Which contemporary populations are closest to Proto-Indo-Europeans?

>>2632268
Sardinians even more than Basque

>>2632275
No he said proto, not pre

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>>2632275
Wrong!

>>2632268
Closest to yamnaya:

Georgians

Closest to Neolithic Anatolians/Balkanians:

Sardinians

Closest to Western hunter gatherers:

Estonians

>>2632281
Oh my bad
>>2632282
Oh yeah Estonians in recent studies were given the highest score

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Sami.

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>>2632268
Finns are the most Aryan.

>An estimate given by Haak et al. 2015 gives us the origin of Finns: 25% early Neolithic farmers (compared to Norwegians with 48% early Neolithic farmers), 10% Siberians (compared to Norwegian 4%), 8% western hunter-gatherers (Norwegian 0%) and 50% Yamnaya (Norwegian 48%).

>>2632284
>Closest to yamnaya:
>Georgians
Bullshit

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Norwegians and Lithuanians.

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WE

>>2632294
Wrong, see >>2632290

File: Haplogroup R distribution.png (37KB, 828x426px) Image search: [Google]

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>>2632268

Ironically, what's left of the Celts (Irish, Scot, Briton/Welsh) and R haplotype Native Americans.

Unironically though, Yamnaya was a crazy ethnic clusterfuck.

File: Admixture.png (183KB, 5307x1956px) Image search: [Google]

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>>2632294
>Spanish and Tuscans have no WHG blood

This chart is retarded

>>2632300

>R haplotype Native Americans.

These don't exist you stupid autistic fuck. They are Irish and Scottish mutts.
Non-European R clades don't exist among Native Americans.

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>>2632307
>stormnigger thinks ANE wuz white

You're even more stupid than that guy.

>>2632284

Yamna did have around 40% of their DNA which was closely related to Georgians but they also had predominantly European HG DNA from the R1b and R1a carrying indigenous tribes of the steppe who mixed with the Georgian women.

In terms of overall genetic similarity Georgians wouldn't be closest to them as they are not descendants but cousins.

>>2632307

YOU ARE FUCKING WRONG

IF YOU HAD DONE MORE THAN TEN MINUTES OF READING ON THE SUBJECT OF THE SOURCE OF BASAL R AND THE RECENCY OF THE R1/R2 SPLIT YOU WOULD FUCKING KNOW BUT YOU DONT

>Non-European R clades don't exist among Native Americans.

LOOK AT THE FUCKING DISTRIBUTION CHART AND GOOGLE R1-M173

>>2632319

You retarded bro?
I didn't say anything "stormnigger". Just setting the record straight.


>>2632329

I repeat

>Non-European R clades don't exist among Native Americans.
>Non-European R clades don't exist among Native Americans.
>Non-European R clades don't exist among Native Americans.

There isn't a single one.

>>2632319
ANE is easily more than 20,000 years older than Yamnaya.

I'm preempting you here with Mal'ta Buret ofc.

>>2632326
>R1b and R1a carrying indigenous tribes of the steppe
R1b isn't indigenous to the steppe, it came there from West Asia.

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Which haplogroup is most representative of PIEs?

>>2632268
Basque, Sardinians, Serbo-Croato-Bosnians, Swedes (the original ones)
Or that's what i got from those autism haplogroup maps

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>>2632343

Nah not M269 anyway. It's very indigenous to the Baltic-Ukraine area and the local natives didn't have even a single drop of Arab admixture.


http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/03/02/112714.full.pdf

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>>2632333
R1 haplo in native Americans is a result of ANE ancestry. It's not the same thing as R1a/R1b and it absolutely isn't European: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%27ta%E2%80%93Buret%27_culture

>Research published in 2016 suggests that a Mal'ta like people were important genetic contributors to Native Americans, Europeans, Central and South Asians, and minor contribution to East Eurasians.[8] Lazaridis et al (2016) notes "a cline of ANE ancestry across the east–west extent of Eurasia."[8] Mal'ta had a type of R* y-dna that diverged before the hg R1 and R2 split and an unresolved clade of haplogroup U mtdna.[9] Between 14 and 38 percent of Native American ancestry may originate from gene flow from the Mal'ta Buret people, while the other geneflow in Native Americans appears to have an Eastern Eurasian origin.[1] Sequencing of another south-central Siberian (Afontova Gora-2) dating to approximately 17,000 years ago, revealed similar autosomal genetic signatures as Mal'ta boy-1, suggesting that the region was continuously occupied by humans throughout the Last Glacial Maximum.

>>2632356
>Arab admixture

Fucking retard. Shut up. You have no idea what you're talking about.

>>2632359

They didn't have Georgian or Iranian-Arabian admixture.
Yamna did have Georgian admixture though because they took women from them. Yamna was loaded with those hot Georgian mtDNA haplogroups.

>>2632357

R and Q are closely related which is more than enough for the ANE connection.

>>2632369
>Iranian-Arabian admixture

You're really rustling my jimmies with your ignorance.

>>2632371
ANE isn't fucking white or European. They were Mongoloids:

>Mongoloid features had been originally acknowledged in the skeletal remains of a child found at the site of Mal'ta. Alexeev (1998, 323) in his later publication was more cautious, stating that this area was "inhabited by a population of Mongoloid appearance".[4] Raghavan et al. (2014) and Fu et al. (2016) found that Mal'ta–Buret had brown eyes, dark hair and dark skin.

Yamna having admixture from them doesn't mean anything.

>>2632372

I don't give a fuck about Iranians and Arabs. Same shit.

R1b didn't come from them because it was already present in the European mesolithic and you're too inbred to get it.

