Has real communism ever been tried?

No, but neither has real capitalism.

>>2453756
Dozens of times, all of them failure.
>>2453758
Kowloon Walled City

>>2453756
No, it has never got passed the dictatorship of the proletariat phase and that's because communism is retarded and ignores human nature

>>2453756
Communism cannot be tried, it can only be achieved. It is a far off utopia.
There just isn't enough.
Socialism is the ideology of decay and poverty that tries to achieve communism, foolishly.
Will we achieve it? Who knows.

Capitalism>Socialism
Capitalism has improved more lives and has ironically contributed more to the potential achieving of communism than socialism has.

For this question to have a meaningful answer, you need to first define the term communism.

Else we could just point to the soviet union, as plenty of people consider that to have been communist.

>>2453813
Socialism seems to work in western Europe.

You can try communism anytime you like.

Spend ~15 years living beneath your means and saving and investing money.

Buy a plot of land in Brazil or somewhere reasonably civilized. Ingratiate yourself with the locals and make sure there are no corrupt cops or any funny business going on in the neighborhood.

Rent out part of it to pay taxes and live on the remainder with your qt big assed latina gf.

The state will mostly leave you alone. You could grow weed there and they won't notice unless you try to sell it to people outside.

Sign some kind of contract saying that the land and its produce is shared between you, your gf and anyone you employ to work on your farm but they can't sell the land

Agree not to have a class system or use money on the premises.

The problem is this takes a lot of effort for little material gain.

>>2453813
Socialism is a post-capitalist state, not an alternative to capitalism.

>>2453833
>social democracy is socialism
No. Social democracy is still capitalism by every meaningful definition.

>>2453756
If your definition of communism is something good, no, doing communism has never amounted to something good

>>2453837
>Buy a plot of land
>Rent out part of it to pay taxes
No, that's being a capitalist. You are literally living based off of capital gains instead of labor. You aren't even being a wage-laborer. You're just a very petit-capitalist.

>>2453756
Not full communism, though there have been some revolutions that have been close, like revolutionary Catalonia was, at its height, 75% collectivised (I think, don't quote me on that.) The problem with a lot of communist movements is that they almost always arise during poor economic situations, either because the ruling government failed or there was a war/conflict of some kind. These situations allow for the generally poor proletariat to seize the MoPs from the capitalists since the capitalists aren't doing so hot. But after the revolution, the economic situation is still shitty and rebuilding the country's industry while chaining to a radically different economic system is a hard ball to juggle, especially if there are external threats like war or resource scarcity. This is why many attempts of communism fail; economic failures or the aftermath of wars are never a great place to establish a system, communist or capitalist.

>>2453833
As someone from Eastern Europe your understanding insults me.
Higher taxes with welfare have nothing to do with a command economy and nationalization. Paying more of your income doesn't mean having the government shove someone into your home that you can't evict.

>>2453840
Tell that to Lenin. He shoved a nation that barely abolished feudalism into socialism.

>>2453872
Lenin a shit.

>>2453756
Depends on how you interpret those words
Communism has been tried to be achieved several times, however it has never been achieved

>>2453872
>he thinks soviet union was socialist

>>2453848
but I am forced to pay taxes, I pay the devil's share and the rest is owned in common

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>>2453787
>human nature

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>>2453756
Yep, and it was ridiculously successful.

https://gowans.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/do-publicly-owned-planned-economies-work/

https://gowans.wordpress.com/2010/05/09/a-failed-systems-failed-promises/

https://gowans.wordpress.com/2013/12/23/seven-myths-about-the-ussr/

https://gowans.wordpress.com/2011/10/30/social-democracy-soviet-socialism-and-the-bottom-99-percent/

https://gowans.wordpress.com/2013/01/01/for-whom-the-war-bill-tolls/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU5P5noXZQA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYVes44hcJg

If you want to be technical about it, then no

Socialism has been tried, and it was, again, ridiculously successful.

"Real communism" (aka complete abolition of classes and by logical extension war, poverty, racism etc.), has not been tried because "real communism" is the highest stage of social and political-economic organization.

Socialism = classes still exist, but the working class runs the state and develops productive forces for socialist construction

Communism = the stage where the complete abolition of classes and states has been achieved

"Real communism" cannot be tried and will only be achieved when all the nations of the planet become socialist (i.e. public ownership of socialized means of production, development of the productive forces with technological and scientific innovation and production for needs, not profit, all managed by a dictatorship of the proletariat/workers as a class who wield state power to repress any CIA-paid fascist traitors and imperialist-backed 5th-columnists)

Why? Because while any nation is still capitalist, there will remain the inherent material incentive/motivation compelling that nation's ruling capitalist class to go to war with other nations in order to expand the capitalists' access to markets and natural resources to turn a profit for that capitalist class (aka imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism, when competitive capital becomes mainly state monopoly capital)

>>2453756
Has it been tried? Yes. Has it actually been applied? No.
It's impossible to have "real" communism. It always leads to disaster.

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>>2453898
>don't worry human nature won't interf-

>>2453756
Communism isn't something that you just "try." this is a gross misunderstanding of the theory.

Communism is not an alternative to capitalism. You don't try some communism over the weekend. According to Marx, communism is the theoretical end state of Capitalism once post-scarcity has been reached and profit based markets become unnecessary.

The "Communist" movements of the 20th century all attempted to bypass this process through various means and thus are named differently, i.e. "Leninism" "Stalinism" "Maoism."

>>2453756

It has been tried in the sense that there have been more than one attempt to achieve it, or to go throughout the phases needed for such.

Each person who, for some reason, sees communism as a goal, specially marxists, will agree that you will likely need to go through the ''socialism'' phase. That being the dictatorship of the proletariat, or the government having seized all the means of production from the capitalists and the capitalist system*.

Now, having shown that it HAS been tried, we need to go one step ahead. Has it worked? History can provide us examples of it. The reader can judge by its own.

Should someone reply that it hasn't been tried due to its inability to go farther than the socialist system; I shall answer briefly: the success of anything is a state of things that is separate from the attempt itself. For example, I can try to ride a bike. all the processes and things to be performed contribute towards an end[riding the bike], yet, by itself, do not make the act of it already successful. Keep also in mind that, socialism often being described as a phase before communism, and being held as the ultimate goal, could easily fall into what I referred to as processes necessary towards and end.

*There's much an issue here, as many tend, either due to purity, or pure dishonesty, claim that the failure of the system is caused by it not being socialist, and resort to ''state capitalism''—which is an oxymoron in itself, unless, of course, you use a very specific definition of capitalism that suits your goals.

