Hedonism

>>2493103
>Is hedonism more rampant todays world then in the past?

No.

>Have there been any atheist/hedonist civilizations that hasnt gone to hell?

Yes, all of them.

>>2493112
What?

>>2493103

No. We aren't even the worst. It may be more socially acceptable and easier to engage in due to the times we live in, but it isn't worse than any time in history.

When you compare that to various tribes with widespread orgies and drug use, the lack of controls on said practices, sacrifices, etc., then you realize that this is babby's first hedonistic society. Granted, I fully believe it will get worse and probably at its peak wipe the floor with the past's excesses, but it's child's play to shit that has gone on.

>>2493103

Yes it is, absolutely, because a good portion of modern society is well off.

People constantly mistake the behavior of the elite in the past with the behavior of the society as a whole.

99.99% of Romans did not have orgies in villas but were just regular conservative poor as fuck folk.

>>2493225
>the averge roman pleb was """"conservative""""

yeah ok

>>2493243

Yes, the average Roman pleb was a poor fuck who lived a boring monogamous life, just like 99.99999% of people until the 20th century kicked in.

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>>2493103
Yes, people have more leisure time and wealth now and lack a metaphysical framework that gives them meaning beyond sensory pleasure. So most people worship Mammon and are focused on pursuing pleasure and accumulating material goods.

However, the key thing is to remember that it is within your power to not be a hedonist and to present arguments against hedonism. The Stoics and Christianity btfo hedonism and provide a meaningful framework in which to exercise the virtues.

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>>2493579
>Sacrificing your actual current life fulfilment in exchange for the promise of something in the future that may not even exists.
>Assuming the slave morality is something good.

Get out.

>>2493610
What is "fulfillment"? Is it sensory pleasure? Accumulation of wealth? Both?

>>2493610
>implying the meaningless sensual pleasures of hedonism are fulfilling

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>>2493677
>Not being able to fully appreciate the pleasures of life, even the sensual ones.
>Lacking self-control to take what you need, and only what you need.

I bet you're the kind of people who would get drunk the same with cheap beer or old blended whisky.

>Will never reach ataraxia
>LaughingMuses.jpg

>>2493746
So you exist for the sake of pleasure? How can something that happens indiscriminately to both good and evil men regardless of their deeds be considered good or evil?

The world you pose without Providence or an ultimate justice simply isn't worth living in because the billions of people whose lives are characterized by suffering through no fault of their own will have no respite other than death. Epicureanism takes a combination of immense narcissism and material wealth in order to provide any semblance of fulfillment. Even then Epicureans believe that the soul dissolves upon physical death, so it is all for naught in the end.

Hedonist America was doing just fine from 1960 to 2000 desu

>>2493299
I think he's more pointing out that you're projecting your own political ideology onto Roman plebeians

>>2493788
>Very first line of quote on the pic.

Pleasure is just that, pleasure. Is neither evil or good, it just is what it is. And to some degree, yes, we do exists not so much to seek pleasure, but also to avoid pain, otherwise, why would we be here? Which lead me to another point: how an almighty, benevolent and omniscient being (let's call it Providence or God) and evil can co-exists? Whether we accept the mysticism of a greater scheme and lack of perspective (Hi, Leibniz!), or we pick the edgelord route of negating His existence or value, we ultimately face the fact we're surrounded by conditions that are outside our control (hey, I neither caused that tsunami, or have the means to actually improve the life of those affected), so we only have full control on our lives. So, let's try to get the best out of it.

>Soul
Give me convincing arguments why the soul is something pre-existing to our body, and will outlast our biological existence.

No. People have always indulged in pleasures.

>>2493990
>we only have full control on our lives
Not really. For the beginning of your life you're dependent on people who may or may not raise you or treat you properly, and you can get seriously fucked for the rest of your life if it's the latter.

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>>2493103
yes but it doesnt matter even if we have an arbitrary aversion to it

>>2493677
>fulfilling
that's hedonism, you little troglodyte

>>2493117
lol

>>2493990
My own subjective experiences along with Pascal's wager convinced me to live my life as a Christian theist. I found hedonism to be wholly unfulfilling and my life is better by every objective measure

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>>2493103
>Is hedonism more rampant todays world then in the past?
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-millennials-less-sex-20160802-snap-story.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/janetwburns/2017/03/10/americans-are-having-less-sex-partnered-or-single/#6222b5bd68a5
http://mashable.com/2017/03/08/people-having-less-sex/#M9fJcFEB8Sq3

No, that's just an illusion thanks to expanding telecommunications making it easier than ever to record every moment of our lives, even the embarrassing moments. In reality, people are having less sex than they did in the past, mostly because they'd rather be sitting in front of a screen

hedonism always existed but now its rampant because of the invention od condoms, the pill and safe abortions.

>>2493799

I mean conservative in the behavioral meaning, not the political one.

I am not American, conservative does not mean a political party here.

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>atheist/hedonist
No, not a single one, for very obvious reason you fucking brainlet.

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>unsustainable resource exploitation will bring about the downfall of civilization in your life time
>people will instead blame it on dumb shit like "degeneracy"

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>>2493103
They've been around since the French revolution told htem it was ok.

YOu don't read about them very much because they never do anything worthy of note. Hedonism is essentially doing the same shit an animal does. They just chase after shit htat makes the good chemicals in their brains go off as often as they can. Sex, sleep, food, and drugs.

No different than an animal, and not interesting or worth writing down what these people do as literally anyone can do these things.

>>2493103
>Is hedonism more rampant todays world then in the past?


Yes, Christianity was strong for 20000 years but degeneracy has returned from the depths of the human soul.

>>2496172
pretty much this

>>2493299
just because you cant afford being a hedonist doesnt mean you are not one

>>2493796
>the people that benefited were doing just fine

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>>2494165
THICC nun

Almost makes me want to become a priest.

Daily reminder that hedonism is the ultimate cuck philosophy.

>>2496258
cosplaying with your THICC wife would probably be a more feasible and consistent means of scoring pussy

I wonder what a hedonist would do if he/she had to live in a third world country

>>2496597
Contract aids most likely

>>2496604
True

Modern society is actually really not degenerate. You only think old societies weren't degenerate because they hid it. If you read graffiti from that those times, the ugly truth rears its head. We've got more virgins and less teen pregnancies and crime than ever before.

>>2496634
>We've got more virgins

Impossible to determine

>>2494165
sex does not equate to hedonism. substitution effect, millenials are using screens and drugs which are just as debasing without the need for refractory periods.

>>2495451

It goes hand in hand. Ruining the family and turning people into little consumers

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>>2493108
Dude, just go outside for a minute.

The ever expanding belt lines of society as well as more and more sex shops pretty much proves that hedonism is more prevalent now than say 60 years ago.

>>2493117
The joke is that if they're atheist they don't believe in hell

>>2496596
But it wouldn't be a nun pussy now, would it?

>>2496669
Yup. Every girl i see everyday in public have very tight clothes etc and alot of makeup. Boy wear very unmodest clothing too
Todays pop music is degenerate as fuck too

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>>2496653
This.

Prior to the abundance of birth control couples had a lot of sex for a short burst then less and less as time went on.

The average couple had around 6 or 7 kids and most sex was for the purpose of reproduction. Enjoying it was a nice side effect.

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>>2496682
My argument isn't along those lines although those could be included certainly.

My argument regards the fact that things like fast food and porn consumption are becoming more and more common and more and more cases of obesity and pornography addiction are occuring.

The fact that a majority of American children are obese should show you that the majority of American children are hedonistic in terms of diet.

>>2496234
this
hedonism just means you seek pleasure and avoid pain and think that's a valid end unto itself

>>2496700
Rampant hedonism is dangerous for the individual as well as society though.

To maintain good things requires hard work and diligence.

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>>2496653
>millenials
You mean everyone: Gen X, Baby Boomers, etc. Every generation is experiencing this phenomenon, and even couples who have been committed to each other and no one else for their entire lives.

>>2496684
>muh degeneracy
The reason people had 6 or 7 kids was because they were rural farmers who needed all the hands that they could get. For as long as there have been cosmopolitan areas children have been an investment of resources, rather than an extra pair of hands helping around the land, so people had 2 to 3 instead, because they could invest limited resources maximizing their chances for success in a strenuous, intellectually demanding urban setting.

In the days when urban poverty was a thing, households having that many children meant packs of uneducated hooligans and orphans roaming the street committing petty crimes and getting into trouble.

It just so happens that the vast majority of people in this day and age live in urban or suburban areas so they're spending more time enriching themselves and pursuing interests than they are being bred for simple minded obedience and unflinching obedience and unlimited patience for rote bitch-work, which is what happens to rural folk who are able to socially isolate and dominate their children. Social movement is always in the direction of greater social mobility, and for a large number of people that meant giving up their subsistence farm and moving to the city in search of better paying factory work.

