Julian the Apostate

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Here is a short timeline to remind everyone about the main events:

>c.300 AD
Experts estimate that only about 7-10% of the Roman population is Christian at this point, and they are mostly centered around several urban areas in the east.

>324 AD
Constantine becomes sole emperor, and begins to openly practice Christianity. He founds the new imperial capital of Constantinople in Christian territory, and convenes a massive council of Christian bishops to reorganize the church and establish a unified doctrine.

>361 AD
Constantine's nephew, Julian, inherits the throne. He reopens pagan temples, withdraws funding from the Christian churches, and begins restructuring the pagan faith. He writes a lengthy, scathing critique of Christianity, known as "Against the Galileans," which was so thorough that it was widely considered to be irrefutable. He happily invites all Christian exiles back into the empire with open arms, knowing full well that there heretics would cause intense in-fighting among the different denominations. He supports the Jews in planning to reconstruct the great Temple of Jerusalem, knowing that this would disprove a key prophecy made by Jesus. He bans Christian teachers from teaching the classical pagan texts, essentially preventing them from getting the education necessary to rise up in the government. And these are just a few of his tactics.

>363 AD
After a rapid string of victories in his war against Persia, Julian is unexpectedly struck by a stray javelin during a skirmish and dies.

>after 400 AD
By this point, many pagan practices have been outlawed on pain of death. Christianity has spread across the entire empire, and paganism is only followed by the most sincere philosophers.

The original fedora-tipping neofagan loser.

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>>2478463
>Against the Galileans
Anyone care to tell me any reasons to live when we know works like that and most of the Epic Cycle etc are forever gone. The Library of Alexandria and everything in it is forever lost.

Why should any of us go on? Life is worthless.

Nothing of value was lost.

>>2478463
>He supports the Jews in planning to reconstruct the great Temple of Jerusalem
>knowing that this would disprove a key prophecy made by Jesus
>But his ambitions were cut short due to his sudden death
>unexpectedly struck by a stray javelin during a skirmish and dies.

It's no coincidence. The tribulation was not ready to be fullfilled. So God simply cut his life short.

fedora tippers and pagan filth will argue this.

>>2478507
Actually christians destroyed all the copies. Christians destroyed ethnic European culture and beliefs, the only difference between a Muslim and a Christian is about 400 years

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>>2478564
>Christians destroyed ethnic European culture and beliefs
>Implying Romans didn't do the same throughout history

Fuck off and die.

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>>2478507
It's heartbreaking. There must have been so many amazing literary works that we don't even know about, that would shed so much light on ancient history.

I mean, there was a Greek kingdom established in modern-day Afghanistan, isolated for centuries from the Greek homeland, where the rulers converted to Buddhism, ended up conquering huge areas of land, and accumulated immense wealth.

How do we know about all this? Because they left a bunch of coins behind. That's it. There is basically no other surviving classical literature that even mentions them. I bet there was some crazy shit they wrote about.

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>>2478564
>>2478507
Most of the ancient literature that was lost was due to apathy and disrespect from Christians. Because you needed to have scribes repeatedly copy texts if you wanted them to survive, and after the philosophical schools and private libraries were closed, only the church held the books. And, in their infinite wisdom, the priests decided that what we REALLY needed was yet another copy of Psalms, instead of (for instance) the plays of Menander or the books of Livy.

...having said that: you're right, "Against the Galileans" actually is one of the few texts that Christians explicitly banned and ordered to be destroyed. We only have an outline of the first volume (there were three total) but apparently whatever information that they were trying to hide was so indescribably damning that it was seen as an existential threat to the entire Christian church.

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>>2478507
>>2478463
This just proves God's existence and his cheeky demeanor.
His one last open swing at the world before leaving it to faith.

>>2478603
>indescribably damning
More like correcting.
Some of the few points we know of were kind of retarded.

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>>2478626
Actually, one of the points we know Julian makes was pretty revolutionary and only recently did scholars realize that it was correct.

Specifically, Julian is the first person to theorize and provide evidence that early Judaism was NOT monotheistic, and the earliest Jews simply believed YHWH to be their personal protector diety, just like the other nations of that time. He pinpointed the change in Jewish theology to the reforms of Josiah in the 7th century BC

Have you considered that Julian angered God, and God reacted accordingly? If you read the Old Testament, this is not unprecedented.

>>2478563
>>2478608
>everything that supports the existence of the Christian faith proves god's existence
>the decline of the Christian faith proves god's existence

Good fucking lord, it's like everything proves the existence of God to you people.

Is that what people mean when they talk about magical thinking? Assuming there's a supernatural agency to fucking everything that's all pointing to a single conclusion?

>>2478662
It's a theory completely without merit.

But then again, I don't have "spiritual discernment" (I.E. I wasn't indoctrinated to believe that god is behind every goddamn gust of wind and under every rock).

That is interesting OP, I hadn't heard about this guy before.

>>2478662
god isn't real, you retarded christcuck

>>2478389
Julian was one of the most based emperors who ever lived.

>>2478478
you mean the original war hero, willing to sacrifice his life rather than cower behind the lines.

>>2478697
While I personally admire his attempt to make pagan thought flourish again, I most respect his attempt to make the cities of the empire less dependent on the capital for survival and thus more self-sufficient.

>>2478569
go back to /pol/

>>2478715
Not him but...
>/pol/ bogeyman
sort yourself out

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He also had a pretty solid sense of humor.

I remember one good part in his satirical work called "The Caesars" was when Trajan is being introduced to Zeus. Silenus makes some joke along the lines of "Ah, they say that he has had many conquests, and he has pierced countless men with his spear! Hmm, I'd keep an eye on Ganemede if I were you, because Trajan might try to conquer him next..."

Okay, the joke actually falls a little flat when I try to tell it, but still.

>>2478662
It might help to look up the Texas sharp shooter fallicy when looking at questions like this.

If you don't then you either run into contradiction or have to make special exemptions.

For instance I've seen the Islamic conquest of the east orthodox part of the petarchy as proof of god being angered by their heresy and as them being the true chirstians for receiving so much persecution.

Likewise if we follow your logic heretical and deabauched religious leaders and Arian emporers must be correct or otherwise god would not have blessed them with long lives and wealth

>>2478759
He wrote a book about his beard that was actually an allegorical jab at his political contemporaries, didn't he?

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>>2478704
Yeah, even if his religious policies hadn't succeeded, I think he definitely could have reversed the policies of "the Dominate" and gone back to the period we now call "the Principate". Ever since Diocletian, the emperors had become these oriental-style absolutist monarchs, cut off from the world and viewed as perfect, godly beings who lived in luxury, were pampered by eunuchs, and oversaw every aspect of the vast state bureaucracy. It was much more efficient to have the individual territories oversee their own governing, although the local noblemen apparently were infuriated by the fact that they now had to actually deliberate and rule.

>>2478773
Yeah, known as "The Beard-Haters", which admittedly sounds like some sort of terrible rap song. It's related to the stuff I wrote above, because while he held court in Antioch, the townspeople continually mocked him for acting like a normal citizen instead of an awe-inspiring divine king. So his response was to write a sarcastic, self-deprecating piece where he laments the fact that his hands were stained with ink from writing and callouses from hard work, and the fact that he wore a scruffy philosopher's beard - and then reflecting on the fact that it would surely be much better for the state if he shaved, wore beautiful jewelry and perfume, and demanded that all his subjects kneel before him, like his uncle Constantine had done.

>>2478666
Tips fedora

>>2478478
>neofagan
Paganism still had an extant tradition at this point, there's nothing "neo-" about it.

>>2478662
I thought God only specifically killed Jews who angered him. Is there anything in the OT about his killing non-Jews through any means less general than a flood or a Jewish army?

>>2478800
honestly, this is the first I've ever really learned about him and he sounds absolutely based

>Could he have succeeded in reversing the growth Christianity? Could he have prevented the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, by saving us from the catastrophically incompetent emperors who came immediately after him?
I get the feeling from this that you know extraordinarily little about the fall of the western Roman Empire.

>>2478569
but this is true

>>2478569
They didn't. The Romans actually adopted other beliefs and cultures into their own.

>>2479311
What we have from "Against the Galileans" is actually really interesting. I encourage you to look it up.

His arguments are really fucking varied too.

>>2478759
I've also read that he used to invite various christian scholars, only to make them argue about their doctrine and then laughing about it.

>>2478463

>c.300 AD
Experts estimate that only about 7-10% of the Roman population is Christian at this point, and they are mostly centered around several urban areas in the east.

>324 AD
Constantine becomes sole emperor, and begins to openly practice Christianity. He founds the new imperial capital of Constantinople in Christian territory, and convenes a massive council of Christian bishops to reorganize the church and establish a unified doctrine.

