Were there any cases where castles developed into cities?

>>2609977
yes, but it is rare to see. Blame feudalism

Most people just built around the castles for protection. My guess for any castle cities would be northern Italy southern France

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>>2609977
you mean was there ever a City like Ministirith?

That's be awesome! but alas neh there was now.

>>2609977
Pretty much every German (Swiss, Austrian) town that ends in -burg?
>Hamburg
>Würzburg
>Salzburg

>>2609977
A castle would barely fit a small village, and needed a few nearby anyway to support it.

>>2610316
I always hated that representation of minas tirith. The scaling is way off. It looks like -at most- maybe 500 people could live in it. Hardly a city.

>>2610330
different shots took on different scales. So at time you could see how itd be very populated, but I hear ya. 2003 filmography for ya.

>>2610330

it looks plenty big, although there ought to be more of the city along with farms sprawling out from the surrounding, my town's not much larger and we have 2-3k

>>2610319
I think OP is asking if the castle itself developed into a city, not a city developing around a castle, sice there's loads of examples for that.

>>2610362
Then OP's question doesn't make a lot of sense, because castle cities always developed around castles, not inside them.

>>2610337
Yeah, when they were walking through the streets it looked about the right size, but that didn't match up to any of the shots of the whole city.
>>2610353
For reference the top is only 700ft high, and here it appears higher than it is wide, so the whole city is basically in a 700ft at most wide, 700ft tall cone. It's tiny.
Granted if it had a city and farmland sprawling outside the walls, and it was only a castle town it would be fine. But Minas Tirith is suppose to be the capital city of gondor. The problem is that the city/castle/citadel described in the book is impossibly large.

>>2610388
love how we argue about the accuracy of a film that also has dragons, Fly Snake lizards, Undead beast soul reapers, and magical rings of godly power in it.

>>2610413
Well, I demand my fantasy be properly scaled.

>>2609977
Define: castle
Define: city
Anyway check out Japanese and Chinese castle towns. Probably as castle cityish as anything ever got.

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Morella

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>>2610316
Luckily such a place did exist, and it makes your made up place look like crap

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>>2609977
There's a few places like this in Switzerland

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>>2611290
Also Gruyères
I visited the H R Giger Museum there

>>2611291
You can't really see it, but there are walls all around the town, or at least high windowless walls on the outside

>>2610413
Internal consistency

>>2610805
>it makes your made up place look like crap
Not even that anon but you are insane if you think that little mudball can hold a candle to Minas Tirith or whatever the fuck it's called.

>>2611291
I always wanted to go to the Giger museum. Mind sharing anon?

>>2610316
Why didn't the orcs just blitz the top part of the city from that outcrop on the left. Probably could've taken the entire complex in a few hours

>>2611414
probably like the Thermopylae : very difficult to find a path to the top, and even then, impossible to carry machines on it

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>>2611394
Sorry, it was not allowed to take pictures. But it was awesome, especially the art.

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>>2611419

>>2609977
Of course, Paris's original Louvre for instance.

No, Castles always had suburbs to support them. You can't farm and hunt inside castle walls.

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>>2611641
So Vauban fortifications count ? It's easy then

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>>2611291
That looks comfy as fuck.

>>2610473
That's a fortified city, not a castle.

>>2611302

t. Tolkien

I think there have been cities inside temples in India.

>>2610362
That doesn't make any sense, how would that even work? Castles were usually small spaces, because you need a lot more stone, work and defenses for more inner area.

>>2610413
Fuck off. Internal consistency is important.
The movies aren't as good as the books. At all.

>>2611438
The Louvres was part of the fortifications of Paris and was built outside the walls by Philip Augustus I think.

>>2611712
The Louvres does not appear on this map, from 1550, so I don't know (Philippe Auguste was from the xiiith century).
It should have been where "Les Bernardins" is.

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>>2611712
It was part of the walls. Usually, there's no point at having a castle in the middle of your city, it's a defensive thing, it needs to be in some part of your wall for it to make sense. The Louvres was part of the walls, like many citadels and city castle.

The castle of Nantes as well was protecting the eastern side and the river access. It's placed in communication with the walls, but you could definitely access it from the inner city.

Many arabic citadels worked like this, they were a unit that was kinda closed from the city but in relation to it, and protecting from the outside threats but you could run out of it without going through the city (just in case the city was revolting or something). Those castles were build to resist both interior and exterior threats.

>>2611729
shit, the map is like 24 mb
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Plan_de_Paris_vers_1550_color.jpg

>>2611732
>>2611729
You looked at it the wrong way, it's not in the middle upper right, but in the middle bottom left, the Louvre is definitely there and inside the walls. You would know if you had looked at various others map of Paris, but it's easy to miss.

