Give me a run down on Chinese history

may as well ask for a rundown on human history

>>2633378
Peasant rebellions, Emperors, Millions of deaths, Mongols, Communism, shitty environment

Millions die everytime a merchant gets ripped off or a student flunks an exam.

>>2633378
>China refuses to sell Europeans products at reasonable prices
>get conquered by said Europeans
>get butthurt about being conquered
>become communist
>kill half their population
>pollute the world

Pretty much sums it up.

>>2633378
So much dying

>>2633405
>Pretty much sums it up.
no it doesn't

They seem to swing between strong, centralized empires and completely wasted shitholes. We're in the latter right now.

>>2633405
>reasonable prices
Didn't they want to trade in tea instead of silver?

Then they dump opium in the market and extract silver that way. Then the wars happened.

>>2633419
*former, I mean. The CCP sure as fuck isn't weak, at least not at the moment.

>>2633405
>Chinese history began with Chinese contact with Europe

>>2633419
>strong, centralized empires
Even the "strong" empires of China weren't that centralized. The Qin were probably the most centralized and they couldn't keep their shit together either.

>>2633378
An ever-expanding blob of interconnected rural areas initially growing out of the Yellow and Yangtze River basins, ever larger states conquering their neighbors, growing bloated and collapsing horribly, and getting replaced by a newer, more grander dynasties, swinging from periods of centralization where the economy was dominated by powerful bureaucrats like generals and scholars, and periods of decentralization where the economy was dominated by competing warlords.

>>2633378
basically if the Roman empire never fell

it just stays there and becomes a nuisance to all involved

Eat dogs
Mongols
Manchus
Eat more dogs
Communism
Keep eating dogs

There you have it.

>>2633378
ching chong
obey emporer
respect famary
live good life

>>2633964
>live good life

This seems to be all Chinese people ever want. They are perhaps the least ambitious folk on the face of the Earth.

>>2633977
>be one of the largest territories in the world
>rule various areas with an iron fist
>chinatowns all over the world
>least ambitious

and Americans and Romans were the most humble

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China starts as a civilization very early, a couple of milleniums before common era(there is no clear date). The Chinese civilization starts in north-central modern China. Xia dynasty was the first Han dynasty, it only spanned a very small fraction of what is China today, maybe less than a 10% of it.

Chinese during ancient times considered everyone around them barbarians. There were many other ethnic groups in modern China, apart from the Han Chinese. A lot of them are very obscure since they were conquered very early by the Han Chinese, so there is not a lot of information about them.

During the Warring States period, the small Han states that existed fought each other until a dynasty finally emerged victorious and conquered them, unifying the Han Chinese. It was the Qin dynasty in the 3th century BC. From the Qin dynasty onwards we can really speak about a 'Chinese Empire' because before that, they were really a bunch of petty kingdoms.

In south eastern China you had several other ethnic groups distinct from Han Chinese, who spoke different languages. For example Zhuang and Hui. They had their own kingdoms, but they were eventually conquered by the Han dynasties and incorporated in the Empire.


Chinese Empire didn't remain unified during all its history though. There are several periods during which it balkanized and was governed by several smaller dynasties. For example the Three Kingdoms era in 3th century CE, or the Northern and Southern dynasty period.

In 1209 China was invaded by the Mongols. At the time it was divided in the Jin dynasty in the north, the Song in the south, and West Xia in the West. Mongols conquered all of China, and created a new dynasty of ethnic Mongols that governed an unified China again(Yuan dynasty)

The ethnic Chinese rebelled against the Mongol upper class and deposed them in the 14th century, creating the Ming dynasty, which would be the last Han dynasty.

Continues.

>>2634251
Ming dynasty is famous because they also rebuilt the old Great Wall, so they would not get invaded by the Mongols anymore.

Anyways, they were invaded by Manchus(who lived in modern north eastern China and the area of Vladivostok in modern Russia). The Manchus defeated the Ming in 17th century and created a new dynasty, the Qing dynasty.

The Qing dynasty settled in Beijing, which became the capital of China(Beijing literally means Northern Capital). The other important historical capital of China had been Nanjing(literally Southern Capital).

Qing dynasty expanded a lot westwards, conquering modern Western China(Xinjiang and Outter Mongolia). The area was inhabited by Central Asian peoples, some of them were Muslim. The Qing even genocided a great amount of them.

Qing dynasty followed Ming policies of isolationism. They didn't want to have contact with Western powers, and instead focused on having a lot of tributary states, such as Joseon Korea, Tibet, Dai Viet, etc.

Because of this, China started to lag behind technologically. Also the Qing dynasty, following Manchu military traditions, gave great importance to cavalry. This love of cavalry was detrmental for gun research, so Qing used very primitive guns even until the 19th century.

In 19th century they had a series of wars with Western powers, particularly UK and were forced to give land for the creation of Western trade posts. Examples of this are Hong Kong and Macao, although Russia and Germany also had their own treaty ports.

Other important events in the 19th century were the massive Taiping rebellion, which destabilized the Qing government, and the Boxer rebellions against Boxer influences early 20th century.

By the second decade of the 20th century the Qing dynasty was overthrown, and a military dictatorship(Beiyang) was established. It didn't last long though, since the Generals had so much power that they eventually created their own states(Called cliques) and fought against each other

>>2634303
During the Warlord Era one side emerged victorious in 1928. General Chaing Kai Shek proclamed himself president of the Republic of China, which would be governed by the Kuomintang.

Communists raised against the government of the Kuomintang, and a civil war started again. It was interrupted by the Japanese invasion of China. Both the Communists and the KMT fought together against the Japanese. When they were finally defeated by the Allies, the Civil War resumed.

In 1949, finally the Communists emerged victorious under the command of Mao Zedong. The governement of Kai Shek fled to the island of Formosa(Taiwan), and continental China become under Communist rule. Which still is up to this day.

2 of China's greatest dynasties (Han & Ming) were founded by peasants. I always found that to be awesome.

>>2634340
I wonder why ancient China peasants can be emperors whereas in the rest of the world they have to at least be the equivalent of middle class?

was there any other peasants in history that founded a state/dynasty? (besides Hideyoshi though even he was barred due to his peasant background)

To make big people, kill small people. To make small people, stop feeding them.

>>2633378
>get conquered by Mongolia
makes mongolia a part of the country
>get conquered by manchus
completely assimilates the manchus make manchuria a part of the country
>gets colonized by great britain
begins to colonize canada and australia.
The Eternal Han never stops

>>2634353
>I wonder why ancient China peasants can be emperors whereas in the rest of the world they have to at least be the equivalent of middle class?
Mandate of Heaven; the Chinese version of divine right of kings. Any peasant who was successful in reaching his way to the top and becoming emperor must've been blessed by heaven, thus it was accepted. It helps that both peasants-turned-emperors laid the foundations for their successors to follow in administration.

>was there any other peasants in history that founded a state/dynasty? (besides Hideyoshi though even he was barred due to his peasant background)
Well technically, you could argue way back in history that every founder of a state or dynasty was a peasant. Especially in ancient times and the early Middle Ages.

