Why are italians so bad at fighting wars compared to their ancestors?

>>2463938
Gained nothing from fighting so had no desire to do so. Most people weren't even fans of Mussolini and were even lesser fans of the Nazis.

In the early 20th century, which is what I assume you're talking about, it mostly came down to poor leadership and organization.

they became christian dogs

>>2463981
Meme

>>2463981
This. In ancient times they were the sons of Mars. Now they're gods slaves.

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>>2463938

They grouped the terroni and the whites together

Then they were so weak they got BTFO by the Ethiopians

Italy isn't a real country so why would Italians want to fight for it?

>>2464155
Kek

Many Italian military leaders were appointed through nepotism, rather than meritocracy. Also Italians didn't have much of a unifying national identity, meaning that a Sicilian wouldn't feel much allegiance towards a Venetian, vise versa and so on. Although, I guess that has more to do with why they were always switching sides.

What's an Italy?

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>>2463938
You thread is an insult to Mario Lalli, who died heroically at the infamous Battle of Pont St-Louis and almost wounded one of the nine gods that were killing Italians en mass on the road
If only his grenade had entered the casemate instead of bouncing back on the road and killing even more Italians...

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>>2464566
The battle in question btw

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>>2464524

>join whoever seems to be winning at the time
>if you are losing, surrender immediately
>sit out the war drinking the mountains of ethiopian coffee you obtained in the 30s and your cellar of wine
>re-engineer war industry to produce sports cars
seems like a good strategy to me

Italy is bad at war because it's not a real country.

Why are we Americans dying for the South Vietnamese?

Why are we xxxx region of Italy that was a kingdom with its own language for centuries/more than a millenium dying for this made up thing called Italy?

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>>2464504
>>2464639
So did Augustus make a mistake when he created Italy then? The borders are almost the same as it is today.

>>2464572
There is only one question I can ask: Why didn't they just get a tank or mortar?

>>2464789
The officer who lead the attack (Guiseppe Cadorna, grandson of Luigi) decided it wasnt necessary

Romans were only good at fighting technologically inferior peoples and even then they still got wrecked now and then.

Italians have always been good at fighting. Starting from the romans and ending up in inventing a good half of swordmanship schools in the middle ages and early modern age.
Italy wasn't good in the laat two centuries mainly because of bad leadership.
Remember the Alpini have been the best mountain elite troops for all the major conflicts. We also had a really good navy for the world wars considering how economically underdeveloped we were. We also were the first to conduce succesful offenses on high-quote during ww1.
Also, in history military tactic was extremely influenced by Italian tacticians: The Roman Empire, the Condottieri in the middle ages. And funny enough Napoleone was ethnically Italian.

>>2465036
In fact even the modern Italian state has got a very good winrate... I think around 60 percent.

pasta shortage

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>>2463938
>it's over Luigi i have the high ground
>you underestimate my power

Italy was suffering economically due of wars and adventures in Ethiopia and Spain. They were also the weakest of the main powers in conflict.
Their industry cannot follow the rhythm of the war.

In other hand, they were the only ones in conflict which had modern war experience. Rommel also said that they were the best creating defences like bunkers, etc...and the soldiers were brave, but they had poor leadership.

I always thought that Italy believed that France would destroy Nazi Germany. So, the Nazi victory were a surprise for them, so they joined the victorious Germany for opportunistic reasons.

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>>2465274
It wasn't that bad overall. Italy had just slightly higher casualties than Austro-Hungary over the course of war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Front_%28World_War_I%29 They couldn't penetrate the alps because it's an extremely good terrain advantage. Cadona was just a retard employing the wrong strategy. When he was replaced by based Armando Diaz Austro-Hungary got BTFO.

>>2465390
>>2465390
>So, the Nazi victory were a surprise for them, so they joined the victorious Germany for opportunistic reasons.

Italy was already with Germany before they defeated France
Italians actually opened another front and tried to help the Germans to invade France >>2464572 but being Italians, they falied

>>2465446

> yfw Armando Diaz wasnt italian

>>2465468

But they joined later.

>>2465468
>join as the front is closing and victory is assured in an attempt to grab some land
>still fail
Literally the Ralph Wiggum of Europe
>I'M HELPING - Ralph "Literally Italy" Wiggum

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>>2465486
>Born in Naples to a father of distant Spanish heritage, and an Italian mother (Irene Cecconi)

Lots of terroni have Spanish surnames because because of the Habsburgers.