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>>2453885
it was
see >>2454077

>>2454117
Majority of East Germans today want the DDR back because they've experienced both socialism and capitalism and learned the hard way that capitalism a shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1CyPjQQTAM

https://gowans.wordpress.com/2009/10/25/democracy-east-germany-and-the-berlin-wall/

https://gowans.wordpress.com/2011/12/20/we-lived-better-then/

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>>2453844
>t. John Birch Society or CIA or FBI or Mossad (take your pick)

Socialism in the 20th century eliminated homelessness and lifted hundreds of millions of people from the most utter poverty and illiteracy and abject exploitation.

An achievement that has never been seen before or since.

>>2454077
Nice blogs you have there.

>>2454563
>An achievement that has never been seen before or since.
Except, you know, all the non-socialist countries in which that has been happening since the 90s.
But don't let facts get in the way of your ideology!

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>>2454571
>Soviet Union
>rents were dirt cheap by law
>about 2-3 percent of the family budget
>utilities 4 to 5 percent

>>2453756
I think Sweden or some northern europe are trying that
I heard they want to have "basic income", pretty much giving every citizen a sum of money monthly to march that basic
so the citizen can focus on doing other shit than trying hard to live

Why does no one know what communism is?

The Soviets used the idea of "Achieving Communism in the next generation (or the idea that it would be achieved in around 80 years)" as a selling point for a while.

Meanwhile Lenin called the Soviet system State Capitalism (stalin just added power to the capitalist state)

While I see a State Capitalism as beneficial, without a democracy there is no socialism

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>>2454596
Which non-socialist countries eliminated homelessness?

Which non-socialist countries had full employment (guaranteeing a job for everybody)?

Which non-socialist countries had monotonically increasing econic growth rates while also not experiencing any recessionary cycles?

Which non-socialist countries had education (up to and including university) available to everybody free of charge?

Which non-socialist countries had at least basic and often top-quality health/medical care available to everybody as a constitutional right, also free or nearly free of charge?

Which non-socialist countries had 12 week paid maternity leave guaranteed as a constitutional right?

Which non-socialist countries had gender equality (with the Soviet Union having 40 something percent of its engineers being women in the 1970's)?

Which non-socialist countries had free national childcare services?

Which non-socialist countries had free health resorts available to workers to enjoy during their month or 2 month long guaranteed vacations?

Which non-socialist countries eliminated racism?

Which non-socialist countries beat the U.S.A. in basically every major milestone of space-age technological and scientific achievement?

Now, tell me:

Which non-socialist country accomplished not just one or a few but all of these things combined, while simultaneously being hounded at all sides by hostile imperialist predators and internal fifth columnists backed by the CIA doing every sort of dirty and murderous trick to undermine and destroy socialism which was and still is such a grave threat to the profit-making interests of the capitalist class who wield state power in the imperialist West (especially the U.S.A.)?

>>2454664
*16 week paid maternity leave (56 days before and 56 days after childbirth)

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>when large-scale communism has never been implemented without going against its core principles and hypocritically adopting the nation-state format as well as a vanguard party but it becomes a meme so if you bring this up you get shitposted to death by /pol/ shitters

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>>2454807
vanguard party and building socialism in a nation-state is not going against the principles of socialism lol

Democratic centralism and socialist construction is literal Marxism-Leninism 101

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>communism
>current year

Come on boys.

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>>2454829
>babby hasn't taken the red pill yet

See >>2454077
>>2454139
>>2454563
>>2454597
>>2454664
>>2454755

>>2454664
Now tell me, which socialist country did all of these?

>>2454828
The nation-state goes against the idea of communism as a world-wide movement to liberate the proletariat. I also leads to infighting within the movement which is ideologically hypocritical. Wars between communist states - like those between Vietnam, Cambodia, and China - cannot be reasonable justified from a Marxist theoretical perspective. That is because they are national conflicts, which supplanted the goal of the ideology.
A vanguard party simply creates another ruling class. Communism should be a natural progression from democracy to socialism, and then to a classless state. Leninism was a mistake.

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>>2454852
The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, tovarisch!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=03ECXprmQf8

>>2453756
Every communist government, except maybe Cambodia, worked toward the ideal of communism as prescribed by Marx and Engels.

However, none of these governments succeeded in creating the conditions necessary for a society to be considered communist.

Communism is a society with no state, no class stratification, and no market economy. This kind of society, objectively, has never existed.

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>>2454863
Realistically, on a material basis, how do you expect socialism to sweep capitalism off the planet if you don't have socialist states used as base areas to both build socialism and provide material support to revolutionary/national liberation struggles in other countries which are not yet socialist?

The building of socialism in individual nations is not the cause of conflicts between socialist states.

Btw, PRC directly supported Vietnam in its national liberation struggle against the U.S. imperialists. Were there border skirmishes later on between PRC and Vietnam? Sure. But you'd be hard-pressed trying to make a solid case to argue that those national antagonisms were really so enormous as to take higher priority over socialist construction (i.e. "the goal of the ideology") for the leadership of each respective nation (PRC, Vietnam).

How do you expect to wage a successful revolution without a disciplined cadre organized around a vanguard party?

>>2453833

I bet you think Bernie Sanders is a communist too.

>>2453756
"Real Communism" is not something that can exist in reality. So of course it's never reached full manifestation.

>>2454664
>Which non-socialist countries eliminated homelessness?
Dude, if we cram everyone in the same shitty box, it counts as them not being homeless.
>Which non-socialist countries had full employment (guaranteeing a job for everybody)?
t. the country that spawned the phrase "we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us"
>Which non-socialist countries had monotonically increasing econic growth rates while also not experiencing any recessionary cycles?
>believing Soviet statistics
>Which non-socialist countries had education (up to and including university) available to everybody free of charge?
Dude, if we give everyone a garbage product, we can claim moral superiority!
>Which non-socialist countries had at least basic and often top-quality health/medical care available to everybody as a constitutional right, also free or nearly free of charge?
See above
>Which non-socialist countries had 12 week paid maternity leave guaranteed as a constitutional right?
Literally why is this positive?
>Which non-socialist countries had gender equality (with the Soviet Union having 40 something percent of its engineers being women in the 1970's)?
Literally why is this positive?
>Which non-socialist countries had free health resorts available to workers to enjoy during their month or 2 month long guaranteed vacations?
Best euphemism for gulag I've ever seen.
>Which non-socialist countries eliminated racism?
.....is this fucking retard serious? The former soviet states nowadays are hella racist. Socialist Yugoslavia literally committed a genocide during the breakup.
>Which non-socialist countries beat the U.S.A. in basically every major milestone of space-age technological and scientific achievement?
I think you mean to say "lost the Space Race", bud

>>2454926
>Were there border skirmishes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Indochina_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese_War
Are the Indochina wars a border skirmish? The dismantling of an independent socialist state, that is advancing an ideology and in no way a grievous national antagonism? You are downplaying the serious implications of the conflicts, in that they spurn ideology for the well-being of the nation-state.