I know of only 2 medieval peasants off the top of my head: Basil I of the Macedonian dynasty. He was a peasant that became Byzantine Emperor. Ivaylo was a farmer-turned-rebel who won battles against the Mongols and became Bulgarian Emperor. I know there was a Roman Emperor or 2 that had humble origins but can't remember them.

>>2634376
I would read a novel that told the stories of an anthropomorphized Eternal Han and Eternal Anglo, over the millennia.

In the final third of the book they finally meet and the showdown begins.

oh jesus christ I just accidentally described a fan spinoff of Hetalia, god fucking dammit

>>2634376
fuckers are basically the Borg

>>2634426
The Persians and their civilization do the same thing. The Arabs and the later Turkic and Mongolic peoples absorbed Persian elements whole-heartedly.

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>>2634423

>>2634437
yeah but Persia usually never resurfaces until their conquerors are gone.

China's conquerors take over their shit and then becomes China anyway

>>2634406
>Roman emperors with humble origins
Vespasian was from a plebian family, so he works. Not sure who else would qualify.

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>>2633405
>communist
>china

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>>2633405
They didn't kill anywhere close to half their population. Where did you hear that?

>>2634251
>jumping from Qin to the fucking Mongols

Jesus H Christ

You skipped about 1500 years there

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>>2634340
>2 of China's greatest dynasties (Han & Ming) were founded by peasants. I always found that to be awesome.

Lol they were worse than peasants.

Liu Bang was a wanted fugitive.

Zhu Yuanzhang buried his entire family after a Yuan Period famine killed most of his villagem8s and subsequently became a hobo.

>>2634335
How is it that the Roman Empire did not have the capacity of the Chinese Empire to get to recover from balkanization or foreign invasion?

>>2634851
They tried.

Way too many threats I suppose. By the time JUSTinian was reconquering italy, he was juggling the Persians, Eastern Nomadic Barbarian hordes, internal issues, etc.

>>2634758
Well nothing really earthshattering happened in between besides the Three Kingdoms and the Northern and Southern Dynasties.

>>2633378
恭喜你,你可以使用谷歌翻譯

>>2633431
Qin died from trying to be edgy. Made being late punishable by death, then gave impossible orders to the heads of armies.

>>2633958
I only eat the finest 香肉 with my qt 4/10 girlfriend my god man

>>2634340
Only han nationalists think the Ming were great. In reality they were retrograde fanatics who contributed to converse stagnation during the after of discovery. All true sinophiles know the Song were the og dynasty.

>>2633431
Qin couldn't keep their shit together because Legalism is unironically the most Lawful Evil philosophy ever to be used to attempt to govern a state.

>>2633431
centralized by ancient/medieval standards

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>Heaven brings forth innumerable things to nurture man.
>Man has nothing good with which to recompense Heaven.
>Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill.

>>2634851
1. Geography. The Roman Empire was built one mountainous peninsulas surrounding a large sea. It was very hard to reconquer. Meanwhile the core chinese lands were situated in the north china plains and sichuan basin. This allowed any invading force to quickly consolidate it's chinese holdings.


2. Foreign Invasion. The Romans had multiple invaders from multiple fronts. Arabs, Germans, Slavs, and Persians. They could take chunks of the empire and defend them pretty easily. China only had nomadic invaders from the steppes (Mongols, Manchus, Jurchens, and the Wu Hu). However when they did invade and conquer China, they would normally just assimilate to Han culture.

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>>2635576
forgot pic

>>2635576
>Romans had multiple invaders from multiple fronts.
Additionally the barbarians that Rome dealt with were agrarian communities settling on Roman lands to farm, whereas the barbarians the Chinese dealt with were nomadic horsefuckers who didn't really take land so much as they stole shit and rode off.

>>2635581
The southern and southeastern parts look a lot more defensible, also that big population cluster right in the middle of the mountains.

>>2635382
jokes on you I use pleco

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>>2635615
>The southern and southeastern parts look a lot more defensible

yes, this is how the Song held out against the Northern Jin until the Mongols cut through both of them. Luckily China never had any noteworthy invaders come from the south. This is why most Chinese capitals were situated along the northern perimeter of the North China Plain. The remoteness of the south also contributed to the diverse chinese langauges found there.

>that big population cluster right in the middle of the mountains.

That's sichuan, it's a lot less defensible when you realize it's a basin and once an invading force enters the valley, it's pretty much game over. They also had their unique language until Zhang Xianzhong decided to revolt and depopulate the region. The Qing then repopulated it with Mandarin speaking chinese from northern provinces.

>>2634901
From a US perspective I guess

>>2635569
JRPG shit

>>2634901
>Well nothing really earthshattering happened in between besides some of the most defining moments of Chinese history.

>>2635557
Still no. Whoever was emperor had de facto control over the provinces, but very rarely was actual control had. Often control was limited to a handful of provinces and the other provinces were only nominally under imperial control.

>>2635557
Have you ever heard the saying "the mountains are high and the emperor is far"?

>>2635581
>Everywhere is mountains besides a bit of China and a bit of India
Well fuck no wonder those were the only two powers worth anything in the region for thousands of years. Nobody else could walk for more than a couple of days before running into yet another mountain.

>>2633378
China has the longest continuous history of any country in the world—3,500 years of written history. Chinese people, even elementary school students, can read and understand so many poems that were written 2000 years ago. The grammar and the meaning of the words have not changed.

Imagine a culture where people still use phrases making reference to the old capital city from 300 BC. That's China.

For a fun intro to China's interesting past I recommend the film: King of Masks (1996) its popular enough to torrent and its realistic.

>>2633378
Mandate of Heaven has only one fault, and it's a pretty damming one at that.
>Mandate offers religious justification when one ruler and their dynasty are overthrown by another
>basically it suggests the old dynasty has subverted from its original purpose and so God has punished them by placing his favor onto the new dynasty
>this subdues any counter revolution because it goes against God's plan because the general populace believes this new dynasty has divine favor
This is more or less a constant throughout China's imperial history, and remained as such because it was a religious policy bound in law and not one strictly tied to one particular faith, as China has flip flopped between Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism. The fault of the mandate occurs when a revolution fails and the previous dynasty remains/reclaims power, such as what happened with both the Han and Tang Dynasties. It also led to century periods of civil war because no dynasty maintained power for long enough in order to warrant legitimate divine favor.

>>2639051
>as China has flip flopped between Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism. With varying degrees of Legalism of course. We're in a period right now of strong Legalist bent.

>>2638871
Until the commies decide culture is a bad thing that should be destroyed, huh

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>>2639051
>remained as such because it was a religious policy bound in law
Mandate of Heaven is less of a law and more of a folk belief. A very powerful one. It is also not quite religious as various religions converged in the idea that Heaven/God/Allah/Whatever can withdraw favor from the ruler.

It's not written in any Chinese law books that "it's ok to rebel if the government sucks coz you know, heaven has withdrawn its favor from that dynasty."

>>2639099
Legalism (and if I'm honest, Confucianism) were more a less a constant even if the main religion at the time was something else. Sort of how Christian democracy remains the basis for most European law even in very secular countries like Sweden and Norway.

>>2639124
>Le culture can be destroyed overnight.
Yes, I will tell this to idiots who believe in Tiger Penis Magic, Feng Shui, and the whole of Chinesedom celebrating the Chink New Year as opposed to the Gregorian one.

