Who the fuck invented smoking and thought it was a good idea?

>>2519395
Your mom.

lightning fragrant fauna on fire is something every culture has done. Tobacco just happens to be the big one, because nicotine.

humans have been foraging for hundreds of thousands of years and found a use for just about everything that comes out of the ground

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>>2519395
I don't know but it looks pretty cool and anyone who claims otherwise is a liar.

>>2519409
Only looks cool when done by upper class attractive people. Not so much when poor white trash does it.

t. poor white trash who smokes

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>>2519419
It adds to the grittiness. It's an aesthetic prop that adds to whatever demographic you're in.

>>2519395
You know in the last decades smoking is a scapegoat, right?

>>2519613
>right?
Right. Might.

>>2519613
What did he mean by this?

>>2519613
What? I KNOW smoking is shitty for you. I haven't had a cigarette in three months and my lungs already feel much better.

>>2519650
Suppose a 40 year old develops cancer. He goes to the doctor and the first question he's asked is if he smokes/smoked, the guy says I smoked for a year when I was young. BAM the doctor says the cigs caused the cancer.
No further investigation, no linking between unsaturated fat consume, etc...
Anti-tobacco campaigns are a way for the governments see how obeying are the people.

>>2519409
I always wonder, do they actually smoke tobacco on TV shows or it something else?

>>2519716
They now exclusively smoke herbal cigarettes. Actual tobacco has been banned because of workplace safety concerns.

>>2519395
Indigenous Americans. When the colonizers first encountered it they called it "drinking the smoke". Capitalist entrepreneurs are the ones who turned it into a mass industry of factory made cigarettes rolled with paper and before that cigars. Natives knew that if you smoked too much you wouldn't be able to run as much but otherwise used it for treating a variety of ailments and for rituals. Now the legitimacy of tobacco is overlooked over the modern demonization of it which came about because of the problems caused by its misuse.

>>2519704
Also look how the diet of americans changed since the 80s. A bunch of people decided it was better to increase the consumption of carbohydrates while decreasing the consumption of animal fat.
In a few years the increase of fatness on americans was already observed. In a few years an habit (of eating more meat) that lasted since humans started existing was changed in an entire "developed" country.

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Can someone explain why ALL cigarette brands have fucked up shit in them? What kind of monopolized economic structure resulted in it being literally impossible to buy pure untainted tobacco?

>>2519730
Yeah, they didn't smoke with filters and indians always spit while smoking (maybe to decrease the amount of tobacco in the mouth). Maybe the filters were added to actually fuck smokers?

>>2519743
Meanwhile marijuana and other drugs are so much more accepted... Logic.

>>2519736
>In a few years the increase of fatness on americans was already observed. In a few years an habit (of eating more meat) that lasted since humans started existing was changed in an entire "developed" country.

Nigga you full of shit, Americans ate more meat than anyone in the world for two hundred years. Europeans' diets were 90% grain until the early 20th century, there's a reason pellagra became an epidemic in Northern Italy when they switched from wheat to polenta.

>>2519743
Each individual process imparts its own flavors, keeps the leaves dry, and helps it burn when you finally open it and smoke it.

I once smoked a cigarette that was exposed to open air for a year when I was tripping acid. It tasted like smoking pencil shavings.

>>2519749
>Nigga you full of shit, Americans ate more meat than anyone in the world for two hundred years.
Until the 80s...

>>2519743
American spirits are supposedly all organic. Check them out.

>>2519745
They smoked with long pipes and maybe crude cigarettes rolled with tobacco leaves. They also had different kinds of strains and mixed it with various herbs. The adding of foam filters to cigarettes was a commercial motive for the appearance of a healthier smoking experience long after tobacco's ill effects had been confirmed.

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>>2519753
We just switched to white meat. (And still eat more beef than anyone.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_meat_consumption

>>2519815
I didn't know that. But in chicken there are much more unsaturated fat than on red meat.

>>2519754
>organic meme

enjoy shit output and expensive and inefficient pest management practices

>>2519859
What does that have to do with anything? He's talking about using tobacco, not growing it.

Pretty sure smoking has been around in one form or another since the discovery of fire.