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If people knew about the real reason why Italy was shit in WW2 they'd stop with this meme. Mussolini said to Hitler that he needed until 1942-1943 to prepare for war. Hitler fucked him over by declaring it much earlier. Italy entered the war extremely unprepared with outdated equipment from WW1.

>but Italy was bad in WW1 too

WW1 happened just a few decades after the wars of the Italian unification, which left the everyone economically fucked and caused the North-South economic division that we see to this day.

>>2463938
non-meme reason: industrialization and lack of resources, along with outdated military tactics.

Italy doesn't suffer from bad troops, who performed well fighting the Austrians, Ottomans, and the Germans throughout their history as an Empire. Defeating the Austrians multiple times in their independence wars, and again against the Ottomans in Libya and Rhodes, culminating in the final defeat of Austria-Hungary in WWI.

Italy's main problem however was resources, where the majority of their oil and steel had to be imported from the British, once those supplies were cut between sanctions for their conquest of Ethiopia and later their entry into WWII, there was no way Italy was going to be able to sustain an army to fight a global conflict for very long, as their stockpiled oil reserves only lasted 9 months.

Next is that with Italy being in the Central Mediterranean, naturally they are a naval power moreso than they are a land power, with the Regia Marina trading equal blows with the British in the Mediterranean until the navy ran out of fuel and was forced to remain at port for the rest of the war.

as for the *MASS SURRENDER* meme, the Italians surrendered because of the resource shortages, with no fuel in the tanks and no supply shipments for food, ammunition, and weapons coming in because the Navy is out of fuel too, there was no way they could fight to begin with.

Also the newspaper in the OP is propaganda, as the Italians did have conditions to the peace which the Allies accepted, the largest of which was that the Allies had to defend Italy against the inevitable German invasion in response, which was upheld.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_of_Cassibile#Conditions

>>2463938
Too much de pasta Maremma maiala

>>2464833
No fucking way.

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>>2466178
>Next is that with Italy being in the Central Mediterranean, naturally they are a naval power moreso than they are a land power

This.Venetians and Genoans effectively controlled the Mediterranean through their history.

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>>2466348

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>>2466178
>Italy's main problem however was resources, where the majority of their oil and steel had to be imported from the British

You forgot coal as well, the most important resource to fuel the industrial revolution. Italy had a severe lack of that.

Ayy

>>2463995
this. so much evidence points to this

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>tfw Napoleon was probably the reincarnation of some Roman Emperor
>used France instead of Italy to achieve his goal of establishing a new Roman Empire because Italy was too divided at the time to try to start anything there

>>2465760
>WW1 happened just a few decades after the wars of the Italian unification
The franco prussian war happened during german unification.
Why did this not affect the germans negatively but did the italians?

>>2469221
Because they couldn't industrialize as effectively as Germany could due to lack of coal, oil and other important resources:

>>2466178
>>2466439

>>2463938
Because Italians just used Spanish soldiers to win their wars.Just look how hard they were stomped by Hannibal until Scipio formed a Spanish army.Overall Italians were always weak they just had the technology or money to conquer regions with better warriors

>>2465044
Bullying Lybia,the Ottomans and Ethiopia is not that hard.Unless you are Italian ...

>>2465446
>Armando Diaz
>Needing an Spaniard to win you a war
You proved nothing Luigi

>>2465583
>because of the Habsburgers.
Naples and Sicily were an Aragonese feud 2 centuries before the Habsburgs inherited Spain.
>Needing the rape babies of your invaders to win a war

>>2464524
When exactly did they switch side? In WW1 they only had a defensive pact with the Central Empires and in WW2 they overtrhrew the fascist government responsible for them joining the war along Germany

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>>2469392
>Naples and Sicily

Aka irrelevant shitholes. Venetians and Genoans were still unmatched in the Mediterranean and Papal States were fairly powerful and influential.

>>2469443
>Kingdom of Naples
>Irrelevant
Why do people come to this board with ZERO fucking knowledge and start spewing shit they assume.
Read a fucking 2 minute wiki article before posting about something jesus.

>>2463938
As described by my great uncle: He and 3 men surprised a squad of Italians. One man knew Italian and demanded their surrender. It took around 20 seconds for the enemy to drop their arms and form a line.

Upon being told they were prisoners of war, and the offensive would soon result in an Allied victory, the men shrugged, quipped about coffee being less expensive and offered their captors cigarettes in exchange for sweets from their rations. The men made no attempt at escape in the 4 days they were held, and in fact warned of mines and treacherous roads ahead, saving the lives of their enemy captors.