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>>2632333
>if I repeat a lie enough times it becomes true

There were TWO waves of settlement from Siberia to the Americas after the LGM you idiot.

Or did you not know that Q and R are both descended sub-clades of P1?

>Europeans settled the American continent so that means Non-European Q clades don't exist among native Americans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1

>>2632386

Native Americans being R is just something the guys from StormFront came up with to prove that Irish potatoniggers are the real Americans.
It has no basis on reality. No one knows anything about these subclades, no paper has been written about them, nobody on online DNA projects has them. They exist on the obscure corners of the Internet only like Wikipedia which isn't edited by anyone without an agenda.

>>2632377

Your logic is shit and you're retarded. Kill yourself.

>>2632427
>butthurt because his "Aryan mustard race" had mongoloid admixture

HAHAHAHA

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>>2632377
>They were Mongoloids:
t. retard

Mal'ta boy only potentially derives 17% of his ancestry from a basal East Asian clade.

>>2632427
He's right though, kill yourself retard or shut up and take the blow like a man.

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>>2632377
>ANE
>They were Mongoloids

Ah I see you have refined your position, which if I am not mistaken originally was that "Mongoloid = Mongolian or Mongolian-looking".

What you fail to mention is that the Mal'ta boy is actually completely unrelated to modern East Asian populations, but rather more closely related to modern European and Native American populations.

>>2632404
>its a conspiracy!!!!!

t.brainlet

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7481/full/nature12736.html/PMC384887/

http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297(07)61293-2

>>2632433
>malta-buret
>mongoloid

Venus figurines m8t.

>>2632450

It's a meme not a conspiracy. Give me the ISOGG designated names of these Native American specific subclades.

Oh wait, ISOGG doesn't know anything about them.

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

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>>2632446
>>2632450
>NATIVE AMERICANS WUZ EUROPEANS N SHIEEET
>IT'S NOT ME THAT HAS THEIR ADMIXTURE, IT'S THE OPPOSITE

>>2632458
>>NATIVE AMERICANS WUZ EUROPEANS N SHIEEET
t. buttblasted illiterate

The majority of ANE(83%) is clearly descended from the West Eurasian node of non Africans.

East Asians are descended from the East Eurasian node that gave rise to Australasians,Andaman Islanders and ancient subcontinental Indians.

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>>2632458
>he thinks the oldest and singular Basal R signature wasn't found with artifacts suggesting a eastward migration of one of the only cultures to actually produce Venus figurines
>posts smug anime grills and adhoms

I think I've found a soft point in your Mongolian charioteers theory.

>>2632369
shut up you faggot

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>>2632475
East Asians aren't the only Neo-Mongoloids. There is also Siberians, South East Asians and Proto-Mongoloids such as the Jomon/Ainu and Maori/Polynesians.

Is it just a coincidence that the Euros with the most Yamna admix look the most chinky? I don't think it is.

>>2632488

There is literally no way R could have originated in Europe though. It's not related to European haplogroups but Asian ones and even Papuan.

>>2632491

Well at least you have camels

>>2632496
Aside from Björk, the other two look pretty white to me. What does your pic mean?

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>>2632520
>small and often slanty eyes, high cheekbones, etc are typical of northern Europe, region with the most Yamna ancestry
>big round eyes and fleshy looking face are typical of southern Europe, region with the least Yamna ancestry

really gets the gears going

>>2632496
>East Asians aren't the only Neo-Mongoloids. There is also Siberians, South East Asians and Proto-Mongoloids such as the Jomon/Ainu and Maori/Polynesians.
Siberians have ANE admixture,Polynesians and Island Southeast Asians have Australasian admixture.

The difference being the non East Asian admixture in the latter are descended from Eastern Eurasians while ANE for the most part is West Eurasian.

>Is it just a coincidence that the Euros with the most Yamna admix look the most chinky? I don't think it is.
Whatever purported basal East Asian admixture(no guarantee they were phenotypically Mongoloid) in Mal'ta boy would have been present in Western Hunter gatherers as well.

This basal East Asian admixture would be further diluted by the time that Yamna came into being(CHG).

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>>2632502
>no way R could have originated in Europe though

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup#Haplogroup_R_.28M207.29

>Asian ones

which ones, there are lots and lots of them. Do you include India and Central Asia, Siberia?

I'm skeptical of pic related, but it seems to be well thought of.

>>2632539

It's related to all haplogroups inside K2 all of which being Asiatic and Oceanian with the exception of R.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K2b_(Y-DNA)

>>2632563
>50,000 years old

Whew lad might as well say we're all Africans. Basal R is estimated to be at the youngest 20,000 years, at the oldest 34,000.

P1 is a better point of reference, given the apparently Southeast Asian origin.

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>>2632538
Here's the Swedecuck olympic team if you think I'm just making stuff up. Some of them look pretty chinky to me. It's not just Finns that exhibit this kind of phenotype.

>>2632575

Yeah maybe but still it shows how insane the idea of it coming from fucking Europe is.
Mal'ta buret might have had European haplogroups in addition to local R though.

>>2632579
>look pretty chinky to me

again with this shit, you never learn.

>>2632579
>Some of them look pretty chinky to me.
Learn to distinguish between phenotypes and genotypes.

It doesn't matter whether modern day Swedes they exhibit a Mongoloid phenotype,they lack substantial Eastern non African(ENA) admixture.

The Ainu were thought as a long lost "White" population when they partially descended from a basal East Asian population(Jomon).

>>2632496
I want to bork the Bork

>>2632591

graph I posted seems to suggest a Caucasian (geographically) origin of basal R.