>330 AD
The Roman Empire splits into two

>376AD
The teetering empire fails to stop the flow of Goths and other barbarians

>387AD
The empire falls into civil war

>395 AD
Theodosius I the final emperor to rule both parts of the empire dies.

The speed with which Christianity destroyed Western civilization is breathtaking.

>>2479420
Correlation does not equal causation.

>>2478865
still faggy

>>2479543
True, but then again it's not like the Orthodox Christian Eastern Roman empire did anything to build on it's heritage and the only thing they really managed was the occasional resurgence before being killed off for good.

>>2479543

That doesn't mean Christians weren't the cause.

Has any of you read Ibsen's Emperor & Galilean? Ibsen himself claimed it was his best work, and I agree. It's absolutely miles above all his other works, and I think Bloom would be embarrassed of picking Peer Gynt as part of the Canon over E&G, had he only read it. Never performed as a play because it would take over 24h and modern actors are plebs. Anyways, how historically inaccurate is it?

>>2479549
>>people who adhere to religions I don't agree with are faggots
I'll remember this shit the next time you fuckers post dayoos vult maymays while calling neo-pagans larpers.

Faggot.

>>2478389
No he wouldn't have changed the rise of Christianity nor would he have stopped natural disasters that led to the fall of rome

>>2478389
Oh look, another

>le christian was fall of rome

Is this was /his/ has regressed to?

>>2478389
>incompetent
>Valentinian the GOAT
Pick one

>330 AD
>The Roman Empire splits into two
But that's wrong

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>>2478702
You are like a little baby.

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>>2478666
>I-I-It's a coincidence ok!
>G-God isn't real! The javeline j-just hit him randomly!
>HE WOULD HAVE PROVEN THOSE KIKE WORSHIPPERS WRONG IF HE REBUILT JERUSALEM!!
>IT TOTALLY WASN'T ANYTHING SUPERNATURAL

>IT'S NOT FUCKING FAIR, PAGANKEKS!!!

>>2480549
>holy fuck, a guy who fought at the front lines died in a war
>this clearly proves God exists

So, what does the decline of European Christianity prove?

>>2479543
I suppose it's only a coincidence that Europe only truly flourished once the reformation, the enlightenment, and the French revolution defanged he church?

>>2480646
>what does the decline of European ""Christianity"" prove?

If anything, it proves that the world is going exactly like predicted. More and more people will choose foolish beliefs and other ""spiritual"" accomodations instead of believing the word. Tribulation will commence.

>>2480549
Y-yeah you got them, he couldn't have just died in a battle where both sides were trying to lill each other.

Oh wait. Kill yourself.

>>2480733
Thank you for proving my original point. I couldn't have done it by myself.

>>2480733
>Buy your bonus buckets now, it's the end.

Funny, they've been saying that for thousands of years. It's always supposedly right around the corner but it never comes.

>>2480733
It's no big thing to predict that some religion, morality, philosophy, whatever "ethos", will eventually decay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ek5DUpF-uM

>>2478666
Haha, okay, Satan.

>>2480667
>truly flourished

define

>>2480667
The Reformation and French Revolution brought about nothing but devastating wars.

>>2478662
Retard.
A friendly reminder that this is a board about history and humanities, not religious zeal and bigotry

>>2478576
Well aside from one of the basic texts of Buddhism being a dialogue between a sage and the Greek king, you're right.

>>2479313
I get the feeling you are a Christian, so please, ullustrate us any capable Roman emperor later than Julian, apart from Majorian?

>>2479543
Well, but you agree, the coincidence of the spread of Crhistianity and the subsequent fall of the most powerful state ever created in history relatively to its time is quite incredible, it's also quite incredible believing that the barbarian invasions would have alone managed to take down the empire when it had endured worst situations multiple times...
Really, the only thing that could have taken it down was internal turmoil and Christianity undoubtably created the eventuality, causing infighting between the citizens, softening of its costumes and unnecessary reforms of its organization.

>>2478463
>He supports the Jews in planning to reconstruct the great Temple of Jerusalem, knowing that this would disprove a key prophecy made by Jesus
So... God killed Julian so that the prophecy would remain true?

>>2479650
Proofs, argumentations?
That's not a good post faggot.

>>2478576
holy fuck
i didn't know about Greco-Bactria Till now
This country is so cool
>made contact with Han China and caused the Silk Road to be built
>was highly urbanized and called The Empire of a Thousand Cities
>Wealthy as fug
>THAT ART
Please give sources so i can further read on them

>>2481133
>subsequent fall
Yeah, in 1453.

>>2478389
He sanctioned the rebuilding of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem but the project ended with his death.

>>2478662
lmao

>>2478686
Euphoric

The OG fedora.

>>2478463
You fail to mention how many people are following an eastern religion I.E. not European paganism. This being said European paganism was already so bastardized by more popular eastern deities it isn't even relevant,

>>2478603
More like apathy from an already decayed paganism and Germanic barbarians.

Christanity breathed life back into Europe. The ERE lasted another thousand years, and only after atheism took over society in the 18th century did things start to go to shit again.

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>>2478564
>Christians destroyed ethnic European culture and beliefs
kek. The glories of Christendom far surpass its predecessors. Christianity transmitted the best of Greco-Roman culture and Judeo-Christian culture to civilize the germanics throughout the middle ages. There would be no Western culture as we know it without Christianity.

>>2478389
This is what should be said. Julian Made a point to revive "paganism" (just a form of Neoplatonism, pagan religions have little to nothing in relation to one another) because it was already decayed. Sort of like Christanity now. Any fedoras or neopagans who say Christanity is anti-intellectual or not philosophically elegant are incorrect. Scholasticism was embraced by Christanity for a reason.

>>2481720
Duh, there would be no scholastic system as we know it without it. Europe's first universities grew out of monasteries.

>>2478576
Ancient Greece combined with Buddhism is literally !GODTIER!

>>2481173
t.Greek
Not many people in Greece know either. The power combo of Ancient-Hellenic culture and Buddhism is just too cool for this planet...

>>2478389
>Julian goes on to discuss the creation myths of the Greeks and the Jews, citing the account of the Book of Genesis. He ridicules the idea of literally interpreting the Jewish account, claiming that it is not only logically impossible (75B)- he asks how the serpent was able to speak a human language (86A)- but that is also blasphemous and insulting to God (89B). A true God, he says, would not have withheld the knowledge of good and evil from men or have been jealous of men eating from the tree of life and living forever. Indeed, this behavior shows God to be evil and the serpent, giving man the enormously valuable gift of differentiating good and evil, to be good.
>Julian also brings up questions from the account of how God created the world. Where, he asks, did the abyss, the darkness, and the waters come from that are mentioned (49C)? Where did angels come from, since they are not mentioned in the creation account? To Julian, the account of Genesis is not about a creator God, but about an inferior god who merely shaped the matter that had already been created.
>The God of Moses, being a god who chose the Jews as his people and gave them alone the gift of prophecy and his teachings, is merely the god of the Jewish people, not the god of any other race of men (106D). Julian finds it absurd to believe that the God who created everything in the world, who describes himself as being a jealous God (106D-E), was content to confine himself to caring for a small tribe in Palestine while letting all races besides the Jews worship false gods for thousands of years (106D).
> if the Jewish God is the only god, the Jews have not accomplished as much as other races, such as the Greeks, Phoenicians or Egyptians (178A), and why the Jews have been subjugated by so many other races (213A).
Christfags absolutely btfo.

>>2481687
>and only after atheism took over society in the 18th century did things start to go to shit again.
>Europes collective peak of influence, power and culture is unarguably the 19th century

Thats a wew lad

>>2478563
>a stray javelin is god
christfags, everyone

>>2481698
>civilize the germanics

>And thus for almost a millennium, German princes fought amongst themselves. All this, in a desperate bid to prove which of them is more relevent and rule over all germany.
>And because they couldn't handle any banter the serius discussin became a joke. This brings us to the Second Reich.

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>>2479340
... except the Carthaginians.

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ITT: neo-pagans/atheists getting butthurt

God wins.
Satan loses.

>>2481782
>Europes collective peak of influence, power and culture is unarguably the 19th century
Is that a joke? Perhaps from a simple material perspective. Compare the influences of new imperialism (Anglo, German, French Republican, American, Italian republican) on the world compared to old imperial regimes of Rome, HRE, ERE, the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, Russia, Spain and Portugal.

You'll find the lasting affects only served up anti-European sediment across the world. No meaningful cultural legacy from the 19th century empires was left behind. Nothing to be proud of for the various provinces.

>>2478507
I can't believe that Sappho had a huge critical edition of her poems that are almost all gone.

