Patriotism vs Nationalism

>>2634279
Also wanted to add this quote i found

The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen. The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short, since their failings will be constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.

- Arthur Schopenhauer

thoughts?

>>2634279
Both are beneficial to society.

Patriotism: "I like my country"

Nationalism: "My leaders should put my country's interests first."

>>2634279
Patriotism is loyalty to a political unit. Nationalism is loyalty to a "nation", which is usually defined as some sort of language based ethnicity. So no, they're not the same thing. A nationalist and a patriotic pair of Transylvanians back in 1914 Austria-Hungary are likely to have very, very different views on things.

>>2634287
Pants on head retarded. Human beings are tribalistic as a survival instinct, Schopey doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

>>2634279

PATRIOTISM IS LOVE FOR THE COUNTRY/THE POLITY/THE STATE.

NATIONALISM IS LOVE FOR THE NATION/THE PEOPLE.

>>2634295

THE QUOTATION CONFLATES NATIONALISM, WITH PATRIOTISM, AND WITH TRIBALISM, BUT YOUR OWN STATEMENT IS MERELY MORONIC.

1. NOT ALL HUMAN INDIVIDUALS ARE TRIBALISTIC.

2. TRIBALISM, AND NATIONALISM, ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE; NATIONALISM ENTAILS UNITY, WHILST TRIBALISM ENTAILS DIVISION.

>>2634295
but we don't live in tribes anymore.

every fool has built-in instincts, not every fool can suppress these instincts and think rationally.

>>2634290
if you like your country doesn't that automatically mean that you wish your leaders to put your interests first?

>>2634327
YOU ARE A STUPID MEXICAN AND HAVE NEVER STUDIED HISTORY. WHY DON'T YOU LOOK AT PLACES LIKE AUSTRIA-HUNGARY, THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE, SPAIN, AND TIBET TO SEE HOW MUCH UNITY NATIONALISM BRINGS.

>>2634345
>how much unity subjugation brings

ftfy

>>2634345
Idiot.

>>2634327
>>2634330
>>2634345
>>2634338
>>2634351
>>2634352
Nationalism and Patriotism are just extensions of in-group/out-group thinking which is crucial to a group's long term survival.

Nationalism is just a particular species of Tribalism [which in this context refers to that kind of Team Loyalty thinking] and Patriotism is just certain thoughts and sentiments about one's Team.

>>2634279
Patriotism - loyalty to the state
Nationalism - loyalty to ethnic group

>>2634355

YOUR POST IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE TYPICAL DISPLAY OF PERVERSION OF TRIBALIST IDIOTS LIKE YOURSELF INCAPABLE OF COMPREHENDING SENTIMENTS OF UNITY, AND SELFLESSNESS, SO, YOU RESORT TO PROJECT YOUR OWN TRIBALISM ON THE CONCEPT OF NATION, MAKING IT JUST A BIGGER TRIBE.

>>2634327
>nationalism entails unity

nationalism entails unity in ones own group, just like tribalism, however it entails division when it comes to dealing with other groups.

>>2634364
>Nationalism - loyalty to ethnic group

NO.

THE NATION IS NOT EQUIVALENT WITH ETHNICITY; A NATION CAN BE CONSTITUTED BY MORE THAN ONE ETHNICITY, BUT AN ETHNICITY IS NOT NECESSARILY A NATION.

>>2634365
The Nation is just a big tribe. The entire error of modern cosmopolitanism is its promotion of internationalism instead of Earth Nationalism.

>>2634373
>>2634365
LOOK EVERYONE, I HAVE A TRIP CODE AND SPEAK IN ALL CAPS. I AM SO SMART.

>>2634371
>nationalism entails unity in ones own group, just like tribalism...

NATIONALISM ENTAILS UNITY OF THE NATION, WHICH IS ONE GROUP.

