Alexander & Temujin

>>2516596
Because Alexander was from a superior culture and brought civilization to inferior cultures. Temujin was from an inferior culture and dragged down the development of superior cultures

>>2516596
Because one is a white European, and the other one isn't.

>>2516605
Babylon and its surroundings were vastly superior to greeks.

>>2516605
/thread

>>2516605
>Egypt
>Mesopotamia
>Persia
>inferior cultures

ignorant /pol/turd detected.

>>2516611
Buttblasted Asiatic scum detected.

>>2516611
>Persia
>not barbarian at the time
Persian army literally consisted of slaves

If Alexander wasn't such a Western gentlemen 1% of the modern human population could have been related to him right now like khan.

>>2516619
>Macedonians
>not barbarians compared to real Greeks

>>2516611
While they were brilliant, Greek civilization and culture has been proven to be much more influential and longstanding.

>>2516605
>Temujin was from an inferior culture and dragged down the development of superior cultures

Not so superior then

>>2516596
because of racism

>>2516619
Slavery is literally forbidden by Zoroastrianism

The mongols pillaged cities, libraries, and destroyed to kill time

>>2516628
Name 1 good thing mongols brought to the conquered lands

>>2516626
Influential doesn't necessarily mean better

Just look at the world today

>>2516625
This.

Macedonia was irrelevant like Sparta in other areas aside from military. They were arguably less civilized than the Romans at the time even.

>>2516645
Anime

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>>2516626

>Influential

>Longstanding

Only because it was " revived " by 18th century LARPers who was obsessed with Greek civilzation and was convinced Muh ancestors built it

The ultimate WE WAZ

>>2516625
>Macedonia
>not hellenic
Culture was all that mattered at the time, many greeks from city-states looked up to Macedonia as a force to unite Greece and stop the infighting

>>2516652
It turned them into bodypillow-fucking weebs. Try again

>>2516655
Romans >>> M*cedonians

>>2516655

Macedonia was inhabited be Geek people right?

Why were they considered other?

>>2516665
fvck off

>>2516674
They got banned from the olympics at one point IIRC

>>2516654
Do you not realize the effect Platonism has in almost every modern religion?

>>2516674
They used to speak a different language and were uncultured barbarians compared to the rest of Greece.

>>2516674
Macedonians were originally not greek, they are a different tribe, they adopted hellenic culture later

>>2516682
If it wasn't for them uniting Greece, hellenic culture would eventually vanish, as the city-states would fall to an asiatic power sooner or later

>>2516682
>>2516683

So Macedonians were like a Greek equivalent of the Irish...

>>2516692
No. The Romans would come into picture later. Macedonians didn't do anything except establish a bunch of shitty kingdoms in the middle of nowhere.

Both are shit and both are liked in their countries.

>>2516699
In this scenario Romans would look at greece with disgust and convert them to their culture, as it is macedonians who made greek culture releveant

Iron Maiden made songs about both so they are both remembered as great men

>>2516619
They were levys from all over the empire. Not unified in culture , language or faith.

>>2516706
Romans were being Hellenized to varying degrees for centuries before they decided to venture into Greece. That's what a double dose of Etruscan and Magna Graecian influence will do.

>>2516596
The Middle East is full of barred lands bcause Temujin chimpout, thats why.

>>2516659
Sushi.

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>>2516645
Mongols invented firearms, bombs and other assorted explosives. All of that arrived in Europe through Mongol expansions.

Daily reminder that Alexander's imperial government collapsed instantly without him but Chinngis' system of taxes, trade policies, infrastructure programs, and adaptability of local government allowed his heirs to rule over the largest empire in history for nearly 200 years.

>>2516596

> Why is one remembered as great, and the other as horrible?

Because Alexander killed like 1 million people and the Mongols wiped out 40 million.

Alexander is judged by his sack and enslavement of Tyre or the burning of Persepolis, yet that was the average Tuesday for the Mongols.

They were like locusts, barely human.


>>2517111

> Mongols invented

lol no, they took it.