>>2519613
Nice bait

>>2519748
Marijuana won't fucking kill you. I'm not saying it's 100% safe and that it'll cure HIV or anything like that (don't smoke it if you're under 21, don't smoke it if you're pregnant, don't smoke it if you have a family history of schizophrenia), but out of the popular drugs, it's by far the less deadly.

>>2522200
*least

>>2519395
because it looks cool, it's like you are doing something interesting and it makes other people want to try it. Like monkeys who imitate each other.

>>2519401
Probly same reason perfumes and shit were cool, get that stank BO smell off you. Also happens to get you high. The later commercial tobacco processing added more aromatics.

>>2519401
>fauna

>>2519395
>Smoke if you wanna
>Don't smoke if you don't wanna
>Respect children
>....
>Ok?

>>2519399
dubs confirm.

>>2519752
Goddamn cigarettes are so good on acid. I've gone through a pack and a half on some trips

>>2519395
Traditionally among native americans, tobacco was only smoked for religious purposes at communal ceremonies. This might have still been every night, though usually not. They usually smoked a more potent form of tobacco (rustica) that was psychoactive in high enough doses.

Nicotine is of course addictive, although the substance by itself is not really otherwise harmful. Can cause headaches and nausea in large doses if you have low tolerance, but that's about it.

It was colonial settlers who expanded its use.

>>2519743
Because 83.8% of all cigarettes are produced by just six companies.

As time went on, cigarette companies realized that they could put additives into cigarettes to make them better in some way. Smoother inhalation, flavorings, maybe a tingling in your airways, and of course increasing nicotine (which both increases the high and makes you even more addicted so you buy more cigarettes).

The problem arose in that

>Inhaling partially combusted hydrocarbons is fucking terrible and gives you lung cancer along with destroying your lungs.
>The compounds used for enhancement are toxic.
>Nicotine is toxic.
>The compounds used for enhancement are ESPECIALLY toxic when partially combusted and inhaled.

Now, why do they have a monopoly? Government collusion. The old adage of "Monopolies cannot exist in a free market" is absolutely true, which is why Tobacco companies work DAMN hard to make sure they NEVER compete in a free market. It's like why automobile companies pay out the nose to bribe congressmen to keep all sorts of stupid shit necessary for "safety", like digital compasses or backup cameras: It's a cost that the oligopolists*, can eat but smaller competition cannot. The only difference is that the they have gotten so large that they aren't confined to one country anymore. Instead of a free market, killing them would require free markets.

*The situation is a big fucky because China Tobacco accounts for 31.7% of the market share and they hold a government backed monopoly in China. Even foreign brands have to go through China Tobacco except in the case of premium foreign made cigarettes which are only 3% of cigarette sales in China. That's still 51 billion sales per year however. Ultimately what this means is that, not counting China Tobacco because it doesn't export to the US/Europe because their product is literal poison, FIVE companies control some ~80% of the tobacco market in the 1st world.

>>2519395
Well if you don't know or think its bad for you then there is no downside really. Other than addiction but tobacconists were literally everywhere.

>>2522297
Chinas fuck for it, they all smoke there, but they can't be doing too well in all the countries where every pack of smoking has a picture of black lungs screaming SMOKING KILLS

They must know they are in decline in Europe at least.

>>2522315
Those pictures do not affect smokers at all.

>>2519743
It's not true that ALL BRANDS have additives. There are additive free brands, and additive free options from the main brands.

American Spirit still uses pesticides to control their crops, like any grower, they are not organic. But the tobacco itself inside the cig (or pouch) has nothing else on it after being picked and dried.

I smoked Javaanse Jongens (hand rolled, the white pouch) for years. It's also an additive free brand. The white is the mildest one they have. I also smoked American Spirit before that. If I went back to a standard brand packaged cig, I swear you could taste a chemical note and I'd feel nauseous in a way I never did with additive-free cigs.

Of course, it's still gonna kill you. I quit a couple years ago. Still miss it sometimes, but if I smoke a spliff, then I still use a pinch of the same tobacco (I

>>2519754
Only the organic pack is actually organic. The rest are just additive-free during production.

>>2522315
>>2522328
The packs with the pictures does affect smokers and discourages smoking, but not because of the pictures. It's because the packs are otherwise blank and standardized. You don't get to pick out and enjoy seeing your favorite brand, you just have to feel it.