>>2639152
>It's not written in any Chinese law books that "it's ok to rebel if the government sucks coz you know, heaven has withdrawn its favor from that dynasty."
I know it was more folk faith driven than anything that was written down, and I well aware of how religious native convergence/Pentecostalism works.

I just didn't know how to word it properly, so I just said it was the divine right of a singular god. I admit when it comes to Chinese folk religions, I'm not very well read. I only know of Sun Wukong and even then, he is more of a literacy character more than a worshiped god.

>>2633378
*Autistic screeching*
Theres your rundown.

>Rothschilds bow to Qin Shi Huang
>In contact with mongols
>Possess psychic-like abilities
>control with an iron but fair fist
>own castles & banks in all of Asia
>direct descendant of all the ancient mandate of heaven
>Will bankroll the first cities on Mars (Qinjing will be be the first city)
>own 99% of DNA editing research facilities on Earth
>first designer babies will in all likelihood be Qin babies
>said to have 215+ IQ, such intelligence on Earth has only existed deep in CHINESE monasteries & Area 51
>ancient Han scriptures tell of an Emperor who will descend upon Earth and will bring an era of enlightenment and unprecedented technological progress with him
>owns nanobot R&D labs around the world
>you likely have Qindabots inside you right now
>the Qin is in regular communication with Shen and Yin, forwarding the word of the mandate of heaven to the Orthodox church. Who do you think set up the meeting between the pope & the Orthodox high command (First meeting between the two organisations in over 1000 years) and arranged the Orthodox leader’s first trip to Manchuria in history literally a few days later to the Qin bunker in Taiwan land?
>he learned fluent mandarin in under a week
>nation states entrust their mercury reserves with the Emperor. There’s no mercury n Ft. Knox, only Ft. Qin Shi Huang
>the emperor is about 220 decades old, from the space-time reference point of the base human currently accepted by our society
>in reality, he is a timeless beings existing in all points of time and space from the big bang to the end of the universe. We don’t know his ultimate plans yet. We hope he is actually mandate of heaven

>>2633378
An almost autistic obsession with writing things down, keeping records, she bureaucracy that stretches back to 1500BC.

>>2639243
Underrated post

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>>2634794
>and subsequently became a hobo.

There's nothing wrong with being a hobo, I mean Woody Guthrie was a hobo and look what he accomplished

>>2639243
Better version
>Barbarians bow to Celestial Emperor
>In contact with Heaven's Will
>Possess sage-like abilities
>controls All Under Heaven with an iron but fair fist
>owns tributaries and concubines in all of Asia
>direct descendants of the Yellow Emperor
>Will bankroll the first cities on Mars (New Vancouver will be be the first city)
>own 99% of Internet censorship research facilities on Earth
>first designer babies will in all likelihood be male babies
>said to have average 105+ IQ, such intelligence on Earth has only existed deep in East Asia and Canada
>ancient Zhou scriptures tell of an Emperor who will descend upon Earth and will bring an era of Supreme Peace and unprecedented cultural progress with him
>owns culturebot assimilation labs around the world
>you likely have Hanbots inside you right now
>the Dynasty is in regular communication with Shen and Yin, forwarding the word of the mandate of heaven to the Tibetan monasteries. Who do you think set up the selection between Gedhun Choekyi Nyima & Gyaincain Norbu (First meeting between the two candidates in over one reincarnation) and arranged the Panchen Lama's first disappearance to Buddhism in history literally a few days later to a re-education camp in the Middle Kingdom?
>learned fluent guwen in under a week
>tributaries entrust their mercury reserves with the Emperor. There’s no mercury in Ft. Knox, only Ft. Qin Shi Huang
>the empire is about 500 decades old, from the space-time reference point of the base human currently accepted by our society
>in reality, it is a timeless being existing in all points of time and space from the big bang to the end of the universe. We don’t know its ultimate plans yet. We hope there actually is a mandate of heaven.

>>2633405
ahhahahahah

>>2634406
Wasn't justinian in some poor family before he became emperor? Many dynasties in the east started from commoners

>>2634359
"When you get conquered by your enemies, you win"
-Zhou Tien Thu Dhou, founder of the Li Fei dynasty

>>2640880
top kek

>>2640584
Yes. He helped his illiterate uncle become emperor and then inherited the throne. His dad was a farmer or some shit.

>>2633378
A Bronze Age civilization that survived to the modern day thanks to being on the other side of the continent from the Sea People that caused the Bronze Age Collapse over in the Near East. About as civilized as you would expect from a Bronze Age empire.

>>2640880
Is there a joke I'm not understanding?

>>2634892
>when a plague caused by a siege half way round the world prevents the second coming of the Roman Empire
wowzers

>>2638871
>The grammar and the meaning of the words have not changed.

i love it when people talk about something they know nothing about.

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>>2643557
Allow me to explain. First I quoted the wrong post, was supposed to quote this one >>2634376
The quote is derived from a Justin Trudeau meme, the name sort of sounds like Chinese. Li Fei also sounds like Leaf, the implication is that the Prime-Minister of Canada had a plan to annex China and become Emperor, by flooding Canada with Chinese, alluding to Chinese history with its neighbours.

>>2635520
What's wrong with Legalism?

Also, what exactly is legalism? I haven't read anything about it, I just have heard it exists. What impact did it have on classical China if any?

>>2633378
Millions of deaths every 200-300 years. It was usually civil wars/rebellions but sometimes famine, invasion (mongols, japs) or genocide (moa ze dong).

>>2644162
Legalism was one of the six classical schools of thought in Chinese philosophy that arose out of the chaos of the collapse of the Zhou Dynasty and the Warring States period.

Legalism holds that human beings are essentially evil because they are essentially selfish. No one, unless forced to, willingly sacrifices for another. Humans should not be expected to behave morally. Rather, a viable sociopolitical system should allow individuals to pursue their selfish interests exclusively in ways that benefit the state. Therefore, a ruler had to create a body of laws and a rigidly prescribed system of rewards and punishments which would direct people's natural inclination of self-interest toward the good of the state.

The morality of the law was of no concern as morals played no part in people's decsion-making process. In Legalism, laws direct one's natural inclinations for the betterment of the state. The person who wants to kill their neighbor is prevented by law but would be allowed to kill others by joining the army. In this way the person's selfish desires are gratified and the state benefits by having a dedicated soldier.

Since it was a given that people would act on their self-interest, and always in the worst way, the penalties for breaking the law were extremely harsh and included heavy fines, conscription in the army, years of hard labor, and death.

LIn short, social harmony cannot be assured through the recognition by the people of virtue and morals, but only through strong state control, absolute obedience to authority, and harsh punishments directing of all human activity toward the goal of increasing the power of the ruler and the state.

>>2644382
>>2644162
Ultimately Legalism sought to bring peace to the war-torn civilization of the Warring States period. The belief was that peace required a strong state and military hegemony, supported by strict standards of behavior, suppression of "parasitic" ideas and activities such as ritual, morality, laziness, partiality, and frivolous music; a rigid militaristic culture.

The ruler's place in the Legalist system was to be the supreme enforcer of the Law. Legalism urges the ruler to reign for the sake of the state, not any notion of "the people". He has no obligation to harm the interests of the state for the sake of the people. There was no room for individual liberty or freedom, individuals only exist in the context of relationships or collective groups. These were to serve the state foremost.