Like fuck.

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>>2478564
>mfw slowly start to realize this is true
>mfw reading about destruction of pagan idols and temples
>mfw reading about cutting down of holy trees
>mfw reading about how christianity spread by the sword in many cases

the more i read about european history the more pagan i become

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Recently finished this -- a good, friendly-but-not-credulous bio of Julian.

>>2481950
Christianity didn't destroy paganism. It assimilated it. That's why most churches are built over pagan temples. Read the Divine comedy. It's pretty clear Dante belived just as much in Greco-Roman mythological concepts as he did Christian. Pagan gods never went away. They were simply changed to represent artistic and metaphysical concepts instead of objects of devotion. The same is true for Germanic paganism. The gods became elves or fairies. They never went away.

This is the natural order of things. Was it possible the new religion of Europe (and by the end of the WRE Europe needed a spiritual revival. That's why Julian had to bother attempting to restore Neoplatonism in the first place) could have been more like Hinduism and integrated previous religious customs more obviously? Sure. But part of Christianity's strength and staying power was its unaffirming wavering of itself.

>>2481997
Catholicism assimilated paganism.

Real Biblical Christianity survived as a lamp in the dark, until the Reformation when it became equally as strong as the Pagan whore.

>>2481997
why change it? why fix what ain't broke. fucking christians

>>2482011
It was broken. That's why it needed a change. Whether by Julian, Christianity, or some other eastern faith. Perhaps gnosticism or Manichaeism,

>>2482025
>paganism was broken, that's why we had to destroy 99% of Greco-Roman literature

>>2482025
reeeeeeeeee

>>2482030
Christians did not destroy 99% of pagan literature. A historically revisionist strawman. Christians used pagan literature.

Political upheavals have more to do with the fall of Rome. The library of Alexandria was destroyed several times. One of which by Julius Caesar.

Daily reminder the Roman Empire lasted another 1000 years after Julian.

>>2482042
I've heard it put forth that christianity destabilized their system of slavery and citizenship, indirectly leading to the fall

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Galilaeans#Synopsis_of_Against_the_Galileans

Just read this small synopsis of the first (out of three) books. Christianity absolutely BTFO.

>Cyril claimed that it was one of the most important anti-Christian works that had been written, and that it was widely considered to be irrefutable, while Libanius praised it as an even greater work than the critiques of Porphyry of Tyre.[6]

>>2482077
Yeah, as a broken husk that pales in comparison to the prestige that is once had.

>>2482113
>ERE is a broken husk
Wew. Even tell its dying breath while being assaulted by the Turkish hoards, the ERE was as noble as ever.

>>2481750
>>2481740
I wish I could ask a divine entity to bring the country back ;_;

>>2478389
Quite a tragedy.

His attempts to bring back the Empire to the glory days of the Antonine Principate only to face institutional opposition at every turn is a tragic reminder at how far Rome had fallen from it's Apogee.

>>2481042
Both vastly weakened the church (the reformation more-so) and the aftermath of the French revolution set the tone and structure of the European nation-state.

It was only once these were accomplished that Europe truly became anything of note, rather than a retarded upstart when compared to China.

>>2481698
Literally wrong, religion is just a formal legitimalisation of what people, who follow their economic interests according to their ability to be rational, have on their minds anyways. Western culture would probably be at roughly the same point without it, it would just look a LOT cooler.

Are you really that fucking ignorant of history? Do you think he was the first to try to stamp out Christianity in Rome?
I honestly can't tell who is more stupid fedoras or the people who take the bible literally

>>2478608
>God invents shit faith
>Nice guy invites everyone to civil discussion about the shit faith
>God kills nice, smart and polite guy
>You worship this Islamist-tier savage
wew lad

>>2482254
Imagine Epicurians debating with jhain Aghori's. Cynics with buddhists...

>>2482254
It`s porn imagining this country.
Hindu-Hellenic Buddhist kingdom. Just saying it makes me hard and high!

>>2478389
>Could he have succeeded in reversing the growth Christianity?
No. It took approximately six seconds after his death for his edicts and whatnot to be reversed. Paganism was not united at all and Julian would've basically had to create a Pagan Church to rival and the Christian one. Not to mention that his death was due to his own stupidity.

He was a fairly good military commander and governor type but proved very quickly that was his ceiling; an above average man of above average capability elevated to a status unbefitting him because he happened to be a proto-fedoralord.

>>2482607
Yeah, I don't get it. Like, that one guy seems to be lauding god for destroying literature. Who the fuck does that on a history and humanities board? Who the fuck can claim themselves to value any school of thought and champion the destruction of literature?

>>2480733
>Europe rule the World un der Christianity
>Europe Abandon Christianity
>Europe is invaded and raped by shitskins

It prove that once you dare to apostazy, God will strikes you by the most merciless and vicious mean

>>2480646


This >>2482725 was meant for you

>>2482725
>Europe is invaded and raped by shitskins
Thank you for proving our point once again, friendo.

>>2482521
>Spain and Portugal control 1/4 of the world
>nothing of note
>what's is Venice, Genoa?

>>2482753
>Poland have good Catholics
>No shitskins raping and invading
>Germany and France are hardly Christian
>Shitskins raping and invading
Really makes you think

>>2482799
Go to France, go to Germany, then go to Poland and see where people are happier and more prosperous. Additionally, Christian Eastern Europe never needed immigration to fill their rape and robbery quotas :^)

>>2478603
it's only thank to Islamic scholars that what you call "Western Civilization" exist, they translated greek ancient culture and passed it to further generation of european scholars

>>2482011
Classical paganism was long in decline at that point, the various eastern mystery cults were far more active.

>>2482725
this is true, not because of any mystical reason, but because secular populations have far fewer children than religious ones, causing short sighted western governments to import people in order to keep the economy growing

>>2482882
>thank muslims for pagan greek works

ok mehmet

>>2482832
As a French, i would kill to live in 100% White Poland

>>2482832
>where people are happier and more prosperous
Laughable at best and pity at worst.

>>2481133
>and the subsequent fall of the most powerful state ever created in history relatively to its time is quite incredible
Arguable always a united China until the eighteenth century.

>>2481892
>HRE, ERE, the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth,
>any effect on the world

>>2481845
This story is ridiculous. Of course David was gonna win, he basically brought a gun to a knife fight.

>>2482113
Only true after 1204.

>>2482662
>elevated to a status unbefitting him because he happened to be a proto-fedoralord
Pretty sure he inherited it.

>>2483389
>This story is ridiculous. Of course David was gonna win, he basically brought a gun to a knife fight.
You fail to see the point. The story demonstrates Davids wit in bringing the sling compared to Goliath's hubris.

>>2479549
Lol

Look who's talking.

>>2482882
Actually, many important translators were Christians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunayn_ibn_Ishaq

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qusta_ibn_Luqa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_Al-Khuri

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bishr_Matta_ibn_Yunus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_ibn_Adi

>>2481779

Absolutely
Based

>>2481950
You have no idea how far the rabbit hole goes.

But yes, Christniggery is so alike Islam it's frightening.

literally only atheists like julian.

People that matter think he was an idiot with a fitting death.

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Christianity was not the cause to the collapse of the (Western) Roman Empire. It was a response to it.

The Roman Empire collapsed in the 3rd century. It was a century marked by civil wars, usurpations, coups, foreign invasions, internal rebellions, peasant uprisings. The authority of the Roman state disappeared, the ancient pagan temples were discredited, the cities had been voided of civic spirit by the tyranny of previous Emperors. As it turned out, the only authority worthy of note remaining was the Christian church. People turned to bishops and to Christian associations because they actually provided relief and support in a time of catastrophic crisis in their world.

That was also why Julian was doomed, Christianity wasn't an alien corrupting the soul of the Greco-Roman civilization. That was already dead.

>>2483480
Like Christians, for example?

>>2483506
Yes, Christians think Julian was a moron. We laugh at him. Glad the retard died early.

I can't find it, but Julian had a neat lamentation about whenever he had to do military things. Something like, "Oh Plato... What a job for a philosopher."

>>2483496
Christianity effectively broke the spirit of the Romans, who by the 5th century had become but a shadow of their former selves.

>>2483409
I see.
Most references I see basically have it that David would have not won had God not intervened.

>>2483513
Where is the love thy neighbour dictum when you need it eh?