>>2522241
>tfw whenever smoking and kids walk by I hold my smoke in and my cig up
Except the fuckers that wanna rudely walk through the SMOKING SECTION and start a scene when I'm smoking. Fuck yall

>>2519419
This. I grew up poor, and most adults smoked; now I just associate smoking with trashiness.

The only people I ever hear that talk about how cool it is are edgy high schoolers and people who grew up in environments where not a lot of people smoked (usually middle class suburban people who just saw smoking in movies).

>>2522296
>Nicotine is of course addictive, although the substance by itself is not really otherwise harmful. Can cause headaches and nausea in large doses if you have low tolerance, but that's about it.
Nicotine is poisonous, just not enough to cause any real harm in doses you'd get from cigarettes.

>>2522402
thats true of basically anything though, that isn't really an argument against nicotine. Water's poisonous.

>>2519704
Go to bed Phillip Morris.

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>>2519745
Gave up smoking a long time ago, but I still remember pic related.

It's not "healthy" regardless of whether it causes cancer. Kills lungs like nothing else - I mean, sure, they grow back, but meantime you're still getting less oxygen than normal to your brain. I suppose if we lived in a world where strenuous physical activity was regularly a matter of life or death we wouldn't see a lotta folks smoking death sticks on a regular basis. Works alright in a sedentary society where you don't have to move much - but so does being a fat ass, and the number of unhealthy side effects aren't all that dissimilar.

it was invented by native americans but it was made popular by jews. Gotta milk them goy vices.

>>2523183
>The first explorers and colonists were jews

JIDF revisionism strikes again. Fuck off.

>>2523200
keep shilling them smokes jew, can't fool me.

>>2523205
anti-smoking is literally the biggest astro-turf ever.
The fact is smoking is over-estimated. Smoker lungs are just as viable for transplant.

>>2523217
you can't resist can you schlomo, I quit a year ago, can't trick me. I'm onto you.

>>2523224
you should vape though, Chaim want to legislate it out for cutting into both the cigarettes and their fees as well as other medical quit smoking products such as gums and patches. Vaping is less infiltrated.

>>2523233
Vaping helped me quit, now I just have a tiny cigar once a week if at all.

almost everyone needs some kind of vice but tobacco is fucking stupid, cigarettes barely do anything, it's just an infinite feedback loop of addiction feeding addition
other substances at least have notable effects but once you're hooked on cigarettes they serve no purpose other than looking cool and filling the need they themselves gave you

>>2523283
Smoking is pleasant and provides nicotine and comfort - they are perfectly fine reasons.

>>2523168
Smoker's lungs are used in transplants, so those lungs aren't that fucked up like we are meant to think.
Even though oxygen is required by aerobic cells (very "few" organisms have anaerobic cells) it is toxic. It causes aging and death of cells.
Tobacco and its components are stimulants just like coffee. I prefer having my brain working and being stimulated than to be able to do some percentage more of exercises than a non-smoker.

Also, why since people in general stopped smoking the cases of ashtma increase? Alzheimer and parkinson too.
About the current rate of 75% deaths due to heart conditions and cancer in USA they can be atributed to the increase of consumption of unsaturated fats and carbohydrates. Anyone else have another hypothesis?
Why more people are getting cancer while they are smoking less?

>>2523283
Define addiction.

>>2523370
You sound like a junky, I smoked for almost 15 years and it fucked my sinuses and lungs so hard. Grow up. Stop spinning magic tales about how nicotine "helps" you think. If you were smart you would quit and manage with a single cup of coffee each day.

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>>2522239
>he doesn't set deer and other animals on fire for fun

What are you some kind of fag?

The real question is: why does smoking look cool even though it's a phallic image? I agree that it makes one look more masculine, but in theory sucking on a little white stick should evoke the exact opposite image.

>>2523378
You are your own person, anon. Smoking comforts and helps some, harms and kills others.

C'est la vie.

>>2523410
You are just coming up with retarded rationalizations to keep your ass smoking. The reason more people get asthma and cancer as smoking becomes unpopular is because there is a bunch of smokers turning fucking 80 and dying. Jesus christ. My father in law is almost blind from fucking cataracts, he loves smoking. Just quit.

>>2523401
this is why female smoking was associated with prostitution or promiscuity for women. Solicitation is a large part of being smokers and that is the major reason there is a crackdown on the organic social formations that are else not allowed.