They may have been a minority, but it would seem the average Italian wanted fuck-all to do with another war in Europe, particularly when command had showed a staggering lack of military competence. I presume most soldiers knew that losing wouldn't result in the mass slaughter and rape of their civilization, so why fight to the death when you can become a reasonably well treated prisoner and then return home once the war is lost?

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>>2469534
Terroni were always irrelevant compared to North Italy. In the late WRE, the capital was moved to Milan and then Ravenna. After the collapse of the WRE and some fucking around in the peninsula by the Lombards and Franks, the Northern Italian city-states became extremely wealthy and developed and Papal States manipulated everyone through the papacy. Meanwhile, terroni were busy getting subjugated by the Byzantines, Moors, Normans, Aragonese, Bourbons and fucked in the ass by the Savoys during the unification.

>>2469443
There was literally nothing of value to be found in the Papal States except for the Pope himself.

>>2469375
Ohshitniggerwhatareyousaying.jpg

>>2469384
Ethiopia was heavily supported by the British in both attampts of Otalian occupation.
The ottomans were destroyed by Italy with no problems. Actually the only ones failing against the Ottomans were the anglo-french in the Gallipoli campaign....

>>2469389
Legitimately thinks Diaz was a Spaniard.

>>2469577
In WW2 by the time of the armistice Italians didn't care about the war. Quite litterally. At least we were smart enough not to waste lives on a lost cause.

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>>2469720
>cucked by Greeks larping as Romans

You could make an argument for it still being Roman at the time of Justinian when they at least had Latin as the official language.

>>2463938
antiwar propoganda was pumped into them giving them no united reason to fight

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>>2469708
You're underestimating the power the papacy had in the Middle Ages and the eras that followed. The crusades were commanded by them for a start

>>2469182
It's Frances fault that Italy was a divided mess.

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>>2469966
>this kills the Greek larper

>>2466178
Were these lack of resources not taken into account when the war was started?

>>2469966
It's funny that Greek wewuzians litterally got their ass kicked by an Italian guy

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>>2464833
Where may I find the source? I am very curious how could they let a parent of that son of a bitch near a position of Command, but after all Mussolini did make him "Marshal of Italy".

>>2469997
Mussolini informed Hitler that he wouldn't be ready for war until late 1942 as he needed to stockpile more resources for the war effort.

Hitler mostly ignored that and declared war on France in 1940, with the astonishing success of the French Campaign and impending surrender, Mussolini declared war expecting it to be done within the year, that the French surrender would make Britain capitulate soon afterward, and the war in Western Europe would have been over before the end of 1941.

I don't know much on Mussolini's reaction to Operation Barbarossa which continued the war, but I do know that once the US entered the war and Britain showed no signs of giving up in North Africa, Mussolini realized he was in way over his head, and dialed back Italian operations to conserve as much fuel as possible, only performing naval operations and offensives in Africa when he had to and so on.

>>2465760
Instead of attacking Ethiopia like a dumbfuck, thus getting kicked out of the society of nations maybe he should have kept out of it like Spain did, but I am glad he did not and thus he got toppled.

>>2470019
He was salty because of 1896 and wanted to teach those nigs a lesson.

>>2470033
Is Italy the only nation whose colonies were a waste of time?

>>2470007
The bottom right one is an Italian victory though
I see the Italian flag on the winning side

>>2463938
South Italy was never relevant after the fall of Rome

>inb4 muh scuola siciliana

Relevant ebcause of Arabs and Normans who cultured the subhuman peasants, and Tuscans took what they produced and made it a MILLION times better

>inb4 muh amalfi

"""Relevant""" for like a century in the dark dark ages when evey other city lost its relevance, never reached the level of relevance other later and much more powerful city states had like Genoa or Venetia,not even a quarter of it.

Tl; dr: You were never relevant terroni, everything Italy has made came from central-north Italy, asides from a few painting and "illuminist" (therefore shit) writers

>>2470051
Partisans, a victory that resulted in a tragic waste of human lives and among them many brothers, it was like a civil war for them.

>>2470036
But it was still Latin in nature. This is when the ERE stopped being Roman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius

>He was responsible for introducing Greek as the Eastern Roman Empire's official language.

Coincidentally, they lost a big part of their territories on the Italian peninsula when they did that.

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>>2470057
>after the fall of Rome

Much earlier, m8. Remember that the capitals of the late WRE were both in Northern Italy and Sicily was always poorer than the peninsula (and not even considered Italian by Augustus). It's hard to think of any relevant Roman figure that was born there also.

