God tier
But the Sassynids and Arsacids (Parthians for th plebeians) both lasted a lot longer then the Achaemenids did.

>>2643962
Quality > Quantity

>>2642253
The early Persians were huge Mesoboos

>>2643428
>>2643648
I think that view of the Persians being little more than BARBAR barbarians more or less died by the time of Alexander. Alexander clearly idolised the Persian way of life and political system. Some say he was even dressing like a Persian and saw himself as a shahanshah by the time of his death - good cause for someone to have him assassinated.

The Romans had respect for the Persians, recognising them as a civilised people.

>I am Darius, the great king, king of kings, the king of Persia, the king of countries, the son of Hystaspes, the grandson of Arsames, the Achaemenid.

(2) King Darius says: My father is Hystaspes; the father of Hystaspes was Arsames; the father of Arsames was Ariaramnes; the father of Ariaramnes was Teispes; the father of Teispes was Achaemenes.

(3) King Darius says: That is why we are called Achaemenids; from antiquity we have been noble; from antiquity has our dynasty been royal.

(4) King Darius says: Eight of my dynasty were kings before me; I am the ninth. Nine in succession we have been kings.

(5) King Darius says: By the grace of Ahuramazda am I king; Ahuramazda has granted me the kingdom.

(6) King Darius says: These are the countries which are subject unto me, and by the grace of Ahuramazda I became king of them: Persia, Elam, Babylonia, Assyria, Arabia, Egypt, the countries by the Sea, Lydia, the Greeks, Media, Armenia, Cappadocia, Parthia, Drangiana, Aria, Chorasmia, Bactria, Sogdia, Gandara, Scythia, Sattagydia, Arachosia and Maka; twenty-three lands in all.

(7) King Darius says: These are the countries which are subject to me; by the grace of Ahuramazda they became subject to me; they brought tribute unto me. Whatsoever commands have been laid on them by me, by night or by day, have been performed by them.

(8) King Darius says: Within these lands, whosoever was a friend, him have I surely protected; whosoever was hostile, him have I utterly destroyed. By the grace of Ahuramazda these lands have conformed to my decrees; as it was commanded unto them by me, so was it done.

(9) King Darius says: Ahuramazda has granted unto me this empire. Ahuramazda brought me help, until I gained this empire; by the grace of Ahuramazda do I hold this empire.

Praise Ahura Mazda

>>2645092
>quality
>implodes and is erased in the single greatest fuck up in all history

What was quality about the Achaemenids other than the initial conquests of Darius and the 44% of the global human population?

>>2636051
There's an entire thread about Zoroastrian up right now.

>>2645316
That's a bit unfair. Alexander's empire lasted only a few years and imploded the day after his death but no one denies its lasting impact on the world.

Same with the Achaemenids. They set the stage and wrote the book for what would be considered a successful empire up until our own day.

>BTFO by nomadic camel riders

Jesus Christ how embarrassing

>>2645295
Most Greeks idolized Cyrus, Alexander really wasn't an exception.

>>2645330
Difference is the Sassanids are a lot more relevant to modern Iranians and Persians then the Achaemenids are. Especially when you consider the context of culture, customs, language, ethnic and national identity, and so on.

>>2645092
Sassanids were quality though. They had two golden ages, the name of Khosrau/Khosrow/Kosrow is the literal Persian equivalent to Caesar in the West with its denotation of a supreme benevolent ruler. You can say the Achaaemenids were larger and arguably the first *true* global empire (stretching from Europe, Africa, Asia, etc...) but that's about it.

>>2642669
>Persepolis is why we don't have any accounts of them!
There were 4 Persian capitals, and Alexander never did anything like genocide to the Persians. Sorry, but there likely wasn't any literary accounts (that would've survived) had Persepolis not get destroyed. Athens got destroyed by the Persians, had it's walls teared down by the Spartans, and got invaded by the Romans but they never lost all literary accounts from their citizens after that.
>>2642750
We know some half-truths from Xenophon and Ctetias. The Former fighting and befriending Cyrus, the later being in the court of Artaxerxes.
>>2642776
Herodotus goes into Achaemenid culture, history, and customs. His account of Darius' coming to power is pretty much the same as the Behistun inscription commissioned by Darius himself that explained the same events (i.e. how Cambyses II killed his brother and when he was gone in Egypt, someone impersonated his brother and revolted, and Cambyses II dies along the way there, and Darius and a few men remove him are both the same in the two accounts). Herodotus' mentions of the subjects of the Empire are also pretty spot on with what Old Persian inscription lists say who they are. His mentioning of Darius' father and lineage are spot on. He correctly documents that they call the Scythians 'Sakas'.