>>2523413
Why? I know what it does (I actually work in the pharmaceutical industry) and I still enjoy it. As long as my enjoyment of it harms no one else, so what?

>>2523447
Because some people actually care about others anon. I would tell you to suck on a shotgun smoothy, but I'm telling you to quit because I have actually seen what it does to people. I know a guy who is 52, he had to get the veins in his legs unclogged from fucking blood clots. Don't be a fucking gaymosexual.

>>2523447
Cigarette smoking has become the last vice people can universally criticize you for and get away with it for whatever reason.

>>2523482
Cigarettes are an absolute waste of money and your health. I understand a nice cigar and expresso once in a while but not 5 times a fucking day. I bet you wake up at 4 o'clock in the morning to piss and then go have a smoke. Get a vape you junkies.

>>2523491
Fuck off vapecuck, my body my rules

>>2523494
Everything they say about smoking is true, the only reason you aren't fucked yet is because you are young. Now is a great time to quit before you cuck up your shit. Fucking tabacco nigger. Just think of how much money is going to the government and jews just so you can kill yourself. Wake the fuck up.

>>2523499
Fuck off vapecuck, my body my rules.

>>2523502
Fuck off tabacco niggers, stop funding israel. Remember me in ten years when you can barely jack off without running out of breath.

Like the other anons said, before the thread got derailed by the Surgeon General. People have been smoking things since forever.

Hallucinogens have had a HUGE factor in human history, with shamanism and early religions. But yea it's crazy to think who was the first dumbfuck that picked through every plant in the jungle and lit it on fire till he found the best one that made him trip

>>2523499
Greece and japan and longevity and ashtrays. Granted there are several factors at play
>hereditary but race don't real
>overall lifestyle and fitness
>better filters
>better tobacco (ie polonium-free)
the whole virtue signalling of anti-smokers has cost so many lives by preventing the spread of less hazardous cigarettes. fact.

>>2523503
Fuck off vapecuck, my body my rules.

>>2523512
>>2523516
Little fucking tobacco babies, not man enough to quit.

>>2523523
"Manning up" is bullshit invented by feminists to convince men to die in foxholes countries while they fuck the mail man. My body my rules, vapecuck.

>>2523512
the kid is obviously in the D.A.R.E. section of his health class, he's too blue pilled to understand

>>2523527
I smoked for so long I know how it is. You are watching t.v. everything is cool. Buddy on t.v. lights up a smoke, suddenly you gotta have one too. You probably smoked like 4 smokes while we were talking in the last 10 minutes. STOP BEING ADDICTED NIGGER.

>wake up
>have a smoke
>take a shit
>have a smoke
>brush your teeth
>have a smoke
>drink some coffee
>have a smoke
>take a shit
>have a smoke
>wash your bum
>have a smoke
>do some laundry
>have a smoke
>waiting for phone call
>have a smoke
>in your car waiting for a fat slut
>have a smoke
>finish fucking
>have a smoke
>eat some food
>have a smoke

YOU ARE ADDICTED.

>>2523543
My body my rules vapecuck.

>>2523552
Then get a fucking vape ciggycuck, atleast it's healthier. You afraid you won't look cool because of some 4chun may may. Jesus christ, only little girls care about coolness.

>>2523558
My body my rules vapecuck, I will continue to smoke and you will continue to virtue signal about my health.

>>2523582
who the fuck am I virtue signalling to? It's a fucking dumb dirty habbit that costs way more than vaping. Vaping is superior in every way. Atleast fucking try it you retarded ass faggy homosexual.

What is this meme that smoking makes you look cool? I think it makes you look like white trash. Almost no one at my university smoked, and then being back in my hometown all the non-college townie people smoked constantly. Plus cigarettes just look like mass-produced poor people thing; cigars would be the cultured thing to smoke.

>>2523592
My body my rules, vapecuck.

>>2523609
With the vape you can choose your nicotine levels and slowly ween yourself off your fucking gay baby dick electronic dildo. I am telling you man, I wouldn't have quit unless I saw what it was doing to the people around me and my own fucking shit. Just try vaping for 1 week I guarantee you will enjoy it more.

I'm going to take a fat shit, and then wash my bum. I just shave off all my pubes and it's all sweaty and nasty. Good luck FAG.

>>2523617
My body my rules, vapecuck.