>>2517130
Wrong. Alexander's Empire was divided up among the diadochoi and survived for centuries after that.

And it's not about longevity, if it were then Chinese art would be the best in the world. When in reality it's pure shit.

>>2516654
>LARPers

Asian American femboy detected

- Roman Law.
- Trivium/Quadrivium system of education.
- Latin being lingua franca of the West for millenia.
- Roman Catholicism.
- Western Philosophy.
- Greco-Roman art and architecture.

I could go on and on Chang. Just put the damn wig and dress on.

>>2516605
>inferior culture
Persians didn't fuck boys until Islam, greeks did it since forever

>>2517268
>Superior culture
>Being so orientalized that supplicants aren't allowed to openly breath in front of the Padishah.

lol

Perspective.

I assure you Genghis Khan is still revered in Mongolia.

>>2517294

And Turkey

>>2517130
Alexander didn't have any (notable) children but Khan spread his seed and thus kept the empire in the hands of his family. Alexander's empire was split amongst his generals.

>>2517268
Persians also didn't have a notable philosopher, scientist, mathematician, or artist to speak of. Greeks had them since forever.

>>2517307
Blown the FUCK out.

>>2517307

Almost all of the "Islamic Golden Age" philosophers, mathematicans and artists were persians.

>>2517317
>post-Alexander
>post Islam
Exactly my point.

>>2517307
Didn't have, or didn't record? Big difference.

You have to remember that all this history was recorded by the Greeks, and that's pretty much all we have. There are very few primary resources from ancient Persia, it's all Greek.

>>2517325
>and that's pretty much all we have.

Recorded middle eastern history is much older.

>>2517325
If Persians didn't even record their own history, that automatically deducts major points from them being a "superior culture" to the Greeks.

>>2517304

>progeny are what sustains empires and not institutions

Congrats on drinking imperial coolaide.

I bet you think Zeus is the reason it rains

>>2517345
Didn't record, or didn't survive? Big difference.

>>2517229
>Alexander
>Spreading Roman law
>Spreading Latin
>Roman Catholicism
>Western philosophy

>I'm obviously full of shit but if I insult the masculinity of this other poster I can distract everyone from how retarded I am

>>2517342
Not from the Acheamenid Persians.

>>2517111
Mongols invented shit. They were thieves that looted and murdered, similar to Arabs and Turks

>>2517351
It's impossible for nothing at all to survive, especially not if it was even remotely influential. The closest we get to Persian philosophers pre-Islam are those who tried to reform Zoroastrianism again and again.

>>2517348

Ogedei, Guyug and Möngke ruled all of the empire even after Genghis Khans death and if Kublai didn't settle down in China they would have another Great Khan.

>>2517353
He said the influence of classical civilization was a LARP, I proved it wasn't.

>>2516622
>Western gentlemen

Is that what they call being gay now?

>>2516611
>egypt
>pile rocks on top of each other to worship a man claiming to be god

>mesopotamia
>get forcibly cucked by a man claiming to be god

>persia
>become a soldier to protect a man claiming to be god

>athenes
>democracy, philosophy, mathematics, drama, painting, sculpture

>>2517470

If greeks were so great then how come that they were one of the first nations to mass convert to a semitic religion that said jews are the chosen without a fight?

>>2517497
Jewish mindtricks are more powerful than western democracy.

Just look at the united states.

>>2517345
>>2517342
>>2517325
Persians did have records but they mostly focused on results rather than details or feelings.

Persians wrote history like a sports teams season record. Accurate but simple,boring, and dry.

Greeks wrote history like an athlete's autobiography. Very exciting because it's filled with drama and gossip, but it can be incredibly biased and sometimes unreliable.

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>>2517111
>mongols
>inventing anything

the civilization you're looking for is China. In any case the mongols were less civilized than all 3 major groups they fought (europeans, muslims, and chinese) all of which were sedentary people's being invaded by nomadic savages.

>>2517516

And Alexander invaded the cradle of civilization (middle east) and put hundreds of thousands people into slavery.

