Yamnaya thread

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Go away aryancucks

>>2592630
You don't have to go that far back with some groups. All Europeans are directly related to Charlemagne and pretty much everyone else who was alive back then and had offspring.

>>2592630

These threads are cancer and always devolve into some Iranian wewuzzing rather than any meaningful discussion about Yamna culture or it's origins

>>2593079
Then make them better. There's so many unknowns so it's not surprising shit gets a bit obscure.

>>2593385

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sredny_Stog_culture

Apparently, Yamna had a half civilized brother culture which they chimped out at and destroyed.
Some people think Corded Ware originates in Sredny Stog while Bell Beakers in Yamna and that these two groups didn't like each other much and chimped out at one another even in NW Europe. Even WW2 could be seen as a continuation of this conflict.

>>2592630
Yamnaya was 5,000 years ago, not 20,000

>>2593656
But traces of ancestors connected to the Yamnaya have been found going back 20-24k years ago. I'll google it if you want, but I'm pretty sure it's in the main wikipedia article. Feel free to edit it if it's wrong.

>>2593567
Yamna was the replacement of Sredny Stog, not a brother culture. They weren't even contemporaneous. Kurgans may have destroyed Cucuteni-Trypillian but this is just a hypothesis.

>>2593737

>They weren't even contemporaneous

Irrelevant since all the shifts from cultures to their successors were gradual. Yamna came from Khvalynsk which was contemporary.


Sredny Stog still looks like a good candidate for the ancestors of Corded Ware though.

>>2593737
This lack of competition for limited resources was probably one of the reasons that the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (as with most of the other European Neolithic cultures) had no evidence of war throughout their entire existence

archaeological findings in the region indicate Kurgan (i.e. Yamna culture) settlements in the eastern part of the Cucuteni-Trypillian area, co-existing for some time with those of the Cucuteni-Trypillian

Cucuteni-Trypillian culture ended not violently, but as a matter of survival, converting their economy from agriculture to pastoralism, and becoming integrated into the Yamna culture

>>2593737

It is therefore more likely that Dnieper-Donets marked the transition of indigenous R1a and/or I2a1b people to early agriculture, perhaps with an influx of Near Eastern farmers from 'Old Europe'. Mitochondrial DNA sequences from Dnieper-Donets culture showed clear similarities with those of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the Carpathians (haplogroups H, T and U3). The first clearly Proto-Indo-European culture was Sredny Stog (4600-3900 BCE). Towards the end of the 5th millennium, an elite starts to develop with cattle, horses and copper used as status symbols.

http://www.academia.edu/5965973/Origins_and_history_of_Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA_

>>2593797

Can't prove that Yamna didn't simply murder them.

>>2593817
>projecting genocidal fantasies
go see a shrink

>>2593797
>perhaps with an influx of Near Eastern farmers from 'Old Europe'

We have two early CWC samples without any farmer admixture or even CHG component. It's very likely that they adopted agriculture without receiving farmer ancestry as the same happened in Baltics.

>>2593868

>people in the past were super nice to each other for no reason and genocides were unknown before the 20th century

Fuck off.

>>2593868
>>2593881
Calm down, kids.

>>2593871

These CWC samples you're talking about were genetically similar to Yamna but had the R1a haplogroup. But yes they lacked the farmer component.

"Just call them Aryans!"

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>>2593902
Well yes, what I was trying to say that at least in CWC's case we now know that actually unmixed CWC's without farmer ancestry existed and later they picked up farmer ancestry in Europe not prior migration.

Farmer ancestry appears some time later probably via females.

>>2593933
back to /pol/ pls

>>2592630
>all (or most) Caucasians have some verifiable common ancestors about 20k years back

will people on this board ever learn that culture/language =/= genetics?

Caucasian is also a bullshit term, just say white.

