How did everyone suddenly get so much dumber during the Dark Ages?

Jews among the populations putting flouide non the wells

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Yes, just look at this atrocity. Truly horrible. The based Romans would never have drawn something so ugly and vulgar.

>>2514224

I didn't even mention christianity though?

>>2514230

>Altichiero

I said dark ages.

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>>2514230
Truly terrible. Blegh. Ugliness personified.

>>2514215
>How did everyone suddenly get so much dumber during the Dark Ages?
Unpopular opinion :brief decline of Christianity and proto-Western culture due to an influx of heathen barbarians.
Vargs need not reply.

>>2514242

I said dark ages. Show me one from the tenth century.

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>>2514230
>>2514242
Now look at this BASED ROMAN MASTERWORK. Brimming with layers upon layers of physical and subtextual nuance. Truly a masterpiece. Why were medieval artists so bad by comparison?

>>2514246
The Germanics were well Christianized at the time.

>>2514215
OP, economic decline lead to less people pimping their walls out with adornments. As these things were spread purely through master-apprentice relationships, and the masters would only take apprentices during times of economic prosperity, a period of economic decline lead to less apprentices until eventually the trade just died off.

Roman Britain ground to a halt at one point because there was literally no one to build new buildings via Roman methods, let alone make sculptures and frescoes.

>>2514241
>>2514248
Not that guy but I'm not even sure what argument you're trying to make. Are you trying to say that people in the early middle ages were dumber because they preferred stylised art?

De urbanization

>>2514249
Yes, because that's a mediocre painting on a middle class house in Pompeii whereas the other two are some of the finest pieces of their time and were commissioned by wealthy religious leaders.

You're the kind of person that uses "kitsch" thinking it means anything, aren't you?

>>2514249

It's still better than art from the dark ages. Having a large penis doesn't make it a bad picture. The body aside from the penis actually looks like a person as opposed to the brain damaged three year crayon scribble looking people in dark ages manuscripts.

>>2514215
They didn't get dumber, Rome fell.

Basically the smartest guy in the room who got everything done and solved problems dropped dead. Everyone else was left trying to figure out how the fuck he did what he did.

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Well they were smart enough to build this

>>2514242
That actually is pretty ugly though

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>>2514280
A lot of the current structure such as the cupula doesn't date from Charlemagne's time. Early churches didn't look very good compared to Greco-Roman architecture.

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Is this another one of those "my entire exposure to early medieval art consists of meme pages on Facebook and also all non-realist art is ugly" threads?

>>2514321
>it's another "contrarian defends shitty Medieval art and claims that it was intentionally bad" episode
They literally did not understand perspective. Byzantine artists weren't intentionally painting non-naturalistically, it was literally the best they could do.

There's a reason they call it "the Renaissance".

>>2514321
This.

Also many seem to not understand or simply ignore the reason many paintings where done this way.

Most the artists of the dark ages where monks. Early Christians took the "no graven image" thing very seriously, so they used this flat style as a way around that rule and to keep their heads attached to their shoulders.

>>2514336
see
>>2514341

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>>2514321
>this is the best Christcucks can do
>it looks worse than some regular Pompeii fresco

Sad.

Note that a lot of Roman art is stylized as well, yet it doesn't look like shit.

>>2514341
So they intentionally shat on and ignored Greco-Roman artistic culture?

Gotcha.

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>>2514341
Also remember that illuminated manuscript originally was something decorated with gold and silver. To get the best use out of the materials you're going to want to go for art that's simple and stylised, easy to draw and hard to make mistakes with, but still conveying the meaning of the literature as best you can.

>>2514215
Less of a focus on Arts.

>>2514336
You're putting words in my mouth my guy.

All I'm saying is that art doesn't need to be naturalist to be good.

For example look at the Saturn Devouring His Son painted by Paul Peter Rubens and by Francisco Goya. Rubens' is unquestionably a more technically proficient work but I don't think anyone would prefer it to Goya's, or claim that it's better than Goya's because it looks more realistic.

>>2514357
Their paintings were still shit though.

>>2514355
Yes they did, not because they didn't admire it or want to try something similar, but because it could cost them their lives, many monks where killed for simply trying to translate "pagan" texts.

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>>2514378
Is this shit to you?

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How did everyone suddenly get so much dumber during the XXth century?

>>2514377
There's a difference between

>It's shit because I meant it that way to convey x, y, and z

and

>It's shit because I literally cannot paint in any other way

>>2514280
You mean smart enough to hire Byzantines to build that for them.