>>2454870

>starve your population so you can send a dog into space

Real great country.

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>>2454863
Building socialism in one country and proletarian internationalism are not mutually exclusive concepts, both can be done simultaneously and in fact, feed off each other to further both ends more effectively than could be done if only one or the other was chosen as the only course of action allowed, in a dogmatic fashion.

To suggest otherwise is Trotskyite "permanent revolution" and ultra-left deviationist revisionism.

Explain to me how the newly born Soviet state could have possibly survived the foreign intervention of 14+ foreign capitalist-imperialist powers in the Civil War in 1918 and then the Nazi-fascist Lebensraum genocidal blitzkrieg that almost reached Moscow a couple decades later if Stalin had decided: "Hey, you know what? Trotsky was right. Fuck farm collectivization. Fuck building heavy industry and electrification. Fuck developing the productive forces and rebuilding from the economic and material devastation of World War 1, the October Revolution and the Civil War all of which hit our territory in the span of some 5 years. Permanent worldwide revolution! Instantly go to town against all the more heavily industrially developed and economically and militarily powerful capitalist imperialist powers on all fronts at once, even though we still haven't developed our economic base past feudalism yet."

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>>2454999
>starve your population

Let me guess, Stalin killed 20 BaJillion Russians and Ukrainians?

Heh.

High-school teachers called.

They want their shitty capitalist and Zionist propaganda books with no solid evidence back.

>>2454999
Starvation has happened under every Russian regime.

If life expectancy and population growth are anything to go by, the Soviets reduced starvation enormously in the long term.

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>>2455002
It was real socialism

And it worked phenomenally

See >>2454077
>>2454139
>>2454563
>>2454597
>>2454664
>>2454755

>>2455050
https://books.google.nl/books/about/The_Harvest_of_Sorrow.html?id=Bp31GmfH-6YC&redir_esc=y
???

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>>2455050
pretty sure history teachers would agree the communists were responsible for holodomor and gulags

No it has to be achieved, not tried.

We accomplish communism once everyone dies.

>>2453756
>all communist countries are shit tier
>th-that's not Real Communism™ and that's why it doesnt work!!!1

>>2454664
>reddit formatting
>reddit ideas
No shit

>>2455173
>making up "reddit formatting" to hide from the arguments

>>2455050
How come people give the USSR and China shit for starvation in their countries, but not Qajar Persia, the Russian Empire, the British Empire, Nigeria, Bangladesh, or Dem. Republic of the Congo?

It's almost as if these arguments are being made in bad faith to forward a right-wing agenda...

>communist statistics, compiled by communist bureaucrats, prove that communism is great
>believe me, goy

>>2455255
>capitalist statistics, compiled by capitalist faux-academics and spread by capital-interest controlled journalists, prove that communism is awful
>believe me, jew

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>>2453756
>Has real communism ever been tried?


yes, real national socialism however has never been tried

>>2455173
Ah yes, the reddit fallacy. Respond to the arguments faggot.

>>2454597
>be common citizen in USSR
>have to apply to government for permission to buy a motor car. Average application processing time was more than a year
>meanwhile Brezhnev's daughter raids the Winter Palace for dresses

real socialism my ass

>>2454597
>caring about the value of an unfunctioning currency
It was not rubles that the average soviet citizen was hard up for, it was availability of commodities to use them for.

>>2453756
Communism is a paradox. On one hand it wants to get rid of the state, on the other it cannot possibly be established without a dictatorial state (which is essential for keeping people inside your system and "redistributing" their properties). Therefore, not only is communism unachievable, but it causes millions of deaths every time some retard tries his "real" version of it and fails spectacularly like all of his predecessors.

>>2455610
National socialism has nothing to with communism. The Nazis persecuted socialists.

No communism, at least real communism, has never been tried. One of the fundamentals of Marxist theory is that the function of capital be abolished. In no socialist country has that ever been implemented. The control of capital is given completely to the government but the role of capital is never abolished.

>>2456645
You can't argue that it requires a dictatorial state to keep people in line if any society relies on people staying in line. That would be like saying that social democracy practiced in the US requires a dictatorial state for people to pay taxes. Also classical marxism makes no mention of abolishing the state

>>2453756
Communism ironically needs a state to ensure that communes won't compete for resources. It's a moot ideology and its adherents should be ignored for being blind to the glaring truths of reality

>>2456731
The difference is that communism can't allow rich people or wokers to leave the country, otherwise it would have no wealth to steal or labor to exploit.
On the other hand, no matter how disfunctional a social democracy might be, you can still leave it.

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>>2454967
>Dude, if we cram everyone
not an argument
Again, which non-socialist countries eliminated homelessness, guaranteeing for everybody at least an apartment or house with necessary utilities?

>t. the country that spawned the phrase...
not an argument
Again, which non-socialist countries had full employment, guaranteeing everybody a job?

>believing Soviet statistics
Even the CIA estimates, which had ample reason to lie and slander about their hated "commie" enemy, agree that the USSR had unremitting economic growth throughout the entirety of its history, with the exception of the extraordinary years of WW2 when Nazi Germany invaded and murdered 27 million Soviet citizens and destroyed much of the USSR's infrastructure and agriculture in the western region (where the bulk of the Soviet population lived in the major cities).

>Dude, if we give everyone a garbage product, we can claim moral superiority!
That "garbage product" you speak of (free Soviet education, including higher education), allowed the Soviet Union to make astonishing leaps in scientific and technical development. Leaps and advances with which the Soviets thrashed the U.S.A. in pretty much every aspect of the Space Race.

>Literally why is this positive?
Ok, Burger, you're right. 16 week paid maternity leave is not positive. Instead women need to continue to work in the fields, factories etc. during the most critical stages of pre-pregnancy and post-pregnancy when she should be resting to prepare to birth a healthy baby and take the time to nurse and care for it so that Mr. Pig Boss can make more profits $$$ and buy more new yachts this year.

>>2456721
Never been tried =/= never been successfully implemented

It's been tried plenty of times, and it has always failed to achieve its goals. Which is why we can say that it doesn't work.

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>>2454967
>>2457091
(cont.)