>>2644406
>>2644382
>>2644162
Ultimately, this autistic obsession with totalitarian control, rigid laws with ludicrously harsh punishments, and the treatment of the individual as a cog in the machine of the state with an all-powerful state as the end goal was not sustainable.

Legalism was the philosophy through which the first emperor of the Qin Dynasty, China's first emperor, attempted to rule. In the end he oppressive force of legalism created a dissatisfied and rebellious people, and the Qin Dynasty lasted all of 15 years before it was overthrown and replaced by the Han Dynasty, which sought to govern according to the principles of Confucianism instead.

Confucianism's stance directly opposes Legalism. Under Confucianism, law without morality is a weak basis for society. Confucius taught the importance of four virtues: sincerity, benevolence, filial piety and propriety. If the people are virtuous and act in accordance with the natural order of Heaven, there is no need for stringent laws for society to function. The ruler is required to be virtuous so as to lead by example.

In practice, Chinese politics throughout the centuries have run on a spectrum between Confucianism and Legalism, unlike the West which runs from left to right.

>>2644162
As a TL;Dr, Ross Terrill writes that

>Chinese Legalism is as Western as Thomas Hobbes, as modern as Hu Jintao. It speaks the universal and timeless language of law and order. The past does not matter, state power is to be maximized, politics has nothing to do with morality, intellectual endeavour is suspect, violence is indispensable, and little is to be expected rom the rank and file except and appreciation of force.

He calls "Legalism" the "iron scaffolding of the Chinese Empire", but emphasizes the marriage between Legalism and Confucianism.

In the modern day, China is currently leaning strongly Legalist. But for thousands of years the state has been governed by a mixture of Confucianism and Legalism to varying degrees.

>>2644478
Even Han "Confucianism" was just Legalism lite dressed up as Confucianism because Qin Shi Huangdi had given Legalism a bad name.

>>2644162
>humans are corrupt greedy self interested animals, families enable this corrupt behavior
>therefore we must develop a rigid societal order and strict social code that punishes any law breakers severely enforced by a supreme ruler
>we must also abolish the family and draft as many people into the army and massive public works projects as possible
>if they don't want to fight or don't want to work we kill them
>if they show up late to work we kill them
>if they don't like the law we kill them
>glory to the empire which will unite all under heaven

That's legalism.

WELCOME TO THE RICE FIELDS MOTHERFUCKER

>>2644406
Ey, glad to see some of my ideas around.

OFFICIAL DYNASTIES RANKING

1. Tang China
2. Southern Song Dynasty
3. Early Han China
4. Ming China
5. Modern China
6. Qin Dynasty
7. Warring States China
8. Song Dynasty
9. Three Kingdoms China
10. Sui China
11. Jin Dynasty
12. Zhou Dynasty
13. Early Qing China
14. Yuan Dynasty
15. Northern and Southern Dynasties China
16. Republican China
17. Late Han China
..
99. Maoist China
....
999999. Late Qing China

>>2644770
Thanks for being easy to copy and paste from after I got tired of writing

>>2644770
If anyone wants, I can post an essay about Legalism I did for a class.

>>2644797
Seems good, though personally I would place number 3 above number 2.

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>>2644800
No problem senpai

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>>2644809
The invention of Paper Money, Printing Press, Gunpowder, Compass and advanced Metallurgy all speak for the Song.

And in contrast to the main Song, the Southern Song had actually a competent army and a standing navy. They held out against the mongol onslaught for decades when everyone else just collapsed.
So this all made them a pretty clear Nr. 2

>>2634406
>I know there was a Roman Emperor or 2 that had humble origins

phocas?

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>>2644803
The Zhou Dynasty, a hallmark of the development of Chinese civilization, can be divided into two periods, the Western Zhou (1046-771 BC) and the Eastern Zhou (771-221 BC). Of the Eastern Zhou, it can be further divided into the Spring and Autumn Period (770-464 BC) and the Warring States Period (464 BC-221 BC). During the Western Zhou, the Zhou kings managed to establish their rule over China. After this initial age of relative stability, the kings of Zhou degenerated and became “wraith-like” in authority. The aristocratic, feudal political system of Zhou decayed and produced increasingly independent states. Starting from the lord of Chu, there arose rulers of the vassal states that gradually usurped power and started called themselves kings in defiance of the Zhou. With this weakening of Zhou authority, there came first political disintegration during the Spring and Autumn period and then massive wars of conquest between feuding states afterwards.
One school of thought arose amongst many others emerged during this chaotic era. This school, Legalism (Fajia), was first espoused by Guanzi or Guan Zhong, a dignitary from Qi, who lived in the 7th century BC . His emphasis on law and order influenced Shang Yang, a minister of Qin, to develop a philosophy which advocates for a strong ruler, developing agriculture and mastering warfare, discarding Confucian virtues, and enforcing a strict system of rewards and punishments. Another prominent Legalist thinker was Han Fei, who advocated for the ruler to have an aura of authority the people can internalize and wipe out the “Five Vermins” or parasites of the state. Most importantly for the topic of this paper, Shen Pu-hai added on previous thinkers by theorizing how a ruler can implement this thought through bureaucracy and ensure the loyalty and competence of the officials.

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>>2644920
Although Legalism was utilized with varying degrees by all Chinese states, the state of Qin was the foremost exemplar of this school of thought. This state, which was mostly based in the harsh borderlands west of Hangu Pass, was regarded by the more central states in the east as semi-barbarian. Yet, through its thorough implementation of Shen Pu-hai’s idea of bureaucracy and other Legalist ideas, this small state managed to unify all of China under a highly centralized empire. This paper will analyze how, during and after the struggle for hegemony over Chinese civilization during the Warring States Period, the primary means of the Qin’s Legalist rulers in subjugating rivals and attempting to implement lasting peace was through the stern application of imperial law via a meritocratic bureaucracy.

Bureaucracy and bureaucratization were at first organic developments of the changing nature and needs of Chinese states not tied to Legalist thought. In the decline of the house of Zhou, To maintain authority armies and resources and to digest conquests in this age of prolonged, mass-scale warfare, in varying degrees a movement towards the bureaucratization of the state took hold in the Chinese states. This bureaucratization also allowed the kingdoms to train new officials for the increased needs of civil administration and to manage infrastructure, intelligence, and logistics in warfare. As the more powerful states swallowed the weaker ones in the competition their size and diversity increased. With higher quantities and accompanying of resources at the hand of increasingly larger states, the means of centralization to maintain the authority of ever-expanding states were greater than the existing and fading Western Zhou aristocratic culture could provide. In the inability of aristocratic culture to match the needs of the transformed political environment, bureaucracies arose to fill in the vacuum.

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>>2644925
Legalism, through Shen Pu-hai and Han Fei, adapted this trend of bureaucratization and refined it into an explicit theory of bureaucracy. Unlike schools of thought like Taoism, which scorned government interference and the trend of centralized states, Legalist thinkers thought it could supplement the program they wanted to carry out. For Shen Pu-hai and Han Feizi, bureaucracy could be tweaked to the ends of Legalism. Along with managing the increased amount of resources and manpower resulting from centralization of authority, it was a means of establishing institutional and political mechanisms that could control officials.