Wow really makes you think.

>>2517111
LOL

>>2517523
Alexander invaded as the superior culture instilling superior values. This type of conquered is always well-liked by history in comparison to the type of conquerer who comes in with an inferior civilization and destroys the achievements of the superior culture. See: muslim conquests, horsefucker conquests, barbarian invasions of Rome, etc.

If you can't see the difference you're an idiot.

>>2517548
>superior culture

Greece wasn't superior to the middle east lol.
The middle east was superior to that hilly terrain and a collection of islands that calls itself Greece.

Writing was developed in the middle east.
The first mathematics were developed in the middle east (Egypt)
The first human rights were developed in the middle east. (Cyrus Cylinder)
The first fucking empire in the world was in the middle east (Akkadian Empire)

The only thing that Boyfuckers did better then them at the time was conquering and thats it.

Alexander:
>patron artists, poets, and philosophers
>restored Cyrus' tomb
>respected his subjects and adopted their traditions
>was open-minded, when he reached the Indus he picked up a bunch of Brahmin into his posse.
>treated Darius' mother and wife with intense suspect, that the former referred to him as son and cried upon his death
>forced Scytho-niggers into centrally planned cities, bringing civilization to the area without whiping them out
>was a hero to his troops, often being in the front lines and leading charges motivating them

Ghangis Khan
>just killed a lot of people without building anything in return
>despite collecting taxes, there's nothing notable in his home province that shows he ever built it up substantially.

>>2517572
>The first human rights were developed in the middle east. (Cyrus Cylinder)

>The Cylinder gained new prominence in the late 1960s when the last Shah of Iran called it "the world's first charter of human rights".
>The Cyrus Cylinder was dubbed the "first declaration of human rights" by the pre-Revolution Iranian government,[95]

Nice try, Mahmud.

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Genghis Khan wasn't even the reason his tribe did so well.

>>2517604

Make me some Yoghurt and Tzaziki, mr. Aristoteles Papadopolous Megos.

>>2517609

Jebe Muwali and Subutai were put into their positions by Genghis, who knows where they would be without him.

>>2517572
not that guy
but just because a civilization was great and powerful at one time doesn't mean they'll be the best forever. Almost every major civilazation had their capital sacked at one point or another.

By the time Alexander came around the Persian empire was a shrinking shell of itself and suffering from internal revolutions and power struggles. The Macedonians had just conquered and united Greece with the most advanced and well trained military of that time. Philip and Alexander were both great military commanders and inspiring fair leaders to the people they conquered. While Darius III wasn't that great of a warrior and was hated by the people on the fringes of his empire.

Superior is a strong word but Macedonia was rising while Persia was falling.

>>2517572
>Writing was developed in the middle east.
And it wasn't used to write anything meaningful other than documenting tales / hymns at palaces and diplomatic treaties. Meanwhile only China and India can only rival Greece's literary tradition, but they also pale to the variety that Greece had and the fact that most of the shit (outside of hymns of-course) were just preserved and written out of individual interests, and not some King's court or by clergy.
>The first mathematics were developed in the middle east (Egypt)
And nothing notable besides for baby-tier mathematics that showed up independently elsewhere was developed there.

>The first human rights were developed in the middle east. (Cyrus Cylinder)
Propaganda. Cyrus cylinder doesn't contain such, you're just reiterating a myth pushed by the Shah to ward off allegations of human rights abuse: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/falling-for-ancient-propaganda-un-treasure-honors-persian-despot-a-566027.html
>The first fucking empire in the world was in the middle east (Akkadian Empire)
and nothing notable came out of it with no lasting legacy. Akkad was completely forgotten until cuneiform was deciphered and Mesopotamia was anthropologically investigated.

>>2517619
>an Iranian craving superior Hellenic culture
lmao an age-old tradition

>>2517632
>Greece's literary tradition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

>the literary history of Gilgamesh begins with five Sumerian poems about 'Bilgamesh' (Sumerian for 'Gilgamesh'), king of Uruk, dating from the Third Dynasty of Ur (circa 2100 BC).