>Literally why is this positive?
Women, freed from backwards and patriarchal subjugation, now became literate, educated, and learn technical skills to earn a wage and make a living. Which means half of the Soviet population became much healthier, happier, more productive citizens than they otherwise would have been under backwards patriarchy, thus contributing to the growth of Soviet economy, industry and technology/science while at the same time providing healthy and advanced upbringing to their children (future generation) with the paid maternity leave and the free national childcare for when mom was at work on her 8-hour shift (shorter shift if she had a highly technically important or dangerous job) rather than at home.

(See Pic Related)

>Best euphemism for gulag
No, not gulag. Actual health resorts. For free. And available to all Soviet citizens during their guaranteed vacations. Gulag for criminals/mafia/murderers/predators and CIA-backed fifth columnist fascist traitors and infiltrators.

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>>2454967
^ responding to
(cont.)
>>2457091
>>2457102


>The former soviet states nowadays are hella racist.
Keyword, nowadays, not during Soviet era.
>Socialist Yugoslavia literally committed a genocide during the breakup.
Yugoslavia committed genocide?
Explain to me then how forensic pathologists who went to Kosovo after the Yugoslav conflict and NATO bombing of Yugoslavia (a major war crime that deliberately targeted and killed thousands of civilians and civilian public infrastructure), left in disgust because they found zero evidence of genocide by Yugoslavia against ethnic Albanians (as NATO had claimed in the propaganda leading up to its aggression) and realized that they had been duped by NATO?

>I think you mean to say "lost the Space Race", bud
Hmm...let's take a quick look at the Soviet space program.
>first satellite
>first animal in orbit
>first human in orbit
>first woman in orbit
>first spacewalk
>first moon impact
>first image of the far side of the moon
>first unmanned lunar soft landing
>first space rover
>first space station
>first interplanetary probe
Soviets lost the space race how?

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>>2457102
>Women, freed from backwards and patriarchal subjugation, now became literate, educated, and learn technical skills to earn a wage and make a living. Which means half of the Soviet population became much healthier, happier, more productive citizens than they otherwise would have been under backwards patriarchy, thus contributing to the growth of Soviet economy, industry and technology/science while at the same time providing healthy and advanced upbringing to their children
Sounds awful

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>>2457155

Oh, and don't forget to mention these Soviet women BTFO your Nazi-Fascists on the Eastern Front of WW2.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccLnJI1HSTI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYnnBpxsI7s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJHpWPBtEwQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDO6n7GuslA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVEA0dkV_4k

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Over and over and over again.

And it failed over and over and over again.

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>>2457266
>failed over and over and over again
Fake News.

Socialism actually succeeded phenomenally well.

Socialism transformed a feudal backwater (Tsarist Russia) into the 2nd largest and most powerful industrial economy in the entire planet within the span of a few decades.

>Socialism in the 20th century eliminated homelessness and lifted hundreds of millions of people from the most utter poverty and illiteracy and abject exploitation.
>An achievement that has never been seen before or since.

See >>2454077
>>2454139
>>2454563
>>2454597
>>2454664
>>2457091
>>2457102
>>2457113
>>2457262

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTGfbItY_Ls

>>2453756
yes

>>2457288
>Socialism transformed a feudal backwater (Tsarist Russia) into the 2nd largest and most powerful industrial economy in the entire planet within the span of a few decades.

You mean the thing that was happening under Czar Nicholas II in 1914, before WW1 started? Which was one of the biggest reasons for WW1 in the first place?

Communism delayed Russia's industrialization by over two decades, and WW2 was the only reason it could.

Also, notice you say "Second" most powerful.

Who's #1, again? The Capitalist Democracy that DIDN'T die because the people revolted so hard the entire system collapsed?

>>2457288
If Socialism works, why can't socialist enterprises compete with capitalist ones in the open market?

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>>2455072
>>2455074
https://sputniknews.com/politics/201508091025560345/

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>>2457288

See >>2457318

>>2457113
by failing to plant their flag and take a selfie

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>>2457318
>You mean the thing
>Which was one of the biggest reasons for WW1
wrong.
WW1 was caused by imperialist rivalry between German, Anglo, Ottoman, Austro-Hungarian, Tsarist Russia etc. for division of colonies and expansion of state monopoly capitalism.

>>2457318
>Who's #1, again?
The Soviets did not reach the same economic height of the U.S.A., ok. The U.S.A. had about a couple century head-start in industrial development thought, which was massively benefitted by its genocide of indigenous people and enslavement of millions of Africans (dirt-cheap, virtually free labor for centuries which jumpstarted the cotton and other materials needed to trade and develop industry through protective tariffs).

>people revolted so hard the entire system collapsed
Soviet people did not revolt.
In fact, during a referendum shortly before the fall of USSR, big majority of Soviet citizens wanted the USSR to continue as a state and further development.
The collapse of USSR was due to the crushing burden of having to divert increasingly higher percentage of its GDP to military outlays (since the USA was constantly aggressing against and threatening the USSR with nuclear annihilation, in fact the Arms Race by the US was started for this specific purpose, to sabotage the Soviet Union's economy).
As well as the fact that a deviant-revisionist traitor clique within the organs of state power (Gorbachev and then Yeltsin) organized a coup with the help of the U.S.A. to overthrow and break apart the Soviet state and revert it to capitalism in order to sell off publicly owned, state-planned enterprises to their fat-cat oligarch cronies. This clique even rolled in tanks to bomb the Parliament in Moscow.

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>>2457318
^ response to
>>2457451
(cont.)

Notice that the collapse in Soviet economy happened AFTER Gorbachev implemented perestroika (i.e. capitalism)

Also notice that at the highest levels of the U.S.A. political-economy military complex, the capitalist class feared as early as the late 1970's and into the 1980's that the USSR would soon overtake the US economy and make a mockery of the US claim to superiority of private enterprise, free market system unless they did something to reverse the Soviet growth (i.e. intensifying the Arms Race to a monstrous level game of nuclear chicken)

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>>2457318
^ respond to
>>2457451
>>2457460
And even then, the Arms Race did not reverse Soviet economic growth, only slowed the rate of that growth.

The U.S.A. still needed the internal coup to be carried out by the revisionist-traitor capitalist Gorbachev-Yeltsin clique.

>>2457460
If socialism is superior to capitalism, why didn't communes within western countries provide a higher standard of living than private corporations?

>friends and I want to run a marathon
>start training
>more people join the training group
>start a club
>call it the marathon club because that's the goal we want to achieve
>print shirts
>while training one guy asks us if we are running a marathon
>explain that this is not a marathon, we are only training for one
>his face lights up with glee, starts running in circles shouting "Ha! Not a real marathon!" over and over.