>>2483516

Under these melancholy circumstances, an inexperienced youth was appointed to save and to govern the provinces of Gaul, or rather, as he expresses it himself, to exhibit the vain image of Imperial greatness. The retired scholastic education of Julian, in which he had been more conversant with books than with arms, with the dead than with the living, left him in profound ignorance of the practical arts of war and government; and when he awkwardly repeated some military exercise which it was necessary for him to learn, he exclaimed with a sigh, 'O Plato, Plato, what a task for a philosopher!' Yet even this speculative philosophy, which men of business are too apt to despise, had filled the mind of Julian with the noblest precepts and the most shining examples; had animated him with the love of virtue, the desire of fame, and the contempt of death. The habits of temperance recommended in the schools are still more essential in the severe discipline of a camp.

>>2483519
nah, Christianity crept into an already broken spirit and turned it away from its ancient ideal

>>2483519
What are you talking about?

Rome still continued to rule Europe with an iron fist through the Papacy. Popes controlled kings and emperors like puppets. It wasn't until the Protestant Reformation that Rome stopped being the central and authoritative figure of Europe.

>>2483536
>Popes controlled kings and emperors like puppets.
The Pope was essentially an instrument of the ERE and then of Hapsburgs.

>>2483540
Source?

Weren't the RCC and Byzantine rivals? Schism, crusader sackings and all that.

>>2483519
No one can do that. The spirit of the Romans was broken before, as it can be noted in the poetry of Juvenal.

It's the same with Europe nowadays. It wasn't Islam that broke with the spirit of Europe. It was broken before, Islam merely occupies the gap left by Christianity, as Christianity once occupied the gap left by paganism.

>>2483480
how did he have a fitting death? he didn't even persecute christians like previous emperors had done, let alone the persecutions Constantine and his sons had done. other than a ban on christians teaching the classics, all he did was remove the state sanctions supporting the church. truly a more honorable figure than most rulers immediately before or after him

>>2483513
So fucking edgy, Jesus

>>2483513

Yes, Jews think Jesus was a moron. We laugh at him. Glad the retard died early.

>>2483513
>But I tell you, everyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Fool!' will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But whoever says, 'You moron!' will be subject to hellfire.
>Matthew 5:22

>>2483565
Because he denied the truth and tried to reinstate paganism with all its wickedness (demon worship, idolatry, temple prostitution, child sacrifice, etc).

>>2483576
>Julian
>a brother
That verse is talking about fellow believers. Julian was not a Christian.

>>2483561
The pope was appointed by the ERE for a while, and then became a tool of local Italian families, then notably crowned Charlemagne, son of the man who gave the Pope land, and who incorporated the kingdom which the Papal states were incorporated in into his own, Emperor of the Romans. This isn't the action of a man pulling the strings. The entire history of the Papacy, except for a few intercessions, is a history of a political prisoner.

>>2483590
Notably, some of these few intercessions are also some of the greatest periods for European culture and arts in the pre-modern era.

So much for the notion that the Church held Europe back. Europe holding the Church back held Europe back.

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>>2483590
what you smoking nigga

the pope held absolute power in europe for centuries

>>2483611
Christianity was devised by the Roman nobility(the cardinals) for one purpose, to control their masses of slaves, (93% of the population at the time) and christianity used imposed ignorance, poverty, and terror to accomplish it's purpose.

>>2483579
I'm sorry you think anyone who believes something different from you deserves to be smited by God with a "fitting death". regardless of whether christianity is true forcing it on people is utterly despicable, especially in light of the centrality of martyrdom to christianity. you pricks attack pagan emperors for persecuting christians and then think that Constantine and company are justified for doing the same damn thing. most of what Julian did was simply ending this. he even allowed MORE christians into the empire, as christians had been in a constant shit-flinging context with eachother deriding eachother as heretics and exiling them, who Julian then allowed to return

>>2483561
the crusader sacking was more of a Venetian thing. The pope even excommunicated the entire crusade after the debacle

>>2483629
Which is it was illegal to read the Bible in the vernacular.

When people began to read the Bible for themselves, the Vatican lost its power.

>>2483647
jesus man there have been several vernacular translations of the bible pre-Luther, the first in the 400s for the Goths. I mean the Vulgate itself is a vernacular translation of the greek text

>>2478507
>are forever gone
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Against_the_Galileans

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I have a strong suspicion that "Against the Galileans" is blown wildly out of proportion by modern atheists, and that if a competent apologist was confronted with the text he or she could respond to it well enough.

I bet Aquinas could do it in under an hour.

>>2483942
Reminder that the few excerpts we know of only survived because they were Julian's weakest talking points.

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Julian the Wise is one of my favorite Roman Emperors, and definitely in the top-tier.

10/10 husbando material.

>>2483999
Why do you think that is the case ?

Do you think all religious debates can be resolved through aristotilianism ?

>>2481174
Ok, memesupreme...

>>2483372
Yeah ok man.
Fedoratipper.

>>2478463
Sounds like he shouldn't have tried to rebuild that temple.

>>2481779
But these arguments suck. Mostly they're good for serving as a window into how a traditional pagan mindset might react to Judeo-Christian monotheism. Though it's weird he takes issue with the snake as he seems to believe in other supernatural shit.

Man, Gibbon sucks off Julian and shits all over christians.

>>2484654
>it's weird he takes issue with the snake as he seems to believe in other supernatural shit.

There isn't an academic consensus on this, but I tend to agree with the view that (european in general or greco-roman at the very least) paganism wasn't theistic in the same manner as modern religions. Their mythologies were allegories and their gods (Jungian) archetypes. The masses might've believed in them as real, but theologically(or rather philosophically) that was not what they were meant to be. Just as today you have a shitload of Christians, especially in poorer, rural areas that mix theology with mysticism and superstition, so did a lot of pagans in the past.

It's kind of weird for atheists to like Julian, considering he thought the existance of God was pretty fucking obvious to anyone with a functioning brain.

>>2484686
They didn't have any alternative views for how the world came to be or why there was lightning and shit. If everything is an alegory, where is the explanation for anything? This veiwppint only seems feasible in the context of modern scientific knowledge.

>>2484709

Many atheists tend to style themselves 'anti-abrahamic', so Julian is suitably "their guy".

>>2483402
I should've said "elevated to a status by modern fedoralords unbefitting him because he happened to be a proto-fedoralord himself". That better?

>>2483480
浄土仏教[ Buddhist here. Julian's cool

>>2484717
>They didn't have any alternative views for how the world came to be or why there was lightning and shit.
Doesn't mean that paganism evolved as a way of answering that. Don't forget that 'religion' existed for as long as humanity did(animism, fetishism etc).

You could make the case that the likes of animism and fetishism did the same thing, but while there might've been a subconscious desire to better understand the world embedded into them, all forms of faith go beyond rationalizations of the physical world.

>>2483626
It held soft ideological power across Europe and hard power on the Italian Peninsula. But that temporal power on the Peninsula was contested by the Excharate of Ravenna and the Lombards, sapped by Guelph and Ghibelline wars throughout the high middle ages, and then turned into loan collectors for the Medici which ushered in humanism. A fitting end.

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>>2484549
Aquinas is more than Aristotle. I'd argue Aquinas transcends Aristotle, even while he uses him as a framework.

Regardless, he's the archetypal example of someone who's extremely smart and also has tremendous faith.

>>2484740
Fair enough. All I'm pointing out, though, is that Julian seems awfully selective about what he thinks ridiculous given his unironic adherence to stuff like humanity being born from Zeus' blood and such.

>>2484774
Well, here's the thing. Julian's arguments could be either religious in nature(as we'd understand that term today) or simply a matter of narrative coherence, in the same way you could argue about the coherence of any fictional mythos (Tolkien, D&D etc) in-universe.

>>2483999
Why do you think it's blown out of proportion by atheists? It was Christians describing it as irrefutable and refusing to acknowledge all of his arguments (opting instead to destroy it).

>Aquinas

He could probably defeat the philosophy, but not every criticism of Christianity is philosophical. For instance him pointing out that the Jews didn't start monotheistic is not something Aquinas would be capable of addressing.

>>2484748
But why do you think that Julians work are blown out of proportion?

>Aquinas is more than Aristotle. I'd argue Aquinas transcends Aristotle, even while he uses him as a framework.

The scholastics might complete Aristotle but they hardly transcend him.

>Regardless, he's the archetypal example of someone who's extremely smart and also has tremendous faith.

My point wasnt that religious people are idiots but that arguing along Aristotlian lines isnt all that persuasive or necessarily sound. Indeed he failed to gain traction outside of the Roman Catholic Church let alone adherents from other religions and view points.

Your comments seemed to show the Christian equivalent of the biggoted atheists who just hand wave Aquinas because he is not a materialist

>>2484654
> Now it is true that the Hellenes invented their myths about the gods, incredible and monstrous stories.
>Compare with them the Jewish doctrine, how the garden was planted by God and Adam was fashioned by Him, and next, for Adam, woman came to be. .... This is wholly fabulous.
>And in what do such legends as these differ from the myths that were invented by the Hellenes?
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Against_the_Galileans
He acknowledges that the myths surrounding the Hellenic Pantheon are myths. He calls out the Christian assertion that their stories are true while every other religion's is somehow ridiculous and impossible.

