Is "i was just following orders" a valid defense?

>>2509881
No because you're more accountable to "insert greater moral good here" than a hierarchy of command.

Well if you're on the losing side of the war and the conquerors decide to have their way with you it doesn't really matter now does it? It's basically a farce.

>>2509881
Ask the Jews who kidnapped and executed him.

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War has no laws.

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Didn't bomber harris technically commit warcrimes?

>the western world spends 2000 years indoctrinating military men into following orders without question
>someone does exactly that
>no no don't do that though *Nurembergs you*

>>2509909
>get bombed
>fuck that
>bomb back
W-warcrimes!11

>>2509899
FUCKING numales shouldn't be allowed to serve reeeee

>>2509913
I'm not saying if he should or shouldn't have done it.
but the civilians that died in Harris bomb raids wherent the ones that bombed London and the allied bomb raids where much more fatal then the axis ones

>>2509899
Being this retarded.

There's been international norms and laws regarding war pretty much all throughout history.

>>2509909
No, there were no rules about bombing by air back then. In fact many Luftwaffe officers were not persecuted for precisely this reason. This was also apparent in how the Allies dealt with Doenitz, who though he had technically committed a war crime with his submarine warfare was let off because the Allies were doing similar things.

>>2509881
Odds are you'd kill a bunch of Jews as well if someone in authority told you to do it.

>In Milgram's first set of experiments, 65 percent (26 of 40) of experiment participants administered the experiment's final massive 450-volt shock

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment#Results

>>2509881
>Is "i was just following orders" a valid defense?
Not if you lose the war and find yourself before an enemy tribunal apparently.

>>2509926
Luftwaffe general Alexander Lohr was tried and executed by Yugoslav authorities specifically for his bombing of Belgrade.

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>>2510133
can't trust a slav

>>2509881
Eichmann was actually a follower of Kant, at least he tried to.

Eichmann actually disobeyed orders and can't the slaughter of the Jews going.

>>2510188
the thread isn't specifically about Eichmann

>>2509881
According to the Israeli army instruction on this
that depends on the type of the order given. If the order is illegal but does not cause irreversible harm (destroy this empty property even though you don't see the operational need to do so) than you must follow it at the field but you also have a duty to report the incident after the mission is over and you will get immunity. If the harm is irreversible like kill all the men in this village and rape the women then you have a duty not to follow the order and if possible prevent it form happening. Otherwise you will be tried with your commanding officer as fellow conspirators.
The examples for illegal orders given were OP pic related and a massacre committed by an IDF unit in the 50s (enforcing curfew imposed during a war by shooting civilians that were seen on the streets after curfew hour).

>>2509881

In theory the answer seems to be yes.
Military teach soldiers to be mindless drones to the point they become tools, that's especially true in a militaristic, totalitarian and/or a collectivist society. When you shoot someone with a gun, the gun is not responsible, you are for pressing the trigger. In that case, the higher ups only are responsible if the soldiers only obey to orders, whether they are evil or not.

In reality it's different, like those guys said >>2509889
>>2509912 the winning side basically decide wether if it's a valid defense or not, and it becomes more about politics and less about justice.

>>2509881
Unless you are explicitly threatened of being killed if you are not doing it, then no. Officers almost always have the opportunity to disregard orders and desert.

Higher officers could even just resign and suffer no serious consequences. Guderian for example asked to be relieved after disagreeing with Hitler's military strategy and he was simply put into reserves behind the front lines.

>>2510215
This.

What were the consequences for the average Wehrmacht soldier if he refused to execute prisoners i.e. violate the Hague Convention?

I find it pretty rich when someone tries to claim that they would have resisted or something if they lived in nazi germany. They're often the people who are the most fervent in their defense of the current morality.

>>2510235
nothing

>>2510281
agreed

>be German scientist
>run experiments on jews, Poles, POWs etc.
>Burn them alive with flamethrowers
>Test new ammo on them
>Run them over with tanks for fun
>Test grenades on them
>Test various poisonois substances on them just coz I can
>Infect them with deadly diseases
>Kill hundreds, send even more to concentration camps
>Germany loses the war
>lol no problem
>Continue my work for Americans

>>2509881
Only when you're an Israeli soldier after killing a palestinian child.

>>2510290
Whoah full Hollywood over here

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>>2510300
well it's true for japanese scientists

>>2510298
lol

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WASTE THE MOTHERFUCKERS

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>>2509909
no

revenge =/= war crimes

"dont throw rocks if you live in a shitheap vulnerable glass country"

>>2510215
No such thing as justice

Yes
It's not like you refusing to follow orders and getting shot for being a traitor would have stopped the holocaust or ended the war, you would have just been an extra body tossed into a mass grave somewhere and forgotten like everyone else

>We will kill you unless you do x
>war is over
>Allies: "you did x, you will be executed"

Somewhat yeah. Im not sure how you can get around disobeying your higher ups.