>>2457489
Do you really think Stalin's end goal was to abolish the state that gave him power? He was a dictator using the label

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>>2457471
>communes in capitalist countries = socialism
lol no

Socialism = the working class runs the state (i.e. you can't have a socialist system if the capitalist class still runs the state) and there is publicly owned, planned economy with production for need, not profit

If the state is not run by the working class, then it's not socialism.

To think that socialism can be developed in isolated little communities while the capitalist class still runs the state is NOT scientific socialism. That is "utopian socialism" in that it takes an idealist position that is not fundamentally grounded in a material reality-based, dialectically sound approach to socialist construction.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/

Also, if you're referring to the "hippie communes" of the U.S.A. in the 1960's and 1970's, LEHMAO.

Reminder that the "hippie movement" in the U.S.A. was literally a CIA/FBI plot to divert the activity of young people from serious, committed, disciplined, sober-headed revolutionary activity (Black Panthers, Brown Berets, American Indian Movement, Young Lords, White Panthers, Marxist-Leninist cadre building etc.) into paths of least concern and lowest threat to the ruling class (i.e. music festivals with abundant hard recreational drugs, booze and orgy sex).

Reminder that the major music groups and cultural icons of Laurel Canyon literally all had direct connections to the CIA or Office of Naval Intelligence.
http://centerforaninformedamerica.com/laurelcanyon/

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>>2457489
I'm not sure if I got your analogy 100%

but

Are you referring to Trotskyite or "authentic Marxist" idealist types who shit on Actually Existing Socialism and it's many achievements because "It wasn't real socialism! Stalinist totalitarianism! Soviet Union was state capitalism!"

?

http://www.greanvillepost.com/2015/05/23/left-anticommunism-the-unkindest-cut/

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>>2457422
>still believes the U.S.A. actually sent a successful manned mission to the moon

Anon, I...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbZatP7TycM

http://centerforaninformedamerica.com/moondoggie/

http://www.checktheevidence.com/pdf/Dave%20McGowan%20-%20Wagging%20The%20Moon%20Doggie.pdf

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>>2455604
There has never been a mass migration from a capitalist country to a communist country.

Let that sink in. Not even Haitians want to live in Cuba, they prefer to cross the entire continent and settle in Brazil or Chile. This is reality, this is beyond statistics, where does people actually want to live. As it turns out, no one wants to live in a communist country.

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>>2457583
And how do those Haitians end up in Brazil or Chile? Oh, that's right, in the slums, working the most long hours, no-benefits, dangerous, shit, constantly subject to abuse by the capitalist police, local mafias and right-wing paramilitaries while also enjoying a negligible to non-existent possibility of social mobility or educational opportunity for their children.

Is the Brazilian and Chilean economy on aggregate larger than Cuba's?

Of course, but are Brazil and Chile subject to a constant 60-year long genocidal blockade by the USA and it's navy cutting them off from most trade with other countries in the world and from international credit for capital accumulation?

Also, has Brazil or Chile eliminated homelessness?

No, but Cuba has.

We can play this game all day, Burger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXyBSX_mnnc

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>>2453756
yeah, and by /ourguy/

>>2457554
Yo momma went to the moon, oh wait, she is the moon (cuz shes fat)

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>>2457632
>Pol Pot was socialist and /ourguy/!
He was literally a darling of the CIA.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/US_PolPot.html

>>2457625
Hahahahahah, you can talk all you want about communist stats and propaganda, the reality is the following: people who eat dirt still don't want to live in Cuba.

You can't lie about that stuff. You can't post a video of people saying whatever he wants. PEOPLE WHO EAT DIRT. THEY DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN CUBA.

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yes, sort of. the hutterites supplement their economy with external trade, but wealth no matter what is evenly distributed between their members in any discernable way.

so basically non-retarded communism.

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>>2457647
>UN and independent international agency investigations and stats are just Le Ebil Gommie Propaganda

>You can't lie about that stuff.
>PEOPLE WHO EAT DIRT. THEY DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN CUBA.
Explain to me how there are an estimated 300,000 Haitians living in Cuba then?

http://www.afrocubaweb.com/haiticuba.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU6ldN24bJ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7nAOPo0tc8

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>>2457665
>non-retarded communism
Are you referring to actually existing socialist states as "retarded communism"?

Socialism worked phenomenally well.

Socialism in the 20th century eliminated homelessness and lifted hundreds of millions of people from the most utter poverty and illiteracy and abject exploitation.

An achievement that has never been seen before or since.

Take the Red Pill, anon.

It's good vitamins for you, tovarisch.

See >>2454077
>>2454139
>>2454563
>>2454597
>>2454664
>>2454755
>>2454870
>>2455050
>>2457091
>>2457102
>>2457113
>>2457262
>>2457288
>>2457357
>>2457451
>>2457460
>>2457470
>>2457513
>>2457625
>>2457709

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jFOsf91aIM

>>2457709
They are descendents of people who went to Cuba during capitalist times.

Nowadays Haitians don't emigrate to Cuba.

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>>2457732
wrong

many of them also became refugees and fled to Cuba to escape from the U.S.'s right-wing coups to install puppet dictators in Haiti (Duvalier ring a bell?) who murdered tens of thousands and doubtless "disappeared" and tortured many thousands more


https://vimeo.com/40042085
^fast forward this to about 9:40 for a breakdown of Haiti

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o11tqrCK73c

>>2457727
wow could you not reply to me with this obnoxious post, please?

>>2457787
We will never agree about anything. You consider everything CIA propaganda, I consider everything KGB propaganda.

The reality is: I live in a country where many Haitians choose to live. It's very far from Haiti, but they want to come here. They could go to Cuba, but they don't.

Maybe they did went to Cuba during the 1970s, that was the time when Cuba was sustained by the Soviet Union, so it was better country. But nowadays, that Cuba is shit and not even Haitians want to live there.

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>>2457788
wow could you try refuting any of the points made rather than dismissing it as "this obnoxious post", please?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=korGK0yGIDo

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>>2457798

Why do Haitians flee Haiti to U.S.A.?
Because of poverty.
I.e. people having to resort to eating dirt.
Well, Haiti is poor precisely because of U.S.A. and Western neo-colonialism subjugating Haiti to the profit-making interests of the elite U.S. capitalist investor class (the Clinton's dirty dealings in Haiti recently are a good example of this).
See https://vimeo.com/40042085 for more info (fast forward to 9:40 for breakdown of Haiti)

So most want to come to U.S.A., yes.
A minority want to come to Cuba.