Either way he seems pretty based.

>>2482799
>Poland is poor
>France and Germany is not
I am 23 yo Polish historian and next year i move for half year to vienna thanks to Erasmus. I am going to learn germanian language and then i will escape from this pile of hatred fuel by catholic church called "Poland". To be honest most of us woud agreed for every amount of refugee only to live like rest of Europe. All of you cannot say life on Poland is good because when compare to the West it is shit

>>2485321
Work on your English too m80.

>>2481086
>Well aside from one of the basic texts of Buddhism being a dialogue between a sage and the Greek king
What?

>>2483158
You could literally move there any day you wanted. Unless you are under 18, in which case you should fuck off anyway.

>>2485321
you are right but really do work on your English dude, no offense

>>2480549

I mean it was probably more because he didn't strap on his fucking armor

>A true God, he says, would not have withheld the knowledge of good and evil from men or have been jealous of men eating from the tree of life and living forever. Indeed, this behavior shows God to be evil and the serpent, giving man the enormously valuable gift of differentiating good and evil, to be good.

>Julian also brings up questions from the account of how God created the world. Where, he asks, did the abyss, the darkness, and the waters come from that are mentioned (49C)? Where did angels come from, since they are not mentioned in the creation account? To Julian, the account of Genesis is not about a creator God, but about an inferior god who merely shaped the matter that had already been created (49E).

>The God of Moses, being a god who chose the Jews as his people and gave them alone the gift of prophecy and his teachings, is merely the god of the Jewish people, not the god of any other race of men (106D). Julian finds it absurd to believe that the God who created everything in the world, who describes himself as being a jealous God (106D-E), was content to confine himself to caring for a small tribe in Palestine while letting all races besides the Jews worship false gods for thousands of years (106D).

>Julian then discusses how the Greeks view the gods as being the delegates of the creator God, each responsible for caring for different nations, cities, and races of men (115D), which explains why the character and customs of men are so different (131C). He mocks the idea that a literal interpretation of the story of the Tower of Babel can adequately explain why men differ so greatly, saying that it does not explain why men have different morals or laws or why they have such marked physical differences (138A). Instead, he believes, different gods responsible for different races and nations are responsible for mankind’s differences (143A). The God of Moses does exist, but only as an inferior to the God of All (148B).

(cont)

>>2485375
>Julian expounds on this idea, asking why, if the Jewish God is the only god, the Jews have not accomplished as much as other races, such as the Greeks, Phoenicians or Egyptians (178A), and why the Jews have been subjugated by so many other races (213A).

>Julian spends time discussing how, even after having nominally embraced Jewish traditions, Galileans have really rejected them and only accepted their blasphemy of the gods (238A-B).

>Along with abandoning Jewish teachings, Julian also charges the Galileans with abandoning those of the original apostles (327A). He claims that no apostle claimed that Jesus was God until John, and he probably only did so to clarify an important dispute within a disunited church (327A). Galileans also disobey the words of Jesus, as they revere tombs and the dead, while Jesus referred to gravesites as places of impurity (335B).

christcucks fucking annihilated

>>2478569

Hitler was inspired by Christianity and 2000 years of Christian anti-Semitism

>>2485433
You mean Catholicism and 2000 years of Catholic anti-Semitism.

He even modeled the SS after the Jesuits.

>>2479613
>That doesn't mean Christians weren't the cause.
Yeah, it's not like the Empire was a massive clusterfuck for hundreds of years already, or anything.

>>2485433
>>2485443

Woah... so this is the power of reddit.... not bad

>>2485375
>>2485378

Julian was fucking savage.

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>>2485672

>>2485701
wtf i'm a pagan now

>>2485701
>this quote has a quirky font and some words are colored so it's professionally done and must be right

RELIGION BTFO LOL!!!!!!

>>2485733
So savage he's still anally devastating christcucks in current year.

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Holy shit, a thread about religion without C.S. Lewis/Creationism shitposting.

>>2478389
>Skilled General
Where does this meme come from?

>>2484789
On what basis is he judging narrative coherence? On one hand, the snake is the most clever of animals, it is said. Furthermore, taken at face value, it's eating of the fruit indeed may have given it the power of speech. Even Eve was surprised about it.

Then of course there is the usual interpretation that the serpent was Satan, which Julian seems to completely ignore.

>>2484817
It was one guy who made that claim, and possibly to bolster the percieced importance of his own work.

I'm also not sure how Julian can figure strict monotheism happened so late in the timeline. The Jews and Israelites certainly flirted with idolatry over and over again, but the basic tenents for official monotheism were there since early on.

>>2485309
Not really. He believed in the creation myth that Zeus birthed humanity via hia own blood drops and compared it favorably with the Eden story because he thought it better explained the diversity of people groups.

>>2485701
So I gather from this that Julian completely missed one of the major themes of the Christian belief system, was being willingly obtuse, or was just really buttmad and resorted to ancient shitposting.

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>>2485754

>>2485701
I like Julian and his ideas in general but >>2485947 this anon is right. Humans being inherently God's chosen is one of the first appearing themes of the Old Testament. This is trying to refute Christianity by placing it into the framework of Paganism. What comes to my mind is that paint macro with the strawman guy ending his monologue about his arbitrary systems with 'oh you can't looks like I win again'.

>>2485321
Oh sweet summer child...
Goymany is an infuriating shithole, the wealth of which lives on borrowed time.
t. polack living in germanistan since '98

>>2486155
There's also the general Christian notion that, at this point, humanity doesn't deserve any high praise or value by its own merit.

>>2486188
Lmao why did you move there then instead of your neosoviet shithole, you are a ridiculous leech holy fucking shit

>>2483534
So beautiful! I love the idea of this bookish nerd who had never even held a sword before suddenly being put in charge of an army, but simply through hard work and by putting the axioms he had learned about in his studies to good use, he gained the respect of these soldiers, along with stunning victories in the field.

Julian's victory at Strasbourg is particularly noteworthy. He was vastly outnumbered, and his troops attempted to flee at several points in the battle. The Germans even penetrated his front lines at one point, effectively splitting the ranks in half, which typically spells disaster. But in each case he personally placed himself in front of those troops and rallied them to continue the battle. And in the end, after a long day of fighting, he lost less than 300 troops, and were mowed down or drowned as they fled, losing most of their troops.

>>2486155
while this is an assessment I agree upon, it would have been nice to have more fragments of Contra Galilaeos

>>2482832
you have never lived in Poland, have you?

>>2486253
Agreed. As a Christian, I wish the response of the churches hadn't been to totally eliminate it. Seeing some of the great Christian thinkers have a go at it would have been fascinating (assuming the lost arguments weren't so abysmal as this one).

>>2486197
I did not move here out of my own will, as I was underage back then.
This postnazi, mentally ill and mudslime incubator shithole sucks dick and claims to be great on top of it, just to add insult to injury.
No better than the postsoviet shithole.
It can take it's shekels and chocke on them, and it soon will.

>>2486257
no, but I live in Hungary. It has the political system (or non-system) Poland is headed for and AFAIK had a higher standard of living when it started. Or maybe not, but not worse.

>>2486289
why don't you move now that you could?

>>2486320
Soon.

>>2486155
>Humans being inherently God's chosen is one of the first appearing themes of the Old Testament
Yes, and this theme is the same level of arrogance as a frog assuming that the pond was ctested for his benefit. It being a core belief doesn't make it immune from criticism.

>>2486340
Well humans were the only species that were known to have some form of sapience at the time. Not like anything comes close even now. Evolution was not a known theory. And this isn't really philosophical criticism of the notion, it takes for granted, wihtout explanation, that the Pagan POV is the right one and just juxtaposes the two.

>>2486377
>Well humans were the only species that were known to have some form of sapience at the time.
So humans elevate something important to humans. Again, this is not unlike a frog being most concerned with the particular croaking of frogs.

And it is a good question he asks. Why should humans assume the world was created specifically for them, and not for the frogs or the bees? We all agree that this is an underlying assumption of Christianity, but we can also ask why this is the case.

>>2485433
>2000 years of Christian anti-Semitism
yeah let's ignore the shady shit done by the Jews that made them hated and the foundation of communism

>>2486458
you're probably the guy who said Lenin was Jewish

>>2486465
>Lenin founded communism
and how is he not a Jew

>>2486404
Humans in this case elevated themselves because they saw the world as a static and confined thing in which they were irrefutably and infinitely superior to everything else. You could ask "but why does X mean Y" regarding superiority without and end, but every school of thought uses some self-evident axioms to expand upon.