The people of the Yamnaya Culture most likely spoke the ancestor language of all Indo-European languages and therefore arguably can be seen as CULTURAL ancestors of the cultures where these are spoken today (if you ignore the significant non-indo-european cultural influences).

LINGUISTIC, and arguably CULTURAL heirs of these people thus include:
- Iranians
- Gypsies
- North Indians
- Mexicans
- Kurds

None of which are usually considered white or "Caucasian"

LINGUISTIC, and arguably CULTURAL heirs of these people DO NOT include:

- Basques
- Finns
- Estonians
- Hungarians
- Sami

All of which are usually considered white or "Caucasian"

All of the actual Caucasian peoples except Armenians are non-Indo-European btw, though I don't know whether you consider actual Caucasians "Caucasian" or not.

>>2593938

>Farmer ancestry appears some time later probably via females.

No they integrated the farmer men as a matter of survival

>>2593965
small correction: Tats and Ossetians are also Caucasian and IE

>>2593965
If you go by the culture slippery slope/meme then Hispanics and American negroes are Indo-European/Aryan.

>>2593980
>>2593965
this


caucasoid is the most flexible and convenient phenotypical grouping that is extended to include superficial "caucasoids" (that actually belong to other races)

mixed groups such as north africans, middle easterners, indians, hispanics (mestizos), amerindians, ainus, east africans, central asian turkics, have all been labelled caucasoid due to weak superficial similarities.

it is ignorant and supremacist to favor the caucasoid grouping over non-caucasoid when labelling mixed groups

truth is:
north africans are a mix of west africans, east africans, mediterraneans and arabs

middle easterners are a mix of west africans, east africans, mediterraneans, iranians and indians

hispanics (mestizos) are a mix of africans, amerindians, europeans, arabs

indians are a mix of native veddoids, elamites, arabs, mongoloids, iranians

central asians are a mix of mongoloids, iranians, indians


caucasoid is misapplied as the default race for anyone that exhibits superficial traits as: straight hair, non-snub nose, non-everted lips, round eyes

>>2593965
>None of which are usually considered white or "Caucasian
Depends on who you ask 2bh. Most of the time, those would be considered Caucasian, no matter if /pol/ likes being associated with 'brown people' or not. It's usually to do with body and skull type anyway, not skin colour. Only Americans obsess over skin colour as the great yardstick or something. Europeans come in many shades (not even talking about the recent migration thing) so I think we have outgrown that.

>>2594023
>we wuz white n shit
poojeet detected

see
>>2593288
>>2593279
>>2593317

>>2594048
>we wuz white
Not sure where I implied that, but since you seem to have gotten quite offended and immediately reverted into a meme spouting frenzy I can only deduce you are a normal American (i.e. a retard).

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>>2593969
Why are you so sure? There's evidence to suggest that CWC women were more mobile than men, and we know that CWC spread mostly due to males which scenario do you think is most likely? 10 CWC men fuck one female that migrated along with them and she gives birth to multiple kids or that these CWC male migrants picked up local woman?

>Corded Ware was strongly influenced by the Yamnaya Culture that arose in the steppes of eastern Europe and western Eurasia after 3000 BC, as indicated by recent aDNA research. However, the development of CW on different chronological and spatial scales has to be evaluated. Examination of the CW burials from southern Germany supports an argument for substantial human mobility in this period. Several burials from gravefields and larger samples from two large cemeteries at Lauda-Königshofen "Wöllerspfad" and at Bergheinfeld “Hühnerberg” contributed the human remains for our study of bone and tooth enamel from the Corded Ware Culture. Our results suggest that Corded Ware groups in this region at least were subsisting on a mix of plant and animal foods and were highly mobile, especially the women. We interpret this as indicating a pattern of female exogamy, involving different groups with differing economic strategies.