>>2496653
I'm pretty sure that other than weed and maybe alcohol, drug use is going down.

>>2493746
Come on, man. I drink on a budget.

>>2494165
>In reality, people are having less sex than they did in the past
Misleading horseshit.
Define "the past".
No shit post-AIDS generation are having less sex than Pre-AIDS post "Sexual Revolution" generations.

That doesn't magically mean though that people aren't living like debased whores when compared to the social norms pre-birth control.

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>>2496724
Your point on urban Vs rural falls apart when you consider the fact that urban families still had far more children in the late 19th into the mid 20th century then they do now.

The main game changer was birth control which allows sex at any time to purely be about pleasure since there is little to no risk of pregnancy.

>>2496751
>Define "the past".
Why don't you actually read the articles instead of shitposting about how much you disapprove of their conclusions?

>>2496724
>It just so happens that the vast majority of people in this day and age live in urban or suburban areas so they're spending more time enriching themselves and pursuing interests than they are being bred for simple minded obedience and unflinching obedience and unlimited patience for rote bitch-work,

I don't know if this is deliberate dishonesty on your part or you're just so ideologically blinded by whatever bullshit koolaid you've swallowed that you don't consider our public education, system, which spends more time raising urban children than their parents do, to be a system whose entire purpose is anything other than to train young minds into simple minded unflinching obedience and unlimited patience for rote bitch-work.

Hopefully you're just a troll because the alternatives are too depressing to consider.

>>2496684
Nigga, please.

Subsidizing pharmaceutical companies R&D is not the same as legislating BANS on medicine for only one particular group (women), based entirely on religious guidelines.

>>2496765
because I've read the articles dumbass and that's exactly what they do, they compare the promiscuity of our post-AIDS generation to the pre-AIDS generation and claim that kids are prudes nowadays because less of them are taking part in anonymous gangbangs than in the past.

>>2496801
Who the fuck is legislating bans on medicince for women based on religious guidelines?

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>>2496752
>Your point on urban Vs rural falls apart when you consider the fact that urban families still had far more children in the late 19th into the mid 20th century then they do now
And these were in impoverished slums to families who could barely afford to feed the children that they already had, leaving a desperate underclass which is prone to violence, crime, and revolutionary thinking.

More urban poor having children just means more driftless hooligans and more youth crime. The people you want having more children are your educated professional elite: your doctors, professors, lawyers, business leaders, police officers, and these are the kind of people who are easily able to squirrel around socially repressive laws.

>>2496781
>d that you don't consider our public education, system, which spends more time raising urban children than their parents do, to be a system whose entire purpose is anything other than to train young minds into simple minded unflinching obedience and unlimited patience for rote bitch-work.

No matter how badly you want to squeal about a changing world and go cower in a forest somewhere clutching your guns and bibles, the plain truth is that we are increasingly a world dominated by robots and technology, and in order to be a society which remains competitive in this rapidly changing global economy we need to be ready to invest in educational resources which are going to put our future labor force ahead of their peers in China, Europe and other places which aren't dominated by self-serving jackasses when it comes to making investments in education.

We are already at the point where automation is starting to take over farm work, so why would we restrict education and force people back into some rural paradise just to appease a ruling class which would rather be out shooting things in the woods? Because that worked so well for Qing China?

>>2493610

>your life fulfillment is based entirely on pleasure and sensory pursuits

untermensch tier desu

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>>2496802
Then you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

It's not just "kids these days", it's everybody: old people, young people, middle aged people. Technology is the driver of social change, not the bullshit morality of forest apes in camouflage underwear

>>2496825
>No matter how badly you want to squeal about a changing world and go cower in a forest somewhere clutching your guns and bibles

Nice rant ideologue, what does it have to do with the objective fact that factory model schooling's entire purpose is to mold young minds into simple minded unflinching obedience and unlimited patience for rote bitch-work.?

>>2496634
Teen pregnancy isn't degenerate. Riding the cock carousel with no consequences from your 13th birthday and having one children at 35, when women have lower quality eggs, is degenerate. Women valuing their """career""" over building a family is degenerate.

>>2496838
>It's not just "kids these days", it's everybody: old people, young people, middle aged people

Yeah no shit, it's called life in a post-AIDS world dumbass. Nobody wants the fucking monster.

>>2496838
>Homicide rate as proxy for violence in a society

Really relevant:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1124155/

>Medical advances mask epidemic of violence by cutting murder rate

Murder rates would be up to five times higher than they are but for medical developments over the past 40 years.

According to new research, doctors are saving the lives of thousands of victims of attack who four decades ago would have died and become murder statistics.

Although the study is based on US data, the researchers say the principle applies to other countries too: “There is reason to expect a similar trend overall in Britain,” said Dr Anthony Harris, the lead author of the study.

>>2496852
>what does it have to do with the objective fact that factory model schooling's entire purpose is to mold young minds into simple minded unflinching obedience and unlimited patience for rote bitch-work.?
Because you obviously live in an area with shit schools, that's why.

Where I live, the public schools have the money to invest in separate departments, sending the lesser preforming students to pick up a trade and be ready to enter the labor force as a welder or auto mechanic by the time they get their High School diploma, while the higher achieving students are sent to advanced placement classrooms to prep them for college. In fact in my area there's a public STEM academy for underprivileged minority students.

Neither the blue collar nor white collar professions are rote unskilled bitchwork, they require workers who are capable of thinking on their feet and coming up with creating solutions to problems independent of authority.

You get out of education what you invest into it.

>>2496858
>a post-AIDS world dumbass. Nobody wants the fucking monster.
Try to wrap your head around a committed couple, who have never nor ever will touch another person, not having as much sex for various reasons which have absolutely nothing to do with "MEGA SCARY NIGGER FAGGOT AIDS" and try to keep up

>>2496825
You talk like a liberal pundit or an empty-headed exec

>>2496868
And you talk like a slack jawed hoohaw from thje sticks who listens to too much AM radio

>>2496684
>implying people haven't been having sex for pleasure since the dawn of mankind
>implying taking away birth control would make people have less sex instead of just increasing the numbers of unwanted children
nevertheless, the so-called "sexual revolution" is essentially permanent no matter how much bible-bashers/prudes may wish this were not so

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>>2496865
>Because you obviously live in an area with shit schools, that's why.

Per pupil spending in the US is actually among the highest in the entire world.

Past a certain point, educational spending is pure waste on primary and secondary level students. It accomplishes nothing. It is actually a textbook case of diminishing marginal returns.

Look at PISA results. Western countries get absolutely BTFO'd by East Asian ones that spend far less per pupil.

>You get out of education what you invest into it.

Discipline > Cash, as far as education goes. You need a culture of discipline, hard work, self-sacrifice. The average western liberal simply isn't prepared to even contemplate the massive societal changes that would be required to make our societies more disciplined and self-sacrificing. They actually require real work and pain to accomplish, not just blank checks and smug self satisfaction.

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>>2496861
>Really relevant:
Oh, and I suppose the concurrent drop in non-violent/property crime is just a wild coincidence?

>>2496873
>nevertheless, the so-called "sexual revolution" is essentially permanent

Doubtful, in part it exists now because a lot of its costs and negative externalities are socialized. If they weren't and this status quo were maintained for a few decades, then you'd quickly find girls far less willing to take the risk in the first place. The forseeable costs, even for a relatively high time preference individual, would simply be too great.

>implying people haven't been having sex for pleasure since the dawn of mankind

Who has ever claimed otherwise?

>>2496877
That runs from 1998 to 2014. I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove here. What levels were non-violent/property crime at in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s by comparison?

Did you even bother to read the abstract of what I linked you to, out of interest?

>>2496876
>Per pupil spending in the US is actually among the highest in the entire world.
>Past a certain point,
That's a complete half-truth which doesn't even begin to address how efficiently (or inefficiently) we spend our money, how a small number of elite schools can suck up a disproportionate amount of the wealth leaving a thinner, more shallow pie for the public schools in rougher areas which invariably result in poorer performance.

When you look at places with the most successful educational programs, the ones which preform the best are the ones where most of the money is going back to the students in terms of better salaries for more teachers (which attract superior talent which can focus on more manageably sized classrooms) and better educational equipment for the classrooms, rather than flowing into the pockets of middlemen and bureaucrats whose main job is presenting society with the illusion of choice

>>2496831
The meaning of your own life is whatever YOU want it to be. If someone wants to be a hedonist then that's their choice. If you want to work like a slave because muh morals than have at it hoss. So long as your actions or anyone else's do not impact others negatively you can fuck off and mind your own business. That's called freedom you fascist.

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>>2496900
>That's a complete half-truth which doesn't even begin to address how efficiently (or inefficiently) we spend our money

What exactly is a half-truth? The fact the US spends well above the OECD average and among the largest amount in the world for primary and secondary education, on a per-pupil adjusted level? See picture.