Now, why?

The U.S. economy undoubtedly dwarfs Cuba's economy.
The U.S.A. is also about 90 times larger than Cuba in total land area (thus, access to resources and petroleum and other energy reserves etc.).
The U.S.A. also has several centuries head-start on Cuba in industrial development, helped along by massive slave-labor of millions of Africans and their descendants and genocide of many millions more indigenous peoples.

>But nowadays, that Cuba is shit
If by that, you mean that Cuba's economic growth is heavily stunted, then yes, you are correct.
That's not because of Cuban socialism however.

That is because the U.S.A. has been enforcing a full-scale genocidal economic and naval blockade to block tiny Cuba off from being able to access most world markets for trade and international credit agencies for capital used to develop industry and make agriculture more efficient.
Despite this, Cuba's achievements are still concrete (real, reality based) and world-renowned.
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/US-Blockade-on-Cuba-Is-Genocidal-20160923-0006.html

Based Assad himself described Fidel as an inspiration to all around the world seeking real independence and national liberation upon Fidel's death.
http://sana.sy/en/?p=94412

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEArJdmBE7E

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>>2457843
Still no one wants to live in Cuba. There is no mass migration of Latin Americans to Cuba.

Poor countries will always exist. But no one flees from poor countries to socialist countries. No one flees from Honduras to Cuba. No one fled Portugal to East Germany. No one fled the Philippines for Vietnam.

That's my point. Statistics lie. Videos lie. Communists are very good at propaganda. But the real facts are: no one wants to live in communist countries. They have to build walls to prevent people from leaving.

>>2457843
And by the way, I'm not American, I'm Brazilian. Haitians prefer to come here than to go to Cuba.

Venezuelans too, by the way.

>>2457957
>poor countries will always exist
They exist because whenever they try to make a move at socialist construction, to develop their economy and industry to a higher level unprecedented in their histories and take their economic destinies in their own hands to benefit their own people, they instantly become the target of capitalist-imperialist powers ravenous to destroy that infant baby of socialism in its grave and keep that country submitted to the international dictatorship of the U.S.

>>2457957
The Berlin Wall was necessary to prevent DDR from being subverted by a larger neighbor that was actively expansionist and trying to destroy East German socialism, (which it eventually succeeded in doing through the help of the US coup in Soviet Union and color revolutions throughout East Europe).

West Germany literally had former Nazis and fascist connected people at the top of their administration who had been protected from prosecution by the U.S.A. who saw them as useful to counter socialist activity in Europe and launch false-flag terrorist attacks against civilians throughout Europe, to then be blamed on left-wing movements to justify increase in domestic repression and building of more US missile bases targeting the Soviets in Europe and Turkey.

Operation Gladio ring a bell?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wartD6l8Ob8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV6ThumhLyc

>>2457966
But there has been a lot of countries which had decades to build a socialist economy and remained poor.

Ethiopia, Venezuela, Mozambique, Angola, Vietnam, Egypt, etc

And it's not like capitalist countries didn't face subversion by revolutionary communist movements and the KGB. When Brazil tried to imitate the Asian model of fast industrialization, a labour rights movements funded by Cuban intelligence appeared to stop it, so the country remained poor.

No country has ever been able to develop outside of foreign influences trying to fuck it up. Not even the U.S.

>>2457981
The whole stuff about Operation Gladio is overblown by commie propagandists.

The CIA wanted certain countries to prepare for hte possibility of a communist invasion, so they directed a lot of weapons there.

The invasion they feared never happened, the weapons remained unused. That's the end of history for most countries, including Germany. But Italy was a different story, Italy was (and still is) corrupt as fuck, so local elites took these guns and distributed to their friends, a bunch of right-wing fanatics and neo-fascists, who did a lot of terrible things with them.

That's the history. There was no major CIA conspiracy. No grand strategy to make terror across the entire continent of Europe. Just a bunch of pasta niggers fucking things up.

>>2457984
The foreign capitalist-imperialist aggressions which are responsible for the vast majority of the destruction of socialism in the countries you mentioned were colossal, enormous.

The capitalist countries' subversion was overwhelmingly based on indigenous grievances (land reform, poverty, illiteracy etc.). The indigenous groups made contact with existing socialist countries because they needed an example for how to successfully accomplish revolution and socialist construction in their own countries. To claim that the Brazil's poverty was due to a labor rights movement which never took power is laughable.

Brazil is poor because of neoliberal austerity capitalism.

That's why you have skyscrapers overlooking countless miles of working and unemployed people scraping out a miserable existence in the slums and favelas. That's capitalism, not socialism.

>>2453756
No, because of it fails then it's not a real communism, and because communism is bound to fail it will never have been tried

>>2457984
To believe that foreign aggression has subverted the US's development to any appreciable degree is laughable.

The U.S.A. has been, since its foundation, the Aggressor in almost ever single one of its wars and land expansions.

>>2457997
Man, as an anti-communist, I would love if "capitalist-imperialist" aggressions were as omnipotent as you imagine.

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>>2457993
>there was no CIA conspiracy
>ignore the evidence
>it's conspiracy theory, Ivan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-YgjmWMJB0

>even if something happened, it was just in Italy
what are the Dutch supermarket massacres?

>>2458007
colossal, enormous =/= omnipotent

but to deny that capitalist-imperialist aggressions were colossal and enormous is to blatantly ignore material reality

when you reach that stage of denial, you are no longer even operating in the real world

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m17IcQ8zWtk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KIvAXPEcaE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmz2UATp7DA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG3pGS6ZzlA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFsDmQ06Teo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2vjYcf43Zo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQLldpH4dlA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MtA7j4vMrw

>>2457357
>60 million
that is a strawman argument, if anyone said it was 60 million they are a tiny minority


the article doesn't refute what was unique about this famine where the soviets emptied ukrainian granaries to fulfil static quotas despite the drought and slightly lower production, people who worked in collective farms could not eat the very grain they harvested, many of whom were kulaks who would have owned that grain just a few years ago

>>2457799
I didn't even read your post. I was just hoping for someone who isn't schizophrenic to respond to me.

>>2458002
Socialism was not a failure.

Socialism was remarkably successful.

See >>2454077
>>2454139
>>2454563
>>2454597
>>2454664
>>2454755
>>2455050
>>2457091
>>2457102
>>2457113
>>2457262
>>2457288
>>2457357
>>2457451
>>2457460
>>2457470
>>2457513

>>2458057
kulaks hoarded grain

the Soviets did send food aid to Ukraine

Ukraine was not the only region hit by famine

That famine, in any case, was the last famine in the East Europe region.