>For later migrations from the Pontic steppe during the LNBA, however, we estimate a dramatic male bias, with ~5-14 migrating males for every migrating female. We find evidence of ongoing, primarily male, migration from the steppe to central Europe over a period of multiple generations, with a level of sex bias that excludes a pulse migration during a single generation.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0155083

>>2594091
>The number and proportion of females with distinctive strontium isotope ratios is notable and suggests that women were more mobile than males in CW society. Such evidence fits well with recent genetic information documenting more varied haplogroups among CW females [14]. Müller et al. [2] suggest female exogamy as a means of maintaining lineage identify in the face of rapid, long-distance mobility. Haak et al. [25] also reported genetic and Sr isotope ratio differences between males and females at Eulau, Germany, suggesting female exogamy. The fact that such a difference is identifiable at all also suggests that males were largely stationary, at least in the sense that they were mostly born, raised and buried in the same locality. We suggest that this reflects a stable exogamic system where women moved to their husband’s settlements, existing at Bergrheinfeld for several generations. As no distinctions in burial treatment were associated with incoming women, either the exogamic exchange involved only CW groups, or incoming women were completely integrated into CW society.

:^)

>>2593988
They are Indo-European-speaking. That's a fact.
They are not Aryan because that was the (cultural, linguistic) self-designation of only the Proto-Indo-Iranians, not all Proto-Indo-Europeans. You are probably misunderstanding the meaning of the word Aryan, because the Nazis popularized a misinterpretation of this term, but it has an actual, different meaning.

The Indo-European languages largely spread through cultural diffusion, not through genocidal mass migration. Therefore even speakers of the protolanguages of the different branches did not necessarily share biological ancestors.

Again: LANGUAGE IS NOT GENETICS!

>>2594091

>Yamnaya Culture that arose in the steppes of eastern Europe and western Eurasia after 3000 BC

Really triggers me that the dates always change like an RNG. Sometimes it's even 3700 BC for Yamna.

>>2594116
>The Indo-European languages largely spread through cultural diffusion, not through genocidal mass migration. Therefore even speakers of the protolanguages of the different branches did not necessarily share biological ancestors.
>Again: LANGUAGE IS NOT GENETICS!
Yes but you seem to be implying that because there was a linguistic spread that there necessarily wouldn't have been a genetic one. IOW, there was no common ancestor because there didn't need to be one.
This hardly proves there wasn't one. I do get that it's possible there isn't one, but it doesn't mean there couldn't have been one.

>>2594105
>>2594091
Not to mention the fact that vast majority of European Y-DNA paternal haplogroups are steppe derived R1a and R1b. Whereas Anatolian Farmers Y-DNA markers are at very low frequencies.

>>2594151


They got culturally diffused. Deal with it. Outdated views about mass IE immigration belong in the trash.

>>2594167
>Oudated

These studies are from 2016 and so far you haven't presented any arguments to prove otherwise.

>>2594167
>Outdated views about mass IE immigration belong in the trash.

Yes there was no mass IE migration, steppe ancestry during Bronze appeared nearly everywhere in Europe out of thin air.

>>2594190
Holy shit. This is like how the Elves appeared in ME out of nowhere.
I always knew Europeans were modeled on elves.

>>2594178
>>2594190

Repeat after me. LANGUAGE IS NOT GENETICS!

Genes don't speak so there were no IE genes.

Genes are genes and languages are languages.

>>2594091
>10 CWC men fuck one female that migrated along with them and she gives birth to multiple kids
this is totally feasible tbqh

>>2594116
>meaning of the word Aryan

Armenians call themselves Ara
Irish Éire from Arya
Greek Aryans in the form of aristocracy aka aristos


The word Arianus was used to designate Ariana, the area comprising present Herat in the western part of Afghanistan

The term Arya is used in ancient Persian texts, for example in the behistun inscription from the 5th century BCE, in which the Persian kings Darius the Great and Xerxes are described as "Aryans of Aryan stock" (arya arya chiça). The inscription also refers to the deity Ahura Mazda as "the god of the Aryans", and to the ancient Persian language as "Aryan". In this sense the word seems to have referred to the elite culture of the ancient Iranians, including both linguistic, cultural and religious aspects. [57][59] The word also has a central place in the Zoroastrian religion in which the "Aryan expanse" (Airyana Vaejah) is described as the mythical homeland of the Iranian people's and as the center of the world

>>2594205
Again, >>2594134

>>2594205
>LANGUAGE IS NOT GENETICS!