TRIBALISM ENTAILS DIVISION OF THE NATION INTO TRIBES, WHICH ARE MANY GROUPS.

>... however it entails division when it comes to dealing with other groups.

?

>>2634338
not really

>>2634375

YOU ARE JUST REAFFIRMING MY STATEMENT.

>>2634378
nationalism is basically larger scale tribalism was my point

>>2634393

YES, WHICH IS WHY YOU ARE REAFFIRMING MY STATEMENT REGARDING YOUR INCAPABILITY TO COMPREHEND THE SENTIMENT, AND CONCEPT, OF NATIONALISM, PERVERTING IT INTO LARGER SCALE TRIBALISM.

IT DOES NOT SURPRISE THAT YOUR "READING COMPREHENSION" IS ABYSMAL...

>>2634383
Nationalism is just tribal thinking extended over a broader area. The same thinking that gathers savages beneath a totem gathers moderns behind a flag.

>>2634401
Says the man with a broken capslock button.

>>2634401
Hey, quick question:

Why don't you play "RISK" on /pol/ anymore?

>>2634401
while Caesar was in his Gallic campaign, he often reported migration of tribes, these tribes werent 20-40 people in size, no they often reached the numbers of 200,000+. Would you call 200,000 people of the same background a nation? What is the exact line that that separates a nation from a tribe?

>>2634287
The modern world is literally built on the tenets of nationalism. If you disagree you are just an edgelord.

>>2634439
i agree. but in the modern times, has nationalism created anything other than war?

>>2634287
>proud of nation
>therefore has nothing else to be proud of

stopped reading there, he might as well accuse all nationalists of having small dicks too. Garbage observation.

>>2634476
War is not a symptom of nationalism, it's a symptom of the human condition. War did not suddenly enter the fray of history in the 19th century. It's always been there.

>>2634519
so you are saying that nationalism does not cause war???? I disagree so much that I don't even know where to start

>>2634535
It causes as many wars as it prevents them. Do you need false dichotomies to operate your brain or are you capable of seeing the bigger picture?

Patriotism is basically civic nationalism.

Whereas nationalism is ethnic nationalism.

>muh country
Nationalism

>My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.
Patriotism

>>2634330
Do you watch football?

>>2634279
Patriotism has a more positive connotation
Nationalism has a more negative connotation

File: orwell.jpg (43KB, 471x600px) Image search: [Google]

43KB, 471x600px

>>2634279
"Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."

>>2634279
Nationalism is patriotism turned into patriautism.

>>2634365
sometimes I wonder if you're a troll, shill or an idiot but can you SHUT THE FUCK UP!

I SEE YOU IN EVERY THREAD AND YOU ALWAYS SPOUTING RETARDED SHIT!

>>2634853
>Do you watch football?

Sports fandom is a great example of redirecting retarded tribalism into something harmless.

>>2634279
Patriotism is more of a feeling or a social phenomenon. Nationalism is an actual political ideology.

>>2634345
Turn off Caps Lock you fucking mong

>>2634476
Nationalism doesn't create war. Leaders manipulating nationalism create wars.

>>2634279
Patriotism is about the country
Nationalism is about the nation

>Is either one beneficial in a society?
That's ideological question. Do you like big empires?

>>2634428
>What is the exact line that that separates a nation from a tribe?
Good question. For starters you don't know 99% of your nation, while you know majority of your tribe.

>>2634279

The difference is in the method of categorization.

They're like when "class" and "Clade" appear to be the same thing, though one is categorical, while the other is relative.

A patriot loves his ideal country, while a nationalist loves his ideal people. The common ground is that the patriot may find he likes the people in his ideal country, and the nationalist may find that he likes his ideal people's country.

