Compare and contrast these two men. Who was more effective?

Malcolm X was better, but his nignog state would have just collapsed and then whitey would get blamed for it

>>261958
not sure they both seemed to have good ideas but they were also lacking in other areas
wonder what would have happened if they worked together.

>>261958
Everyone knows MLK, and I believe his side of the Civil Rights movement was larger and easier for Blacks, particularly the Southern poor churchgoing crowd, to identify with.

Malcolm X also played a huge part. I don't think it's fair to say he was less effective, rather his ideologies were harder to accept since they were more radical. If we see a duo like this rise today, I think things would be reversed and more people would accept Mr X's stance.

>>262051
I find it highly likely that if they were not murdered, they would have come together for something big.

>>261958
Malcom's ideology would have led to a better future for black people than King's.

Dr. King essentially wanted blacks to integrate into white society and live as equal citizens to them. Malcom wanted blacks to establish their own society. Now that black people have become a normal part of America they are still held down by dependence on the state and a lack of ownership and responsibility for their environment and situation. Even if Malcom's state had collapsed it would be solely the fault of the people residing in it and, therefore would have led to better and more successful attempts in the future once the precedent was set. As it stands now most black people blame almost all their misfortunes on something external that's keeping them down or have a sort of inferiority complex that prevents them from trying. That type of behavior would have been weeded out of a self contained nation state long ago and stayed out until the state had grown comfortable enough to support such people again.

>>262117
I don't know I feel like the opposite is true.

A society in which Blacks are successfully intergrated eliminates the idea that failure is due to whitey or blackies fault as full intergration would mean the annihilation of a strictly black culture and a strictly white culture. Theoretically that is.

Black people have the full potential to equal whites in accomplishment.

Instead what I see now is a militant culture of ignorance perpetuated through poorly integrated black neighborhoods and doing anything to escape this culture and behave like white people is considered to be a race traitor and 'uncle tom'

>>261958
Malcolm wanted blacks to be separate and independent so they don't have to rely on white society and white welfare

>>262203
>A society in which Blacks are successfully intergrated eliminates the idea that failure is due to whitey or blackies fault as full intergration would mean the annihilation of a strictly black culture and a strictly white culture. Theoretically that is.
This is a bad thing. Black people wouldn't have a cultural identity anymore where as every other ethnic group in the country does. That's not a recipe for success.

>Black people have the full potential to equal whites in accomplishment.
ehhhhhhh I'm not going to disagree but~

>Instead what I see now is a militant culture of ignorance perpetuated through poorly integrated black neighborhoods and doing anything to escape this culture and behave like white people is considered to be a race traitor and 'uncle tom'
It isn't because of poor integration, though. The culture existed before hand on a much smaller scale and exploded as the dominant mood of "Whitey owes me this and that" and "We're oppressed so we need to struggle" etc. after the civil rights movement and persisted afterwards because most of the black community now DEFINES itself by "The Struggle" (a narrative of conflict between the black community that dindu nuffin and the rest of the world on their individual and collective paths to equality of outcome, not treatment but outcome). That is the culture of modern African Americans and it is so because of the civil right's movement being handled as a conflict against oppressors for a place in THEIR system rather than the creation of their own systems and therefore their own cultural identity. Most black people still define themselves in the context of who they are in relation to whites or from a "white" point of view.

I'm half-black and have lived in the ghetto, the city, and the suburbs btw. Probably should say that.

>>262237
Id argue that any individual cultural identity isn't a good thing. It's divisive by its very nature.

There should be one cultural identity and that is the American one that all Americans should strive to both join and improve, regardless of skin color or ancestral origin.

I do understand your viewpoint though and it does hold merit. Maybe I'm wrong here but that's just my opinion of the matter.

>>262302
There has never been a singular "American" identity, and there never should be. There have always been a multitude of different cultures in America, from Anglo-American (including Anglicized immigrants), to African-American, to Native American

>>262117
Wait so basically it boiled down to "Let's go live in Liberia"?

>>261958

Didn't MLK steal his dissertation?

Malcolm X wins.

>>261958
MLK was a republican, Malcom X was a black panther nationalist

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>>261958
Marcus Garvey was best

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>>261972
A segregated state would be wildly more succesful over what we have now.
>>262051
MLK was a marxist, practically, and played the "give us what we want or we will chimp out all over town".
>>263924
This.

I love Malcom X. Especially when he and Elijah allowed the ANP and George Lincoln Rockwell to speak at NOI.

Well, consider that Malcolm X ended up changing his views from black nationalist to more like MLK after Mecca.