It isn't but it's very clear that Indo-European languages back in those days spread with genetically very related people, in some areas people merely adopted to Indo-European culture and language without much ancestry. Sardinians for example speak Indo-European language but they have like 5% steppe ancestry, where modern day North/Eastern Euros have up 2/3 of their ancestry from steppe.

Is it that hard for you redditor brain to comprehend this?

>>2594205
without genetics there would be no language

checkm8

>>2593933

>just call them proto-indo-europeans
>and call them all Indo despite the fact they didn't originate in the Indian sub-continent, but rather because a single offshoot settled there

>>2594262
Is this guy for real or pretending to be retarded?

>>2592630
WE

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>>2593965
>LINGUISTIC, and arguably CULTURAL heirs of these people thus include:

Latin, Sanskrit, Irish, Hindi, English, Russian, Spanish, French, Bengali, German, Welsh, etc

gee I wonder how the Spanish language got to Mexico

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

>just say white

kill yourself brainlet

>>2594268

you're the retard here

neck yourself cretin

>>2594294
hurr durr retarded nigger

>Thomas Young first used the term Indo-European in 1813, deriving from the geographical extremes of the language family: from Western Europe to North India.
>deriving from the geographical extremes

>>2594303

Germans have always used Indo-Germanic because it sounds better

>>2594303
>geographical extremes of the language family

if you would kindly follow the postchain, you will see that we're talking about people and not a language family.

>just call them aryans XDXD
>proto-indo-europeans lel

autist

>>2594305
I don't give a fuck what they used, the name was coined as in purely geographical context that's because where these languages were spoken from India to Europe or Europe to India whichever way you like it, it wasn't coined to suggest where it originally appeared it was coined in in early 19th century I doubt that they even had the slightest idea as archaeology or linguistics at that point were in the shitbucket

>>2594318

They should just be called para-Germanic languages imo

>>2594305
>*ermans

>>2594316
my god you're so fucking retarded literally slit your wrists you waste of oxygen

>>2594331
that makes absolutely no fucking sense

>>2594336
>i am absolutely btfo better kys!!!!!

>>2594344
>le meem arrow green point text proves i'm right !-11

Come on kids, that's enough fighting now. Keep it civil, this isn't /pol/.

Idunngettit
Are talking about ethnic groups or language here?

>>2594397
More about common ethnic ancestry, language is more incidental really

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>>2594397

the thread is about Yamnaya, obv an ethnic group. OP even talking about ancestry.

fpbp is even a haplomeme.

Yamna is a culture or ethnicity.

Nobody can ask a Yamna person about their life, so we use genetics and archaeology to study them. Unfortunately genetics don't necessarily follow culture in most situations.

Humans have always traveled and interbred, it's ignorant to think of any single group as a homogeneous genetic unit spanning thousands of years. That's just being ignorant of human nature.

There's also a huge problem with sample size for these ancient genomes that we have discovered. We may never get an entirely clear picture.

>>2594305
I vote for Celt-Tocharian

>These are a great cultures you Neolithic farmers of the Cucuteni-Trypillia, Linear Note Pottery, Baden, Atlantic Megalithic cultures have created but my inner Aryan instincts compel me to Aryan out and kill you, but don't worry your legacy will live on because I intend to fuck the shit out of your daughters and make them give birth to an army of Aryans

What did they mean by this?

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>>2594458
you mean culture doesn't necessarily follow genetics, genetics come before culture by necessity.

>>2594519

chariots is a hell of a drug