The Moors weren't dumb during that time.

>>2514395
>writing big letters is an artistic accomplishment

>>2514434
now you are just being silly.

>>2514352
I see no difference

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>>2514434
Anon please, you are being obtuse

Just look at the breathtaking detail in one small part of it

>>2514276
>Having a large penis doesn't make it a bad picture.
No the unrealistic proportions, lack of perspective, and poor grasp of anatomy make it a bad picture.

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>>2514215
>>2514230
>>2514242
>>2514249
>OP makes a bait thread and then manufactures replies to argue what he truly believes
Better luck next time.

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>>2514406
not him, but he does have a point: take this sculpture of Akhenaten as a less extreme anecdote: he didn't actually look this feminized, he deliberately had his proportions skewed to make him seen more feminine and symbolize a blending of both genders.

Whether you think it's degeneracy or a historical repressed tranny, what remains undeniable is that they had the means of generating a more realistic sculpture, they simply chose not to make it and preferred something more stylized.

Also, generating good art before the modern era was a question of patronage: if you had a rich sugar daddy who paid you to exist and make art, then you had access to more money, and larger and more impressive artistic projects could be commissioned. Less rich people = less art being commissioned, while the only ones making it on their own were clergy illustrations.

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"This illumination of St Dunstan is not trying to depict him realistically. To begin with, Dunstan is not likely to have sat as his desk to work on a book while wearing his full bishop's regalia, complete with his mitre on his head. He's depicted this way to tell the reader who he is. Nor would he have been writing on a bound book - it's depcicted that way to indicate that he was the author of a famous book. And the book's pages are turned to the viewer so that the text can be read. This is to show that the book in question is his Commentary on the Rule of St Benedict. The emphasis of the picture is on who the figure is and why he is important, not on realism."

t. Tim O'Neill

>>2514465
Already been addressed, see >>2514266

>>2514491
I'm not saying that something has to be realistic to be good, or that stylization is bad. What I'm saying is that there is a difference between Akhenaten (In your example) choosing to look like one of the Bogdanoff twins because it was a different artistic technique and pre-renaissance medieval art where the artist simply did not have the techniques necessary to do anything else.

Akhenaten had a choice as to what style is depictions came out as, and how Duccio (for example) painted.

>>2514465
>Medieval art isn't shit, they just deliberately chose to not draw naturalistically
>lol this Roman painting is shit because it's not realistic and the proportions are all fucked up
Fucking pick one.

>>2514491
Not to mention a lot of the "bad art" in question is marginalia that's literally the size of a postage stamp.

>hurr durr I don't understand why it's not as detailed as a giant mural some Roman had painted on a wall in his brothel stoopid medieval monks can't draw.

>>2514517
I'm just saying if you're going to call the Medieval piece shit because it's not drawn realistically there's no reason to pretend that the Roman painting with the same problems is some how better just because it's Roman.

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Just to illustrate that stylisation could be a deliberate choice and isn't done because the artists didn't know any better or didn't understand complex artistic techniques:

These are both depictions of the four authors of the Gospels, one being from Germany and one being from Ireland, both being from the 9th century.

Could you say one is definitively better than the other, without it coming down to personal taste? Would you say the German illustration is better than the Irish one because it's more realistic?

>>2514559
I can see a German monk looking at the Irish one and thinking
>pagan """"""""""""art"""""""""""""

>>2514559

>Could you say one is definitively better than the other

Yes.

>Would you say the German illustration is better than the Irish one because it's more realistic?

Yes.

I don't get this "stylistic" meme. It's not like they came up with some cool altered state of reality to depict art with like Van Gogh did. They just drew really bad, flat stick figure looking people. It looks like the sort of drawings children make where you can tell their concept of what a human face looks like is just a circle with two circle eyes, an L shape for the nose, and a line for the mouth.

>>2514470

I didn't write those posts and I don't believe people living in the dark ages were actually intelligent. Those posts don't even make sense since the two examples he gave for "dark ages" art are from well after the dark ages.

>>2514704
>I don't get this "stylistic" meme
I think I have an idea why but I don't want to be crass and point out your specific mental quirk.

>>2514724

>if you can't appreciate bad art as though it were good it's because you're autistic

OK.

>>2514559
>potatonigger scribbles are as good as beautiful German art
Lmao

>>2514704
>>Would you say the German illustration is better than the Irish one because it's more realistic?
>Yes.
...why?