>>2519409
To be fair, anything Don Draper does is cool. Even when he's having an emotional breakdown he looks cool.

>>2522402
As the other anon said, almost anything in high enough doses is poisonous. The amount of nicotine in typical doses found in even an entire pack of cigs is itself not really harmful. It's like a more addictive caffeine.

What's harmful is all the chemical residues used in industrial tobacco, and of course all the combusted material you're inhaling when you burn it.

>>2523401
>why does smoking look cool
100 years of pervasive marketing. Cool is subjective.

>>2523491
>expresso
Kill yourself in the most gruesome way possible.

>>2523505
That assumes it was intentional. First time ever was probably accidental or incidental ingestion.

>>2523602
In America, sure.

In Europe and (from what I understand) Asia, the social classist dimension you mention doesn't exist.

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>>2523370
>Smoker's lungs are used in transplants, so those lungs aren't that fucked up like we are meant to think.
You're either a shill, or you've never smoked, or never quit for more than an hour. Seriously, it's fucking night and day. Once I quit for three days and realized, "Hey, it isn't normal to feel like shit all the time." I switched to vape and was off completely within six months. Fuck cigarettes.

Lungs heal fast, but all regular smokers have severely diminished lung capacity. You can literally measure how long it's been since their last cigarette that way.

Hell, my mum still has my dad's old S-spirometer (who didn't smoke, but died of pneumonia in his old age anyways, plus she has asthma so she still uses it). I check myself on it out of curiosity when I visit. My lung capacity went from 330(18) to 950(34) just after a week of not smoking. More importantly, I could actually get up in the morning proper again without five hours of warm up.

>Why more people are getting cancer while they are smoking less?
Pic related. I'm not even a big fan of the idea that smoking causes cancer - as it seems everything does (it's been proven water does, if you don't tell the lab what it is they are testing, even with a control group). But cancer rates, particularly lung cancer rates, are actually down. Most cancer rates have been going down for decades.

>>2519395
>thinking people only smoke because they like the feeling of smoke in their lungs or something
smoking has an actual effect, it relaxes you and makes you feel a little bit more sharp, it only lasts as long as the cigarette which is why chain-smoking is so common among smokers

>>2524988
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140227091247.htm
your organs are still get harvested even as a ex/smoker. They started using them due to sheer demand for lungs, finding out they have no less effect must have been something else.

>>2519401
>fauna

>>2523505
>derailed by the surgeon general
Topkek

>>2524988
You mean that trend of lung and bronchus was caused by smoking?
What about the polution of the industries before filters were mandatory?
What about the leaded fuel in which was only banned for road vehicles in USA in 1996 (the maxima of that curve is around there, really makes you thing...)?

Just like I said before, smoking is a scapegoat.

Explain to me how all the oldest people alive today smoked and are still alive if smoking is so bad.

>>2523413
>You are just coming up with retarded rationalizations to keep your ass smoking.
Let's not rationalize things and just believe the media, the governments, biased "scientific" studies. Cause we need them to take care of us. Oh my God, we aren't able to search for answers for ourselves.

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>>2523399
/k/ please

>>2519743
*Oligopoly

>>2519743
Not really. You're always going to have the problem of it burning due to it being a cigarette, and if it burns it creates tar, and tar will fuck up your lunges.
Your best bet is a bubble pipe.

>>2519395
Probably in the same way that someone thought it was a good idea to suck on cow tits.

>>2523370
Autism

>>2519395
t. straight edge faggot
smoking makes you feel good, you imbecile
it's not about looking cool.
seriously god damn pick up a pack of cigs and a bottle of liquor for once in your life and learn what you're talking about you dumb bitch

>>2525966
It's a shit tier drug, worse even than fucking booze in terms of harm/enjoyment ratio.

>>2525854
I'm not saying it's the only thing that diminishes lung capacity, but it most certainly does just that. I'm guessing you don't smoke, as I've never met a smoker who didn't know that intrinsically. If you do smoke - try quitting for three days, it's the difference between night and fucking day - or get a spirometer and quit for maybe six hours and measure the difference. Again, you can literally gauge the number of hours between cigarettes by lung capacity.

The lungs are still functioning, just not efficiently, and you can use them for transplant, I suppose. If you don't smoke they're 100% again within a few weeks, so I don't see the problem. Again, lung tissue heals hella fast, but it isn't as if smoking doesn't damage the fuck out of it.