Also it's not like I want to defend this notion, but Julian started off with saying that the idea of an incarnation of God as a human is absurd. The idea of this God is already explained within the contexts of the Bible. This specific God within this specific context incarnating that way is logical. If it was an actual attempt at quality debate, it would attack the whole premise of their theology and not an event in the middle of the story that is derived from the qualities of its framework. And it would be doing so in a much more analytical and elaborated view, so as to make someone without already having the thought-framework of Paganism understand his point.

>>2486404
We can also ask, why shouldn't it be this way? What justifications can be offered for frog or bee world vs human world? Julian offers none, only angry indignity. Why are the Greek gods (which he believed in despite his more allegorical take on the Hellenistic mythos) oddly human?

>>2486471
he was a quarter Jewish and not raised under Judaism. that's hardly Jewish. it's even an acceptable amount of Jewish blood under the Nuremburg laws

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Completely disregarding religious issues, it is hard to imagine that the empire would have ended up worse off if Julian had reigned for longer.

Bear in mind that after Julian we had a string of emperors who were just catastrophic. Of course, Valens precipitated a completely avoidable war with the Goths that completely changed the course of history. But also Arcadius, Honorius, Valens, Theodosius II, Valentinian III - these were men who delighted in their many hobbies and pampered lifestyle, but left the actual governing to their female relatives, their scheming eunuchs, and their barbarian generals. They preferred to pay tons of gold in tribute to the barbarians rather than fight them. Even in religious matters, instead of uniting Christendom, they actively caused at least three major schisms that splintered the church, never again to be reunited. My favorite example from this period is Theodosius II, who was so disinterested in reading is official documents before signing them that he once accidentally authorized his wife to be sold into slavery. None of this is terribly surprising though, since all of these men gained their position simply by being born, not thralign any sort of merit.

In light of this, I think Julian would have been the better option. He admired the so-called "adoptive emperors" and was so strict in his chastity precisely because he knew how dangerous it was to leave a male heir who was unqualified for the throne.

>>2486500
the quote is saying that it's arrogant for humans to assume that they are the special ones made in God's likeness, it doesn't intend to give an argument for another animal because it is merely pointing out the baseless asssumption

>>2486527
Why is his position supposed to be any less ridiculous?

>>2485766
Lewisposting is considered shitposting?

>>2486800
the way that the C.S. Lewis poster that's been here the past few days does it, yes

>>2486548
why is it rediculous? outside of his specific argument, I do think it is rather bizzarre yet fitting that humans have usually depicted the gods as human and usually act like humans. the physical incarnation of Jesus also is bizzarre for this same reason. of course this goes against paganism and christianity, but at least the greek gods would take other forms than human.

>>2486811
Why does every thread about religion have to be ruined by such people? We had Constantine and now we have Lewisfag, and every thread related to Christianity is full of poor apologetics and theology. I wish we had more Scholastic fags instead of those shitposters.

>>2486854
Their default forms were human, however. Their mannerisms and personalities and mentalities all the more so. Talk about anthropomorphic; Julien has no room to stand there. It also seems questionable to insist that God would not have made humans in his image considering humans were, even back then, observably unique among the creatures. It would be easy to argue the idea that God's form was, say, a frog or something else equally random.

>>2487066
*something equally random isn't far more absurd.

He's the result of weak European leaders who don't do enough to keep middle eastern religious extremists from subverting European culture.

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>>2485654
goddammit anon that made me laugh

>>2486509
one drop rule m8

>>2487066
the difference of course being that (in Julians time) christians claimed that Jesus was God (the creator God, the supreme God who made everything) and in traditional greek belief, the gods were themselves created and were not supreme although they had vast powers.

>>2487396
>christians claimed that Jesus was God (the creator God, the supreme God who made everything)

They still claim this now.

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>>2487408
alright, i wasn't sure. but then like i said Julian's statement makes sense. the old greek gods were created. they were antropomorphic usually, but could also assume the form of animals. Jesus was a human and was supposedly God. the supreme creator. Julian is saying that it is unreasonable that God would take the form of a human and that the christians are silly and egocentric when they are claiming such. I gotta agree with the guy, seeing all the creatures of this world and all the hundreds of thousands of galaxies in the universe it and considering the vast array of lifeforms that probably inhabit them it's ridiculous to say the least that God would take the shape of a human.
Really made me think, activated my almonds, and i am now a Pagan.

>>2481133
The Christianization of Rome happened at the same time as a slew of major overhauls in the government of the Empire, and was in fact an effect itself of many of those changes

But no, clearly Christianity was THE cause of the fall of Rome

>>2487408
They claim an aspect of God (who is the a supreme infinite being more like the monad ) incarnated as man.

>>2485672
Can we say though that he attacks the Hebrew mythology and people who take it seriously?
I am an Atheist, and to be honest, I believe our basis of Atheism are the teachings of Jesus.

>>2481779
literally cringed reading his stuff

>weak

>>2487699
>thousand years later
>still no counter-argument

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Why Christians get triggered by someone who reigned for only 2 years and, definitely, was not succesfull at neither reverting back to paganism or hindering Christianity is beyond me.

But I do speculate a reason, Julian could be considered the next philosopher-king after Marcus, all his weird views on neo platonism aside this guy was a man of letters, wrote satire, panegyric, polemic, hymns, he tried to live frugal and cut the excessive spending.
On the other hand you have Christian emperors of 300s who are mostly living lavish, and mostly uneducated brutes up up until 400s.
I think Christians would love to have their own Julian. An emperor who lived Christlike, put away the luxury, who was an intellectual etc. Sadly they have to wait until Leo the Wise for such an emperor (Justinian was too controversial and Anastasius too 'heretical' by their contemporary time)

Oh if only he was not an apostate...

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>An alternate history of the reign of Julian "the Philosopher"

Based on his young age and the average lifespan of emperors (the ones who died of natural causes) I'd estimate that Julian would likely reign until some time between 390-400 AD.

Had Julian succeeded in his Persian campaign, he would have placed Hormizd on the throne and likely claimed Mesopotamian territory north of Ctesiphon. The population of the new territory would have very mixed feelings, since they were mostly Christian. On the one hand they might despise this pagan emperor, but on the other hand they might rejoice that the brutal persecutions by Persians were finally over. Hormizd would not be a popular choice among the Sassanid nobility, but at least for a time there would be peace on the eastern border.

By obtaining peace on both of the empire's borders, Julian would have ensured the loyalty of both the eastern and western troops. He would attempt to return much self-governance to the local assemblies, even though they would object to the extra workload. He would restructure the pagan religious system - for instance, most pagan priesthoods until this point were hereditary and manned by disinterested nobles, whereas the Christian priests were chosen, often from amongst the commoners, for their zealous beliefs and charismatic personas. He was abnormally energetic and hated the palace life, so he would likely emulate Hadrian by personally manning any military campaigns that came up, and in the mean time he would travel around the empire.

We know that he despised hereditary rulership, and wished to return to the policies of the adoptive emperors. However, no matter how chaste he was, it would be abnormal for such a young man to remain unmarried. He would need an empress who was pagan, devoted to chastity, and perhaps intelligent enough to aid in some matters of state. I propose that Hypatia of Alexandria would be a natural choice.

I will explore other parts of his reign in a later post

>>2487396
Sure, but that just reduces his commentary to, at best, whining that the Judeo-Christian God didn't conform to his standards.

>>2487958
I'm not triggered by him, in fact I wish his arguments survived so they could be studied. I will say that what did make it doesn't seem particularly threatening to the Christian faith and so am puzzled at how atheists seem to love the guy.

He seems like a pretty decent ruler, religious vindictiveness aside, but....

Shouldn't have touched that temple.

>>2488088
He was very threatened, unlike other pagans Julian knew he was fighting a religious war, while most pagans were apathetic (they learned to be compliant, as a roman historian who focused on paganism Ramsay Mcmullen would say) had he lived a bit longer. He knew where to hurt Christians, even Christians admit his devilish cunning of `tolerating christianity` while letting in old heretics in to incite further conflict. He also tried to establish an unified pagan religion, pagan charities etc to mimic and combat Christianity.

Now whether he would succeed or not is a different think. I wouldn't know what would happen if Julian reigned for 30 years, most scholars think Julian had a very good chance of reverting back to paganism as christians were not a majority (yet) and many would follow alongside the emperor, similar to reverting back to Hinduism in Asokas kingdom. But thats just a what if.

Regardless, he was very threatening to christianity, that was my main point and this is something I believe even christian writers contemporary and post julian christians admitted to.