>And nothing notable besides for baby-tier mathematics that showed up independently elsewhere was developed there.

They laid the foundations, greeks just took and improved it, if i remember right there was some egyptian Pharaoh that contributed to the building of Athens.

>and nothing notable came out of it with no lasting legacy.

Nothing notable came out of Greek states created by Alexanders generals in Asia.

/his/torians like to wank about the importance and contributions of Greco-Bactrians kingdoms and alike and yet if you ask asians who live in those areas they don't know what the fuck they were, they only remember Alexander, but they have no problem explaining who the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians and Persians were.


>MUH GREEK STATES ARE REMEMBERED BY EVERYONE!

Except they aren't kek!

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>>2517639

>We wuz PHILOSOPHERS, MATHEMATICIANS AND ALEXANDERS!

But today we are the slaves of the EU and the Turks and we only make Yoghurt and Tzaziki now.

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>>2517717
>We wuz ZOROASTRIANS, CONQUERORS AND CYRUSES!

But today we are the slaves of the Islamic Republic and the Arabs and we only make pilaf and kebab now.

>>2517693
you keep dodging the issue but the fact remains that at the time of the conquest, all of those scholastic achievements had already been topped by the greeks regardless of who did what first, so there's no getting around the fact that when Alexander invaded, he brought superior culture. Not to mention he's the literal proto-enlightened despot, showing cultural tolerance, open-mindedness, and the type of behavior that all future great men would be compared to and aspire to. Ghengis Khan is your typical villain of history, destroying cities, genociding millions of people, and contributing nothing but the addition of tax collectors to harass the people.

The two men are polar opposites as far as how they treated their enemies, whether or not they improved or ruined the civilizations before them, and how long their influence lasted. Alexander's empire may have split up but they were all still macedonian-style kingdoms heavily inspired and influenced by Alexander's original conquest. Alexander would lay the foundation for both European and Persian cultures for hundreds of years, whereas the Khan brought the black plague, destroyed countless historical cities, libraries, and monuments, and was shortly overthrown and pushed to the dust bin of history. The mongols would influence virtually nothing. The cultures they destroyed merely got back up and kept doing things their way, and mongol culture retreated back to the steppes where they would be conquered by Russian gunpowder armies and never again have any influence over world affairs. Mongol influence lasted maybe a couple generations, alexander's influence lasted hundreds of years until it was replaced by roman influence, which in itself was inspired by alexander. All the great roman generals looked back and wanted to be the next Alexander. Even Persians looked back on him with envy and respect. You don't see the Egyptians changing the name of alexandria for instance, they know how important he was to them.

>>2516645
Freedom of religion.
Banned kidnapping woman.

Sometimes I like to wake up in the morning and just
yell at Persians on the internet

>>2516605
Because western tradition is still dominant. Mongol tradition isn't anymore.
I suppose Khan was a bit cruder, that may also account for it. Who caused more suffering? I'm pretty sure it's Khan but would love a source on it.

>>2516605
>Macedonia
>Superior to anything other than Thracians

>>2518068
Alexander was raised by Aristotle. He was about as "Macedonian" as FYROM.

>>2518049
>persians
>having internet

>>2518085
>Aristotle
>Anything other than a Barbarian

Also

>Aristotle
>Anything other than an invention by the Romans

>>2516606
>>2516629

This. The answer is really simple; racism. Racism permeates our society, social structure and history. Our imperialist eurocentric view of history basically says that white guys are the best thing every and everyone else are barbaric savages.

>>2518097
>humans
>having internet

>>2516645
Diplomatic immunity

>>2518168
>khan and Alexander even come close to similarity
Liberals are historically retarded.

>>2517370

>lol I said it again

I bet you think Tengri leveled the Steppe and milked the first horse

>>2518068
Don't trigger the Bulgarians

>>2517470
Those were Athenian accomplishments, not Greek. There wasn't a "Greek Culture" because all the Greeks did was fight each other.