>>2634287
Coming from a tribalistic perspective, if I said "I'm a fisherman", it's a baseless claim. How do you know I'm a fisherman? Maybe I could post a picture of myself holding a fish up. The more desperate I am to prove that I'm a fisherman, the less likely you are to believe that I am one. If I say "I'm a fisherman", then I'm assuming that role, and you could either live to accept it (if you know nothing of fishing), or you could test it (if you are also a fisherman). The standards of being a "Fisherman" increase relative to the standards that people apply through competition and social proofing.

Likewise, if I said "I'm a Canadian", then you could just accept it as a a matter of fact (If you aren't Canadian), or you could test me on how Canadian I am (If you are Canadian).

Arthur Schopenhauer doesn't understand the concept of "honour" as it relates to national pride. It's not that I call myself a proud ____ to appropriate the achievements of others in my group; I just want to be set to the standards of the group and judged adequately by my values and virtues.

>>2634330
A person's natural in-group is only about 10-20 members long. We're very tribalistic. The more people exist in our lives, the more we have to categorize them, and this is done socially so we don't have to do it cognitively.
My ingroup includes my brother, my mom, my dad, my sisters, my cousin, my passed gradparents, 3 co-workers, my best friend, my girlfriend, the community, and my extended family. Law is only real because THEY validate it.

>>2635325
>while a nationalist loves his ideal people
That's ethnonationalism you're describing, not nationalism in itself

>>2634287
>that whole quote
*tips fedora*

yes, they are essentially the same. Patriotism is just a friendlier work than Nationalism so we try to differentiate them.

>>2634586
sorry but i fail too see how nationalism can prevent wars

>>2634586
more so, i fail to see how it prevents as many wars as it begins (btw u are contradicting ur previous statement by agreeing that nationalism does cause war)

>>2634806
is civic nationalism not nationalism?

>>2635259
yet nationalism is a necessary catalyst for most wars

>>2634279
Patriotism is Jewish controlled nationalism toward Jewish ends. See Americuck for an example of how hollow Patriotism is.

Nationalism is celebrating the achievements of your people and only your people while seeking to fight off Jewish control. See Based White European nations like Germany.

>>2635296
>Good question. For starters you don't know 99% of your nation, while you know majority of your tribe.

i doubt that a typical person in one of these massive Gallic tribes knew the majority of his tribesmen.

Nationalism relates to the ethnic group and patriotism relates to the state. Hence why you can have basque, etc nationalists in Spain who are quite anti-patriotic.

>>2635867
>>2635869
you're autistic. never said or claimed nationalism prevented war. It,s simply a governance model and therefore amoral. I am simply stating wars would occur with or without nationalism, and thus talking about "war prevention" is literally a useless criteria to define whether a system is good or otherwise.

File: IMG_0462.png (750KB, 640x1136px) Image search: [Google]

750KB, 640x1136px

>>2634287
I like his black and white view of pride. One cannot be a quality person while also showing pride in their country. Makes sense man

>>2634279
They are nothing alike. Patriotism is loyalty to one's country, nationalism is love of one's nation, not country.

>>2636489
>never said or claimed nationalism prevented war
"It causes as many wars as it prevents them"

you need help

>>2636681
>i cant into turn of phrases
that means it has fuck all to do to war in general, hence it prevents conflicts as much as it causes them. You need a better strawman or a better reading comprehension, or maybe both.

>>2634287
>thinking opinions from virgins are valid

Patriotism is at once a faith and a service... Patriotism needs service as the condition of its authenticity, and it is not succinct to say 'i believe' unless one can also say 'i serve'... Patriotism is measured not by the formula in which we declare it but by the service we render... Patriotism is in large part a memory of heroic dead men and a striving to accomplish some task left unfinished by them

-Patrick Pearse

In Pearses definition, Patriotism is nationalism in action

>>2634338
not at all

>>2634287
I seriously love the butthurt this quote is generating.

It's funny, because muh based redpilled about women schopie said it.

>>2636710
learn how to communicate

>>2634295
Pro-tip: people aren't just driven by instinct. Beings that are driven by nothing but instinct are called 'animals'.