>>2646061
>Most Greeks idolized Cyrus

Hahahaha what a bunch of cucks. Alexander wasn't even Greek either. Greeks can't into military expansionism.

>>2636231
gr8 b8 m8

>>2636249
Are you currently wearing pants?

>>2636335
hello iranica chan

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>>2645312
Praise Ahura Mazda

>>2646328
Braise Ahurba Mazba :-DDDD

>>2641666

Tell us where you went, anon. Did you see any /his/ sites?

I'd like to go to Iran some day, but looks like our masters are shilling for us to war with them for the profit of the banksters.

I've heard similar from some documentary on jewtube. Apparently the bus there can randomly be two days late, though. But the people seemed very friendly.

>>2646277

Pants came from the Celts. Nice try tho.

>>2646647
if you are american its not worth going, you won't get a same experience.

i went to iran and let me say, iranian youth are very promiscuous just like any other. you just have to be careful who you hang around. i was in a car in esfahan and this girl was giving a hand job in the back seat to one of my friends. another time in a movie theater one of her friends sucked my dick for a second and we went back to her house and fugged.

>>2646647
>>2646663
>if you are american its not worth going, you won't get a same experience.
actually never mind this. it is worth going but the experience will be more controlled. americans have to have a government tour guide with them constantly. but its worth going to see through the (((media))) lies. iranians are unironically based. so nice and so friendly. full of life and a sense of community, not like depressed and anxious fat assholes in my country. it will make me cry when the rest of the world bombs them.

>>2646663
>>2646678
>if you are american its not worth going
>government tour guide

Why must I be punished for what my shitty government has done? Feels bad man. I just want to look at old fire temples and see the ruins of the gorgon wall.

Is the food good?

>>2646705
i have heard the govt. tour guides are nice but they are there to keep an eye on you of course.

food is elder god tier. my friends took me to one place that served super slow cooked lamb in a clay pot holy shit talk about melt in your mouth.

>>2640872
>I know /his/ tries to be anti-/pol/
no, most of /his/ tries to be /pol/-lite, no pun intended

>>2641666
yeah ok satan
the people are nice, the government is not

>>2645316
The Achaemenids contributed heavily to the fabric of western culture, the Arascids and Sassanids did not

>>2645295
>I think that view of the Persians being little more than BARBAR barbarians more or less died by the time of Alexander.
Well, they never considered them barbarians in the sense of uncivilised. Persian thoughts and concepts were used all the time in philosophy, historiography, etc. Xenophon's Cyropaedia portrayed Cyrus as the ideal ruler for instance. And Zoroaster was known to be the father of mystery cults and magic.

>The Romans had respect for the Persians, recognising them as a civilised people.
The Parthians were pretty much the only people whom they considered their equals, as evidenced in the titulature used in letters, and the emperors meeting with the Arsacid rulers on equal terms several times.

>>2646158
>Sorry, but there likely wasn't any literary accounts (that would've survived) had Persepolis not get destroyed.
That's why the other dude underlined that they were an oral culture. Writing was considered Ahriman's work sometimes. Obviously they did have to have some written records for the bookkeeping and accounting - those were probably kept at the capital(s) and lost during collapse. Had they been more literate in general, stuff might have survived - but it didn't. Also we have accounts of Alexander ordering the destruction of Zoroastrian literature, so there's precedent for stuff not surviving because of him - even if the extent of writings being lost is probably later hyperbole.

>>2646848
The Sassanids and Byzantines court traditions, customs, and diplomatic engagements played a huge role on how Europe kingdoms would conduct their own statemenship ceremonies and interactions so I'm gonna disagree there with the Sassanids.