>>2511315
>how you can get around disobeying your higher ups

Desert and hide?

>>2509919
If hitler didn't want to invoke revenge bombing then he shouldn't have acted like a fuckwit trying to nightbomb and not have any failures, and if the german people didn't elect such a fuckwit then the whole affair would've been avoided.

>>2511332
>hey whats this lone man of military age doing behind this bush
>whats your name sir?
>"'dont have one"
>oh ok, here is some food and clothes to last you until the end of the war, have fun

>>2509909
>warcrimes
nah, just crimes against humanity. I wouldn't put all the blame on him though, war aint easy

>>2511349
this

If disobeying the orders would get you killed it is.

If you have to choose between kill or be executed by your superior then it's a valid defence everywhere in the civilised world.

Another thing would be cover up things when you had the chance to come clear.

>>2510215

They don't teach soldiers to be mindless drones.

People are always going to be "mindless drones" under the aegis of hierarchy and executive control.

Workers at the DMV are mindless drones. Mindless dronage is the default state for a majority of mankind.

The military doesn't break you. The military attracts mindless drone like people.

You don't need to teach most people to be mindless drones.

>>2509881
Yes. If could say something to a former Nazi, I'd tell them that they did what was moral, that they are moral people, and that they shouldn't feel ashamed.

People underestimate the power of peer pressure. If you wore a t-shirt, or a sweater, or maybe a scarf, it's because you're forcefed the norms of society. You could have worn a high-durability leather tunic instead. Hygiene is a social meme. People say "I want to look good for myself", but it's ironic, because vanity is a social meme.
Even autistic people who are supposedly anti-social conform to an extent.

It's not the nazi guard that should be ashamed. It's the people at the top who push these laws and orders, they are the ones who should be ashamed.

>>2509881
No, as humanity is a law above all others. As Thomas would say, the laws of man are not binding if they go against laws of God.

>>2511315
What about the people who refused to commit war crimes? Most of them received no punishment

>>2510221
>>2511300
>>2511315
>>2511401
Self-preservation is not a valid defence any more than self-interest is. If they were put in front of a firing squad and told to commit evil, the only correct choice would have been to say "Shoot.".
>>2510203
That sounds like a very good system, honestly.

This is where honor and morality come in.

If he's a brainless coward he'll obey.
If he values honor and morality along with his life he'll escape.
If he's a real man with bravery in his heart, he'll disobey and state why and what to the higher ups.

all of these happened during history, sadly the 2nd and 3rd part are the least documented.

No all Krauts deserve to die desu senpai

>>2511897
>This is where honor and morality come in.
>If he's a brainless coward he'll obey.

If an entire society is gearing up for war, it's not brainless to go along with family and friends. A human without a tribe is a worm until otherwise.

>If he values honor and morality along with his life he'll escape.

WW1 was a shock. The regulations and cultural changes afterwards were another shock. Honor and morality? ha ha ha.

Honor and morality do not survive social upheaval and starvation.

>If he's a real man with bravery in his heart, he'll disobey and state why and what to the higher ups.

Like a true cuck. What makes you think the higher ups favor truth over order?

>>2512056

and of course in the midst of all this, societies on both sides literally binging on novelty stimulants.

>>2509881
>seriously and unironically asking the nail why it has been pushed into the wood
Well, because the hammer did it, you dingus.

The hammer hammered and the nail was nailed, both as they were intended to do.

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>>2509881
Not if you loose the war lol

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>>2509890
HE DINDUNUFFIN

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>>2510298
Israeli's dont try to kill "palestinian" children. But they're so fat they're hard to miss

>>2511347
majority of Germans didn't vote for Hitler tho

Depends on the command hierarchy, if it's iron-fisted and you're executed for disobeying anything in the slightest I suppose it's understandable but then you look at shit like the Milgram experiments and realize that most people would only being saying so to save their own skin, again.

Look up the stanley milgrim experiment. If you want a fleshed out explaination, listen to the npr podcast about it.

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>>2509881
it was for this guy

>>2509909

SOWED

>>2514329

THE

>>2514332

WIND

>>2509881
A defense to what? War crimes don't exist.

>>2509913
It was worsse than the holocaust and you know it.

>>2509881
Yes.

>>2509881
Soldiers get a raw deal. Any soldier that won't follow orders is a bad soldier, obviously. Governments train soldiers to follow orders no matter what, then turn around and condemn soldiers of other nations for having done exactly that.

>>2514335
REAPED

This thread reminds me of >moralfags threads on /v/

>>2511463
Redpill me on anarcho-feudalism