>>263945
Not really no. He just changed his views away from NOI because he hated the Saudis I think. Also the whole thing with Elijia fucking those women. Basically Malcom had a good heart but was exploited by Elijia.
He went from "fuck whitey" to "let's learn from him and do it ourselves"

>>263975
>because he hated the Saudis I think

Actually it was the other way around (supposedly). The story goes that he went to Mecca and saw Arab pilgrims (who would have been considered "White" by definitions of the time) mingling with Black pilgrims and he realised that racial segretation conflicted with his religious ideals.

>>263993
I'm pretty sure he saw that blacks were treated much differently than the Arabs and he started to hate the Saudis. It also reformed his views on something or other. But I'm pretty sure he stayed segregationalist after his Mecca trip but moved away from NOI.

>>264001
The story I heard was that he moved away from NOI after his Hajj and that it was attributed to his experiences talking to Muslims outside the American political sphere for once.

I could very well be misinformed though, Malcom X certainly kept his segregationist views afterwards. I don't think he'd be super outraged with what the Sauds were pulling considering his entire career was based on that sort of thing.

>>263993
Yeah but Arabs aren't culturally white and many of them have mutt blood.

>>264012
I very may be misinformed as well. I've read his biography years and years ago (I'm upset the editor pulled sections of it), I wish there was a more comprehensive look at his life; but I like him 100 more than MLK.
The reason he was upset with the Saudis is because he thought Arabs were not "white" and more like his "African brother and sisters" or some mumbo jumbo like that. And how "islam is supposed to be about unity" idk.

>>264001
He still advocated for pan-africanism and black self determination, but not segregation.

>>264067
>The reason he was upset with the Saudis is because he thought Arabs were not "white" and more like his "African brother and sisters" or some mumbo jumbo like that.

This is the first I've ever heard of it. I can imagine it being true though, Shabazz had a lot of funny ideas and was a big believer in Pan-Africanism. How Arabia is somehow part of "Africa" seems a bit dicey to me.

>>264077
Like I said, it would be interesting to read more about him.
>>264072
Well by segregation I mean black nationalism kinda things.

>>262203
From what I've seen from my older family members racism from the old days has stuck with them
>Jim Crow era
>they claim to hate white people but dummy up around them
>lack of education to teach them the difference between things like xenophobia, stereotypes, and racism
It's sad but then theyll say something really dumb that makes me lost all empathy.

As a thinker and intellectual Malcolm X, as a political person and activist MLK by far.

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>>264093
>eating dinner that I cooked for myself while home from college while mother is out.
>she walks in, me eating alone eating watching TV
>"Use a napkin like a white person honey"
>mfw

>>264109
>Use a napkin

>like a white person


Jesus fucking Christ

>>262312
>and there never should be

in your opinion

>>262117
They already tried that, it's called Africa.

>>263858
no

malcolm looked at jews, indians, chinese etc and saw that instead of relying on white people to accept and integrate them into their society they created their own success. the black equivalent of chinatown or little italy or whatever. the ideal would be moving to a low population area and setting up a community that was exclusively black. black businesses, doctors, schools, etc and growing it from there until they are equal with whites.

What's with the 60's and everyone getting fucking assassinated? Were the times that crucial that it spawned all these influential people?

>>264194
2 superpowers instead of one maybe? The backdrop of the Cold War combined with sweeping cultural/social/technological changes resulted in battles of ideologies being much more "hot."

idk

>>264084
>Well by segregation I mean black nationalism kinda things.

No. He disavowed racism entirely.

>>264150
That sounds really awesome desu

Why wouldn't blacks support this?

>>264274
>Why wouldn't blacks support this?

Something something welfare stamps

>>264274
Maybe because they understood that separate doesn't mean equal and is literally the opposite of the integration they wanted.

>>264274
blacks did support it but malcolm's message was heavily radicalized in the beginning and alienated a lot of moderate blacks. also there were plenty of white provocateurs who sabotaged black attempts at self-sufficiency. in the end MLK's "integrate" platform had wider mass appeal since it was on the surface easier by comparison. in addition after X was assassinated his reconciled message of "create your own success while peacefully coexisting" was diluted by the people trying to claim his legacy.

also there was one important difference between blacks compared to other immigrant groups. blacks had to deal with the additional hobble of there being no single "black culture" they could hold onto as a backbone to build their communities. black culture at that time was a unique flavor of american culture distantly influenced by west african traditions. this played into the desire to be integrated rather than make your own. blacks felt american and wanted to be part of america.