It was the dying gasps of the old feudalist mode of production plus the effects of how both World War 1 and the Civil War when 14+ foreign capitalist-imperialist powers (USA, British, Germany, France, Japan etc.) invaded the nascent Soviet state at once and massively fucked its countryside and capacity for industrial development

>>2458057
Holodomor was literally a hoax created by Ukrainian fascist supremacists paid by the CIA

>>2458104
just like how the "White Helmets" are not actually a real relief agency, despite the US capitalist mass-media giving it an Oscar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8_cPE30z-I

>>2458007
also this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3ioJGMCr-Y

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>>2453756
Thread theme

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPSRC__2Rx8

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>>2454077

>these things are okay as long as tens of millions of people were starved, killed or exterminated in its quest for utopia

>OP believes this is a sound ideology

I absolutely detest the meme, but I will use it now

kys

>>2453756
Communism is a "end game" of socialism. U cant try the end game but only achieve and no society CAN achieve communism today, because of reasons.
Socialism has been tried and failed numerous times

Yes.

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>>2458584
>Socialism has been tried and failed
Wrong.
Socialism was and is an outstanding success.

See >>2457727

The capitalist media says otherwise.
But the capitalist media is the ENEMY of the people.
The establishment HATES us, folks.
Because us socialists, we do things BIGLY.

That I can tell you!

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>>2458603
Wrong

See >>2454077 for explanation of difference between communism and socialism

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>>2458553
>Le Gommies killed 300 GajZillion people!

Wrong.
See >>2455050
>>2457357
>>2458091
>>2458104
>>2458111

So many idiots in this thread. Shame, shame.

>>2458091
>>2458104
pure memery

>Soviets did send food aid to Ukraine
would've have been easier not to cut rations

>Ukraine was not the only region hit by famine
and neighboring "evil capitalist imperialist" Romania didn't see a single death from famine

>capitalist-imperialist powers
lending support to your allies is less imperialistic than invading Poland

>CIA
the CIA was founded after ww2

yes but real communism is impossible because it goes against natural laws

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>>2458749
>CIA was created after WW2
Yes and the Ukraine-Nazis received money from the CIA for decades after WW2 up to present day to propagate the Holodomor hoax.

>Getting a coalition of 14 imperialist countries together to crush a socialist state that just wants to be able to develop and make life better for its people.
Gee, sounds EXACTLY like what's going on today with USA/Zionist/Saudis and their ISIS/Al-Nusra/FSA proxies trying to destroy Syria, the last Arab socialist nation on the planet, simply because Based Assad refuses to allow his nation to become a slave to the West.
Never change, capitalism.

Romania didn't suffer a famine because it did not come under assault by 14 imperial powers and have its entire economy and industry/agricultural base fucked over by this plus environmental calamities plus some errors of planning (not deliberate anti-Ukraine genocide as the propagandists claim because otherwise why did people in other SSR's suffer famine if thay famine was really man-made and Stalin paid the rain not to fall and such?)
Really fires my neurons...

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>>2458773
Nope

See >>2457727

>>2453756
Idiot

>east berlin is so shitty they needed to build a wall to keep people in
>ussr was great starvation don't real it's all propaganda!

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>>2453762
>Failure
YEAH SURE DUDE IT'S NOT LIKE YOU'RE LIVING UNDER IT

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>>2458865
Red Pill yourself, Norman.

>>2457727

>>2454139
>Majority of East Germans today want the DDR back because they've experienced both socialism and capitalism and learned the hard way that capitalism a shit.

Majority of East Germans today have also extreme far-right views and want to chase out any migrant that isn't a Vietnamese.

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>>2458886
The quality of life and economic security for East Germans was undeniably superior under DDR system than today.

The post you just quoted explains, if you bothered to read the articles which are heavily sourced and corroborated with solid evidence.

Primitive forms of communism have been successfully tried among early Christian communities and still exist among small protestant sects such as >>2457665. Their religious nature is important because faith allows them to overcome the classic "human nature" argument against communism.

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>>2458886
Behavior and what's called human nature are largely determined by the environment, undoubtedly racism is going to make a comeback in East Germany post-DDR because that's part of the decay into capitalism (capitalist states are racist as shite as evidenced by their repression of internal minorities and continually blowing away, with jets and robot drones and cruise missiles and sanctions etc, millions of people in small, weak, foreign nations [think Syria, Iraq, Libya, DPRK, etc] that are minding their business and don't pose any threat to the security of the populations of the capitalist powers but rather pose a threat to the profit-making interests of the capitalist class which seeks to continually expand its access to markets, resources and labor to keep the profits rates increasing and flowing to their pockets)

>>2458886
>wanting to retain a degree of cultural and/or ethnic homogeneity is a far-right position
You can be left-wing without needing to go full workers of the world unite. In fact, that's the only way any meaningfully left-wing society is going to thrive in the long term.

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>>2458975
Fuck off Nazbol/Strasserite/Duginist.

National liberation in the TriContinental/oppressed nations =/= national chauvinism/fascism in the imperialist/oppressor nations.

>see gommie posts have multiple responses
>expect some nice discussion about the subject
>it's just some sperg from /leftypol/ replying to himself for the whole thread
well

>>2458914
1. Reformed Christian communities like the Amish are voluntary and do not involve revolution or seizure of the means of production, which are central to communism.
2. Capitalism exists in these communities since people are allowed to own businesses privately and buy labour.
3. Historically these communities grew from the same branch that capitalism did, the two main figures being Luther and Calvin. Any honest observation of history and religion would lead to the understanding that these communities share the same heritage as America with its economic attitude being entirely capitalistic.

This all depends on the definition of communism, but voluntary collectivisation that is completely void of violence or government (other than simple disciplinary measures like excommunication) shouldn't be labelled communism. The people you are talking on behalf of definitely wouldn't identify with historical communism. What reformed Christianity really expresses is not primitive communism but sophisticated capitalism.

>>2459021
there's plenty of discussion, see posts before and after >>2454596 for example

Among others

>>2458920
>undoubtedly racism is going to make a comeback in East Germany post-DDR because that's part of the decay into capitalism

It doesn't explain why they are so much more xenophobic towards non-model minorities (Vietnamese) than the Western part of Germany that has been capitalist for much longer.

>>2459035
>Reformed Christian communities like the Amish are voluntary and do not involve revolution or seizure of the means of production, which are central to communism.

I disagree. Revolution/seizure of the means of production is only central to the socialist stage, not communism.