>>2518352
yeah but so are conservatives. Anyone that tries to look at history through a partisan lense is going to make wild stupid claims like that because it fits their "whites are the devil" thesis. It's just as retarded when /pol/ shits try to streamline history through their reactionary lense.

>>2516619
They were conscripts, they weren't actually owned by the government their whole lives like a slave.


Pretty sure Western nations did this all the time.

>>2518634
Notice how I listed athens, not greece.

Also while I agree with you, Athens still had the strongest influence among city states.

>>2516635
Slavery of fellow Zoroastrians is forbidden, not slavery in general.
You people always love to leave that part out don't you.

>>2516608
>Greeks
nice b8
Babylonians never developed anything near the High Culture of the Nordic Hellenes.
>>2518061
Mongols have sought to become more Western, Westerners have never sought become more Mongol.
>>2517307
Yes
>>2517268
>le pedo greks
No evidence.
>>2516628
>I can smear shit on your art
>guess it wasn't really art after
>>2516611
>Easterners have always outnumbered Westerners
>Easterners still can't compete with Westerners in any field

>>2518642
and Alexander showed them a professional military and they improved through his example just like everyone else. Yet another example of superior cultural traits from the greeks taking hold anywhere that rational people held power, because when it comes to law, military structure, and the business of empire, alexander had it all and everywhere he went was better for it.

>>2518662
>everywhere he went was better for it
India, the poos encountered Superiority at every turn yet they did not learn from the mighty Nordic Macedonians.

>>2516645
Forests bloomed due to a decline in farmland, and the Mongols enforced strict rules when it came to hunting, meaning animal populations also flourished.

>>2518669
they got beat in no major battles and even gave the indians some historic defeats, it was the morale of the Macedonian army that faultered, not the strategy or tactics. If they had somehow invaded India at the beginning when morale was still high, alexander would have steamrolled the Indians just like he did everyone else. They survived only by nature of being last, because after conquering the known world the Macedonian ranks wanted to go home. Indians literally will never be relevant again until they're colonized.

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>>2518658
>Nordic Hellenes

WIR

>>2517368
>It's impossible for nothing at all to survive

It could be possible, considering all the destruction that occurred by the Arabs and Mongols.

>When the Persian capital of Ctesiphon in province of Khvârvarân (today known as Iraq) fell to the Muslims during the Islamic conquest of Persia in 637 under the military command of Sa'ad ibn Abi Waqqas during the caliphate of Umar, the palaces and their archives were burned. According to an account in Tarikh al-Tabari by Al-Tabari, the Arab Commander Sa'ad ibn Abi Waqqas wrote to Caliph Umar ibn al-Khatta-b asking what should be done with the books at Ctesiphon. Umar wrote back: "If the books contradict the Qur'an, they are blasphemous. On the other hand, if they are in agreement, they are not needed, as for us Qur'an is sufficient."[23] Thus, the huge library was destroyed and the books, the product of the generations of Persian scientists and scholars were thrown into fire or the Euphrates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Zoroastrians#Rashidun_Caliphs_.28642.E2.80.93661_CE.29

>>2518352
You're the retard if you think they aren't similar. The only thing Genghis did differently was scale.

>>2517229

You can't deny that Classical civilization was "revived" on a sense. The only thing that was a continuation is Roman Christianity but I'm not sure you can call it classical.

You Europoors forgot who even built Roman baths and stuff in the UK. You thought giants built them

If it wasn't for Arabs recording Greek culture and y'all reviving it later on it would be non existent

>>2517307

It's not that Greeks were some kind of genius.

It's just Greek philosophers scientists are most famous because of Eurocentric education and Western dominance.

I mean look at fucking Greece today. Do they look genius to you? And to be honest I think Greece is more similar to the near East than Western Europe

>>2516628
Stronger doesnt always mean superior. What are you a fucking baboon?

>>2517572
>t. Achmed Abdul

>>2518992

What other philosophers and scientists were there in the ancient period, barring those from maybe China?