Through these mechanisms, the sage ruler, in the Legalist sense, could transcend his personal fallibilities and interpersonal relationships and maintain a strong position. In the promotion of a strong ruler, bureaucracy in Legalist thought was also tweaked to prevent functionaries from rising against the ruler through isolating mechanisms and spying. With these mechanisms in place, the ruler could preside over a system in which officials were appointed into bureaucracy based on merit rather than birth and could carry out his will through the strict laws in a meritocratic manner. As an explicit theory in Legalism, bureaucracy also was consciously utilize to shatter the remnants of the old aristocratic culture that could hold back the Legalist vision of meritocracy. To summarize this, the bureaucracy was of primary importance to the Qin because of its ability deal with the increase of manpower and resources like those in the other states while also refined by theory into a mechanical, “objective” system wholly subservient to a ruler’s authority.

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>>2644970
The importance of bureaucracy to the Qin state of striving toward the ultimate goal of supreme, imperial hegemony is exemplified by its heavy use in warfare. Ever since the collapse of the state of Jin into three (Zhao, Wei, Han) and the decision of the Qin to pursue an expansionist direction under the For all Warring States kingdoms, the decline of Zhou power and the resulting political fragmentation lead to the increase of warfare. The inauguration of cheap iron lead to the “democratization” of warfare with huge armies of infantry and cavalry that was previously monopolized by bronze-wielding aristocrats on chariots. As warfare needed management of the hundreds of thousands of soldiers the Qin had to take on the other states, the bureaucracy had to be utilized and expanded accordingly. This bureaucratization of the military, which was under a Legalist framework, allowed the Qin had become sufficiently powerful that it could defend itself successfully against a general alliance of the other states and eventually overpower all of them through overwhelming application of talented generals, discipline, and numbers.

Bureaucracy’s primary importance in fulfilling the Qin’s pursuit of peace under heaven was also shown by the cornucopia of public projects. Without bureaucratization, the vast roadways that promoted travel and enforcement of order would not have been possible. The Great Wall could not have been completed without the Qin’s mustering and supplying the vast amounts of manpower and supplies needed to construct it. These projects, although sometimes influenced by the megalomania of the ruler, did demonstrate an striving towards political stability and peace in the short time of Qin Shi Huang’s rule over China and the vital importance of the bureaucracy.

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>>2644975
As for the merits of this emphasis on the bureaucracy, one also can compare the Legalist framework of the Qin’s bureaucracy to its shown merits in history. The decline of Zhou and the partition of the state of Jin showed, a strong monarch was needed to prevent powerful factions from tearing apart the state. At least in the step of having a centralized empire in the first place, history has vindicated Qin. The meritocratic culture of Qin helped attract talents and ensure that the Qin military and administration outmatched larger but more corrupt states. Qin’s ability to heed Legalist teachings about the importance of a strong bureaucracy and maintain a vigilant surveillance of officials prevented it from being seriously affected by attempts by agents of enemy states to bribe, sabotage, and delude various officials.

However, the massive strengthening of central authority provided by the adaption of Legalist ideas failed to adequately secure the rule of the Qin Dynasty and their flaws ultimately led to the Qin's demise. The main reason why the Qin dynasty failed to last despite the systematic, calculated development of political management was because of Qin’s excessive emphasis on punishment and direct coercion. Although these did allow the government to fundamentally change and deepen the control it had over the vast lands and peoples of the empire, it also led to harmful inflexibility. The Qin’s creation of a massive system of highways, new irrigation and transportation canals, the first iteration of the Great Wall, the First Emperor’s grandiose Mausoleum, enforced standardization, and massive armies to campaign against non-Chinese peoples in the north and south further drained the vitality of the Qin state. For such demands, rewards were too sparse and the punishments too abundant. The promised peace and stability did not reach many.

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>>2644981
Secondly, despite the efforts of various thinkers, the Legalist system was still too dependent on the ability of the emperor. The aura of authority faded when the First Emperor died and was replaced by his incompetent successors. Therefore the bureaucracy no longer had a ruler that could strong-arm imperial authority across the empire through sheer ability. The dream of Han Feizi of a bureaucracy that could function without dependence on this aura collapsed anyways when the people no longer heeded a bureaucracy without a powerful emperor.

Oppressed by the voracious demands of the overly strict and coercive imperial government that represented to many a continuation of the hardships of the Warring States Period and tantalized by the weakness of the successors of the First Emperor, the common people tended towards resistance at the first opportunity (e.g. the Dazexiang Uprising). Unlike the more Confucian dynasties afterwards, the Legalist government of Qin, due to Legalism contempt of virtue, was unable recognize the potential power of moral persuasion and social relationships in calming the masses and salvaging their precarious situation. The ruling class was unable to manage with these massive foreign and internal pressures in a nuanced manner and therefore collapsed after a massive wave of rebellions along with the whole edifice of the Qin government.

END

>>2644833
I don't think so familia.
Muh clay>>>>>>>>>Military>>Technology>Culture

>>2634353
One of the Roman King's was literally a slave.

Shitloads of Kings and Emperors came from slave to low class.

>>2644985
>>2644981
>>2644975
>>2644970
>>2644925
>>2644920
Quality posts anon. Cheers.

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>>2644920
>>2644925
>>2644970
>>2644975
>>2644981
>>2644985
Fang, Hui, Gary M. Feinman, and Linda M. Nicholas. "Imperial Expansion, Public Investment, and the Long Path of History: China’s Initial Political Unification and Its Aftermath." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 112.30 (2015): 9225.

Kiser, Edgar, and Yong Cai. "War and Bureaucratization in Qin China: Exploring an Anomalous Case." American Sociological Review 68.4 (2003): 515-516.

Kulmar, Tarmo. "On the Nature of the Governing System of the Qin Empire in Ancient China." Folklore: Electronic Journal of Folklore FEJF 59 (2014): 166.

Moody, Peter R. "Han Fei In His Context: Legalism On The Eve Of The Qin Conquest." Journal of Chinese Philosophy 38.1 (2011): 16.

Sanft, Charles. Communication and Cooperation in Early Imperial China: Publicizing the Qin Dynasty, 105-107.

Schwartz, Benjamin I. The World of Thought in Ancient China. Cambridge, MA: Belknap of Harvard UP(1985): 40.

Theodore, De Bary William, Richard John Lufrano, Wing-tsit Chan, and John H. Berthrong. Sources of Chinese Tradition. from Earliest times to 1600. New York: Columbia UP (1999): 193.

>>2639925
>New Vancouver
My sides

They used to be admired by japan and korea, then the qing came, and that was pretty much seen as the fall of rome to them. The japanese thought that Chinese civilization was dead and had been lost to the Yi. They saw themselves as the true successors to the Huaxei. This idea existed for very long and was even brought up in the first sino japanese war with japan saying it was a 'punishment' to the manchu coirt for ruining china not an attack on the chinese people.

Ironically though much of the backwardness of the qing was because they behaved MORE chinese than the chinese. They feared that them modernizing and acting out of tradition would upset the populace and cause them to see the qing as foreign subjugators again.