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>>2523370
You're so fucked, kid

>>2525962
>>2527423
Let's not rationalize things and just believe the media, the governments, biased "scientific" studies. Cause we need them to take care of us. Oh my God, we aren't able to search for answers for ourselves.

>>2526029
drunkfag

>>2527590
Yes, there are rather sinister economic reasons that various organizations conspire to reduce tobacco use, and they aren't all that far removed from the same ones that make pot illegal.

That doesn't mean it isn't bad for you.

Keeping an open mind doesn't mean simply always de facto believing the opposite of what authority tells ya. They're more apt to sell a half-truth than a whole lie in anycase. Ignoring everything the government says wholesale, and doing the opposite, just for the sake of spiting them, is even more destructive than taking everything they say at face value.

They may have ulterior motives for telling you not to jump off a cliff, but even so, it's usually your best interest not do so anyways.

>>2522344
>Addiction to substances can be curbed by bland, uninspired marketing
No, if I want a cigarette, I'll buy the white pack with the word "Tobacco" and the picture of the wrotten teeth on it. It might work on non smokers though.

>>2519613
Flight. Sight?

Smoking is way cool

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>I'm not addicted
>I've just decided to sacrifice my lung capacity and general overall health for some minor temporary pleasure
>I can quit anytime I want, I just don't want to, that's all

>>2519395
>>>2519395
>Traditionally among native americans, tobacco was only smoked for religious purposes at communal ceremonies. This might have still been every night, though usually not. They usually smoked a more potent form of tobacco (rustica) that was psychoactive in high enough doses.
>
>Nicotine is of course addictive, although the substance by itself is not really otherwise harmful. Can cause headaches and nausea in large doses if you have low tolerance, but that's about it.
>
>It was colonial settlers who expanded its use.
Nicotine can kill you with like, 60mg, dude. One can harvest that from 2 packs of cigs.

Kinda sucks that vaping is a meme and it doesn't just look like normal cigs. I found it pretty relaxing to vape a bit. I see fedora types vaping on campus though, and I don't want to associate myself with them. I'll just do it in the privacy of my home.

>>2524988
What the fuck were people eating or drinking that stomach cancers were so high?

>>2529668
Please give me the figures for nicotine-caused deaths over the last 100 years.

>>2529635
I'm sure you realize that the same can be said for 100 other substances or behaviours, m8.

>>2519453
Nice shoes

>>2526029
this, just smoke weed not cigarettes.

>>2519395
Everyone needs a vice, smoking is a very effective one, it provides a routine, a time frame, it tastes nice and is relaxing and socialable. Even if you removed the nicotine from every cigarette on the planet, people would still smoke because it's generally a fun thing to do

It's about personal choice and freedom. If you're intending to get people to quit you're going about it the wrong way, regardless of how you try people are always going to do what they want to do.

I personally would rather stick to the devil I know, granted tobacco is harmful but the effects are well documented and the government, in the UK especially are taxing it to buggery and victimising all smokers.

I mean where does it stop? After we smokers are taxed to oblivion and demonised you don't think they will go after everything else? You vapers are next, then they will tax and vilify sugar and then coffee. Where does it end?

But building a taboo around a certain act is just going to encourage it's use even more, this is just human nature. Not to mention the fact that E-cigs are untested, their long term use effects have not been studied.

Although my friends that have switched over to vaping don't smell as bad, they get much more lung and throat based illnesses than regular old smokers do. It's not exactly a good thing but I wouldn't say it's completely evil either. There are worst vices to have.

>>2519395
Used o hate cigarettes and could barely smoke a full one without getting a huge head rush. Now I'm hooked on a pack a day.

>>2531949

>But building a taboo around a certain act is just going to encourage it's use even more

That's not really what we're seeing. There's a taboo around smoking right now and we're seeing more people quit and less people start.

>>2531973
Translation: I'm a fucking moron who willingly got addicted to a habit that will likely plague me for the rest of my life

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Idk man, I'm having a pretty good time lighting marijuana buds on fire in a pipe and inhaling the smoke right now as I type this.

>>2519395
I think its got something to do with not wanting to breathe properly, like S&M or just self punishment for something they can't forgive themselves for...

>>2533423
tell us more frued