Without a doubt though Mal'ta Buret culture had a significant Q presence, even though there only complete sample was basal R so there's no direct evidence for this claim. I'm confidant in the assertion of temporal cohabitation based on the recency effect and other times things like this happened (Yamnaya), but will refrain from drawing conclusions as regards the quality of their interactions.

>>2632613
*their

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>>2632592
Do I need to post even more extreme examples for you to start believing me? Pic related, most famous Danish actor.

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>>2632642
Literally looks Central Asian here.

>>2632613

Caucasus sounds pretty nutty. It's not some magical place where humans dispersed from every few thousand years.

Most people seem to think basal R comes from India. I don't know about that. There's other possibilities.

>>2632646
>>2632642
>chinky

autism

>>2632651
>Most people seem to think basal R comes from India.
Central Asia/Northern India isn't beyond the realm of possibility.

If R2 and early Q clades are any indication some of the ANE in that region would predate the Indo European expansion.

I'm more interested how P spread from Island Southeast Asia(or the P1 in Aetas is the result of isolation and continental P went extinct).

>>2632661
>nordcuck in denial

You have mongoloid admixture, son. You're not "pure Aryans" or anything. Sorry to crush your dreams.

>>2632579
The Swedish Olympic team still has swedes in it? How qauint and racist.

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>>2632651
>basal R comes from India

I doubt it just based on population dispersion through time.

>There's other possibilities

Certainly. I actually have considered India as the origin place of basal P.

>>2632686
>indication some of the ANE in that region would predate the Indo European expansion

Yamnaya weren't Indo-European, but their descendants were. So far the subject matter of this thread hasn't even come close to the Bronze age, you're making 40,000 year jumps in your reasoning.

>more interested how P spread from Island Southeast Asia

daily reminder that present distribution cannot accurately represent maximal past or original distributions due to the effect of exponential information loss over time.

now lets give the ladies some attention.

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>>2632689
"""Nords""" are I-group you fathead, it's Western Europe that has the R1b.

I don't know why you're strawmanning so hard when faced with the fact that you didn't know an asserted origin point for basal R wow.

>So far the subject matter of this thread hasn't even come close to the Bronze age, you're making 40,000 year jumps in your reasoning.
Fair enough,it would be interesting whether ancient DNA from East Asia could prove whether Mal'ta and WHG are admixed with a basal clade of East Asians(using Kostenski 14 as a unadmixed West Eurasian).

>>2632723
>daily reminder that present distribution cannot accurately represent maximal past or original distributions due to the effect of exponential information loss over time.
Hence the my inclusion of "the result of isolation and continental P went extinct".

This reminds of me that everyone thought K came from Southeast Asia/Australasia until information came out that West Eurasian Ust'Ishim/Oase 1 carried pre NO K2a*.

>>2632723

http://www.phylotree.org/tree/X.htm

X2g has a sibling subclade called X2l found in a Qashqai so it seems that it came from Central Asia

But X2a still has the closest relative as X2j which is Egyptian. X2a still probably came from Central Asia rather than some transatlantic trip from North Africa.

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>>2632729
Look at:

>>2632289
>>2632290
>>2632294
>>2632301

Nords are the ones with the most Yamna admix. Yamna in pic related plot quite close to Siberians. I don't know else what to say or post to convince you at this point. I think you're just being in denial of your Asian roots.

>>2632729
>haplogroup the only genetic marker
>ignoring the significant existence of the N haplogroup anyway, even though N is proto mongoloid
>doesn't understand that simply not having that haplotype doesn't disqualify you from having genes from people who did have it
the fuck you on

>>2632766

They weren't West Eurasian but symmetric with East Asians and WHG.

>>2632775
>They weren't West Eurasian but symmetric with East Asians and WHG.
Not according to the most recent study. See >>2632446

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/34/4/889/2838774/A-Working-Model-of-the-Deep-Relationships-of

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>>2632773
>dank
pale ale

>>2632772
>Yamna in pic related plot quite close to Siberians.

They would, given the fact that their descendants moved eastward into Siberia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture

>being in denial of your Asian roots

this line immediately outs you r/masculinity anon.

>>2632795
*r/asianmasculinity

>>2632767
that's like the opposite of relevant information to the discussion, and more like deliberate obfuscation of the subject.

>>2632786

Ust Ishim is very, very old. He was still symmetrical with East Asians and WHG despite being modeled as within the root of West.
Kostenki despite being just a few thousand years younger has a more pronounced relationship to WHG.

>>2632795
>Siberia UP
>Sintashta or Andronovo

No. Those people are literally Inuits. They don't have anything to do with Indo-Europeans. Yamna plot close to them because of their ANE admixture that they acquired earlier.

>>2632801

It's the most relevant information there can be.

What is the discussion anyway?
It's just two Central Asian haplogroups in America.
Whats so special about that? It's been known a long time that Native Americans don't have exclusively East Asian ancestry.

>>2632811

>ANE admixture that they acquired earlier.

But wouldn't they always have had it as it's linked to their R1 haplogroup?

>>2632802
>Ust Ishim is very, very old. He was still symmetrical with East Asians and WHG despite being modeled as within the root of West.
True,it would be interesting to see what the upcoming Tianyuan paper has to say.

My point was K wasn't limited to Southeast Asia(you have Oase 1 as well).

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>>2632811
>Those people are literally Inuits.
>Sintashta or Andronovo
>They don't have anything to do with Indo-Europeans
>Part of a series on
>Indo-Europeans

perfectly perfidious, you reveal yourself so openly. Inuits literally invented the chariot, you heard it here first guys.

>>2632815
>It's been known a long time that Native Americans don't have exclusively East Asian ancestry.

One anon seems keen on denying that for some reason.