>how a small number of elite schools can suck up a disproportionate amount of the wealth leaving a thinner

There have actually been studies assessing it in terms of per pupil spending -by race-, and traditionally viewed "disadvantage groups" like black children have very little difference with white children in terms of per pupil spending.

>better salaries for more teachers

Let's actually test the veracity of this:

>JAPAN: The salary of a median age 45-year-old full-time public school teacher in Japan is about ¥7 million, though a 2010 OECD survey found that Japanese teachers made on average the equivalent of $44,337 a year, which is $7,000 more than the OECD average.17 Nov 2014
>US: The BLS reports the median annual salary for high school teachers was $57,200 in 2015. The best-paid 10 percent in the field made approximately $91,190, while the bottom 10 percent made $37,800. Compensation is typically based on your years of experience and educational level.

Hmmm.

>which attract superior talent which can focus on more manageably sized classrooms

Actually that isn't true. You see Shanghai, which completely dominates in terms of academic attainment and results at a PISA level? It has average class sizes FAR larger than what they are in the United States.

>>2496907
>everyone is equal and everyone should be able to do what they want
Fuck off with your kindergarten-tier logic, libshit normalfag

>>2496893
> I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove here.
That by any metric crime rates are plummeting to historic lows despite a minor statistical blip in the worst urban ethnic neighborhoods recently despite the hysteria of AM radio and paranoid fearmongering country bumkins afraid of the big, bad city

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-26/us-crime-rate-rises-slightly-remains-near-20-year-low

>>2496907

>every choice is equally good

that's not fucking true. Just because I have freedom doesn't mean all the choices I have now are equally fulfilling.

>>2496907
The meaning of life is that you are a temporary custodian of someone else's genetics, and that these people fought like hell so that you could survive and exist on this planet in relative peace. This is why ancestor worship is the most common religious meme across wildly different racial groups.

>>2493225
>>2493579
>>2493677
>>2496172
>>2496189

>not wanting to live a painful life in piety in a poor feudal or com-block shit-hole makes you an ebil degenerate hedonist heathen

I wonder who's behind these posts?

>>2496933
>20 year low
>historic lows

One of these things is not like the other friend. Isn't the nature of progressivism that we, you know, progress? Why is liberalism seemingly impotent and incapable of delivering a level of urban security which security services 60 years ago, with far less funding and technology, were capable of delivering?

And you've completely ignored my question. Did you read the abstract?

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>>2496925
hahahaha and the /pol/nigger IMMEDIATELY starts name calling when he gets BTFO. Fuck off to your containment board.

>>2496939
Whatever floats your boat m8. Pray to your eternal ancestors all you want. You do you boo.

>>2496945
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

>>2496876
you're half right. asian parents do push their kids much harder in general, but there's something you've forgotten. the curriculum in many american schools is utter drivel. lack of proper sex ed, religious indoctrination, etc. they tried to fix this with common core but fucked things up even worse, albeit in different ways. and as you've pointed out, this isn't a problem you can fix simply by throwing money at it
>>2496886
I come from a country where the catholic church ruled with an iron fist for most of the last century. birth control, divorce and homosexuality were only decriminalised in the 90s and abortion is still 100% illegal no matter the circumstances. I can tell you that things are much better now than they were before. my point is that sexual promiscuity is more or less endemic to humankind (for better or worse), and trying to repress it through moral policing just leads to misery and suffering on a widespread scale.
>Who has ever claimed otherwise?
I inferred that viewpoint from your previous post. people had more kids back in the day only because they didn't know any better and didn't have access to birth control etc. you can still see this in developing countries where people are poor as fuck yet still have like 8 kids

>>2496950

>he thinks he's btfo anyone with his meme-tier interpretation of a philosopher that died ranting and raving because the only time he ever got laid it was a hooker and she have him syphilis

>>2496963
k. I'm gonna keep doing what makes me happy so stay mad.

>>2496954
>the curriculum in many american schools is utter drivel. lack of proper sex ed

Actually Chinese sex education is even less erm, "comprehensive" in this regard.

You're wrong to take this Jewish term of "prudishness" and ascribe it as some uniquely American or even Western thing. Most civilizations are sexually conservative. The United States of America and wider modern West is unarguably one of the most sexually permissive civilizations ever to exist on planet Earth, by a good margin. Certainly far moreso than the modern Sinosphere.

>>2496921
>What exactly is a half-truth?
It's when you take a statistic out of context in hopes of pushing a contrary theory before anyone notices the small inconsistencies of your logic.

>Let's actually test the veracity of this:
Like comparing median salaries without taking cost of living into account.

Perfect example

>You see Shanghai,
You see in Finland, which shares far more in common with western values of creativity, liberty, and self-expression, they've managed to generate much superior results without having to treat their students like unthinking drones.
http://hechingerreport.org/how-finland-broke-every-rule-and-created-a-top-school-system/
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-finlands-schools-successful-49859555/

>>2496945
>hurr having enough self control to deny your animal desires = literal torture POL BTFO
>>2496950
You barely understood Nietzsche if you think he was pro-hedonist.

>>2496954
>my point is that sexual promiscuity is more or less endemic to humankind

Also this. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying the average number of sexual partners of any given individual in a western society has remained fairly constant from say, the days of classical antiquity until the present day?

>I inferred that viewpoint from your previous post.

I wasn't the person you were replying to, that was my first post.

>>2496968
but sex is icky and only for making babies and you should feel bad for enjoying it >:(
>>2496972
actually China just approved a brand new comprehensive sex ed curriculum including safe sex and LGBT elements but I suppose you have a point. but my comments about sex and education were basically separate there. I should have clarified that you have kids graduating from high school in the US who stuggle with basic algebra and couldn't even find China on an atlas, meanwhile Chinese kids are basically fucking rayman-tier at maths if memes and stereotypes are to be believed

>>2496978
>You barely understood Nietzsche if you think he was pro-hedonist.
I don't waste my time with philosophy. I have better things to do than read the writings of people who ask questions and then spend the next 200 pages never coming to any answers.

>>2496954
>you're half right. asian parents do push their kids much harder in general, but there's something you've forgotten. the curriculum in many american schools is utter drivel. lack of proper sex ed, religious indoctrination, etc. they tried to fix this with common core but fucked things up even worse, albeit in different ways. and as you've pointed out, this isn't a problem you can fix simply by throwing money at it
Literal reddit-tier talking points. Outside of the bumfuck South schools are extremely liberal in all these respects. Go back to watching CNN sheep

>>2496974
>It's when you take a statistic out of context in hopes of pushing a contrary theory before anyone notices the small inconsistencies of your logic.

Where have I specifically done this friend?

>Like comparing median salaries without taking cost of living into account.

But Japan's cost of living is even higher than America's....

>You see in Finland
>generate much superior results

Finland has actually been falling down the PISA rankings for a while now, back in PISA 2006 they posted some high results, and were the darlings of the western liberal press for a while. Then in 09 and 12 and 15 they fell and fell again.

Why should we pay attention to Finland and not to even more successful school systems?

>which shares far more in common with western values of creativity, liberty, and self-expression

Yes, Japan, which has the highest per capita rate of patents on earth and a soft power ranking second only to the US is "uncreative".

>self-expression

Can you define this for me objectively?

>liberty

This too.

Thanks.

>>2496996
>actually China just approved a brand new comprehensive sex ed curriculum including safe sex and LGBT elements but I suppose you have a point.

You're talking about that textbook you saw on the front page of plebbit I'm guessing? That's from one particular province, it doesn't actually reflect any general change in policy from the central government.

>>2496867
>Try to wrap your head around a committed couple, who have never nor ever will touch another person, not having as much sex for various reasons

I don't see what your bizarre fantasies have to do with anything, least of all real life.

>>2496968
>XD fuck bitches do weed listen to rap
Go to reddit, you're a literal meme of the uncomprending millennial (complete with the meme-tier understanding of Nietzsche)

>>2496997
Epic! Truly you are wise for ignoring intellectualism, you do you!!!!

>>2497006
How do you find the patience to deal with these shitlibs? They're like children. They sit there parroting all this Rousseauian crap about rationality and enlightenment values and then the moment you present them with data they don't like they start screeching and/or trying to massage it into their pre-existing narrative somehow.

I get why chinks hate white liberals now. I really do.

>>2497016
>Go to reddit
Nah

>>2497020
Hey thanks! You too bby!

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>>2496825
You've impressed a point onto me that i wasn't making.

My point wasn't that birth control is bad and that having tons of babies is.

My point is that birth control's unintended consequence was making sex primarily about pleasure rather than primarily about procreation.