>>2469966
>>2470036
>be Greek
>massacre Latin people while claiming you wuz Roman at the same time

That's not how it works, Papadopoulos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins

>>2469877
>crusades were commanded by them
hwut

I thought they were just like "Hey we're sanctioning these Crusades", did any religious figure ever exercise any real command over any Crusading force?

>>2463938
They've spent all their sword-mana

>>2470189

This. The Byzantines were devious, cosplaying literally-whos who deserved to get TURKED

>>2470193
Nah, the Crusades were lead by French nobles from France and England

>>2464582
The filename

>>2470193
>>2470246
I mean, it's the Pope who called for it, whatever. You're just being autistic about semantics. Obviously, the Pope himself didn't go to war and command an army of crusaders.

>>2463938
>call Donets Basin "Donets Basin"
>call Donetsk "Stalino"

what did they mean by this

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>>2469595
>>2464481
>>2469443
>>2470057
>Padania posters

>>2470294
>Obviously, the Pope himself didn't go to war and command an army of crusaders.

Why is that "obvious"?
Saladin (the muslim equivalent of the pope) commanded himself

>>2470385
>>2470294
Not only that, but there has been instances of popes going at war. Though at the time the concept of the Crusades was already new, so the Pope taking an active part in it would have been too much.

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>>2470359
Terronia was never relevant after Vesuvio's eruption. Search it in your heart, you know it's true.

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>>2470430
Militarily and politically maybe not.
But Naples was definitely a center of culture and produced many great men.

>>2463938

Chap called Luigi Cadorna spent their entire supply of bravery on banks of Isonzo river. It probably depleted Italy in that respect for more than a century.

>>2469443
Genova was a vassal state of Castille/France depending on the year and Venice got BTFO in the Italian wars

their ancestors were disorganized shiftless barbarians

so of course their military history is just par the course

>>2469785
>Diaz
>Not Spanish.
An Italian bitch got PABLOED

>>2465583
>>2469389
>>2470963
So. They're all still dagos.

>>2470947
>Genova was a vassal state of Castille/France depending on the year

Just for a short while though, 60 years. Nothing comparable to the eternal serfdom to other people of the terroni.

>>2469182
we wuz napolean and sheit

>>2471181
>60 years
More like 3 centuries

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>>2471328

>>2471339
Do you think being a banking associate of the Spanish Crown means being a vassal, you retard? In that sense, Spain was a vassal of the Austrian Habsburgs then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Genoa

>During the 1450s and 1460s, the Republic became a pawn in the struggle between France and Aragon for power and influence in Italy.[18] Threatened by Alfonso V of Aragon, the Doge of Genoa in 1458 handed the Republic over to the French, becoming the Duchy of Genoa under the control of a French royal governor, John of Anjou. However, with support from Milan, Genoa revolted and the Republic was restored in 1461. The Milanese then changed sides, conquering Genoa in 1464 and holding it as a fief of the French crown.[19][20][21] Christopher Columbus was born in Genoa during this period, but sought a career elsewhere. Genoa was ultimately occupied by the French or the Milanese for much of the period. From 1499 to 1528, the Republic reached its nadir, being under nearly continual French occupation. The Spanish, with their intramural allies, the "old nobility" entrenched in the mountain fastnesses behind Genoa, captured the city on May 30, 1522, and subjected the city to a merciless pillage. When the great admiral Andrea Doria of the powerful Doria family allied with the Emperor Charles V to oust the French and restore Genoa's independence, a renewed prospect opened: 1528 marks the first loan from Genoese banks to Charles.

>>2464155

How do you explain Byzantium ?

better to live on your knees than die on your feet

>>2471385
>Do you think being a banking associate of the Spanish Crown
Genova was a vassal de facto.They had to send troops and boats into Spanish campaigns.In fact Genova had been kind of a vassal of Castille since the end of Ferdinand the III.The war of the two Peters happened because of Aragon attacking Genova for example.

>>2464970
that's funny because they started out as a bunch of criminals that didn't have shit in the way of technology, and their first big enemy was an advanced Greek-style city state that was in every way more advanced than they were at the time, not to mention various roman enemies like the Carthaginians had several technological advantages over the Romans when it came to ships and such, romans are actually famous for integrating their enemy's superior technology into their own system.

When?
Up until the modern age Italian mercenaries were considered top tier.

In WW1?
They were plagued by shit generals.
In WW2? They didn't really fight any worse than others, but unlike every other nation Italy was extremely behind on any kind of production.