Atheists etc like him for the same reasons I wrote above, a learned emperor, lives frugally, writes a lot of work, so it is philosopher king, educated emperor romanticsm mixed with pagan romanticism.

>>2488129
>He was very threatened,*
threatening*
sorry for the brainfart

>>2488129
>Julian knew he was fighting a religious war
A religious cold war, anyway. One that he started for no apparent reason.

>He knew where to hurt Christians, even Christians admit his devilish cunning of `tolerating christianity` while letting in old heretics in to incite further conflict.
I agree with this, but was more referencing his writings. In particular the ones that survived, given the arguments therein were pretty poor.

>Now whether he would succeed or not is a different think. I wouldn't know what would happen if Julian reigned for 30 years, most scholars think Julian had a very good chance of reverting back to paganism as christians were not a majority (yet) and many would follow alongside the emperor, similar to reverting back to Hinduism in Asokas kingdom. But thats just a what if.
Actually most scholars don't think he could have succeeded with that pagan church bit, partly because of that pagan apathy you mentioned earlier, party because paganism wasn't some big unified religion the way Christianity was, and partly because, like Christians, pagans didn't make up the majority of the empire. The numbers weren't there.

I also have to wonder how his "tolerance" policy would have worked out in the long run. He wasn't murdering Christians this time around, but he was certainly reducing them to second class citizens.

Either way, I doubt he would have lived long enough to see things play out, given his unfortunate tendency to lead from the front. Especially egregious because it appears he was the only one pushing this agenda. He was the only one who cared and with his death the whole enterprise stopped in its tracks.

>>2488181
Let me correct myself a bit By most scholars I quote Kenneth harl, you uses the exact term, so Im basically a 3rd narrator, according to kenneth harl (who also narrates) that most scholars believe Julian had the possibility of reforming and rallying paganism, and Christianity was not that grounded in the roman society. It is in `End of Paganism` lecture series of Great Courses, Harl might give some references in the guidebook, or you can email him on the subject.

Im skeptical because I don't like what ifs. Because if you open that subject it will move in a lot of different places. I'm not saying that had julian survived the persian campaign, there would be no christianity etc etc, who the fuck knows.

But he is remembered and loved for his personality than his actions, I doubt gibbon or modern pagans, atheists would like Julian if he was another soldier emperor brute who wrote nothing, lived lavish..

anyways some minor points
>A religious cold war, anyway. One that he started for no apparent reason.
I think it was very personal, he fashioned himself after old emperors and good old days of Roman Empire. I doubt he was thinking politically when he was trying to revert back to Paganism, it was very personal, hence it seems like `for no appernt reason` thats just my theory
>I also have to wonder how his "tolerance" policy would have worked out in the long run.
His intention was to greate diversions in church, let the christians fight among themselves, so he would not have a unified front against him. Hence he invited the nestorians who were kicked out of Constantinople back.

Regarding his persian campaign, I do believe he had a good chance of succeeding but he tried to do too much in too little time, both in persia and in his other actions in general.

Anyways, one last thing, Julian was one of the few emperors whom he have a lot of the personal writings survived, between Marcus Aurelius and Constantine Porphyrygenetos I can't think of any emperor.

>>2485940
Could you source that? I can't find it anywhere in the Against the Galilean texts I'm looking at.

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>>2487958
It's hilarious, because in his morals and lifestyle he was practically John Chrysostom. Isnt that what Christian should want from their ruler? Constantine murdered his own son and wife, Constans murdered his brothers and many other members of his family. These Christian emperors also executed and exiled countless good honest priests simply because they were considered heretical at one time or another. Then Julian is despised and hated for welcoming back these priests with open arms? What sense does that make?

I ask you, what does the bible have to say about this? Was Cyrus hated simply because he was a magian? Or was he admired for his just reign, allowing religious freedom, and allowing the Jewish temple to be rebuilt?

>>2488387
I agree with your first paragraphy, Most emperors were nigger tier, hence Julian stand out for reasons other than his paganism.

Cyrus's magianism/zoroastrianism was not as strict and organized as Sassanian's religion, had Cyrus born around 700-800 years later, and was still the just and good emperor but only for the Sassanian Iran-shahr, Christian would still not like him because he would be a rival.The Cyrus of old persia was not a rival to Christianity. But Julian was

Also you have to give credit to Christians that some even admired him for his other qualities. I searched google for about 5 minuts but couldn't find it, but believe there is one latin christian author who wrote something along the lines of

I remember a good emperor, who was wise and brave etc, he was loyal to the world and rome but unloyal to the one true god..

If a late antique lit scholar comes to this thread I'm sure he can cite it, but anyways there were christians who `gave the devil his due`.

>>2488387
>Isnt that what Christian should want from their ruler?
The whole "trying to subvert and destroy their religion because of personal hate-boner" bit seems like slightly more prescient factor.

>>2488509
but he didn't persecute christians

>>2486490
>every school of thought uses some self-evident axioms to expand upon.
They're not self evident though, which is the entire crux of Julian's quote here. They are based on a very specific, not at all inarguable (as evidenced by him bringing it up at all and modern understanding) understanding of the universe. Put another way, you are saying that God incarnating into human form to save humans from the punishment he gave humans makes perfect sense in the context of the assumption that God created the universe for humans, thus the criticism is superficial and baseless. But you're missing the point that the context/framework is also under attack, with the statement about frogs and worms.

>>2488691
He prevented them from reading non-Christian text . This de facto barred them from advancing in the Empire.

>>2488721
yet this is much more mild than previous pagan rulers, let alone what christian rulers had been doing

>>2488731
Imagine being prevented to advance in life. This is a huge blow.

>>2488737
I mean advance socially and economically.

>>2487066
>observably unique among the creatures.
Observable unique from a human perspective on the creatures. Insects outnumber and outweigh us many times over, that makes them unique. Water bears can survive in space unaided, that makes them unique. And you might argue that sapience is somehow more special than any of the other qualities species might have, but you do so specifically from the perspective of a species that survived as a result of their complex minds and sapience. It's like saying your local sports team is better than any of the other ones because it is local to you, or that your country's exports are the most economically important in the world because they're your country's and they benefit you.

His point wasn't that God was actually a frog or a worm. It was to point out the arrogance of assuming God created universe specifically for the benefit of humans, rather than humans being one aspect of the world.

>>2488756
From a Christian perspective, God created the universe to glorify himself. Humans are special because they are capable of knowing and loving God.

>>2488737
Which Christian emperors had happily done to non-Christians, or much worse. It's not great when the shoe is on the other foot, is it?

>>2488763
What are you talking about? Up to Julian there had only been two Christian emperors. None of which did that.

>>2488761
See >>2488713
Both the specific idea of the incarnation into human form and the greater framework of God creating the world for humans specifically are under attack here. Just saying that that is the context doesn't solve anything.

>>2485433
No, he was more inspired by Rome itself, its Paganism, India's Paganism, ans so on, Germanic Paganism, and so on.

>>2488773
Jesus (who is best described as an aspect of God, the Logos) incarnated to teach humanity how to live and overcome death. I don't see what's so controversial about an aspect of God incarnating out of empathy and love considering >>2488761

>>2479340
No, they assimilated them into their system. That makes them subservient to them.

>>2480646
The end of days.

>>2488790
>No, they assimilated them into their system.
Not really. If anything eastern mystery cults assimilated the Roman pantheon. Sol Invictus is not a native deity.

>>2488795
Assimilation does not mean getting rid of their gods. It means making their gods their own, but still subservient to the emperor.

>>2488770
Constantinus II attempted to institute a death penalty for attending pagan sacrifices, did he not?

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>>2478463
>most sincere philosopher

>>2488788
Why should the frogs and worms suffer death for the human sin? Could a bee sin and bring it into the world, forcing humans to have to suffer death and childbirth? Or perhaps sapience is required, so it would need to be an elephant or a dolphin that sinned? Do they not need to be taught how to live (because dolphins could sure use some moral guidance). And so on and so on. Again, Jesus incarnating for the benefit of humans makes perfect sense in the context of the universe being created especially for humans, but it is that context itself Julian is criticizing.

>>2488832
The context is the Universe is created for God. The animals don't have a soul like humans due and aren't immortal, and there toil is part of the life cycle.

>>2488832
Dolphins are amoral. They're intelligent but cannot be 'morally guided'.

Sapience is not morality, nor does morality arise from sapience.

>>2488841
>The animals don't have a soul like humans due and aren't immortal
Again, this is a convenient way of drawing a line between humans and other animals that doesn't actually have any basis other than arrogance.
>>2488868
>Sapience is not morality, nor does morality arise from sapience.
Not exclusively, no, but dolphins also live in social structures with actions of reciprocity etc. Action we can recognize as based on morality are by no means exclusive to humans. This is the same problem as above.