>>2634739
t. mao

>>2644970
So Legalism is Thomas Jefferson's nightmare.

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The good guys lost when Dr. Sun died, and Zhang Xueliang was a traitor

>>2645648
china's still going strong anon, there's still hope

>>2644382
>>2644406
>>2644510
>>2644652
>>2644970
>>2644975
The more I read about China's history the more I'm convinced they are basically space aliens as far as Western civilization is concerned.

>>2633378
>Unite
>Collapse
>Unite
>Collapse
>Unite
>Collapse
And so on.

>>2644970
By the way, this girl is my favorite.

>>2646780
Pretty much, there is a really good saying for that:分久必合,合久必分
"When there is long division, there must be unification. When there is long unity, there must be division."

>>2647308
Though I admit this quote is quite overused. Does any anon know another saying about the chink unity-division meme?

>>2633405
>skipping the first 3000 years of Chinese history when talking about Chinese history

>>2644162
basically laws are tools for the ruler/ruling class to get shit done with rather than that which all is subject to.

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>>2647572
Not really, the ruler is suppose to be only the supreme arbiter/priest of Law in a Legalist society. If he makes a law which he then violates, he would be also subject to punishment. The Legalists did not want the law to be manipulated by cabals of powerful officials who's influence would corrupt the optimized hierarchical pyramid (with the ruler on top) at the expense of society/government as a whole. The punishments would apply equally to everyone, not just the commoners. For example, a well-known Legalist minister of Qin, Shang Yang, famously got executed because of a law he himself helped create.

Instead of being allowed to manipulate the law itself for his own sake, the ruler would have to establish control mechanisms to maintain his position (subterfuge, monopoly of favors, etc). Though on how the ruler would set this system up, I frankly don't quite know.

>>2647572
>>2648056
Though a teacher is above a student, even a teacher is subject to the same fundamental mechanisms that govern social relationships as his students. In the Legalist thinking, going against this fact weakens the efficiency of the process.

>>2633378
read the 4 classics plebs

>>2648056
>Instead of being allowed to manipulate the law itself for his own sake, the ruler would have to establish control mechanisms to maintain his position (subterfuge, monopoly of favors, etc). Though on how the ruler would set this system up, I frankly don't quite know.
Something like what the earlier Roman emperors did when "emperor" wasn't a formal office, maybe?

>>2648122
I didn't study much about Roman government. Can you describe the "tools" of early Roman emperors?

>>2648056
>Shang Yang

I remember this guy from the Frances Fukuyama book.

>>2648152
Not an expert but as I understand it, the emperor up until Diocletian wasn't a formal constitutional office, or even called the "emperor" but the result of a hodgepodge of powers and titles accumulated by Augustus and thereafter passed on to heirs or granted by the Senate that when put together constituted imperial authority. The emperors were at least nominally working within the legal and constitutional framework of the Republic's institutions.

Taking Augustus for example, through the settlements with the Senate he was given the traditional office of tribune that made him the guardian of the welfare of the people and allowed him to propose or veto laws; separately he was given the right to call Senate meetings, and to be the first speaker in any Senate meeting; he was given control over Rome's grain supplies; he also had procobsular authority over the provinces which gave him control of the legions in the provinces; he was also fabulously wealthy personally. Nowhere in his titles was there anything about being a king or emperor, and he insisted that he was merely the "princeps" or first citizen, but with all his powers combined he was able to be emperor within the framework of the law.

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>>2648266
Then I don't think so. Perhaps I shouldn't have translated the ruler's tools as "mechanisms". From the very beginning of China, the ruler was always explicitly acknowledged as a kind of heavenly autocrat: king, emperor, whatever. In Legalism, though the ruler is still subject to the law, he has ultimate authority to decide how the rule of law was to be imposed on society. As Law is the tool for the government to be imposed on society, so would the ruler's tools (spying, intimidation, etc) control the government from acting up against him. However, to prevent the Law itself from being influenced by personal considerations and to demonstrate the cold authority of impartial law, changing the principles behind the Law is out of bounds to the ruler or anyone.

Chinese rulers had no need to even attempt an amassing of informal powers to augment their legitimacy. They always had supreme formal power. The Chinese didn't even conceive of a constitutional system holding rulers back. In fact, to the Confucians, a ruler who would demean the office by blurring boundary between ruler and subject is violating ritual and someone not fit to be a proper ruler.

>>2648253
What book are you referring to?

>>2633422
No. They wanted to buy tea for literally anything but silver.

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>>2650053

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>>2634353
>I wonder why ancient China peasants can be emperors whereas in the rest of the world they have to at least be the equivalent of middle class?
Peasants were middle class in china.

>>2645365
according to estimates Mao killed 100 million, that's not even close to half

>>2634794
>Liu Bang was a wanted fugitive.
Liu Bang was an officer who got fucked over by the Qin

>>2650206
Well, his lateness ensured that the distinction became meaningless. Even him being an officer was because of his natural charisma, not his lowly family background.

>>2650292
He wasn't late, he was escorting prisoners and some of them escaped because he had too few guards.

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>>2633405
>become communist
>kill half their population

Was American indocrination and brainwashing always this strong?

>>2650480
Killing large parts of the population is an age of Chinese tradition. Nothing to do with communism.

>>2650491
Why isn't there a better way to control the Chinese population? Even now there are a billion of those cunts in mainland China alone.

>>2650544
Birth rate will fall as living standards improve.

>>2651260
China already has ludicrously low birthrates though, in fact it's lower than most developed nations.

>>2650294
I remember now, my bad

>>2634851
While the West certainly has a lot of contributions (mainly in science) their social organization has, historically speaking, been pretty shit.

Compare the excessive Western individualism (likely the fault of Abrahamic religions) to China's Confucianism and you'll understand why every social institution in the West has eventually split into a million pieces or just gone up in flames.

>>2651460
I agree, the best contributions of the West are Western musical melodies and science/technology. A lot of Western philosophy on society, especially more modern ones, is trash-tier with the whole idolization of sophistry, contrarianism, and muh inviolable individual nature.

>>2652517
Not to mention air-headed universalism.

>>2634794
Liu Bang wasn't that much Qin dynasty's peasant.

All seven warring states were still intact the time he was born.

Heck, he's only two year younger than Qin Shi Huang and one generation older than Xiang Yv

>hey i conquered chi--
>civil war
repeat for thousands of years until Qing
>fuck yuropoors
>oh shit opium
>oh shit steamboats
>oh shit my territory
>oh shit the nips
>oh shit communism
>haha communism is g-great! pray to the great red book every day!!
>okay now it's our time to shine
>oh shit severe corruption

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>>2650480
Only in Dumbfuckistan, where public schools are underfunded, overcrowded shitholes that are getting shut down to pay for some rich prick's tax cut, who sends his kid to a ritzy private school and funds a massive propaganda campaign to convince all the rubes in camouflage that if he was given another tax break then he could give them all jobs so amazing that they too could send their kids to ritzy private schools.

The state I live in has some of the finest and highest preforming educational institutions in the world, public and private, and I've never had that problem of people mistaking me for some buck-toothed hoohaw who gets his most of his information from grifters on AM talk radio.

Was China ever a great military power or was most of their influence cultural?