>>2516596
Lol do you even know what Ghengis Khan means. It basically is the great. There is reason most people dont know Temujin as Temujin rather they know him as Ghengis Khan or the Khan of Khans (King of Kings, the Greatest of the Khans etc.)

>>2519138
The thing is we lost most of the history of those things.

Pythagoras did not invent the Pythagorean theorem. He simply noted it down.

The Pythagorean theorem was well-known to the mathematicians of the First Babylonian Dynasty in 20th to 16th centuries BC.

>>2516698
No they are Greek do not fall for the FYRO*'s tricks

>>2516596
Alexander was a world class cunt, but he was still a trillion times more reasonable than Temujin.

>>2518949
>Scale doesn't matter

>>2519705
As far as conquerors go, he really wasn't too bad. So yeah he was still kind of a cunt but not as big of a cunt as he could have been.

>>2518168
>Euros putting an emphasis on their own history is racist
Fuck off leftie, if you want a Sino-Centric version of history then fucking read a Chinese-made history book. I don't know why white people always have to take everyone else into consideration all the time.

>>2519022
A superior culture would find ways to defend itself

>>2516596
Because Alexander died young and his empire immediately broke up. It never went through the period of brutality and inefficiency that eventually drags down all massive multicultural empires.

>Alexander
>Fucked boipussy
>Temujin
>By the time he was an adult, he had united his nation
checkmate mediterraneanfags

Both were great idunno what you're talking about

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>>2518658

>No evidence.

Western revisionism:

>No, Alexander totally didn't fuck Hephaistion, it was all a myth!

Yeah just look it at all those children he had with different women.... oh wait!

>>Easterners still can't compete with Westerners in any field

How about the Cucking field? Unlike you we are not taking part in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6VFAnwHvyI


>Nordic Hellenes.

Muh Nordic hellenes that can't even rule their own women and will become a minority in their own country

So this is the power of the west? Im literally shaking right now.

>>2517298
And Finland.

>>2516608
Alexander's empire after his death embraced Hellenistic culture and nowadays all middle eastern cultures are influenced by it about the same way the west is influenced by Rome.

more than you can say about the 19th century empires who merely say they're superior because they are stronger despite every other culture trying to do away with it.

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>>2516645

>>2520299
I just want you to know that whenever I sleep with Chinese women, I think of angsty, mad Asian American """""men""""" like you.

However much you want to shitpost, the sad truth is that your own women find us more attractive than they find you.

>>2517693
The Epic of Gilgamesh is shit-tier compared to Homer and Virgil's epic traditions. Not even joking, you can read the Odyssey today and still be enthralled by the characters and Odysseus' overall arc as he heads home - The Epic of Gilgamesh by contrast is just plain boring. Hence why it hasn't shaped literature to the same degree.

>>2517693
>Nothing notable came out of Greek states created by Alexanders generals in Asia.

They literally invented the artistic aesthetics of Buddhism you dumb faggot. The influence of Alexander's conquests and diadochoi spreads as far as fucking Japan.

>>2517572
>The middle east was superior to that hilly terrain and a collection of islands that calls itself Greece.

The fact Greece wasn't a river civilization yet still developed such advanced culture is to its credit dumbass. Yeah, Greece is a materially poor, mountainous as fuck country - yet they still managed to outperform you in every cultural way that matters and then BTFO you so bad (not once, not twice, but three fucking times) that you never really recovered and ended up being cucks to the Arabs.

>>2517510
Greeks wrote both (annalistic court records and narrative histories). We don't have any record of annalistic style histories from the Persians.

>>2521766
The Epic of Gilgamesh wasn't even translated until the late 1800s lol we've had the odyssey forever

>>2516606
>Macedonians
>white

>>2521812
I think what he's trying to say is that it's a boring story, which it is.

>>2522191
not really, part of the issue is that some of the meaning and symbolism of the creatures in the second half has been lost along with part of the story simply being lost

one is /ourguy/ the other is not

>>2519843
>implying there's anything wrong with the companionate love between a man and his loyal (boy)friend

>>2516606
>>2518168
greeks weren't white you fucking barbarian