>>2514738

>because it's more realistic

You literally quoted the reason already.

>>2514704
read an art history book you philistine

>>2514745

>indoctrinate yourself with my cultural relativism propaganda, goy

No thanks.

>>2514730
Already diagnosed, boy?

>>2514745
>you're not allowed to have subjective personal preferences goy, because it's not objective

>>2514767

I'm mentally healthy desu. I don't think a literal autist would be able to pick up on your implied armchair diagnosis.

>>2514215
They thought that Christianity was the only learning they needed. Science was largely forgotten.

>>2514830
I hope your shitposting.

>>2514215
Christianity caused them to stop believing in science.

>>2514848
>>2514830
poor bait

>>2514830
>>2514848
so this...is the power...of shitposting...

>>2514738

Look, the entire purpose of art is to reproduce the physical world with as much accuracy as possible. It's not about "deeper truths" or "non-representational concepts" or whatever incoherent nonsense you want to attach to it.

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>>2514215
Crackpot theory alert:
Because "Antiquity" never existed.
The Middle Ages were literally the start of human civilization.
That "ancient" art was made during the Renaissance and falsely attributed to an earlier age.

>>2514215
Rome collapsed and all relevant art from the period comes from regions that were formerly barbarian. It's not like all those people would have been able to inherit all the intellectual and artistic development of the classical age overnight.

>>2515510
Holy shit do you actually think that?

>>2515544
Wait you're saying a post-apocalyptic society won't be immediately capable of the same level of sophistication it enjoyed before the collapse?
Uncanny!

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>>2515544
It took too long for art to start looking good again though. The Italians would only give us sculptures and paintings on par or better than Roman ones almost 1000 years later. The only thing that really improved was architecture around the mid middle ages.

>>2515543
You know I would read his theory if it wasn't thousands of pages long.

>>2515800
>romans weren't whi-

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>>2515807
ayooo hol up

>>2514280
Is Aachen a good place to visit as a tourist interested in history?

>>2514215

they werent dumb, they were just going through their post-modern period you stupid loser!

>>2514453
My God these monks had a lot of time on their hands!

>>2514830
GIBBON SKRONG!

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When did Byzantine figures start to look like they're made out of fucking wood?
Early on it was just a somewhat cartoonier continuation of Greco-Roman painting.

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>>2517515
Christcuckery kills artistic talent. The same thing happened with Roman sculptures. They started looking weirder and weirder as Rome became Christian over time.

>>2514215
Unchecked immigration diluted the population centers, persecuted the educated classes, and rejected the culture of learning and experimentation.

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there was a massive war that caused the dark.
we lost , earth stood ageist yahwh and was torn asunder when he talked mosses into betraying us.
all history ever after has been lies.

>>2517580
>Unchecked immigration diluted the population centers
Population centres were not "dilluted", they were dilluted during the height of empire. Cities were abandoned in favor of rural life.

Or wait, was it a Subtle /pol/-bait?

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>>2517536
>Christcuckery kills artistic talent
???

Also there was plenty of stylised artwork made during Rome's pagan years and plenty of realistic artwork made during their Christian years. Try reading a book on Roman art history.

>>2517615
The Renaissance produced better art because it was influenced by pagan traditions.

>>2517620
Which pagan traditions would those be

how did 4chan suddenly get so much dumber when /his/ was created?

>>2517625
sculpture

>>2517629
sculpture

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>>2517648
>the concept of sculpture was a pagan tradition
Fucking what

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>>2517648
Are you seriously claiming medieval Christians didn't sculpt

>>2514215
It's not about dumber. It's about people not having the cash to waste throwing at cultural achievements.

>>2517662
>>2517667
Do you think that sculpture has anything to do with renaissance art?

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>>2517705
>13th century
>Renaissance

>>2517614
>Cities were abandoned in favor of rural life.

Because they were flooded by foreigners looking for the Roman equivalent of "gibmedats", which eventually lead to the collapse of the Roman economy and government.

They moved to the rural parts when they finally destroyed their host species in the cities.

>>2517662
Not him but sculpture from the Gothic period onward was influenced by classical sculpture. You have artists like Pisano in the south and Sluter in the north who were looking directly at Roman marbles.

>>2514215
>Dark Ages
when will this meme finally end

>>2517725
Out of interest have you ever read a book on Late Roman history?