Very pretty map though.
Also it's "le louvre" no "s" there (i fucked this half of the time myself though, not a parisien mind you).

>>2611738
You're right, no s, merde

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>>2610460
The Chinese generally do not have a concept of Castles- that is: a large permanent, purely military fortified structures. It was almost always fortified cities for them.

The closest would be either thr Frontier Forts near and around the great wall and fortified villages in the countryside since they were privately owned by the village, since Imperial Chinese period villages tended to be clan villages. Since Chinese civilians were empowered to defend themselves and police the law- especially in the remote countrysides- they forted up to help out in this regard.

>>2609977
You had towns built around castles. You could argue every English castle became a city because the stone was used to build houses, because LMAO being poor
OP please rephrase as it makes no sense

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>>2611729
>>2611731
Here, the Louvres is top left, slightly outside the walls

>>2611738
See >>2611791 the Louvre was built outside the walls when it was built tho

>>2611641
Is that real? Holy shit.

>>2609977
Wouldn't most walled cities count?

>>2609977
I think several balkan cities started out as ottoman forts.

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>>2611802
there are dozens of this kind in Europe, and a few in America, i think

>>2610805
Thats gorgeous.

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Palmanova is kind of what you want OP.
But it's actually not a castle, and it didn't grew into a city.
The thing is, it's hard for a city to develop inside of a castle, they almost always develop near a castle, not within a castle.

>>2611815
>Palmanova is kind of what you want OP.
>But it's actually not a castle, and it didn't grew into a city.

Therefore that's not what he wants

>The thing is, it's hard for a city to develop inside of a castle
>they almost always develop near a castle, not within a castle.

No shit

What a worthless post

>>2611797
>>2611791
To me it was part of the wall, sure it standed outside as it should but it was still connected to the wall and accessible from the inner city. It's not like it was 1km away as some other city castles.

>>2611821
Y so triggered tho?
No seriously, I just want to point out, that his demand was wrong, and provided something that's closest to it.

guys
castles built by nobility are head of their land, it usually developed around it but not very often developed into a city

"free" cities on the other hand, which were dependant only from the king built forts, walls etc around their town

best examples would be in northern italy with city states

>>2611799
Naarden

>>2611808
It looks like a town in ESIV Oblivion. So comf.

>>2611825
OP asked if there were any castles that were built before a city grew around it. He's not asking if any cities grew INSIDE a castle because that's a retarded question which you seem not to notice.

>>2611837
>Naarden
Cheers man that place is crazy, I've never seen it before.

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Maybe Lisbon

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>>2611438
>>2611791
Paris wasn't built around the Louvre, the Louvre was built much later in the 12th century as part of the fortifications of Philip Augustus.

Before the 16th century the French royal palace was the Cité Palace on the Cité island (pic related). That occupied a good part of Paris back when the city was just the fortified island, and even before that it was a Gallo-Roman fortress, but Gallo-Roman Paris is even older.

>>2611926
Sorry I meant before the 15th century, late 14th.

>>2611926
It wasn't build around, but the Louvre itself was build into the city defensive apparatus, that's the point of this thread right?
Oooh or maybe I had misread the thread's title the whole time...

>>2611845
Face it, OP is an idiot, and so are you.
Now go suck some dick while we have our castle thread!

>>2610353
Blame the fact that Jackson decided to omit farmlands surrounding the city and the outer wall that surrounded them. Those were in the books and got removed alongside with stuff like the trenches orcs dug during the siege or how Saruman fucked off took over Shire after the whole Rohan fiasco.

>>2611641
Naarden looks different in the snow mang

>>2611808
I can see the playground where I used to play from here.

They cut down a lot of trees though.

>>2611945
You didn't post a castle, dumbass

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Maybe Derbent, considering it has structures that are over 5000 years old and a long ass walls that used to stretch from the mountains to the sea, that was utlizied by natives and Persians to keep Scythians, Huns, Avars, etc out of the Caucasus. City was literally ment to be a gateway between civilization and steppefagistan.

However, the current standing Fortress was built by Sassands circa 5th century AD.

>>2611961
You're lucky. Are houses expensive here ?

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post more cute castles!

>>2612003
that's cool
on google maps, we can see the remains of the walls that led to the see

>>2612007
Depends on your definition of expensive.

http://www.funda.nl/koop/naarden/naarden-vesting/

>>2612025
Hah, it's ten times less expensive than where I live, but I'll still have to spare more money to buy any of them

>>2609977
Almost all the castles created on plains and fertile areas developed into villages and cities. My hometown for example was a little fort in the XIV century that started to gather people and the oldest modern document from the XVII century already states it was a village controlled by the clergy, then the king and in the XIX made common among the rest of the country (Catalonia, Spain).

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>>2612113
>Catalonia
>Spain