>>2655337
Both, though the emphasis of one or the other often fluctuated between dynasties. There's a reason China is called the Rome of the East.

>>2655337
Qin armies numbered in the hundreds of thousands.

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>>2655337
China also had a huge influence militarily considering that the Tibetans, Koreans and, Vietnamese, are kitted in Chinese gear and following Chinese tactics.

Yamato Japan, initially, tried to follow the Chinese military model. It failed tremendously partly because it was super fucking expensive and partly because there were very few people willing to join the army. Leading to the monopolization of military force by a warrior caste that arose during the Northern Invasions versus the Emishi.

The Qin, Han, T'ang, and Ming dynasties are nothing to fuck with militarily speaking. The Song were militarily weak, but their military inventions such as gunpowder, new sword types, and armor forms were highly influential in East Asia and Eastern Central Asia. Classical Chinese armor after all (pictured) came from the Song Period, and was worn from Korea to Vietnam, and later on the Mongols adopted it. The famous painting of Subutai (the one where he's posed weirdly) has him wearing this kind of armor.

>>2633378
>there was a bunch of random tribes
>look, now there's an empire
>oh look it fell apart, no empire anymore
>oh okay now it's back together again
>then the empire fell apart again
>then it was unified
>then it fell apart
>then it was unified
>then it fell apart
>then it was unified
>then it fell apart
>then it was unified
>then it fell apart
>woops, here come the mongols
>then it was unified
>then it fell apart
>woops, there go the mongols
>then it was unified
>woops, here come the manchu
>then it fell apart
>then it was unified
>woops, here come the europeans
>dude, opium, lmao
>then Jesus Christ was reincarnated and set up his own kingdom
>woops there went the kingdom of god
>then the empire fell apart
>woops, here comes the japanese
>woops, there go the japanese
>then it was unified (except for that one island)

I wonder what will happen next, in this riveting and varied history?

>The empire, long divided, must unite; the empire, long united, must divide.

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>>2633378
chaos, anarchy, non-stop war ->brutal merciless tyrannical empire -> prosperity, golden age, technology -> chaos, anarchy, non-stop war ->brutal merciless tyrannical empire -> prosperity, golden age -> mongols -> isolation -> manchus(mongol like barbarins from the north), become a bitch of western great powers, rebellions, famines -> communism, more tyranny, famines and death -> communist-capitalist mix, wealth, economic power, unprecedented pollution, shitty cheap products, poison plastic and rubber, all in all a miserable shithole, but at least billions are not dying of starvation or war this time

i think i pretty much covered everything

>>2655380
>>2655714
>>2655740
Fascinating, thanks. I just wondered because I'd never heard of China ever actually defeating another country in war, besides the Korean War zergrush, but forgot to take into account that "China" itself is the result of military conquest.

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>>2655866
The best foreign military campaign any Chinese dynasty ever pulled off remains the Han-Xiongnu Wars.

You have Chinese forces wrecking a nomadic empire in their own home turf with battles reaching as far as Lake Baikal in what is today, Eastern Russia. Culminating with the collapse of the Xiongnu confederacy and the halt of Eastwards Nomadic Migration.

Did you guys know that under Chinese law, every historical video game featuring China MUST mention that the Chinese invented gunpowder, paper and the printing press?
I learned this by docking around with the files of Civ V. If you open up China's encyclopedia entry, it has the relevant law in brackets after the paragraph detailing Chinese inventions.

>>2655873
The Tang made the superior anti-Steppe campaigns, while at the same time fucking around in Korea.

The only reason why the Turks overrun Central Asia, Persia and Anatolia was because they were kicked out by the Tang.
And given how they established permanent armies there and opened the Silk Road, they also had more lasting cultural, economic and military effects.

Still of course the Han campaigns were pretty awesome as well

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>>2656083
Also, its interesting how both were done under very similiar historic circumstances:

A multi-centuries period of partition and civil war (Warring States/Northern and Southern Dynasties) is ended by a brutal warrior dynasty (Qin/Sui), which was shortly after overthrown by a great dynasty (Han, Tang) which directed all the agression outside to destroy the dominant Steppe empires of their time (Xiongnu/ Gok Turks)

Makes one wonder if without Genghis Khan uniting the Mongols; the Southern Song would have made a similiar move

>>2647320
It's probably the same quote translated differently, but I heard it as "The country long united must divide, and long divided must unite"

>>2656083
>>2655873
>Chinese fuck up the horse barbarians in the east
>barbarians move west and displace people already there
>displaced people flee further west and displace people already there
>these people then flee west
>this dominos all the way to Rome
>Rome suddenly has to deal with barbarians trying to settle on their lands because the Chinese fucked up a bunch of otherwise unrelated horsefuckers on the other side of the world
Amazing

Hey guys, the bamboo pole merchant down the way docked me way too much for a set of shitty bamboo that were practically shoots anyways, what do I do?

>>2656083
>The only reason why the Turks overrun Central Asia, Persia and Anatolia was because they were kicked out by the Tang.
The Turks were a vulture culture that didn't need any provocation to overrun Central Asia, Persia and Anatolia. It is more likely that in the process of receiving a pasting by the Chinese they adopted some of their superior military practices which they discovered could be used on their neighbors, solid saddle trees and stirrups, innovations in steel and iron production, expansion of trade like the silk road and salt trade.

>>2656284
Not just Rome, but India also.
The fall of Rome, the fall of the Gupta Empire, the fall of the Graeco-Indian Kingdoms, were all caused because some chinese general was a little bit too successfull.

Then again, you can also point to the Mongols and to what happens when the Chinese let their local steppe nomad problems spin too much out of control.

>>2656106
that shit is ridiculously similar to 17th century European ships

Why

Things are a chaotic mess

A brutal warlord is in control and while lots of people are dead there is peace

Everything is comparatively good or even awesome

Life isnt so bad but everything is breaking down

Things are a chaotic mess

Right now we are in a everything is awesome phase in china.

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>>2656284
Nah. The Asian Steppe Nomads that bothered the Roman and Sassanid Empires came much later, during the 300s and 400s AD. This is largely factored in by overpopulation of Central Asia. The event pretty much eliminated the few Iranic confederations remaining in the steppes as Altaic-speaking people burst out of the Steppes in every direction.

Both Rome AND China were victims of this: Romans had the Hunnic invasion and later on the Byzantine experienced invasions by Bulgars, and whatnot. Sima Jin dynasty China experienced a Turkic invasion in the 400s which led to the collapse of Jin China and a period of fragmentation where China was split into warring Turkic-led and Native Chinese led dynasties called "The Nanbeichao Period (Northern and Southern Dynasties)."

>>2656551
>Sima Jin dynasty China experienced a Turkic invasion in the 400s which led to the collapse of Jin China
That's a massive oversimplification of how the proto/para Mongolic Tuoba Xianbei came to establish their rule.

The Tuoba Xianbei were nominal Jin vassals that happened to to expand after the power vacuum left by the collapse of Former Qin.

>where China was split into warring Turkic-led and Native Chinese led dynasties called "The Nanbeichao Period (Northern and Southern Dynasties)."
There's no such thing a an native Chinese dynasty when China i.e. Zhongguo never included anything south of the Huai and the Southern dynasties were initially northern emigres ruling over a massive southern Sinitic speaking population with the Wu and Chu vernaculars being the most popular.