>>2517718
still has nothing to do with rennaissance art, its completely static. theres a reason most medieval scultpure fits well as pillars

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>>2517536

>>2514559
Yes

The Irish one is clearly far better.

Chr*stianity

>>2514280
God that's ugly

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>>2514280
We built a lot of fancy shit too, and that didn't stoped the spaniards from doing to us what they did to the arabs in their land, after the arabs gifted them with a culture.

One word: plague.

The only explanation for the surge of darkness (ie more illiteracy and lack of refined culture) cannot be blamed to some internal struggle, for it is exactly from internal struggle that culture and society refines itself. Humans support ideas that seem good.
No, it was the cruel randomness of the world: a different, invisible species (bacteria) had developed an advantage that we were unable to curb for a long while.

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>>2514215
How did everyone suddenly get so much dumber during the XXI centaury?

>>2517790
You ever hear of the Vandals? How about the Goths?

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>>2517662
Christianity is the only Abrahamic religion that allows sculpture and any Christian sculptures you can find are from at least half a millennium after the Western Roman Empire ended and any living memory of Roman paganism was gone.

>>2518388
No i think my roman history book forgot to go over that subject, can you explain?

>>2514256
Not until the late dark ages, saxons didn't become SUPER Christian until 11th century when wulfrid (I think that's his name) came along, the norseman took even longer. Also there were crusades into the Slavic lands to convert them as well. Italy and part of France was pretty Christian by that time

>>2514215

It's yet another "people ignoring that 99% of medieval art comes from tiny manuscript illustrations that are a few square inches at most and we're normally looking at highly zoomed in, contextless versions where every flaw and brushstroke is clearly visible" episode.

>>2515876
Not really, there isn't that much here and there are a lot of better places to visit

>>2518388
They didn't do any of what that anon described. They were eager to partake in Roman society, not exploit it.

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>>2518532
Idiots say the same thing about invaders...er, "migrants", today.

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>>2518516
>this shitty art is shitty because reasons even though there are no better examples of it

Reminder that early Christian architecture was inferior to Greco-Roman architecture early on as well. It only started looking acceptable in the Gothic era, and even then Italian architects of the Renaissance called Gothic buildings "ugly makeshifts" because of how much of a pointy mess they can look like.

>>2518587

Those reasons need to be factored in before declaring it "shitty" though. Otherwise you're looking at a panel from the latest Spiderman comic and complaining it doesn't look like Christ in the House of His Parents, just because it's not as much of a stand alone pretty picture.

>everyone

>>2518566
>Projecting your modern ideological worldview upon history so hard

Stop being Marxist-tier.

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>>2518566
who built this?

>>2517536
It's true, just after the emperors christened they demanded their sculptures to have large eyes to depict power. Symbols took over the more realistic styles.

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>>2518587
Our pointy shit looks better though. We wuz Anor Londo n shiet: http://darksouls.wikia.com/wiki/Anor_Londo#Trivia

>The level designs of Anor Londo are heavily modeled after real life locations in Europe. The interior structures, where the player fights the Silver Knights are based on Château de Chambord, in France, while the exterior structures are based upon Milan Cathedral in Italy. Moreover, the statues on both sides of the Fog Door to the boss room can be found in the Uffizi and are depicting Antoninus of Florence (always on the right) and Benvenuto Cellini (always on the left). See the following pictures: Ingame, Antoninus of Florence and Benvenuto Cellini

>>2515510
>With the advent of camera and film visual art is literally irrelevant
Kys my man

fall of the roman empire and the continued influx of germanic tribes lead to too much instability.

ERE/Byzantine and the Caliphate never saw declines from the classical period because they had political stability.

though eventually the ottomans stagnated during the Age of Sail because the Europeans stopped trading through the turks.

>>2518688
Justinian I, the Roman Emperor.

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>>2518150
>gifted them with a culture
Looking at that, it seems Spain did both the Incas and Arabs a favor.

>>2514508
neither was he a giant sitting atop a cathedral

>>2518162
then why did the renaissance happen within a century of the black plague in the 1300s.

>>2518566
It's not even remotely the same you faggot. Are you comparing our white ancestors to muslims?

>>2518587
Too pointy. Was it autism?

>>2517798
>its completely static.
No shit m8 it's statuary, they aren't exactly known for moving around innit

>>2517662
>heh why are they wearing Jew hats?
>and that guy has a sword
>wait a minute is he cutting hat dude's ear off?
>what's going on here, hold on it looks like that guy in the back is getting kis
>ooooooooh
>right....