>most relevant information there can be

Please explain why.

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>>2632284
>Closest to Neolithic Anatolians/Balkanians:
>Sardinians

>Sardinian I2a1 - 39%
>South-Slavic I2a1 - 60%

>Closest to yamnaya:

The most frequent genes amongst the Yamna are R1a and R1b....though I2a1 neolithic were found as well.

Lithuanians are the closest to the Yamna people, and speak the most archaic Indo-European language.

>>2632847

Because the debate about X2 is Solutrean vs Siberian so it matters where their closest relatives are.
Egypt is kind of within the realm of Solutrean but Qashqai isn't, yet both X2g and X2a are found in the same tribes so two distinct origins are highly unlikely.

>>2632847
Lrn2reading comprehension. I'm saying the "Siberia UP" sample there doesn't have anything to do with the region Sintashta or Andronovo was located, which was in South Siberia.

>>2632852
They also look chinky. Very interesting, right.

>>2632852
>speak the most archaic Indo-European language
>Lithuanians are the closest to the Yamna people

Anon you're mostly right but listen the Yamnaya weren't strictly Indo-European, but their descendants were. Guess why.

>>2632868
>chinky

it's autism awareness month guys

Quantify and further qualify this term. What unit of measurement do you use to define an organisms "chinkyness"?

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>>2632890
Looking like the right side.

>>2632896

They are both ugly

>>2632890
He' right though

>>2632896
>Looking like

Quantify your terms pseudo-scientist.

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>>2632868
>They also look chinky. Very interesting, right.

Of course. That's because the Indo-Europeans are mutated Asians (Mongol-Turks).

R (IE) -> P (Mongol-Turkic) -> K2B (Papa New Guinea) -> K2 (Australian Abos)

>>2632953
>P (Mongol-Turkic)
>origin Southeast Asia

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>2632896
Will the horse peoples ever recover?

>>2632294
>Admixture

It's not how it work
Yamanya were R1b while Nord are I1

THEY DON'T HAVE THE SAME BLOOD 't Indo-Europeans

>>2632986
>Yamanya were R1b while Nord are I1

those are just parental lines, they could easily share mitochondrial DNA.

>>2633001
*paternal

>>2632268
Judging based on linguistics, I would go with Lithuanians and Latvians.

This matches up fairly well the the genetic data presented in >>2632294

>>2633012

Interestingly Latvians and Estonians are among the tallest in the world

Yamna men towered over Neolithic Europeans

>>2633039
>Yamna men towered over Neolithic Europeans

I doubt you can source this.

>>2633012

Nonsense, both of those are very modern languages. The closest to PIE is some hybrid of Sanskrit, Hittite and Mycenaean Greek.

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>>2632946

>>2633045

http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/genomes-ancient-farmers-reveal-natural-selection-action-0/

>Additionally, the team detected two independent signals for height: a selection for reduced height on the Iberian Peninsula relative to both Anatolian and central European samples, followed by a signal for increased height in the Eurasian steppe populations around Russia. These suggest that the modern south–north gradient in height across Europe is due to both increased steppe ancestry in northern populations as well as selection for decreased height in southern Europe.

>>2633064
>composite groups based solely on phenotypical facial similarities
>chinky

KEK

>>2633006
Paternal lines is what matter , French Spanish, Anglos, Irish, Scotts, and Welsh are the GENUINE SONS of Yamnaya.

>>2633078
>iflscience

you have to go back

>>2633091

Fuck off.
>Harvard Medical School, University of Adelaide, and University College Dublin

You're just butthurt. Neolithic farmers were little shits who got rekt by big bucks.

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>>2633101
*blocks your path*

>>2633101

The Neolithic farmers were apart of the Yamna Civilization.

I2a was the only other haplogroup found on the sites besides R1b

>>2633190

No they weren't. I2 isn't just farmer anyway but also HG.
Little cuckold midgets had no business in the steppe. It was for big tough guys with lots of HG heritage.

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>>2633202
>Little cuckold midgets had no business in the steppe. It was for big tough guys with lots of HG heritage.

>>2633202
Fuck off cucks

Only R1bulls are Yamnaya n-I-ggers would not last one second in the steppes sourrunded by all these manly darh haired men

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>>2633202
>Indo-Europeans got genocided in Central Asia by manlet Turko-Mongol nomads

really made me think

>>2633231

Horse archery and tactics had improved drastically by the time of the Mongolian empire.

In the Yamna days being a big buck was the best thing which is why height was selected for in them.

>>2633252
So the Yamna had horses but didn't really use them to conquer people? A small frame is best suited for riding on a horse after all.

>>2633054
>The closest to PIE is some hybrid of Sanskrit, Hittite and Mycenaean Greek.

None of which exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_languages

"Old Prussian, a Western Baltic language that became extinct in the 18th century, ranks as the most archaic of the Baltic languages.[6]"

"The Baltic languages are of particular interest to linguists because they retain many archaic features, which are believed to have been present in the early stages of the Proto-Indo-European language.[7]"

>>2633257

Wagons were more common than horseback riding

Keep in mind horses also improved over time thanks to breeding

>>2633252
I'm so sick and tired of hearing about 'muh horse archers'

The majority of the hordes walked with normal melee weapons and it was THEY who spread the Horde not the few faggots on horses afraid to engage in real combat.

Do we even know if the Yamna were genocidal maniacs or just peaceful immigrants? The majority of the ancestry of Europeans does NOT come from the Yamna after all, only the language and religion.

>>2633295
And the paternal line

>>2633295

>obsessed with weapons above all
>peaceful

Pick one. They didn't bury themselves with shovels but maces.

>>2633252

So what marker is associated with Yamna?