>>264109
Thankfully my parents are more level headed
>listen to all music talks with proper grammar
>you wanna be white huh?
>in college work at walmart get called uppity because I was encouraging someone to go for better opportunity
>I graduated from the trap makes 9$ 35 years old
really nigga?

>>264274
Once that black community becomes successful, it's only a matter of time until white liberal yuppies move in and gentrify the area.

>>264467
>successful
>not owning your own home

>>264118
I'm white.
She ment actually use the napkin rather than not.
Black people don't come home from college more than once (^:
>inb4 ban
>>264209
He was extremely anti-Semitic and was racist to white people.
>>264327
Crab mentality is the bane of the black man.
Fuck man, we really have done an injustice to your peoples by bringing you here.

>>264480
I imagined a successful black community as a mixed income community with lots of history, not some utopia where all the well educated blacks live in some gated community, free from the poor blacks in the projects.

>>262237
Thier cultural identity to get rich through sports, become rap stars or sling dope or some combination thereof, And if they don't succeed blame whitey for it.

Tell me how that is better than simply assimilating and accepting white cultural norms, like getting an education working hard and going to college?

>>264717
The examples you gave are the results of the belief that they've already failed.

>>264814
>insert phrase that removes personal responsibility
Fucking whitey man. Always keeping a brother down.

>>261958
you got to look at them like a good cop, bad cop team. Malcolm scared the white people, shifting their perspective making them more willing to compromise with MLK than if MLK were to go at it alone. Malcom gave an articulate outlet for the anger of black society, which makes non-violent protests easier to swallow.

>>263940
>MLK was a marxist, practically, and played the "give us what we want or we will chimp out all over town".
You would not know marxism if Karl Marx rose from the grave and beat you to death with a hardcover copy of the communist manifesto.

>>267032
Too bad he was a fat jew faggot.
MLK hung out with Marxists (regardless if they "actually are")

>>264507
Lmao what. And your peoples is a bad term family, more of our ancestors yours for bringing us and ours for trading us. Regardless it worked out cause I don't have to worry about lion attacks:)

>>264150
They have those. They're called ghettos.

And they've contributed rap music and gang violence.

>>261958
Look at the shit Malcolm experienced with while growing up.

Super traumatic which it did shape his world view and I agree that 100% integration is so vague and pulling off the colour blind shit is as retarded as a man addressing an all women group in a seminar but refusing to use any gendered pronouns and shit and just use neutral ones even if the topic is FEMALE HEALTH and REPRODUCTION.

>>264123
Because it never will happen because new shit pops up on top of regional identities, town,city as well as status and education.

Cultural compromise is utter shit because the winner dominates the mix and alienates others and controls the flow.

who killed malcom x though

>>261958
MLK was undoubtedly the more successful of the two, but funnily enough I don't think the people in his camp would have been as successful without the NoI and Panthers' agitation.

Also, Malcolm after leaving the NoI was best.

>>267975

>I don't think the people in his camp would have been as successful without the NoI and Panthers' agitation.

This is true. The more radical groups scared the establishment and made them more willing to work with King than they otherwise would have been.

>>261958
I like Malcom's fire, but the fact that he was a Muslim puts it over the top for King.

>>268059
Wasn't Maclom X a black nationalist?

>>268113
Yes.
He was a true leader for the black community in America.
Imagine Malcom X after leaving and Thomas Sowell rhetoric being popularized.

>>261958
The fuck do you even mean by "effective"? At what?

>>268125
Okay with that being said, isn't black nationalism a supremacy movement? I could be wrong, but wouldn't groups like NOI would preach anti- Semitic and segregationist rhetoric? I remember reading about NOI's Quran and how it was stating the the blacks were god's chosen people and how people are inherently the devil.

>>268180
I meant to say how white people are inherently evil.

>>268180
They preached a lot of things. I am talking about if Malcom X left the NOI and wasn't killed.
Black Nationalism is kind of a black supremacy thing. Not nessicsrily. Just like white nationalism isn't white supremacy.
NOI was "anti-semetic" rightfully because of the harm the NAACP was doing. And the Jews that exploited black communities and now today, rappers.
Straight out Compton touches on that last bit

>>268220
So you're pro NOI? Also, being anti-semitic is never justified.

>>268180
Contemporary Black Panthers are black supremacists, and have nothing to do with the old Panthers. Old Panthers were separatist, not supremacists.

>>268235
I am pro black nationalism.
The NOI did a lot of harm because it was corrupt
>anti-Semitism is never justified
Good thing most jews are not semites.
I told you why the anti-Semitism was justified. Malcom X called them out by name and exactly what they were doing.