>>2514215
>"dark ages"
There's no such thing.
You're just spouting Enlightenment's 18th century memes to justify the atrocity commited in the name of progress.

>>2514397
>American education

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My god you're all so fucking dumb

THERE WAS NO DECLINE IN ART

Pic related is from a Gothic Cathedral during the so called "decline"

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...

>>2514242
ew, gay!

>>2523259
>Gothic
>The Dark Ages
Speaking of being "so fucking dumb".

>>2518697
if you think the only problem is the eyes, you are bad at art.

>>2524155
There's nothing "wrong" with it at all. It's a deliberate stylistic choice on the part of the artist, a style which came into vogue after Constantine. More realist sculptures continued to be made in poorer and more isolated parts of the empire.

>>2524053
>Dark Ages is a term of historical periodisation referring to a period of supposed cultural and economic deterioration, and scarcity of written record, usually being contrasted with the more recent times of the writer and with classical antiquity. Its original use referred to the Western European Middle Ages (roughly the 6th to 14th centuries), emphasising the perceived decline following the fall of the Roman Empire.[1][2][3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography)
>Gothic architecture is a style of architecture that flourished in Europe during the high and late medieval period. It evolved from Romanesque architecture and was succeeded by Renaissance architecture. Originating in 12th-century France and lasting into the 16th century,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_architecture
BTFO

>>2524225
>This original definition is still sometimes found in popular use,[1][2][7] but increased recognition of accomplishments during the Middle Ages has since the 20th century led to the appellation usually being restricted to the Early Middle Ages (c. 5th–10th century).[8][9]
lmao BTFO by your own source

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>>2518587
Thats because most cathedrals took centuries to complete so they became an amalgamation of styles and objectives.
A quickly built Cathedral had a more consistent style.

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>>2514215
Not so sure you can use art of the period as a metric to measure intelligence of society.

>>2515807

Fuck you. They were mediterranean, the people you now call "mudslime tainted". They had curly hair, so according to your "pol logic (tm)" they had been tainted with nigger blood. Fuckyou they are not white. You should stic with white advancements like the mudhut.

>>2517725
>>2518388
>>2518566

So... youre saying that pure blooded white people can be as savage and uncivilized as pure blooded negros if given the chance?

Oh my god who could have guessed?!

>>2514280
>a smart well educated priest has a plan of a church
>he tells uneducated villagers to build the church
>the villagers do the work and finish it
>smart artist paints the church
>church looks good
>villagers go back at being stupid twats
At least people opened more schools.

>>2518184
Blame children and retards

>>2514215

Inbreeding with white Germanic tribes lowered the IQ.

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>>2524295
>took 579 years to be finished
>best looking Gothic cathedral in Europe

Nah, Germans are just shit at architecture.

>>2524855
Let's be honest here, the duomo is shit.

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Art is the least of concerns when you live in a decayed society, pillaged by slav tribes, pest and famines.

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>>2524897
Someone is jelly because his cathedral wasn't based on the eternal city of Anor Londo : http://darksouls.wikia.com/wiki/Anor_Londo#Trivia

>The level designs of Anor Londo are heavily modeled after real life locations in Europe. The interior structures, where the player fights the Silver Knights are based on Château de Chambord, in France, while the exterior structures are based upon Milan Cathedral in Italy. Moreover, the statues on both sides of the Fog Door to the boss room can be found in the Uffizi and are depicting Antoninus of Florence (always on the right) and Benvenuto Cellini (always on the left). See the following pictures: Ingame, Antoninus of Florence and Benvenuto Cellini

File: balanta.jpg (397KB, 1600x1094px) Image search: [Google]

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>>2524491

I think the difference is eventually the white people become civilized.

>>2514215
You are aware that dumb people never vanish right?

It's just that smart people learned how to preserve intelligence better than their prequels.


The Monks of the dark ages preserved the wisdom of the previous generations.


Nobody suddenly gets dumber...
It's just that mass panic makes intelligent people vanish, for they were probably brutally murdered by the fools around them.


Also, the Dark Ages had it's own intellectuals... Said monks made allot of interesting content.
Many artists later rose, and a new age was coming.

Christianity did bring beautiful things along with it... Not only the insane butchery of the inquisition and the crusades.


New hope was brought, and civilization progressed.

The fall of the Roman empire, wasn't the fall of it's intellectuals...

We can still read their works today.


But, idiots are still all over the place, they never vanished.