R1a? R1b? I2a?

Celts (R1b) are manlets, Balts and Russians (R1a) are soft-skinned blonde manlets, and I2a (Serbs) are dark-haired, 6'1'' warriors

>>2633295
Yamnaya practiced a religion of peace and were poor war-refugees

They caused no strife and lived well along their Old Europeans brethren

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>>2633303
>So what marker is associated with Yamna
R1b in the South, R1a elsewhere as they were indigenous to the steppe and domesticated the horse etc.

>>2633303

Serbs are big but not that big.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-36888541

>>2633299
That really depends. Finns have almost no Indo-European paternal haplos for example.

>>2633303
>So what marker is associated with Yamna
R1a and R1b. I2 was never as dominant.

>>2633312

That's because the Netherlands is richer and has better nutrition than Serbia.

"I2a1b - The haplogroup reaches its maximum frequency in the Dinaric Alps in the Balkans, where the men are on record as being the tallest in the world, with a male average height of 185.6 cm (6 ft 1.1 in).[4]"

Also the Dutch aren't Yamna, they're I1 "Farmers"

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>>2633303
>>2633395
Balkanic l2a must be a very different subclade from Sardinian l2a then, because Sardinians are turbo-manlets. They're like 172cm compared to the Italian average of 176.5cm.

>>2633395

Dutch have very little I1 you idiot.

I would bet a horse that Serbian I2 originates in hunter gatherers rather than farmers.

Sardinian I2 is also from hunter gatherers.

Farmers were a bunch of cucks.

>>2633420
>Balkanic l2a must be a very different subclade from Sardinian l2a then, because Sardinians are turbo-manlets. They're like 172cm compared to the Italian average of 176.5cm.

Sardinians being manlets is due to genetic drift.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/10/sardinians-relatively-short-by-design.html

>>2633420

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L158/

Sardinians I2 are descended from Europeans but not closely related to the Europeans that Serbs descend from. We have to go back 20000 years to the common ancestor.

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>>2633064

>Paleo Atlantid

Sign me the fuck up. Where are Sardinians in this mix?

>>2633469

They're actually closer than that.

Sardinian is I2a1a
Serb is I2a1b

They're as close as you can get, subclades wise it seems.

>https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L158/
where does it show it's connection to I-L621

>>2633510
>Sardinians are 20% R1b

Look at that Celtic lass!

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>>2633510
Sardinians would be Gracile Med I think, which is the main phenotype of Iberians. Pic is missing Dinaro-Med though, which is the main phenotype of the Italian peninsula.

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>>2633532
>Dinaro-Med though
>Dinaro
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

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>>2633541
That's just a shared physical characteristic. Both Dinarics and Italics have big crooked noses.

>>2633554
>That's just a shared physical characteristic. Both Dinarics and Italics have big crooked noses.

You do know that 18 roman emperors were born in the territory of Serbia, right?

Dinaric phenotype is most closely associated with the I2a1, which is found most frequently here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture

And is part of the Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis.

https://www.livingdna.com/en-eu/fatherline

Have any of you done this test? I did 23andMe recently, and my paternal haplogroup turned out to be R1a1a1. However, this test promises to find out the exact subclade, so that I might be able to determine whether mine is of Slavic, Germanic, Iranic or whatever. Is it worth a hundred bucks?

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>>2633575
>denying that Italians have big noses

Stop being autistic. The "Dinaro" there is not meant to be taken literally.

>>2633575
You know, your trolling us really starting to wear thin. Please put on a trip so we can filter you.

>>2633601
>Stop being autistic. The "Dinaro" there is not meant to be taken literally.

>Dinaro meaning "big-nose"

Kek.

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>>2633615
Well, you can't say that the nose isn't a defining trait of Dinarics. "Dinaricized Mediterranean" means a Med dude with a nose just like a Dinaric. That's what they use when there's a lack of a better term for it.

>>2633638
Do you think that Dinaricism has anything to do with I2a1?

>>2633648
Certainly not in Sardinians. They're manlets and have small noses.

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>>2633667
This sardinian looks pretty Dinaric

>>2633682
But from what I've seen in some anthro forums, they resemble Iberians the most in terms of phenotype, and non-Basque Iberians have low rates of convex noses. Even French have more.

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>>2633723
anthro forums =/ reality

>they resemble Iberians the most in terms of phenotype

To a degree since the Sards have 20% R1b and 11% J2, the two most dominant Iberian markers.

But I would definitely not say Sards most resemble the Spaniards, asside from being manlets which is a coastal thing.

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>>2633761
I don't think phenotypes have a very strong correlation with genetics to be honest. Sardinians would look like aliens compared to everyone else in Europe if that was the case since they're extremely genetically isolated. Phenotypes have more to do with the environment and adaptations resulting from it.

>>2633811
They're genetically isolated due to being on an island and having a lot of incest.

Also there hasn't been any serious autosomal DNA comparisons between the Sardinians and the herzegovinian South Slavs

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>>2633835
Just the fact that Sardinians are manlets with small noses just tell you something about this.

Also, a good example of how phenotypes don't have much to do with genetics would be the Andamanese by the way. They look like the Negroids of Africa due to the similar environment both of them live yet they couldn't be more genetically distant from each other.