>>2497022
Liberalism is an emotional philosophy, it was always at odds with reality and was born as a sort of ersatz religion as Nietzsche rightly recognized. My patience with him is not for his sake, but for any observers who happen to be interested in the topic.

>>2496978
>muh bible
>muh patriarchy
>muh collective state for greater good that totally won't only benefit those in power
>do what i say or it's hedonism
No thanks I'll opt-out this isn't 1488
Your taxes probably fund my hedonistic lifestyle too : ^ )
t autismbux

>>2496865
>Neither the blue collar nor white collar professions are rote unskilled bitchwork,
but farming is right?
hence your complaining here >>2496724
about how rural folk are "being bred for simple minded obedience and unflinching obedience and unlimited patience for rote bitch-work".

>>2496825
>More urban poor having children just means more driftless hooligans and more youth crime.

Pretty much all western societies already have dysgenic fertility in this sense already though. The only people having children are the lower orders, and the way the welfare state is set up (I'm not opposed to a welfare state mind you) is that it is designed to specifically encourage fecundity from the very worst types of people.

>>2496979
I'm trying to say that correlating an increase in "the average number of sexual partners of any given individual in a western society" with an increase in the availability of contraception doesn't mean that magically contraception turns people into sluts, and that negating the negative consequences of casual sex for the general population isn't necessarily a bad thing
>>2497001
>>2497012
>waaah waaah plebbit
this is the part where you tell me I've been btfo'd or post the back to the future meme with the reddit alien on it

>>2496996

This post reeks of femanon. Let's gang rape her.

>>2497038
>if you think that there are higher values than sleeping and fucking youre a shitlord Christian sexist oppressor!
Wow, you're right, all that "art", "philosophy", and "science" bullshit truly was worthless

>>2497045
>implying there are girls on /his/
you wish, bucko

>>2497043
>trying to say that correlating an increase in "the average number of sexual partners of any given individual in a western society" with an increase in the availability of contraception doesn't mean that magically contraception turns people into sluts

Oh ok, it's just that you said:

>my point is that sexual promiscuity is more or less endemic to humankind

But we have clear statistical evidence of people becoming more promiscous from at least the 1950s (and probably well before that). So it's clearly incorrect to say people haven't become more promiscuous; they have.

>and that negating the negative consequences of casual sex for the general population isn't necessarily a bad thing

What do you mean by "negating" here?

>this is the part where you tell me I've been btfo'd or post the back to the future meme with the reddit alien on it

I'm just saying you're mistaking the textbook you saw on whatever site you saw it on as a general change in policy from the CCP.

>>2497040
>Pretty much all western societies already have dysgenic fertility in this sense already though. The only people having children are the lower orders, and the way the welfare state is set up (I'm not opposed to a welfare state mind you) is that it is designed to specifically encourage fecundity from the very worst types of people.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that, but a strong argument in favour of what you're saying is that stupid people are easier for the (((elites))) to rule

>>2497006
>But Japan's cost of living is even higher than America's....
http://howtoretireearly.net/a-comparison-of-the-cost-of-living-in-japan-and-the-us/
You asked for a half-truth, I've been calling you out on them this whole time

>Finland has actually been falling down the PISA rankings for a while now,
More half-truths on top of half-truths which neglects efficiency.

I never made that dumping money into the system automatically results in better educational standards. I said that the money you do spend has to go towards the right things or all you're doing is padding the salaries of salespeople.

>Why should we pay attention to Finland and not to even more successful school systems?
Do I have to explain the concept of shared cultural values?

>Can you define this for me objectively?
People who are trained at creative problem solving find creative solutions for your problems. In order to do this they need an environment where they feel like their voice can be heard
>This too.
>freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice.
I can't believe that I have to explain this to a westerner

>>2497022
>They're like children.
Says the paranoid forest ape who chimps out at anyone offering a contrary opinion and threatening his safe space

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>>2493610
>Hedonism

I'm very triggered that you posted a Nietzsche pic with your rubbish.

>>2496907
Just because everyone's going to come to a different conclusion doesn't mean that everyone's decisions should be protected from scrutiny. And indeed by jumping down that anon's throat because he made fun of hedonism is an example of you doing this, you see your moral and existential conclusions are correct and so feel authorized to criticize those of others.

Not that there's anything wrong with you doing that, but it's very hypocritical of you to say everyone should be tolerant of people regardless of their philosophies whilst also refusing to accept anon's philosophical opposition to hedonism.

>>2496838
Freakonomics has an interesting take on this drop in crime: Roe vs. Wade.

>>2497058
>But we have clear statistical evidence of people becoming more promiscous from at least the 1950s (and probably well before that). So it's clearly incorrect to say people haven't become more promiscuous; they have.
Well that is true, but in general the first half of the 20th century was a time of sexual and moral repression in the western world. what you're missing here is that our modern notions of sexual propriety are a meme which started in the Victorian era. I would argue that current trends are a return to form (which you could certainly argue have been "exacerbated" by contraception etc).
>What do you mean by "negating" here?
"ameliorating" would've been a better word

>>2497085
>Freakonomics has an interesting take on this drop in crime: Roe vs. Wade.
So does the Romanian experiment with "pro-life" policy but don't tell the forest apes because it will trigger them into a rant about degeneracy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decree_770

>>2497075
I never said he couldn't think or say what he wanted. All I said was that if he wants to physically impose his will upon others he can fuck off. What do I care if he spends every waking moment of his short time on this earth complaining like a faggot on 4chan? It's his life to waste.

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>>2497061
>I wouldn't go so far as to say that, but a strong argument in favour of what you're saying is that stupid people are easier for the (((elites))) to rule

Yes, the elites want a race of stupid brown people to lord over. That much is given.

>>2497069
>You asked for a half-truth, I've been calling you out on them this whole time

You posted a blog friend. Actual purchasing power indices say that the cost of living in Japan is higher, on average, than it is in the United States:

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp

>has to go towards the right things

Such as teacher salaries and class sizes, which we've already discussed.

>Do I have to explain the concept of shared cultural values?

So your point is that if a non-western society does anything better than us, we should just ignore it because they don't "share our values"?

Whose values are these even? They're certainly not mine, and they certainly don't seem to be the values of a good portion of the Pakistani immigrant community in my country either.

>People who are trained at creative problem solving find creative solutions for your problems.

So you're saying this isn't a part of Japan's culture? Even though they have among the highest number of per capita engineers in the world?

>In order to do this they need an environment where they feel like their voice can be heard

I don't see how this is relevant to what you said about problem solving. It feels like you're just stringing together nice-sounding platitudes about education.

>freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions

But control and obligation are quite literally contigent parts of any educational system to begin with. You control pupils in setting curricula for them, you provide them with obligations in meeting certain targets (examinations, homework, coursework etc).

So what relevance does this have to educational systems again?

>>2497088
>but in general the first half of the 20th century was a time of sexual and moral repression in the western world

By comparison to what era?

>is that our modern notions of sexual propriety are a meme which started in the Victorian era.

I would recommend you read some Michel de Montaigne. The idea that pre-Victorian sexuality was promiscuous and free-reigned is jaw-droppingly stupid.

Again: Civilizations have a tendency towards sexual restraint.

>"ameliorating" would've been a better word

With public money?

>>2497016
>do weed

cringe

>>2497102
That's exactly what you did though. You made the point "You're morally wrong, I'm morally right" exactly as he was doing. And exactly as you're doing now. As well as that he never even mentioned or implied anything about physically imposing his will. All he did was call hedonists untermenschen.

And not to mention every possible kind of system requires imposing the will of one person on another (e.g in a liberal democracy you still need to collect taxes lest the state collapse), or being so ineffectual that it gives people who want to impose themselves on others the opportunity to do so (e.g a society so lawless that rapists can act with impunity). The kind of Thelemic fantasy-land you want is not possible in this way

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>>2497051
Art, philosophy, and science do best when they're not heavily restricted by moralist societies and legislation

>>2497140
>restricted

What you need to understand is that there is always an overton window somewhere, and thus there's always some restrictive force in play.

Art glorifying militaries and monarchies just wouldn't fly at any art school for example.

I haven't read this huge shit thread, but what I will say is that people in western societies these days take drugs too lightly, there's a sort of casual indifference to their dangers which makes me legitimately worry, especially when you see all these young people OD'ing and dying in increasing numbers, especially in the United States.

I'll admit for me it's partly a racial issue as well. I don't like seeing my own kind (whites) suffer.

>>2497104
>Such as teacher salaries and class sizes, which we've already discussed.
Then I don't even know why you're wasting our time with misleading statistics when we both agree that raw money being dumped into the system is less important than how and why dollars are being spent.