>>2656208
That was my personal translation.

>>2650189
>merchants that low

no wonder they got their ass kicked in the opium wars

>>2656024
fucking kek

>>2656956
Everyone and their mum placed merchants low in the social ladder. Romans did, Greeks did, Arabs did, Japs did, Chinese did.

However they are recognized by everyone I mentioned as vital to the economy and despite the low status, are seen as de facto nice trades to have by the mass of common folk.

>>2633378

thousands of years of WE WUZZing

>>2633378
Nothing important happened except that a few lone thinkers managed to escape the idiocy of their culture long enough to create authentic works of genius... then the European enlightenment happened and spread to China. Now something interesting might happen there.

>>2657344
WTF did everyone have against merchants? They create a larger market for your goods.

>>2659117
Say you buy carts for a set price. You have to make a long trip each time you do so. Then one day you realize you're too busy to make the trip, but you need a cart. The local merchant offers carts but at a higher price.
Even though technically the higher price is for convenience, you feel ripped off. Plus, there are merchants that actively rip you off know this.

>>2657344
>Romans did,
and they fell
>Greeks did
and they fell
>Arabs did
and they fell
>Japs did
and they got nuked
>Chinese did
and they fell over and over again

Brits and Americans finally stop treating their merchants like shit and they ended up taking over the world (Dutch and Italians did too but they had too many shitty neighbors).

>>2659117
see: every rant /pol/ made on the jews

>>2659329
>Brits
then why did they fall?

>>2659117
Because you have to pay money to them. It's not a logical reason it's just butthurt. Like taxes, people fucking hate taxes but everyone knows you need tax.

>>2659329
It's more like everyone in Britain and America became a merchant.

>>2633378

Throw silverware down the stairs and you'll hear all the names of chinese dynasties

>>2659820
What silverware sound produces "Xia", "Zhou" or "Han"?

>>2659830
>"Xia"
Mythical

>"Zhou"
An oversized kingdom, not a true imperial dynasty

>"Han"
Very big silverware

>>2633405
>China refuses to sell Europeans products at reasonable prices
>get conquered by said Europeans

You mean like "Opium"? I thought it's sold by European drug lords, but Chinese refused to buy it anymore, so Europeans get butthurt and started waging wars to show their evil barbaric blood thirsty drug dealer nature once again.

>>2633378
Just remember these names:

First:
Xia, Shang, Zhou, Qin, Han, Jin, Sui, Tang, Song, Yuan, Ming, Qing.(2070BC~1911AD) .

Second:
Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors; Three Kingdoms; Southern and Western Dynasties; Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms; Xiongnu/Huns, Jurchen/Manchu, Cathay/Khitai, Mongols. Republic of China; People's Republic of China.

And now you know the basic.

>>2659898
You can also sing it.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0kXOdm1jaR8

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>>2656551
>Uprising of the Five Barbarians=Turkic invasion + China was split into warring Turkic-led dynasties
>Implying every nomads in China are Turks now

Goy, I wonder who is behind this post...

>>2659830
How do you pronounce the?

Sha
Zow (as in sow) or Show?
Han or Hun

>>2660105
http://vocaroo.com/i/s15Fp4yiDS8d

>>2660139
Sounds like silverware products to me

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>>2633378

Indo Europeans started it, that is all you need to know.

>>2633405
This post pretty much sums up /his/

>>2660741
no, it sums up /pol/

>>2633429

>not just only europe, other neighboring countries as well, and it's called galleon trading,

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>>2663154

>>2644803

please do share

>>2663668
He already did, read the thread.

>glorious han people rule for millenia
>horseniggers from the north chimp out and conquer china
>everything sort of goes back to normal for a while
>horseniggers chimp out yet again
>go demokratik
>die
>go kommunist
>???

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>>2663668
>>2664672

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WE WUZ TANGS N SHIEET

>>2659848
Regardless of whether Xia existed or not, you still have to consider that since the Han dynasty,it was part of official imperial historiography it was the predecessor of subsequent Chinese dynasties.

It's true that the ruler of Zhou was basically a feudal overlord and not a universal ruler of all under heaven. However, for the length of that dynasty, Zhou kings always officially possessed prestigious hegemonic titles like "Son of Heaven". They had the fundamental characteristics of a Chinese dynasty: central authority, family succession, and de jure (and de facto if dynasty has not declined) international hegemony/supremacy. Since the Zhou was seen as a legitimate kind of dynasty and a vital one in the formation of Chinese culture, Confucius is said to have emulated the "Three Dynasties" of Chinese antiquity, of which the Zhou dynasty serves as a very prominent role model.

I don't know about big silverware producing a "HAN" sound. The sound of it in my head is a deep "DING".

>>2664696
The Kuomintang were not democratic. Their vision for China was a one party military dictatorship more or less the same as what the communists had.

>>2633378
Ching chong sjing tjing jong. Wa wa shu we wong.

>>2667678
Not an argument

>>2659860
Chinese of all backgrounds colluded with European merchants in distributing opium, which was becoming very, very popular in China. It was the imperial government that really saw it as a problem, for social, moral, and financial reasons.

>>2665909
Well, they tried to start off (relatively) democratic, holding what was probably the first (relatively) free election in Chinese history. The guy who got elected was then shot, and usurped by Yuan Shikai. Then he fucked up, and everything in China went to shit thereafter, as there were then dozens of major and petty warlords organized under a couple of cliques, along with two governments claiming to be the representative of the Chinese Republic.

The whole one-party military dictatorship was more or less a response to this mess, because it became blatantly clear that only military force was going to reunite the country.

>>2659329
And now the Chinese are basically the stereotypical happy merchants of the East. Great job Nixon.

>>2633378
Read a book.

>>2634303
>The other important historical capital of China had been Nanjing(literally Southern Capital)
>forgetting Xi'an

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>>2633378
>acquire land, slowly convert inhabitants to chinese culture mixed with inhabitants culture
>occasionally disrupted by invasions
>currently returning to converting territories

this is for your own good whitey
t.chinese

>>2664784

should actually be
>WE WUZ WANGS AND SHIT

b/c 王 wang means king

Very informative thread. Thanks to the guys that contributed.

>Reach the apex of your civilization; blow away the rest of the world while doing so
>Explore the world, conclude you're the best and there's nothing worth seeing.
>Stagnate for several centuries as the rest of the world catches up, then surpasses you
>Frantically try to catch up in the modern era.

>>2650491

An Lushan's revolt against the T'ang chinese dynasty has a death count in the WW1 range if I recall right. You go big or go home when it comes to suffering and disaster in India and China. It's like an ant colony vs a pride of lions or a pack of wolves.

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>>2670236

>You're going to convert Canada to China.
>We're going to be neighbors with China

Gimme a chink wife and I'll play along but jesus christ, share land boundaries with the Chinese we have no chance to survive make our time take off every zig. They'll outbreed us in an afternoon.

>>2659898
Southern and *Northern Dynasties.(南北朝)

>>2638871
>Imagine a culture where people still use phrases making reference to the old capital city from 300 BC. That's China.
And the 3 Abrahamic religions in reference to Jerusalem.