>>268254
Are you black?

>>268267
No.

Booker T. Washington was America's greatest Civil Rights leader.

Malcolm and MLK were opportunists, although the latter was reprehensibly loathsome. Not only was he a serial plagiarist, he openly collaborated with Marxist revolutionaries and rabble rousers determined to burn America down. MLK merely played Good Cop to the revolutionaries Bad Cop.

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I know this thread is dead but I gotta say. I usually catalog shit from this site to read the next day at work. I am glad that jap added this board. Thos is the best most balanced board and I enjoy learning and reading what you guys type. I didn't really think intelligent discourse was possible on 4chin. God bless you all.

>>262117
>Dr. King essentially wanted blacks to integrate into white society and live as equal citizens to them. Malcom wanted blacks to establish their own society. Now that black people have become a normal part of America they are still held down by dependence on the state and a lack of ownership and responsibility for their environment and situation.
I disagree. I don't think that blacks have really integrated, and frankly I don't know if they can. They stand out, visually, far more than any other people. The poverty culture is extremely well ingrained. Even if they all suddenly became middle-class, I feel like they'd still remain separate from the rest of Americans - muh oppression, and how the Civil Rights is taught as such a huge part of our history (more so than the progressive movement of Teddy's era) give them the whole basis of their identity. I don't think that they'd all go ahead with being just any other American.

I think that Malcolm X had the right idea. Blacks need their own country, and I don't mean in Africa. A fully separate one, no whites allowed. Black lawyers, black judges, black juries, black police, black lawmakers, black employers, black teachers. They'll fail at first, but it'll finally fix them, long term, as they come to terms with what's wrong.

MLK wouldn't have gotten as much done without Malcolm X and his lot to scare people though.

Does /his/ believe all that stuff Hoover had in his file about MLK? The whole beating up hookers stuff? And being a closet communist (or just close with communists)?

>>264274
It's been attempted, the problem is it's pretty expensive to start up a modern city from scratch and convince people to move there.

>>267961
Nation of Islam members, possibly under orders from Louis Farrakhan and/or Elijah Muhammed.

>>269423
They can just jump-start Detroit then.

>>268505
>Booker T. Washington was America's greatest Civil Rights leader.

Lol with that Atlanta Compromise kekoldry.

>>269699
Detroit has been left to die by pretty much the federal, state and anything outside the safe zone aka what the police can patrol with what little they have.

>>269885
>Spinoza
>Black
>Spanish
>Jew

Well at least he got one of those right.

>>268253
>>268220
>>268180

In practice I see zero difference between racial "separatists" and supremacists.

>>269885
What the fuck am I reading? Who wrote this inane drivel?

>>270111
Well you then have a mental disease (^:
>>270200
Malcom X I believe

Malcolm X was a racist piece of shit and doesn't deserve the praise he gets.

>>271000
He was right about a lot of what he said.
Not all of it. But large portions.

>>271000
trips tell the truth

>>261958
In practice?
Neither really. It got off the ground because of the people already entrenched in society campaigning for it.

>>269809
Yeah, because Marxist revolutionaries are a much better alternative.

>>273109
Booker's "solution" was pretty shitty since the gradual shift to full equality can be indefinitely delayed in so many ways.

>Essential elements of the agreement were that blacks would not ask for the right to vote
So higher powers can put in measures that harm the black community that said community cannot contest. Even if said policies hurt poor whites those people never cared about historically poor whites except to gain more power.

>they would not retaliate against racist behavior
which further encourages the behavior in the first place. If Billy can insult Joel all day long and even the most Ghandieasue retaliation Joel gives gets punished then that further encourages the behavior on Billy's part.

>they would tolerate segregation and discrimination

with said segregation and discrimination hampering integration. Being the most skilled trady means nothing if no one hires your nigger ass or give you shittier wages compared to white trades of your skill. Infact the fact that Blacks would work for less pisses others a lot as well.

>that they would receive free basic education
>education would be limited to vocational or industrial training (for instance as teachers or nurses) liberal arts education would be prohibited (for instance, college education in the classics, humanities, art, or literature).[

People should be free to pursue anything they'd like keeping people out of the liberal arts is a great way to cut down on the creative and social output of a people. It's nice that they are throwing in the basic education that was denied for so long.

Ever saw that episode of Spongebob with the SeaBear attacking squid ward.

>>274073
Equality will never happen because we are inherently unequal.
Not because it can be delayed indefinatly