Hell, the Sassanids were also trading and interacting with Germanics and Slavic peoples in Europe even when not at war with the Byzantines. So they had an influence alright.

>>2646868
>>2646848
Sassanid feudal model, chivalry, knights in armor is literally the basis for the European ones that gave rise to the Renaissance & beyond. Sorry for my shitty english my grammar sucks.

>>2646882
Yeah, definitely. In fact jousting and tourney equestrian combat being popular in Sassanid territories and urban center for freeman to nobles is also a definite parallel with feudal age/medieval Europe's jousting and and mounted combat tourneys.

Gotta love parallels between IE peoples.

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>>2636033
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_people#History

>See also: Ancient Iranian peoples and Proto-Indo-Europeans

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>>2648746
>Stand back my nuggets, we got this.

>>2641542
>liberated slaves
>liberated jews
>gives religious rights to liberated people
>not declaration of human rights

>>2641542
First mention of concepts like freedom and liberty are from ancient Sumer

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Who would win in an all-out war, the Achaemenids or the Assyrians?

>>2648769
But when were they actually enforced in practicality? That's right, by based Cyrus the Great, son.

>>2648778
Seeing as how the Achaemenids defeated the Medes who defeated and split apart the Neo-Assyrian Empire with the Neo-Babylonian Kingdom (who the Persians also defeated), I'd think the Persians would've easily won under Cyrus.

>>2648785
About 2000 years before cyrus was born in a rebellion against the priest kings

>>2649026
A lot of advancements between then and the relative now of the rise of the Achaemenids anon. We're talking about the same guy who was leading armies and defeating the military powers of the four greatest macro-states of the time Persia rose: Neo-Babylonians, Lydians, Egyptians, and Medes.

>>2648762
>politically expedient actions = universal charter of human rights
kek holy anachronism batman

The cylinder and history tell us simply what happened. Not that all humans, everywhere are entitled to not be enslaved and have religious freedom. Freedom of thought was certainly not encouraged. Besides, the Persians did used slave labour all the way from the Achaemenids to the Sassanids, albeit on a smaller than the Romans.

It's well known - though suppresses - that the >first UDHR meme was promoted by the Pahlavis in the run up to the 2500 year celebration of Persia.

The cylinder is not a declaration of human rights; it's not even a precursor to it.

>>2648769
Does the basic concept of a declaration of human rights escape you? Talking about freedom and liberty does not a human right make. If there are any mentions of such things in Sumer, it definitely only extends to Sumerian men (inb4 SJW) and noble/land-owning men at that.

This is the only document entailing universal human rights and dignity in the history of the world - and it is a thoroughly modern phenomenon.
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Documents/UDHR_Translations/eng.pdf

>>2651033
>slave labor
>Achaemenids
Citation please.

>>2648785
>Seeing as how the Achaemenids defeated the Medes who defeated and split apart the Neo-Assyrian Empire with the Neo-Babylonian Kingdom (who the Persians also defeated), I'd think the Persians would've easily won under Cyrus.
Maybe, but the Assyrians had more territory than both the Medes and Babylonians individually and Cyrus' armies conquered those entities in sequence, not together.

>>2651650
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/barda-i

Again, no where near as extensive as the Romans, but it was there.

>>2653131
>>2651650
A quick search also brought this up. It's Plebbit but r/AskHistorians is usually solid.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2aig70/how_was_the_persian_empire_able_to_survivethrive/

-

On a separate note, I found this post about 'Zoroastrianism' during the Achaemenid period also quite fascinating.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/11oopo/comment/c6oaosq

>>2637055

Median and Parthian empires weren't Persian, and they weren't Iranian either. There's no proof that they spoke an Iranic language - considering that both groups came from the steppe they likely spoke tocharian or other unknown indo-European language very different from Iranic subgroup. They also looked different, Scythians looked Scandinavian while Persians from Persia prime looked like a mixture of Arabs and Indians.

>>2637231

No they weren't. There's no evidence they spoke an Iranic language. They likely spoke a language similar to tocharian.