>>2471459
A vassal doesn't retain it's independence. That's not how it works. They were just their associate. You really shouldn't be this cocky considering the history of Spain:

>ruled by Carthaginians for 369 years
>ruled by Romans for 650 years
>ruled by Moors for 700 years
>ruled by Austrians for 200 years
>BTFO by Napoleon

>>2471497
>A vassal doesn't retain it's independence
Genova wasn't independent at all.They were as independent as Parma.
>ruled by Carthaginians for 369 years
lel.You don't know who you are talking about
>ruled by Romans for 650 years
True
>ruled by Moors for 700 years
Simply false.Most land was reconquered in under 300 years
>ruled by Austrians for 200 years
The Habsburgs were 50% Castillian,25% Flemish and 25% Austrian
>BTFO by Napoleon
Napoleon lost in Spain

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>>2471524
>le Spanish face

>>2471497
>>ruled by Carthaginians for 369 years
????? only the south
>>ruled by Romans for 650 years
like all the relevants parts of europe
>>ruled by Moors for 700 years
The Moors never conquered all the peninsula
>>ruled by Austrians for 200 years
That becamed Spain in the first and strongest global empire, i think it was worth
>>BTFO by Napoleon
They were the first in defeat Napoleon

t. Argie

>>2463938
Always loved this quote from Catch-22. I never know where to cut it so check out the full one http://m.litread.in/read/97689/95817-96935?page=114

> Italy, on the other hand, is one of the least prosperous nations on earth. And the Italian fighting man is probably second to all. And that’s exactly why my country is doing so well in this war while your country is doing so poorly.
...
> The Germans are being driven out, and we are still here. In a few years you will be gone, too, and we will still be here. You see, Italy is really a very poor and weak country, and that’s what makes us so strong. Italian soldiers are not dying any more. But American and German soldiers are. I call that doing extremely well. Yes, I am quite certain that Italy will survive this war and still be in existence long after your own country has been destroyed.

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>>2471620
>????? only the south

Pic related.

>The Moors never conquered all the peninsula

What about the other 95% that they did?

>They were the first in defeat Napoleon

No faggot. Only Portugal resisted his conquests.

Also, I forgot about to mention Visigoths as well, 250 years.

>t. Argie

I'm Venetian. Ironic that I'm having to defend it's historic rival. Venice ruled the East Med and Genoa ruled the West Med.

>>2471686
>No faggot. Only Portugal resisted his conquests.
Their king abdicate but Spain continued fighting and was the first country in defeat the French Army, that is a fact.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bail%C3%A9n

>>2471715
So what? Still got conquered.

>>2470015
Sorry but it's France that declare War on Hitler.

>>2464155
This is exactly how it happened

>>2463981
>>2464065
If this is true why are there no significant greco-roman style religion in any worthwhile society today?

Take THAT, polytheists

>>2471724
So did Portugal
Conquered in 11 days by France and Spain, and remained under occupation for a year until Brits liberated them

>>2471724
Is like said Russia was conquered because Napoleon take Moscow, France had Madrid and Barcelona but never any kind of control over Spain itself or their colonies.

>>2471796
and people say the brits never do anything for portugal

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impossibru to win wars with terroniggers pulling you down.

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>>2466178
This, they produced very little during the war.

The late Romans were quite shit at war to be honest. They had to use Germanic, Hunnic and Gaulish foederati to do the job for them. The early Romans were not THAT impressive either. Aside from beating Carthage and bullying Persia and Greece they just fought technologically inferior people mainly.

>>2471540
t.puppet for 3 centuries

>>2474211
This.
> beating Carthage
By sending waves after waves on them. Ancient Romans were Soviets of their time, they won most of their wars only because of the infinite manpower cheat.

>>2474258
>they won most of their wars only because of the infinite manpower cheat

t.Vercingetorix

>>2474266
>6 garillion Gauls
>*according to Caesar

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>>2465274

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>>2471524
>>2471620
>>2471715
>>2471821

>>2474266
Yeah becausr battles like Alesia, Mons Grapius, Aquae sextiae, Zama and shit do not count, whithout considering the defeat they inflicted to the Macedonians and the seleucids....
Fucking hell...

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>>2474256
t. Habsburg puppet

Genoa was never ruled by those inbred Austrian faggots.

>>2474414
>Genoa was never ruled by those inbred Austrian faggots.
Kek.Genova had to pay a tribute,join all the wars and contribute to the fleet.They had more obligations than Aragon ffs

>>2469182
>>used France instead of Italy
Yes, he decided he should go to school in France because Italy was a mess.

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>>2474422
There are no maps that have Genoa as a dominion of them. It's only de-facto vassal was Transylvania.

>>2474471
>There are no maps

>>2464582

what the fuck is wrong with Europeans