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Find:
* Show the top 1,000 women (between the age of 19-29) in Sardinia (in Nuoro & Oristano) with the lowest amount of ancestral genetic drift outside of Nuoro & Oristano
* Take 10,000 random men and women within Nuoro & Oristano and have them rank on a scale between 1-10 the beauty of each of these 1,000 women
* Show the top 10, choose which woman
* Repeat process for men
* Show the top 1,000 women (between the age of 19-29) in Brittany (in Finistère & Morbihan) with the lowest amount of ancestral genetic drift outside of Brittany
* Take 10,000 random men and women within Brittany and have them rank on a scale between 1-10 the beauty of each of these 1,000 women
* Show the top 10, choose which woman
* Repeat process for men

Sardinian Woman x Breton Man =SaBr Woman
Breton Woman x Sardinian man = BrSa Man

SaBr Woman x BrSa Man = SaBrBrSa Female


>the perfect racefu

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>>2633842
They really don't.

>>2633842
If what you say is true, then the sardinians would like the same as sicilians, since they're both island people on the west mediterranean. But they're really different in phenotype

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>>2633858
I already said it's Iberians who resemble Sardinians the most in terms of phenotype, but Sardinians are dolichocephalic just like South Italians for example (Iberians are as well).

>>2633852
They kinda do

>>2633874
But Iberians are completely different in terms of geography and climate to the Sardinians.

Sicily and Sardinia share the most elements, yet Sicilians are primarily armenoid-east meds

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>>2633972
Not that different. Iberia is very sunny as well. And Sardinians are some real swarthy fuckers actually. Even Sicilians and Calabrians are lighter than them.

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>>2634014

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>>2634019

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>>2634014
>Not that different. Iberia is very sunny as well. And Sardinians are some real swarthy fuckers actually. Even Sicilians and Calabrians are lighter than them.

skintone =/ phenotype

Facially Sardinians are more Balkanian looking while Sicilians are more Greek/Mideastern

>>2634070
Why do you think they look "Balkanian"? The guy to the right looks textbook Iberian to me. He looks like some Portuguese guy I met here one in Veneto one time.

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>>2634100

Just have more dinaric features (robust features, boxier head shape, eye-shape)

Classic Iberian look is like the Geico Caveman, or Rafael Nadal. Lots of Cromagnon there.

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>>2634150
Dinarics look fucking scary though. They look like characters from horror movies. That guy looks like wouldn't hurt a fly.

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>>2634241

Kek. So now they have to look like horror villains. They can be gentle and harmless like these children.

>>2634276
I'm scared of Serbs 2bh. But Bosnians and Croatians would be more Dinaric than Serbs as they live closer to the Dinaric Alps and are heavier on l2a, don't you think?

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>>2634325

Those Bosnian Croats and Muslims (Bosniaks) are Catholicized and Islamified Serbs for the most part...which is the reason for their animosities.

The Nucleus of the medieval Serb state is in the Dinaric region (and today Serbs are a majority in most of it).

Ironically however the Herzegovnian Croats have the highest rates of I2a1b (73%).

>>2634325
Most Croatians are not Dinaric...only the ones in Bosnia/Herzegovina.

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>>2632290
It's funny because Haak et al. actually proves the opposite. Yamnaya was up to 50% CHG (teal) and yet Finns have one of the lowest levels of CHG in Europe. Using K=20, they have a negligible amount. It's therefore impossible that they are the most Yamnaya-like in Europe, and certainly not 50% Yamnaya. This figure is inflated by pre-Yamnaya hunter gatherer admixture shared by both Finns and Yamnaya. The fact is that no European population even gets close to 50% Yamnaya, especially considering that there were other vectors for CHG into Europe, particularly the south-east.

>>2633835
>and having a lot of incest

Sicilians are a lot more incestuos

>>2634568
Sicily was literally an orgy of foreign empires

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>>2634582

>>2634584
>1930-1964

Sicilians have more diverse yDNA.

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>>2634591
Not significantly

>>2634596
Sicily has no haplogroup over 25%, it's very mixed.

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>>2634596
>no Sicily in pic

Let me help you: >>2633420

By the way, they're the closest to Pelopponese genetically.

>>2633811
Sardinians might be isolated when compared to other Euros but in the great scheme of things they are European considering they're much closer to Euros than to anything else:

>>2632357

>>2632268
Why are PIE threads super fucking cancerous?

>>2635090

Bump for Sardinians being Island Serbs

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>>2635102

>>2633514

No they're not close. I2 is just one of the oldest European haplogroups and it spread all over the Europe from Ukraine to Portugal after the last glacial maximum.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

This is the ancestor of Serbo-Croat I2.

I-CTS10228 inside it has a TMRCA of 2200 years.

It's not Illyrian and it's not Dinaric. It's Proto-Slavic.
It came from hunter gatherer descended men in Ukraine or Poland who were absorbed into the Indo-Europeans to form Slavic people.

Serbo-Croats are just really Slavic on the paternal side and really Balkan on the maternal side.

Something similar happened with Sardinians as the immigrant farmer women from Anatolia got some penis from local European men.

>>2635090

Because 4chan has pretty shitty people to begin with and these threads attract ethnocentric people with agendas

>>2633842
They became like that because they race mixed

They lost their natural phenotype it's all

>>2632268
Lithuanians are the closest linguistically speaking.

>>2633303
>balts
>manlets

Tallest women in the world - Latvians
Forth tallest men in the world - Latvian

>>2635316
Balkanian are I2 on the y haplogroup

>>2637230

Not really. Albanians and Greeks don't have much.
Didn't check what I2 subclades Romanians have but probably mostly Slavic ones as their language has a lot of Slavic loanwords.

How does one acquire a pure bred Lithuanian gf?

>>2637283
by killing yourself

youll be together in heaven

>>2637283

Start working at a suicide prevention help center

>>2632329
oh, constantine forgot to put on a trip

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>>2637269

>>2637392

Comes mostly but not entirely from Slavic clans who migrated there from the Slavic homeland as far as Balkan Slavs are concerned. Try to comprehend that CTS10228 is not Illyrian.