>>2653683
Medes are Iranics and so are Parthians
Nobody's talking about Scythians here, get your pseudo intellectual Indo-European fantasy out off the thread

>>2653770

Medians and Parthians were a Scythian people and their is no evidence they spoke Iranic. They likely spoke a language similar to tocharian or perhaps a lost indo-European language isolate.

Either way they were all different from Persians.

>>2653683
>>2654787
>spoke tocharian and different from indo-europeans
[citation needed]

>>2653683
>Scandinavian
Weird way to say Slavic

>>2643720
The Arche Seleukia is pretty close to the top of the "Coulda been a contenda" list of empires desu

>>2654787
>Medians and Parthians were a Scythian people
Wrong.
>their is
There, not "their", ESL kun.
>no evidence they spoke Iranic
Considering the Medes were already sedentary and we have seen a few root loan words that all have the same PIE origin points as their Old Persian counterparts, your full of shit.
>spoke a language similar to Tocharian
See above.
>they were different from Persians
The Medes were not. And the Parni are closely related to both.

>>2653683
Also

>Persians from Persia prime
>Persia prime
???
>looked like a mixture of Arabs and Indians
Nope. Nice faux eugenics and racialology bullshit though.

>>2651650
-Arsama (satrap of Egypt) letters that he mentions personal slaves he owns and his orders to punish some of them. He also mentions so the guy who it is addressed to that they have their own unique brands.
-Behistun inscription that mentions how Darius restored household slaves and the estates they belong to, after Gaugamata / Smerdis allegedly took them from the nobles.
-Babylonian, Persepolis, and Elaphatine palace records of slave sales that contain dates and the ruling Persian monarchs
-Elaphatine documents of Achaemenid troops and settlers that contain wills and marriage contracts that mention the inheritance of slaves.
-Greek texts, both from those who had a sympthatic or indifferent view of them (Xenophon and Ctetias), and those who hated them, saying that they often took slaves of captive people.
-Book of Nehemiah that mentions how Persian taxes have gotten so out of hand that Jews started to sell their own children. Which is pretty funny considering it still praises Artaxerxes in it and Jews continued having a positive image of Darius and Cyrus

It's quite amazing how Persian nationalists and eristic anti-Westerner liberals really managed to push this myth to being included in introductionary textbooks and sources.

Can someone please give me some recommended reading for the Sassanid and Parthian Empires?

>>2656686
http://www.cais-soas.com/articles/history_articles.htm

>>2643731
Ionia was conquered by Lydia in the ~560's BC, then Cyrus conquered Lydia

>>2656689
thank you ahura mazda

>>2656686
Dr. K's stuff.

Does anyone know about the Eran - Turan aggressions? who the fuck were Turanians?

This article says Turanians are considered to be turks, and then ten breaths later says,

>The legend in Persian presents Iranians and Turanians as of one stock.
>The Avesta shows them as the people living close to one another.
>It also shows that the two belong to the same creed and worshipped the same gods and goddesses.
>The legend and the Avesta show that there were a number of battles between Iranians and Turanians over a family feud.
>The feud belongs only to the pre-Zarathushtrian times.

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/prehistory/iranians_turan_avesta.htm

What was the family feud over? Any books that deal with the subject?

>>2658273
Turan was situated in modern day pakistan. Nothing to do with turks

>>2658273
Turanism is a modern socio-political bullshit for pan-Turkism in today's vernacular. Actual Turanians in Iranian folklore are one of the brother people.

>Mankind are divided into brother ethnicities/races because their progenitors were brothers who had the same father
>Turanians and Iranians get into a war over the boundaries of their nations
Yadda yadda.

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I wonder if Napoleon's tomb is based off of the Cyrus one.

>>2653683
You are a dumb moron, people 2000 years ago looked very different, Indians have been inbreeding for the last 2000 years, while Middle Easter people have been inbreeding for the last 1400 at least.

>>2656672
Just as you can't have a decent thread about ERE without byzaboos ruining it you can't have a Sassanid / Achamenid thread without diaspora fags ruining it.

It comes with the territory