>So your point is that if a non-western society does anything better than us, we should just ignore it because they don't "share our values"?
No, my point is that societies need to play to their strengths

>Whose values are these even? They're certainly not mine,
And people claim liberals/leftists are the ones without a sense of community and shared national heritage.
> and they certainly don't seem to be the values of a good portion of the Pakistani immigrant community in my country either.
That's funny, because my job requires me to go into the houses of people of all ethnicities and I get to know them for being the quiet professionals who love the country that they live in, so whose anecdotes have more water?

>? the highest number of per capita engineers in the world?
You need more than engineers to run a dynamic economy. That line of thinking is what led to the USSR being such a bloated, inefficient system even though their entire ruling class were engineers by trade.

>g. It feels like you're just stringing together nice-sounding platitudes about education.
Because children aren't robots and you can't treat them like they can just be "engineered" for good behavior.
>But control and obligation are quite literally contigent parts of any educational system to begin with. You control pupils in setting curricula for them, you provide them with obligations in meeting certain targets (examinations, homework, coursework etc).
More and more the research is showing that children do best with guided curriculum that encourages them to devote their resources towards areas of interest that they naturally gravitate towards, and then giving them the flexibility to experiment.

>>2497027
>birth control's unintended consequence was making sex primarily about pleasure rather than primarily about procreation.
Yes I'm sure everyone involved was totally shocked by this unexpected development.

>>2497027
>birth control's unintended consequence

is the fact that it's leaking into the water supply through urine and thus consumed by EVERYBODY every single time you take a drink.

No media will cover this because the only solution is to make it illegal. Meanwhile the government subsidizes and makes sure as many women as possible take it because big pharma needs their boondoggle.

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>>2497161
>with misleading statistics

What misleading statistics? Everything I have posted thus far is reputable and can be substantiated across multiple sources.

>less important than how and why dollars are being spent.

My point is that if these issues were as crucially important (teacher salaries and class sizes) as you imagine them to be, Japan and Shanghai would not be operating such excellent school systems.

>No, my point is that societies need to play to their strengths

This isn't an "everyone's a winner" scenario dude. Either you can do a differential equation or you can't, you don't just flunk out of a mechanics question by saying "yeah, mechanics isn't really my strength. Bloviating about how wonderful gay marriage is, can we have exams in that instead?"

>And people claim liberals/leftists are the ones without a sense of community and shared national heritage.

Well you aren't. That's why you let millions of random aliens into our countries and reduced our national identity to a travel document in the first place.

>so whose anecdotes have more water?

We don't need anecdotes, we have data. The Policy Exchange's survey on British Muslims shows them becoming inter-generationally more radical, which is the exact opposite of what leftists said would happen.

>That line of thinking is what led to the USSR being such a bloated, inefficient system even though their entire ruling class were engineers by trade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)

>Because children aren't robots

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

>with guided curriculum

Children don't understand what they're fully committing themselves to by prioritizing say, English lit above Mathematics at the age of 12. That's why direction is necessary.

99% of the issues you people worry about will stop existing after the global thermonuclear war.

>>2497191
Can't wait.

>>2497191
That's great, liberalism can only subsist in wealthy societies because it is a parasitic ideology that relies upon wealth and technology to paper over the cracks and dysfunctions it invariably creates.

>>2497166
Wow, sassy/10.

Here's some reddit gold, you go girl.

>>2497202
If you're that easily triggered by having your absurdity pointed out, perhaps you should be off to r/safespace/ instead.

>>2497202
is girl really an insult here? seems like a better state of being to me

>>2497209

kys

>>2497114
>By comparison to what era?
the [current year], of course :^)
>I would recommend you read some Michel de Montaigne. The idea that pre-Victorian sexuality was promiscuous and free-reigned is jaw-droppingly stupid.
I'll look into it. maybe not totally free-reigned, but certainly freer. I was reading something recently about how there used to be girls selling dildos from flower baskets in hyde park in london in the 16th/17th century (I don't remember). and then you have shit like the brothels and penis monster statues in pompeii
>Again: Civilizations have a tendency towards sexual restraint
if you say so, nigga. religious authorities may, but people in general certainly don't
>With public money?
better to spend public money on condoms and sex ed than welfare programs to bring up unwanted children.

my point ad nauseam is that people are gonna have non-marital/recreational sex anyway and I don't see a problem with facilitating that as opposed to trying to repress it because the latter demonstrably simply does not work

>>2497212
rude

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>>2497208
>You responded to my post therefore you're triggered.

Actually I am just bored.

My point with the original post is to point out how birth control has contributed to one area of hedonistic tendencies.

You pointing out that it's not a shocking revelation is just unnecessary cattiness.

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>>2497217
You're either a tranny or a girl, in either case your opinion should be discarded.

OP here
Can you gooks and snowniggers fuck off my thread with your school whatever shit to another thread or board?

>>2497213
>the [current year], of course :^)

But why single out the early 20th century in particular then? By comparison to 2017 everything prior to the 1960s right down to the fucking Sumerians was a period of sexual and moral repression.

>but certainly freer.

That's extremely doubtful. The expectation of virginity upon marriage was as pronounced in the Middle Ages and Renaissance as it was in the 1900s.

>and then you have shit like the brothels and penis monster statues in pompeii

Of course there have always been seedy parts of town with prostitutes and so on, but these people were not a part of mainstream Roman society. They were legally required to wear special togas precisely for this reason.

>if you say so, nigga. religious authorities may, but people in general certainly don't
>nigga

Stop that.

Even in the 1950s, the majority of women who took part in Kinsey's survey were virgins upon marriage.

>better to spend public money on condoms and sex ed than welfare programs to bring up unwanted children.

If condoms are expensive for you, you shouldn't be having sex in the first place. Get a decent education and job first.

>people are gonna have non-marital/recreational sex anyway

Not to the same degree they would have if the negative externalities were not socialized and the negative effects incentivized by things like child tax credits for the poorest people.

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>>2497249
Lol medcucks can't compete

>>2497243
what is it about people who are different from you that makes their opinions unimportant?

>>2497249
Also reddit fuck off. We know that you are raiding this board atm and are trying to convert us to your convert degenerate leftism

>>2497225
>unintended consequence
You don't know that, though.

>>2497256
I was half kidding about the women part, but most are too emotional and empathetic to be considered rational agents. I've met many who I would consider rational, though.

Trannys are just men, and women to a lesser degree, with a mental disorder.

>>2497251
>If condoms are expensive for you, you shouldn't be having sex in the first place. Get a decent education and job first
condoms were just an example; I know they hand them out at health clinics but they can't be that bloody expensive ffs
>negative externalities were not socialized
please explain what you mean by this.
>the negative effects incentivized by things like child tax credits for the poorest people
but abstinence-only sex ed has been an abject failure in places like the south, how can you justify that?

>>2497268
I don't think it was part of a conspiracy. Although if I saw some real evidence from primary sources I could be persuaded.

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>>2496694
>what could have been...

>>2497275
>please explain what you mean by this.

Consider the cost to the public purse of subsidizing care and medication for HIV/AIDS patients alone, allowing them to live 20-30 years longer than they would normally be able to.

>but abstinence-only sex ed has been an abject failure in places like the south, how can you justify that?

I'm... not sure what relevance this has to the greentext you're replying to? I'm talking about how the welfare state as its set up subsidizes the births of the most stupid people.

>>2497288
>tfw leftypol want to destroy this

>>2497190
>What misleading statistics? Everything I have posted thus far is reputable and can be substantiated across multiple sources.
I didn't say that they were factually incorrect, I said that you're taking an overly simplistic interpretation of the data without considering extenuating circumstances
>My point is that if these issues were as crucially important (teacher salaries and class sizes) as you imagine them to be, Japan and Shanghai would not be operating such excellent school systems.
And my point is that in countries who are much more similar to ours culturally and ethnically, the pupils respond more favorably to different academic conditions and come out of the system with more dynamic skillsets than their Asian peers
>don't just flunk out of a mechanics question by saying
Again, all you are demonstrating by this is your breathless ignorance of how educational standards have changed in the past 10 to 20 years. "Playing to your strengths" means that you aren't making college bound pre-meds take the same classes as blue class kids who like to build and repair cars in their spare time.
>Well you aren't. That's why you let millions of random aliens into our countries and reduced our national identity to a travel document in the first place.
I'm a third generation immigrant to my country. My great-grandfather faced anti-Catholic anti-Italian prejudice in his lifetime. My father and I are model English speaking citizens. If you are an advocate for more cultural inbreeding that's between you and your elected officials but as for me, fresh blood is what has driven my country's economy to be the powerhouse that it is today
>y on British Muslims shows them becoming inter-generationally more radical, which is the exact opposite of what leftists said would happen.
And yet, countries which don't segregate their minorities into impoverished ghettos don't have this problem. In the United States we simply don't have that kind of problem with Muslims.