>>2637406
lol are you that Serbian wewuz from the other thread? stop your wishful thinking momcilo

>>2637444

No I am not Serb or Balkan. I think it's pretty cool that Serbo-Croatians descend from proto-Slavs though.

>>2637472
I2a1 is not considered protoslavic by anyone momcilo

>>2637479

Why do Poles carry the ancestral type of CTS10228 then?
I'm sure Ukrainians and Belarussians have it too they just aren't wealthy enough to get tested.
How could it not be proto-Slavic? Of course it's the marker of only some proto-Slavic clans rather than all but still it can't be associated with anything except Slavs.

>>2637491
Momcilo you are a stupid ridiculous serbian we wuzer please adopt a trip so we can filter your fucking nonsense

>>2637507

>we wuz balkan and shit i2a1 is balkan reeee fuck off with this subclade bullshit waaaahh

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>>2637531
WE WUZ PROTO SERBIANS N SHIIIET SERBIA DO TOKIJIA

>>2637553

You just don't get it for some reason.

CTS10228 carrying Slavic clans migrated to the Balkans, other clans with R1a migrated to other places but usually with some I2 clans with them. They all still came from the Slavic homeland since CTS10228 has ancestral types there.
There is a flat 0% chance CTS10228 can be Balkan.

>>2633064
>that north atlantid woman

I am in love.

>>2637562
There is a 0% chance any of your Serbian wewuzary has any basis in fact whatsoever

>>2637570

See >>2635316

0% chance Poles are the true Illyrians

>>2637580
Your whole post is wrong, I2a is not considered protoslavic by anyone momcilo

>>2637587

I2a is really fucking old idiot. Of course it's not all proto-Slavic. There is Balkan I2a which has nothing to do with Slavs but those are not common in Serbo-Croats compared to CTS10228.


CTS10228 is proto-Slavic along with some other I2 subclades and many R1a subclades.

>>2637593
You know you can repost it a million times doesn't make it true momcilo!

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>>2637598

If CTS10228 isn't Slavic why do North Slavs have it?

Look man you're just really fucking retarded that's all.

>>2637630
Look momcilo you have not provided a single link to an article that considers it protoslavic and you're a dumb fucking wewuzer

>>2632284
>Georgians
>Indo-European

>>2637649

What the fuck else would it be? Baltic? I could see it as Baltic yeah.

If you're too fucking dumb to understand YFull and FamilyTreeDNA maps you shouldn't be talking about this subject.

>>2637673
Either back up your wewuz claims with scholarly articles or go back to the Serbian section of the skadi forum

>>2637689

Apparently there are no papers published about this shit at all. It's of no interest to anyone other than gene hobbyists.
Too bad, my mentally challenged friend.

>>2637786
OK thanks that's all you needed to post, you may return back to your Serbian blogs now, btw stop spamming links to that shitty Serbian we wuz documentary from youtube in every thread too

>>2637800

Lmao I'm not Serb. Are you a Bosnian or something?
Bosnian I2 being Slavic seems to terrify you for some reason.

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>>2632290
>aryan
Europeans are not aryans. Aryan is a historic Indo-Iranian ethnicity, not a race. We both speak Indo-European languages but you are not aryan. Persians, for example, are aryan. Europeans are not.

>>2637806
No I'm I'm not Bosnian. You probably are that serb from the other thread claiming all Slavs descend from Serbs, it's okay momcilo, you may shape your entire world view from eupedia forum posts but don't come here selling them as fact :^)

>>2637820

Serbo-Croatian-Bosnians descending from CTS10228 proto-Slavs doesn't mean all Slavs descend from Serbs who have less of it anyway. Slavs originate in the Poland-Belarus-Ukraine area.

>>2632268
Celts and Iberians. Greeks and Armenians have ancient Anatolian ancestry. R1a which is found in Slavs has been associated with the Yamna and Comb Ware cultures.

>>2637840
>CTS10228 proto-Slavs
You're doing it again! Link to anthropology papers instead of posts on forums and maybe I'll take you seriously momcilo!

Oh wait...you said can't. :^(

>>2637840
>Serbo-Bosniac-Croatians

fixd

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>>2637852

>dinaric

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>>2637865
Oh boy here we go again

>>2637852

I didn't link to any forums tard. YFull is a legit service as is FamilyTreeDNA.
It's your own problem you can't look at the information presented there and comprehend it.

>>2637807
Indo-Iranians are relatives to eastern Europeans. That's why their languages are satem languages.

Why is r1b considered great, when they did fuck all most of the time?

>>2632268
i'll go with iranians or south balts.

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>>2637877
>have no response

>>2637882
>I didn't link to any forums tard
Yes I know. Simply made nonsensical claims and asked questions when called out on it.

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>>2637901
Tell me about the island Serbs of Sardinia again momcilo

>>2637904

It would be a nonsensical claim if I didn't source it with YFull.

>>2632357
>>2632386
to my knowledge ydna-r hasn't been found in any pre-columbian native american bodies nor has any other groundbreaking work been published on its presence in northeast native american populations. it's largely found in one area anyways.

>>2637908

why? What point do you think I am trying to make? Do you think posting pictures of similarly dressed women is grounds for a legitimate argument?

>>2637908
Neolithic Caucasian, Italic, Anatolian Arab Turk mix.
Would breed.