>>2488879
>that doesn't actually have any basis other than arrogance.
So Julian disagreed with Christian metaphysics? Thats fine. But it's not without basis. Humans have an immortal soul. Animals do not. Plants do not.

>>2488879
>being social is the same thing as being moral

The Western Roman Empire fell because the Gothic and Germanic tribes held an overwhelming military advantage. Rome's predominant spook did not influence the outcome.

>>2488882
>on the basis of this concept that may or may not be true, and on which I cannot offer proof, I am correct

>>2488882
Yes, Julian pointed out the baselessness of a fundamental Christian axiom.

>>2488884
No, morality emerges out of the successful interactions of an intelligent social species, as unsuccessful social interactions reduce survivability. If we cooperate, we survive better than those who do not, thus "cooperation" becomes a moral good in the surviving human brain. The same happens to other intelligent social species, but people are hesitant to call that morality because of the embedded cultural assumption that humans must be special and apart from other animals.

>>2488917
>No, morality emerges out of the successful interactions of an intelligent social species,
Fuck off Sam Harris.

>>2488868

Not true, mammals are capable of many kinds of moral reasoning (loyalty, fairness, care for young and kin, etc etc). You don't need sapience to be moral, and in fact it's probably a hindrance since you can use reason and logic to deny the moral course of action and instead act purely selfishly.

>>2488884

It is. Morality is an extension of sociality.

>>2488910
>>2488917
Its not baseless. Obviously humans are different. Humans are the only things on earth which pray.

Animals create, eat, sleep, fight, are social, play, have feelings. None of them pray.

>>2488926
Being social is not morality.
>>2488928
No it isn't. You're re-defining it.

>>2488929
The existence of a particular social action proves a very specific metaphysical concept?

>>2488938
>The existence of a particular social action proves a very specific metaphysical concept?
The two aren't related but something I wanted to point out. Everything humans do, animals seem to do in a primitive form except praying.

As for the basis of the the souls in various beings, you'll have to research that on your own if your intersted.

>>2488929
Considering the fact that elephants have funerals, I'm not convinced this is the case. Regardless, we could just as convincingly say that water bears are unique in that they are the only animal that can survive in space unaided, thus they get closer to God than any other species. Thus, being unique, the universe was made for them.

>>2488946
>Considering the fact that elephants have funerals, I'm not convinced this is the case.
so your going to say without any proof that elephants pray simple because they mourn their dead?

You have no proof and you know it. Nothing indicates it what so ever.

>>2488944
Are you so sure of that? Humans are inferior compared with ants in their ability to dig tunnels.

>>2488950
No, I am saying that the fact that elephants have a specific mourning ritual for their dead in the same way that humans do, and that prayer is a particular type of ritual that is largely concerned with death, I am not convinced that the statement "humans are the only animals to pray" is an accurate one.

>>2488955
>Are you so sure of that? Humans are inferior compared with ants in their ability to dig tunnels.
This has nothing to do with what i'm saying. In fact it only confirms that the only thing dividing humans from animals is praying and meditating.

>>2488950

They don't mourn the dead that much anyway. It's mostly a myth based on people seeing elephants react to elephant graveyards. Ya can google it, it isn't exactly hidden these days. Elephants are still smart as fuck, but they don't have any mourning rituals and shit.

>>2488960
So if we discovered a group of people that did not pray, they should not be considered human?

>>2488946
They don't have funerals. The old or sick and close to dying walk to a site away from the others so that they don't attract predators, or get the others sick.

Intelligent animals can use basic reasoning. Now, if the elephants monumentalized their graveyards upon moving away, then you could argue such a thing.

>>2488959
Prayer is active communing with God. At least when done right. It isn't a ritual, nor is it largely concerned with death.

>>2488970
I doubt there is one. Even the Abos and pygmys pray.

>>2488975
You claim knowledge of how all human beings have behaved, since their existence? On what basis?

>>2488970
Does anything indicate that a group of humans exist who don't pray? Thats like asking "if we find a square circle, is it even a square?"

>>2488980
I am also ignorant of the answer - thus I do not construct arguments on facts of which I do not know the truth.

>>2488979
>You claim knowledge of how all human beings have behaved, since their existence? On what basis?
No anthropologist has ever reported that a tribe, no matter how primitive, didn't pray.

What exactly would make one assume that such humans exist? To say a group of humans may have existed who don't pray is baseless speculation.

>>2488888
They did not tho.

>>2488986
I'm not ignorant. No tribe doesn't have myths and legends. Every tribe does.

>>2488987

>baseless speculation that it is possible that some humans did not pray

>when there are actually people in this day and age who don't pray


Yeah. For the countless ages that the homo genus has been around every single one prayed, I'm sure.

>>2488992
plz prove

>>2488996
>>2488997
By "prayer" i mean myth and legends. Concepts of Gods as well. No animals have this but every human group does.
http://www.worldlibrary.org/articles/list_of_mythologies


I don't have proof that some tribe no one has ever recorded or has proof about doesn't have a spiritual connection .

>Julian the Apostate
More like Jewlian the Apostate

>>2489011
Thus you have no basis for your statement.

>>2489051
I do, because every human group we know about has a spiritual connection.

>>2488974
In most mainstream religions, prayer us often done before meals, at funerals, in church etc., in highly specific and formulaic ways, even if there is variation within the formula (for example, asking for help and giving thanks, even if the specific things asked for thanks for vary). In Christianity, prayer is intimately associated with death, as the communication is specifically a desire to achieve oneness with God and thus gain immortality.
>>2488973
It's not just the one animal moving away, but the actions of the family members and non family members. Most animals avoid corpses unless they are carrion feeders. Why elephants do not, and the mechanics of where and when this occurs, cannot be so easily dismissed.

>>2488691
>"trying to subvert and destroy their religion because of personal hate-boner"

>>2487958
>marcus
>julian
>intelligent

>>2486518
>My favorite example from this period is Theodosius II, who was so disinterested in reading is official documents before signing them that he once accidentally authorized his wife to be sold into slavery.
Source? Can't find anything on this.

>>2489284
>https://books.google.com/books?id=DWwoAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=%22here+too+is+an+emperor%22&source=bl&ots=TyGPPSaYhc&sig=YXEhte_axaFYgZnCPlWqZCTzKaA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjV4OvS8ODRAhVFhlQKHQrfAvoQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=%22here%20too%20is%20an%20emperor%22&f=false

>"The vignettes of Theodosius preserved by Byzantine chroniclers have reinforced a view of an ineffectual ruler who, careless of matters of state, preferred his faith, his hobbies, and his horses. (...) Here too is an emperor dominated by the eunuchs of the palace household, all too easily distracted from serious matters, 'just like children with toys'; a ruler so negligently uninterested in reading his official papers before signing them that he once mistakenly authorized his wife to be sold into slavery."

In the sources for this, he references John of Antioch, Theophanes, Theodore Lector, and John of Nikiu

>>2489757
Thanks.

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>>2488063
>An alternate history of the reign of Julian "the Philosopher"

(367 - 368 AD): The Great Conspiracy
>In a coordinated surprise attack, diverse barbarian tribes invade Britain, pillaging the land and enslaving the citizens. Julian joins the Gallic armies and begins restoring order
In our own timeline, Valentinian was preoccupied by the Alamanni, who had been pacified by Julian, but now renewed their war in light of his death. Instead, he sent Count Theodosius, who would later gain fame, along with his second-in-commands, Magnus Maximus and his son, Theodosius the Younger. Without this happening, Maximus never becomes a usurper, and Theodosius the Younger never becomes emperor.

(372 - 375 AD): The Firmus Rebellion
>The Berber prince Firmus leads the Donatist sect of Christians in a religious revolt against Julian. After a long and difficult guerilla war, Firmus is betrayed by his brother. Julian brutally suppresses the Donatists, who refused to accept the authority of the Emperor and saw matrydom as the highest goal in life. Other Christians tolerate this persecution because of their hatred for the sect, but it serves as a grim reminder to any other would-be religious rebels
Even under the Christian emperors, the Donatists were militant. In our own timeline, Firmus also rebelled and the war followed the same trajectory.

(376 AD): The Gothic Migration
>Under attack from the Huns, the Goths send envoys asking to be allowed to settle within Rome's borders. Julian agrees under the normal conditions, whereby the tribes would be broken up and settled across the empire. As part of the deal, they are to provide solders for the Roman legions, and any Christians among them are to convert to paganism. Julian now has an unexpected influx of troops, but no wars to fight
In our own timeline, the migration was handled so horribly by Valens that it led to a costly war that cost him his life and changed the course of history.

(to be continued)