>>2497292
>Consider the cost to the public purse of subsidizing care and medication for HIV/AIDS patients alone, allowing them to live 20-30 years longer than they would normally be able to.
so we should just let them die? what if you got HIV from a blood transfusion? next you'll say we should discriminate based on how people got it. I can see several problems in how you'd even implement such a policy, to say nothing of the ethical concerns
>I'm... not sure what relevance this has to the greentext you're replying to? I'm talking about how the welfare state as its set up subsidizes the births of the most stupid people.
again, I inferred a pro-abstinence stance from the content of your posts. you seem to argue that people simply shouldn't have sex. (unless they're married and doing it specifically to have kids).
you also seem to be saying that the state should abandon those who engage in promiscuous behaviour to the negative repercussions of their actions.
why? are you a catholic priest or something?

>>2497359
>considering extenuating circumstances

Such as?

>the pupils respond more favorably to different academic conditions

There's no evidence of this. There's every reason to assume they would respond well to a disciplined class environment just like East Asian students would.

>with more dynamic skillsets than their Asian peers

Can you define what you mean by a "dynamic skillset" and list some of these hard skills that our students possess that Asians do not, and then provide some evidence for these assertions?

>"Playing to your strengths" means

Ok, then why did you frame it as "societies playing to their strengths" in the first place? East Asian educational systems already have different tracks for medical students, vocational students and so on, this isn't a distinction that exists between the East and West in the first place. Nor does it relate in any way to "playing to our strengths" as a society, since all societies have a division of labor in how education of different tasks is handled.

>My great-grandfather faced anti-Catholic anti-Italian prejudice in his lifetime.

I'm not interested in your sob story.

>If you are an advocate for more cultural inbreeding

Can you define what you mean by "cultural inbreeding"? Do you think countries with large numbers of immigrants from Pakistani, North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa are culturally more advanced than countries who do not have said immigrants? If so, can you explain how you arrived at this conclusion?

>fresh blood is what has driven my country's economy to be the powerhouse that it is today

Yes yes, just like all those random refugees were actually highly skilled engineers and doctors right? Whoops. 90% of the ones in Germany, according to their own labor ministry, are completely unskilled.

>In the United States we simply don't have that kind of problem with Muslims.

Wait until they're 7-10% of the population and you will, don't worry.

>>2497373
>what if you got HIV from a blood transfusion?

What proportion of HIV/AIDS patients get HIV from blood transfusions?

>you seem to argue that people simply shouldn't have sex.

I don't, I think people should get married in their early 20s and have lots and lots of good sex, and not the weirdo liberal nu-male kind where you let your girlfriend put a dildo up your ass either.

>you also seem to be saying that the state should abandon those who engage in promiscuous behaviour to the negative repercussions of their actions.
>why

Because it incentivizes more responsible behavior from others.

>>2497397
I'm done. this is a fucking waste of time. people like you lack empathy. you act like you've never made a mistake in your life, and have a view of human sexuality and morality than flies in the face of reality. I'm glad I don't know anyone like you irl. good day

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>>2497417
What the liberal says:

>you act like you've never made a mistake in your life

What he actually means:

>you act like you've never gone into a bathhouse and had unprotected anal sex with 10 men in your life

>>2497426
I've only had sex with one woman in my life. yes I'm mad. not because your arguments are irrefutable, just because you're so unbelievably stubborn and you remind me of the types of socially conservative politicians in my country I fucking despise

>>2497437
I'm glad I'm stubborn. The moment any ground is given to filth like you, you open the floodgates and turn a country into something resembling modern day Paris.

You need to be made to answer for what you've done to western europe and north america. For your crimes against the white race.

>>2497452
??? jesus wept, this is pathetic

>>2497452
>>2497470
addendum: I've just decided I fucking hate /pol/. stay in your containment board, you fucking regressive neckbeard

>>2497478
>regressive

Kill yourself for using this term unironically. Next you'll be calling him a "reactionary" for not wanting shitskins in Europe.

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>>2497417
lole

>>2497486
and I'll call you one too for calling anyone a "shitskin" unironically. I don't even care that you have me in your head as some kind of edgy antifa faggot. racists are awful people, no exceptions
>>2497507
been here for 7 years and it doesn't get any better. why I bothered wasting my sunday evening arguing with retarded skinheads on a Taiwanese fingerpainting forum I'll never know.

>>2497437
>and you remind me of the types of socially conservative politicians in my country I fucking despise

I'm not even Christian, I'm atheist. Social liberalism is just a festering cancer that destroys societies and can only subsist in highly wealthy ones where the dysfunctions it creates can be subsidized and papered over.

It is conservatism and right-wing thought that actually builds civilization, and this extends to sexual morality too. The success of civilization is contingent upon smart people having enough children and bringing them up in healthy, educational environments where they're taught good values.

Liberal societies quite literally encourage childlessness from all except the most subhuman lumpenproles, I mean lol, how long do you think this shitshow you have stringing along can sustain itself for?

lol looks like someone just popped in from reddit

>>2497517
>racists are awful people, no exceptions

Better get used to it mate, the next superpower is highly "racist":

https://www.gwern.net/docs/2013-anonymous-strategicconsequencesofchineseracism.pdf

>>2497517
>racists are awful people
Stop being such a misanthrope.

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>>2497517
>Don't want to become a minority in your own country
>this makes you an awful person

lol

No wonder you've only had sex with one girl. Are you even capable of dominating a woman, or are you a degenerate into "femdom" like most liberals?

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>>2497517
Here's a tip.

Just because someone says nigger or shitskins does not mean they are racist.

By that logic all rappers are racist.

Slurs are slurs. Would you call me misandrist for calling a man who murdered his ex wife a bastard?

You're such a trope hiding your own frustration by calling other people bigots.

I've skimmed through this thread. I still don't understand why hedonism is bad.

>b-but it doesn't preserve muh civilization and values!

So? Why do they need to be preserved?

>>2493103
Any civilization that you would say "has been" rather than "is" must necessarily not exist anymore-. AKA have gone to hell.

>>2497659
unscientific claims that it leads to societal collapse
best argument you get is >muh rome, but that's hardly scientific

>>2497295
>implying it's not already been destroyed

>>2496669
>60 years ago
pretty sure OP was talking about past civilizations

>>2497140
I don't necessarily disagree with you my man, but please understand that the picture you posted is undeniable bullshit, as there is no objective measurement of ''Scientific Advancement''
Progress isn't a straight line

>>2497659
>I still don't understand why hedonism is bad
That's because you're a short-sighted low IQ idiot that asks questions like;
>So? Why do they need to be preserved?

>>2497295
>leftists want to destroy america
>right wingers are responsible for allowing the destruction of america via multinational corporations gaining control of the government and making policies to suit their interests rather than society's as a whole

??

>>2496907
>So long as your actions or anyone else's do not impact others negatively you can fuck off and mind your own business
Except many of the actions you THINK do not negatively affect anyone actually do. A strong moral aspect to society (which by its name means it is more than just you, you selfish fuck) is vital for society to actually run

>>2493103
>Is hedonism more rampant todays world then in the past?

Modern day adults are having less sex than they did 60 years ago.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-millennials-less-sex-20160802-snap-story.html

Millennials are the most chaste generation since the pre war generation

this thread gave me a headache

>>2498172
False.

Sex is rampant, but people use condoms and abortions (murder of babies) because they don't want to actually take responsibility like an adult.

Generation today is degenerate, disgusting and immoral. Sex is a sacred act of love between husband and wife, not something to be doing with random strangers.

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>>2497390
>Such as?
the fact that even though the U.S system, the problem is its inefficiencies and the fact that we have pay middle men to make our public system look like a private choice, so the money isn't going to the right places.

That doesn't mean that the system can't work, or that more money can't be better spent, it means that we should kick the middle men out of our system and focus on spending money on the right resources.

>Can you define what you mean by a "dynamic skillset"
http://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2016/article_0008.html
Western countries still dominate the world in terms of innovation output, particularly Scandinavian countries like Finland and Sweden.

The Eastern model prizes repetition and discourages pupils from thinking in an unorthodox way, while the Western model prizes individualism and creativity, and the west is still the world's power house for innovation. Business success and entrepreneurial success is more than a math equation, it's a human equation which requires being able to read and understand what people's needs are, and how to adapt existing and emerging technologies to meet those needs. A corporation needs more than engineers and IT dweebs in order to be successful, they need salesmen, installers, managers and administrators who handle all the boring logistical details which are actually the most important aspect of what makes a business successful or not.

China's economy is still basically dependent on the fact that the United States is their number 1 customer buying all their cheap, disposable shit because the American economy is far, more dynamic and robust and has the financial prowess to spare. Not to mention they are dealing with far worse problems with pollution and all demographic issues caused by government social engineering programs and outright corruption in a central bureaucracy drowning in debt. Just because a kid can scores better on a physics exam doesn't make them management material

1/2

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>>2497390
>Ok, then why did you frame it as "societies playing to their strengths" in the first place?
Because our entire society is structured around rewarding initiative and individual expression, so we're not going to all move back out into the woods and give that up to go be paranoid forest apes in a uniform just because they think that would make society "moral", especially when our system, while far from perfect, still has a lot going for it and still manages to out-compete Eastern models in the ways we need it.