>>2637952
>ydna-r hasn't been found in any pre-columbian native american bodies

You people never learn. R1 (R-M173) is ANCIENT, and predates the R1a/b split. The extreme and overwhelming majority of post-Columbus Euro influence on indigenous y-DNA should evidence a greater number of markings denoting a more recent (modern) origin if this were the case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1#Americas

>Significant frequencies of RPS4Y-T are found in several northern Amerindian and Na-Dene populations (Bergen et al. 1999; Karafet et al. 1999), and in Lake Baikal region and Mongolia (Karafet et al. 1999), but is absent in Europeans (Bergen et al. 1999), reaching its highest frequencies in the populations of eastern Siberia. The P-M45(x R1-M173) subhaplogroup essentially seems to connect the population of eastern Siberians with the North- and Central-American Na-Dene and the surrounding Amerindian speakers. The RPS4Y-T diversification lends toward east Asia. The data correlates well with previous conclusions about the maternal migrations into Americas.[14].

>R1-positive P-M45 tested populations: Udegeys, Koryaks, North- and Central-American natives.[14]

>Other authorities point to the greater similarity between haplogroup R1 subclades found in North America and those found in Siberia (e.g. Lell [12] and Raghavan [13]), suggesting prehistoric immigration from Asia and/or Beringia, deriving from two major Siberian migrations. The first migration came from middle Siberia with the founding haplotype P-M45(x Q-M3). A second migration came from southeastern Siberia (Lower Amur/Sea of Okhkotsk/Kamchatka region) with the founding haplotype P-M45(x R1-M173), delineated by the RPS4Y-T marker, and took place at 7,000–9,500 years before present.

>>2638021

These studies are from the 90s and used a low number of markers. The last part is nonsensical.
Anyone can edit bullshit into Wikipedia.

>>2638037
>from the 90s

that's not even close to true, (14) is 2002, (12) is 2002, and (13) is 2014.

Why do you tell lies on the internet?

>>2638058

2002 is too old.
I've actually read the Raghavan paper and it says nothing about Native American R.
It's about the genetic relationship between a boy from the Mal'ta Buret culture who was genetically related to Native Americans and also R but...

>The extant sub-lineages of haplogroup R show regional spread patterns within western Eurasia, south Asia and also extend to the Altai region in southern Siberia (Supplementary Fig. 5b). The sister lineage to these extant sub-lineages of haplogroup R, haplogroup Q, is the most common haplogroup in Native Americans5 and it was recently shown that, in Eurasia, haplogroup Q lineages closest to Native Americans are found in southern Altai7.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4105016/

They explicitly deny that there is native R in Native Americans. You're a fucking idiot who believes Wikipedia vandalism.

>>2638099
>too old

not an argument

>explicitly deny that there is native R in Native Americans

There is literally nothing in your greentext of their full statement implying that. Try harder. Is that single non refutation all you have?

You can't just label every source that disagrees with you vandalism, obviously the people who wrote the entry seem to disagree with you. You reek of agenda and dogmatic thinking.

>>2638159

Everything older than 2008/2009 must be dismissed without exception when it comes to haplogroups. They hadn't figured them out yet before that so every paper was wrong. They thought R1b is Aurignacian for fucks sake.


Try reading the greentext until you can understand that there is an explicit claim in it that R sub-lineages are NOT found in America.
Nowhere in the paper is there any claims that the exist. It was simply vandalism that it was added to Wikipedia to support a meme.

>>2638172
>every paper was wrong

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>2637507

Dude that's not me, I'm the one claiming I2a1 is the Proto-slavic gene.

>can't accept that many consider I2a1 proto-slavic

>>2632651
>It's not some magical place where humans dispersed from every few thousand years.

If so, no more so than Ethiopia, the Yellow River, or the Indian sub-continent.

>>2638001
lol those are Serbian women.

But the fact that you thought they were Sardinian is proof.
Island Serbs!!

>>2632268
Bump

>>2637807
But that's wrong. Persians merely speak an Indo-Iranian tongue, they carry no Aryan paternal lines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjn-leEIT70

>>2637659
Finns don't speak IE either, yet have the most Yamnaya blood. >>2632290

>>2639606
There's some but they also appear to have been Arabized or Turkified.
Also some relationship with the Caucasus considering places like Ossetia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_the_Near_East

Romanians

>>2638001
>arab turk mix

No

>>2638216
He's more or less right about this, genetics field constantly evolves, studies from like 5 years ago mostly belong in trash can, because they're wrong on so many levels.

We still need a lot more sampling but Yamnaya-like ancestry based on what we know so far peaks in Scandinavians, north Slavs, various Turkic and Uralic groups from the Baltic to the Urals and maybe some South Asian groups.

Closest to them would be some Uralic groups in Northeast Europe. Scandinavians and South Asians have some ancestral components that pull them further away from Yamnaya. But they really are outside modern variation, since contemporary populations are descended from them at ~50-60% at best.

>>2633064
The three Atlantid it's how I imagine Numenoreans looked like. They are cute, CUTE.

>>2633257
Yeah, but horses at those times were too small, and only harnessed in chariots they could be used for war, it only was after thousands of years of breeding than horses stout enough to ride and use horse archer tactics.

>>2637807
Gauls were Aryos

>>2639932
Horses were initially used as food, then to drag wagons (as another anon mentioned). Chariots appear a bit later.

David Anthony's book about the steppe is honestly the only thing you need about the earlier phases as a general reader.

https://eurasianist-archive.com/2016/12/28/the-indo-europeans/

Thoughts on Dugin and what he says about PIE/modern IE?

>>2642080

>Dugin

A Russian with an inferiority complex who can offer no valuable insight into anything except the Russian nature but even then only as an example

>>2642170
Each and every time I see Dugin mentioned, I see at least one or two butthurt dips say something like this, it immediately confirms to me that the guy is onto something, only a man with some integrity and ideas would have this many detractors flinging shit like monkeys at him.