Who was in the wrong here?

>>2522947
I don't know, but apparently my ancestors sided with Cromwell, is that good or bad?

>>2522952
>siding with Puritans

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>Literally Did Nothing Wrong: The King

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>>2522953
>not siding with Puritans

>going to Hell for having sex during some arbitrary time frame.

>>2522947

Both sides kind of have a point. Henry should be king due to his grandfather taking the throne by right of conquest. York should be king by right of having a better claim on paper. The agreement that Henry would be king until he died then pass the crown to York or his heirs was the best solution for everyone, with the exception of Edward of Westminster and Margaret who was understandably not too keen on her son being cast aside with the stroke of a pen.

>>2522954

Apart from that whole "extrajudicial murder of political opponents" deal, though when you look at the bigger picture the Woodvilles probably WERE trying to launch a coup against him. That ridiculously out of character cavalry charge probably wasn't the best idea either.

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>>2522947
They were both wrong, there was no reason not to let the Black Prince's son be king in the first place.
also this>>2522954
Richard III was based, fuck Shakespeare

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>>2522952
LOL get cucked, I'll take that Kingdom back thank you very much

>>2523068

Richard II (the Black Princes Son) didn't have any children, so on paper the Yorkists should get the crown via the Mortimer/Lionel of Antwerp line.

>>2523072
Just dont start any stupid shit with the Dutch, bro

ITT: people on a history board who can't tell the difference between the Wars of the Roses and the Wars of the Three Kingdoms/English Civil Wars.

>>2523099
Easy to not have children when your uncles starve you to death in a tower...

>>2523110
I thought we were talking about the 100 years war?

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>>2523112
>tfw I just realized that I had a dream where this exact thing happened to me and it was probably me internalizing this story in a modern context

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>>2523125

>>2523112

The guy had at least 10 years to get to it prior to that.

>>2523160
He shoulda had like 20 more

>>2523230

Perhaps he shouldn't have been such a monumental fuckup then?

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>>2523293
Perhaps you should shut up and show some respect to your King

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Edward...

Wish they all died in the fighting alongside the Anglo-Norman families so that England could finally be free of Plantagenet control.

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>>2523954

They did.

>>2524042
The Tudors were still a bastard offshoot of the Plantagenets albeit a very distant one.

The Wars of the Roses was the perfect opportunity for the English peasants, merchants, and other groups who were of non-Norman ancestry to finally overthrow and kill every descendant of the 1066 invaders.

I do concede that Richard III gets an unfair shake from history. I don't deify the man, but he isn't the proto-Nazi that Ian McKellen film likes to depict either.
His brief reign provided England with 2 invaluable contributions; having trials conducted in English and the precedent of public defenders for those who couldn't afford representation.

>>2524084
>Anon thinks the English peasants, merchants, and other groups who were of non-Norman ancestry.

>>2525852
There was quite a bit of intermarriage in the lower levels but the upper echelons were predominantly Norman and other continentals. Only 5% of marriages were with actual English; the vast majority Anglo-Saxon heiresses of the pre-1066 order.

Are English commoners that ducked that they didn't exterminate the families of Norman invaders? Most oppressed groups in history like the Balkan Christians ruthlessly murdered or drove out Turks and other Muslims when they gained independence.

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>it's a bunch of saxon commoners defend their norman masters instead of insisting on resurrecting house of cerdic

>>2525978
Was ther even a descendant of the House of Wessex left? Edgar Atheling was the legitimate heir to the throne in 1066; something which even William the Bastard knew and tried to neutralize. His niece married William's son Henry thus uniting the line of Rollo and the line of Cerdic.

The English people had plenty of opportunities to expel their Norman overlords like the Anarchy or even the Barons War. But the Bastard went ethnic cleansing in Northumbria after years of rebellion. English fyrdsmen were sent to France to fight against rebels; something that later generations would be doing with great relish.

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>>2526007

We're such fucking cucks, bro. We deserve to be shitskinned out of our own country

>>2522954

>Murdered his nephews one of which was the legitimate heir according to their Royal line of questionable legitimacy

Yeah he was a real stand up guy.
I'm not saying he was a bad King but he was a bad person. He went out like a champ though I'll give him that.

>>2523125

Fucking retard

>>2522947

doesn't matter in the end the Brits got French'd for the 2nd time in History

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>>2523303
Fuck the King.

John 18:37

Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

>>2525971
>Are English commoners that ducked that they didn't exterminate the families of Norman invaders? Most oppressed groups in history like the Balkan Christians ruthlessly murdered or drove out Turks and other Muslims when they gained independence.
The ruling classes convinced the peasants that their betters are suited for ruling and economic advancement. Why should they bother with such complicated matters.

This especially applies to the gentry. They started to make serious strides at the cost of the nobility and they felt that gentlemen didn't need to resort to liquidating the ruling class.

>>2526266

>murdered his nephews

Prove it.

In fact, for a start, prove they were murdered.

>>2522952
They won in the short term but in the long term they fucked up.

>>2526266
>implying any children of Elizabeth Woodville were legitimate
Try again Wood-Vile usurpers

◄ Matthew 10:27 ►
New International Version
What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.

>>2528641

>implying children by his lawful and church approved wife weren't legitimate

Try again you Richard the 3rd fanatic

>>2527756

He locked them in a tower and they were never seen again. You can use your bullshit semantics all you want but he took the actions that resulted in their death. KILLing them.

>>2529256

That is not proof, of either them being murdered on Richards order or them dying at all.

>>2529253

She wasnt his wife because he was already married.