>I'm not interested in your sob story.
And I'm not interested in your half-baked rants about Muslims in ghettos when the way your country does it clearly sucks and you'd rather take the lazy coward's way out than examine the problem in an objective way

>Can you define what you mean by "cultural inbreeding"?
The city states of ancient Greece were xenophobic and suffered from chronic deflation due to population decline because the only way for them to make new citizens was for two citizens to have a baby. The city state of Rome grew into a power house because it was a haven city: where anyone could go to escape their past and start afresh, and the conquered peoples of yesterday were todays freedmen and servants and tomorrows citizens and legionaries. Their constant infusion of immigration provided fresh blood which continuously invigorated their society and allowed them to grow in ways that the Greek xenophobes could never fathom.

>Yes yes, just like all those random refugees were actually highly skilled engineers and doctors right?
Nope, most of those Catholic immigrants were working poor, and because they were able to gain their citizenship and have a say in how the system is managed, they became loyal to their new country.

>Wait until they're 7-10% of the population and you will, don't worry.
They literally said the same thing about Catholics in our country.

2/2

>>2497140
Somebody doesn't know their history. Try paying attention in history class next time; maybe you will be able to contribute something of values to a discussion.

>>2493103
The only reason it seems "Hedonistic" to you is because youre a timid loser and afraid of living and those people just live life

>>2493677
to each there you own you faggot

>>2498651
If by just live life you mean live like animals then I suppose you are right. However something that makes humanity unique from other animals is that we refrain from our base instincts. We hold back and think. Something you and these other degenerates clearly dont do. Perhaps this sort of animialistic thought process is part of the reason why so many people act as if they are sheep, instead of being a uniquely defined individual. Think on that it would do you some good to think every once and awhile.

>stormfront and christfags just shitpost in every thread now

jesus it's like fucking tumblr is here now, just the opposite side of the political spectrum

>muh cultural heritage
>muh virtues
>society is degenerate!! BECAUSE IM NOT GETTING ANY

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>>2498670

This. While society is pretty shitty, if people gave a fuck to talk to others and help them see what is best then we would be better off rather than bitching online.

And a lot of these people are just pissed /r9k/ fags who think every girl wants a "Chad". This is not the case. There are two major issues that cause you to not get women.

1. You aren't interesting or decent. That is it. I'm an ugly, fat shit with a small dick. I am far from an alpha yet I get girls. How? By being smart. I can talk to them, have engaging discussions, I'm smart, I actually act like a man rather than "REEEE BE MY MOMMY GIVE ME PUSSY MAKE ME FOOD FUCKING WHORE!!!!!"

That is infantile and effeminate and no girl wants that in a man. Simply acting like a man and going out into the world will help you getting women. Don't blame looks because if I look like Shrek and get good looking girls, you sure can't play that excuse.

2. You are degenerate as well and unrealistic. You feel entitled to fuck whoever you want and get mad if a girl does not like you. You don't act dominant because you care, you just want a mommy to take care of your needs and be coddled. You also go for vacuous bitches rather than look for a good relationship. And we see this with the blatant projection of chads and sluts. You aren't some nice guy, you are just a man who wants to be as degenerate as a chad, but lack the looks or social grace to do so. You are no better. If you wanted a nice girl and a stable relationship there are girls out the fucking ass who would date you. But you don't. You are just disenfranchised degenerates hounding after sluts and mad that you aren't getting them. If you seek a relationship for the right reasons and actually act like a decent, intelligent man you would find someone. The fact that you don't isn't an issue with society: it's you.

>>2498670
>jesus it's like fucking tumblr is here now, just the opposite side of the political spectrum
>le horseshoe meme
Yeah dood i HATE how two opposing sides oppose each other strongly. The fact that they're in opposition means they're exactly the same. *ugh* I need to watch some rick and morty to cool off

*drops mic*

>>2497185
Birth Control is a small amount of those chemicals.

>>2498494
>Because our entire society is structured around rewarding initiative and individual expression
>individual expression

There you go with the meaningless buzzwords again.

>still manages to out-compete Eastern models in the ways we need it

In what ways? East Asian societies are far more productive than Western ones by just about every metric available (better academic attainment, healthier while having a less bloated welfare state,

>when the way your country does it clearly sucks

Every country in Europe with a significant second and third generation Muslim immigrant presence has the same problem. America has nowhere near the same proportional numbers of Muslims as Western Europe does, so why compare the two in the first place? It's like implying Japan is a more peaceable society because they treat immigrants better, and not because there are barely any there in the first place.

>where anyone could go to escape their past and start afresh

This isn't actually true. Rome fought a war because they had refused to give their Italian allies Roman citizenship you idiot.

>Their constant infusion of immigration provided fresh blood which continuously invigorated their society

What gave Rome fresh blood was her fecundity in the mid Republican period, which was why she was able to muster so many men even without her Italian allies.

>and because they were able to gain their citizenship and have a say in how the system is managed, they became loyal to their new country.

And you're implying this is going to happen in Germany with illiterate Arabs when even third-generation Turks are significantly more likely to be welfare dependent and unemployed?

>>2498484
>the problem is its inefficiencies

So you're arguing the reason East Asian societies outcompete Western ones at primary and secondary educational levels is because they spend their budgets more efficiently? Do you have any sort of metric here to compare how efficiently educational budgets are spent by country, or is this just conjecture?

>spending money on the right resources.

More meaningless rhetoric. Politicians have been saying they can get more for X through Y social engineering program for decades now. It hasn't improved anything. The problem is with the underlying system itself that underpins the western world (liberalism).

>innovation output

How do they calculate this "innovation output" exactly? Because in terms of patents per capita and other engineering metrics, East Asian countries comfortably outperform western ones.

>discourages pupils from thinking in an unorthodox way
>Western model prizes individualism and creativity

Again, if all of this were true you'd expect western countries to outperform East Asian ones in terms of engineering innovation and productivity, but they don't.

>A corporation needs more than engineers and IT dweebs

It does, but these are overwhelmingly the most important people in most modern corporations (along with chemists and scientists).

>salesmen, installers, managers and administrators

LOL, so we may not have better or more engineers, but we have better "salesmen" and "installers" (when you say "installer", do you mean "technician"? Because East Asia has you beat there too, which is why 40 year old trains in Japan still run like clockwork whereas in the West whenever something goes kaput they just blow a ton of public money buying a new train from Hitachi again).

>China's economy is still basically dependent on the fact that the United States is their number 1 customer buying all their cheap, disposable shit

Chinese infrastructure and products are increasingly high quality, do not kid yourself.

>>2498484
>because the American economy is far, more dynamic and robust

Robust in the sense they borrow endless amounts of money and and have to ship in illiterate spics to saddle with new debt to keep the consumption-fueled shitshow running, or robust in the sense they're being vendor-financed by Japan and China in the first place?

>and all demographic issues caused by government social engineering programs and outright corruption in a central bureaucracy drowning in debt.

You think western countries are doing better demographically? Barely 10% of Western Europe will be white 200 years from now. And that great plan of importing hundreds of millions of people from the third world to help support an aging population you guys have? All it means is that you'll have an even bigger bubble of pensioners down the road to support because immigrant fertility declines inter-generationally.

>outright corruption in a central bureaucracy

Most of the most corrupt countries on earth according to the transparency index are liberal democracies like Greece. Funny how you fucked them over so hard yet suck Muslim dick on command.

>drowning in debt

1) East Asian debt is domestically held.
2) They actually have collateral to cover it, in the form of huge capital intensive manufacturing industries, and not just overvalued "social media firms" (kek).
3) Even by its most extreme calculations, it is nowhere near American debt levels.

Keep on hoping for that great chinese collapse champ. It's a coping mechanism, I understand.

>>2500099
>(better academic attainment, healthier while having a less bloated welfare state, more patents per capita, lower crime rates, less public spending yet vastly superior infrastructure, less social dysfunction like fatherless homes and so on).

>>2499318
A calling someone Reddit does not refute their point

B his point makes a lot a sense when we get threads like this in just about every interest board and /pol/tards do a lot of the same shit as SJWs, like calling anyone that disagrees with them apart of the opposite side of the spectrum and attacking any one with opposing views, all while being the loudest pieces of shit on the web.

>>2496954
Rep. of Ireland I assume?

>>2500135
>like calling anyone that disagrees with them apart of the opposite side of the spectrum

It's more that you're all liberals, and I mean that quite honestly without any hint of hyperbole. You're all part of a shadow cast by the politics of the enlightenment, which dominate contemporary European/Western thought to such an extent that most Westerners today are simply incapable of conceptualizing ideas outside of this framework, they bona fide believe anyone who sways outside of this overton window is either insane (quite literally) or evil.

>>2495451
Yeah resources are so depleted I had to pay a thousand dollars for a kg of steel. Retard

>>2493103
What's wrong with hedonism?

>>2493103
>Is hedonism more rampant todays world then in the past?
Collectively, it's likely the same as it was from the first people. I'm going with a version of Lucy.
>Have there been any atheist/hedonist civilizations
They are UNcivilized, so no. All the variations choose hell; every one of us choose to come back here.

>>2497295
no we don't

>>2500798
People who dont get to participate in it get butthurt

>>2497659
You admit is drags down civilisation.

Would you rather live in a grass but or a modern home?

>>2496669
It isnt that hedonism is on the rise its that shame is on the decline. People have always been pervs, the difference now is that they're not embarassed about it.

>>2497659
Because the betas that shit up this website are mad they can't get any pussy and it's societies fault!

The real problem with the modern world is everybody has been taught to blame their problems on everything but themselves. If any of these faggots in this thread want a family so bad they could just go out and get one, it isn't that hard, I've seen pathetic people snag women before. The real problem is that these people are failures, they have failed their biology and have failed to adapt to a world that is more rapidly advancing than ever.

I was linked to this thread from /pol/. Good job guys.

>>2497917
That wasn't left or right it was shills of any political affiliation who serve their master

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>>2500099
>There you go with the meaningless buzzwords again.
They're only meaningless to STEMautists who spend too much time memorizing math equations and not enough time reading people and get frustrated because human behavior doesn't arrange itself into discreet quanta which can be neatly categorized in ascending or descending order

>In what ways? East Asian societies are far more productive...
http://www.visualcapitalist.com/china-vs-united-states-a-tale-of-two-economies/
>While comparable in total size, the makeup of each economy is totally different. United States is a sophisticated and highly diversified economy that is based on services, finance, and consumption from the middle class. China has similar aspirations in the future, but right now it is resource-intensive growth engine making the transition from a manufacturing hub to a consumer-driven economy.

All your blabbering about China is shitposting and a false perspective. Their economies are growing for different reasons and as such, there are different pressures on their education system. China's growth is fueled by its gigantic population which is still in the process of industrializing. They need more STEMaustists because that's what you need when you're building shitloads of bridges, buildings, and modern infrastructure.

The West already has those things so their economy has transitioned to one mostly powered by consumerism. Different pressures on the economy, different pressures on the education system. Pressuring more people into STEM fields only adds more unemployed into already crowded fields. What you want are engineers who are there because they're the kind of people who have been tinkering with shit since they were kids and fucking love it and are constantly looking for ways to improve themselves

And Japan's problems with anemic economic growth and plummeting birthrates is even worse than it is in most places in the west, so you can't exactly blame those problems on Western individualism

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>>2500099
>Every country in Europe with a significant second and third generation Muslim immigrant presence has the same problem.
Because every country in Europe has the same solution for the problem: corral them into ghettos, alienate them from society, and treat them like permanent second class citizens with second class utilities and no means of improving themselves, and then act surprised when they lash out.

>This isn't actually true. Rome fought a war because they had refused to give their Italian allies Roman citizenship you idiot.
And guess what the outcome of the Social War was?

All of the allied Italian states being granted citizenship, even the ones who rebelled (even though they had to wait).

>What gave Rome fresh blood was her fecundity in the mid Republican period,
Flat wrong. It wasn't because Roman women were cranking out more babies than Greek or Carthaginian women, it was because people from all over Italy wanted to become Roman citizens and they were even willing to accept second class citizenship status in order to get there. 2/3rds of Scipio Africanus's army were non-citizens from allied cities.

>And you're implying this is going to happen in Germany with illiterate Arabs
Depends if Germany integrates or not

>>2501232
/4chan

>>2500110
>It does, but these are overwhelmingly the most important people in most modern corporations (along with chemists and scientists).

Yet more STEMautism. The most overwhelmingly important people in modern corporations are management. They're the ones who bring the capital and give your engineers a place to work. They're the ones who supply the vision and tell the engineers what they should be building, and vision is not something you'll find in your physics textbook. They also supply the focus and discipline necessary to make sure that your engineers aren't spinning their own wheels and your IT dweebs aren't sitting there all day arguing about Battlestar Galactica while they're on the clock. They also supply the coordination so that your engineers are doing what the designers are telling them to do, so that they're not wasting resources on over-engineered shit that nobody except a STEMautist wants. Engineer's job is to make sure the numbers physically add up, important yes, but not more so than making sure all the dollars add up, or else that sad little engineer is going to find himself out of a job when the plant closes.

>Most of the most corrupt countries on earth according to the transparency index are liberal democracies like Greece
More lies
http://www.transparency.org/cpi2015?gclid=Cj0KEQjwhpnGBRDKpY-My9rdutABEiQAWNcslGi5tHqLwv_lbFpQiVJZoy025dHZsJAnN1sEiD9qSA8aAjq08P8HAQ#results-table
Western countries dominate this chart for being clean and free of corruption
China is 83rd, below almost every western country. Greece is 53rd.
Do you have any more falsehoods to peddle?

>How do they calculate this "innovation output" exactly?
By not being an autist with poor reading comprehension skills

>>2501136

this

>>2496684

This is the most hilarious horse shit ive ever heard.

>>2500175
>You're all part of a shadow cast by the politics of the enlightenment, which dominate contemporary European/Western thought to such an extent that most Westerners today are simply incapable of conceptualizing ideas outside of this framework

You do realize that you are attacking the core values America was founded and theorized on correct?

>>2503687
What about it is horse shit or hilarious? I am primarily referring to western society in prior to the 60s and in most cases it's quite true that families were larger and older couples avoided sex as to not have unwanted pregnancies. Birth control removes the fear of pregnancy.

>>2503733
Not him, but...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_birth_control#Ancient_world
Birth control and contraceptives have existed since ancient times

People in cosmopolitan environments have always had between 3 - 5 children about 10 years later than their rural peers after a period of experimentation, with an exception being societies where powerful church leaders bullied urban poor into not using contraceptives, resulting in a huge underclass of hooligans and street rats.

This is basic human behavior. The difference is that in the past few generations virtually the entire human population now lives a life that can be considered "cosmopolitan" and people of certain persuasions long for the less complicated rural life and come up with moralistic justifications for feeling that way.

>>2503793
Birth control wasn't nearly as reliable or available until recent times except maybe in a few ancient civilisation for brief periods.

I agree with the benefit of it preventing a lot of urban poor though, that certainly is a good thing to curb.

My point isn't to say that it's been a net bad, it may very well be a net good in many ways, but it does allow people to be more hedonistic with less consequences.

>>2503842
>Birth control wasn't nearly as reliable or available until recent times except maybe in a few ancient civilisation for brief periods.
>On December 5, 1484, Pope Innocent VIII issued the Summis desiderantes affectibus, a papal bull in which he recognized the existence of witches and gave full papal approval for the Inquisition to proceed "correcting, imprisoning, punishing and chastising" witches "according to their deserts". In the bull, which is sometimes referred to as the "Witch-Bull of 1484", the witches were explicitly accused of having "slain infants yet in the mother's womb" (abortion) and of "hindering men from performing the sexual act and women from conceiving" (contraception).
http://web.archive.org/web/20080523174317/http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/mm00e.html

It was widespread enough for the pope himself to declare a literal witch hunt

>My point isn't to say that it's been a net bad, it may very well be a net good in many ways, but it does allow people to be more hedonistic with less consequences.

perhaps, though it's a (highly visible) minority of individuals, overall.

Wow, this is a pretty fast thread for /his/.

>>2501136
>hedonism isn't on the rise
>they are just doing more hedonistic things

Really activated my almonds

>>2498730
>no replies
Wow, /pol/ would have a meltdown over this.

>>2498730
>>2505841
It's the same projecting bullshit as always.
The reason people bitch about degeneracy is that they want to find loyal mates which has gotten significantly harder in the last decades.
Loyal mates, trust, love and enough children to support us when we're old. That's it. No Chad and Stacy, bull/cuck/slut crap.
We want a decent society for most people, companionship, friendship and a social fabric to build upon like our forefathers and mothers did.
Socialism, Communism, mass migration, uncontrolled borders, low birthrates, and, you guessed it, loose sexual morals are diminishing our chance of achieving that.

>>2496856
right i suppose the higher IQs that kept them from getting preggers are directly corelative with their degeneration

>>2493299
>monogamous
Literally everyone cheated on everyone else. It was so bad Augustus started threatening to kill adulterers for breaking his moral laws.