Also historically those Christian movement predate capitalism by a couple centuries. I would definitely not consider them "sophisticated capitalism". If anything they have ties to the pre-capitalist market economy of the Renaissance. They are one step away from mutualism.

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>>2454077
>Socialism = classes still exist, but the working class runs the state and develops productive forces for socialist construction

t. Red Bureaucracy

>>2454077
You have a very severe form of autism, and I can just guess from your behavior you're a westerner who has never experienced anything close to socialism. Also, stop linking your own blog on 4chan, you faggot extraordinaire.

>>2458991
There is a huge leap between what the guy posted and "national chauvinism/fascism". Don't give in to excess.

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>>2458793
>propagate the Holodomor hoax
they were aware of the famine before it happened, it is widely documented

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1970&dat=19300730&id=NDsyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=PuQFAAAAIBAJ&pg=896,2005611

>EXACTLY like what's going on today
heh, looks like you broke the 25 year rule, a point in my favor

>come under assault by 14 imperial powers
the war ended a decade earlier and can't be blamed

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>>2459065
>East Germans suddenly thrown into massive unemployment, drop in quality of life etc.
>Refugees from capitalist-imperialist wars of aggression in the Middle East and North Africa arrive
>Deep cover fascists (direct legacy from Operation Paperclip style CIA-protected former Nazis in Germany) use this to their advantage by making a massive propaganda campaign to convince East Germans that their continued economic troubles are due to "those refugees" rather than the real culprit, capitalism

Wew, boy. Over and over and over again.
It's so obvious when you look at it.
And the "ISIS = scary Muslims who want to destroy the West" narrative despite the fact that ISIS's primary victims are Muslims, especially Shia, in the Middle East and ISIS objectively works as a tool of the West to further capitalist-imperialist and Zionist goals in the Arab world.
These right wing fascist movements are also heavily pro-Israel (Trump, Farage, Le Pen, Afd, Ukraine Neo-Nazis etc.).

Really fires up those neurons.

>>2454077
>Why? Because while any nation is still capitalist, there will remain the inherent material incentive/motivation compelling that nation's ruling capitalist class to go to war with other nations in order to expand the capitalists' access to markets and natural resources to turn a profit for that capitalist class (aka imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism, when competitive capital becomes mainly state monopoly capital)

No. If this were true the other nations would only need to be a majority to posses the military might to deter capitalist nations from attacking. No need to wait for the entire world to turn socialist. The real reason is that capitalist nations can out-compete socialist ones through exploitation. The main reason the USSR failed was that it proportionally had to spend so much more of its resources on the military compared to the US.

>>2459116
>Deep cover fascists (direct legacy from Operation Paperclip style CIA-protected former Nazis in Germany) use this to their advantage by making a massive propaganda campaign to convince East Germans that their continued economic troubles are due to "those refugees" rather than the real culprit, capitalism

Complete bullshit.

>>2459103
The Holodomor hoax refers to how Ukraine fascists claim it was a premeditated genocide against Ukraine.

It's not denying that famine happened, but that the famine was not deliberate or man-made as the CIA and Ukraine Banderistas like to distort and falsify.

>>2459136
>historical reality = bullshit
K

>>2454870
Alright, let's look at your point program then, and compare it to the USSR.

>Which non-socialist countries eliminated homelessness?
Not the Soviet union.

>Which non-socialist countries had full employment (guaranteeing a job for everybody)?
Unnecessary labour is unfulfilling and causes mental issues. Also, sending people to gulags is not 'guaranteeing a job for everybody'.

>Which non-socialist countries had monotonically increasing econic growth rates while also not experiencing any recessionary cycles?
Still not the Soviet Union. Unless you mean meaningless numbers as people were starving and waiting for days for a piece of bread was still good because 'these numbers say the economy is growing'.

>Which non-socialist countries had education (up to and including university) available to everybody free of charge?
If everybody has a degree, nobody has a degree. Also,
>implying Soviet peasants actually had the chance to go to Uni

>Which non-socialist countries had at least basic and often top-quality health/medical care available to everybody as a constitutional right, also free or nearly free of charge?
Was it free, yes. Was it good, no. It still does not compare to healthcare systems in Western Europe.

>Which non-socialist countries had 12 week paid maternity leave guaranteed as a constitutional right?
Hahahaha, ""paid"". You can't use your maternity leave if you and your baby starve.

>Which non-socialist countries had gender equality (with the Soviet Union having 40 something percent of its engineers being women in the 1970's)?
Oh this is just utter bullshit and you know it. Gender equality was and is a complete myth in the (former) Soviet Union.

>Which non-socialist countries had free national childcare services?
Yeah, that system was definitely not a shitty one. No sire.

cont.

>>2459160
cont.

>Which non-socialist countries had free health resorts available to workers to enjoy during their month or 2 month long guaranteed vacations?
How do keep making these stretches? Labourers in the Soviet Union had nothing like these privileges. On paper, yes, but in reality the most they could wish for was a dacha a few miles further north/south.

>Which non-socialist countries eliminated racism?
I'm not even going to comment on this one, how retarded can you be.

>Which non-socialist countries beat the U.S.A. in basically every major milestone of space-age technological and scientific achievement?
>muh Space race
Yeah, real useful if your people are starving all around, investing in a space program.

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>all this /leftypol/ twinks still are trying to shill and justify socialism and communism as a good thing
>even at the level of denying war crimes
>tfw your 98y/o grandfather who served in red army and fought at Kurs and was offered to join КПCC told you communism in concept is a retarded system

You /leftypol/acks are even more delusional then /pol/acks.

>>2459187
Nice anecdote m8.

>>2459187
Your grandfather has no more experience of communism than anyone here. Soviet Union socialism wasn't communism, anon.

>be my mother
>family is scared because they're Christian
>father is an alcoholic
>be in school
>eat a slice of bread with butter and slice of cheese for breakfast
>have lungs on sour cream for lunch again
>go to supermarket
>incredible low variety of things you can buy
>get a bad mark from chemistry
>work hard to make it a 2 (murican B)
>fuck you, you have to now study Chemistry in college
>find chemistry to not be interesting, and work later a job you don't enjoy, eventually leaving it
>finally velvet revolution happens
>get first car ever at age of 54
Sure, socialism might have been good in Russia, but the other satellite states were shit. Capitalism is no solution, however it gives us a chance to shitpost on anonymous about it's counterpart.

>>2453872
And how did that turn out?

:^)

>>2459160
>>2459164
>denial
>denial
>denial
>non arguments
>no evidence to back anything up
>recycled CIA shibboleths
cool story, bro

>>2459306
Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Yugoslavia were the better off ones.

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>>2459099
>never experienced anything close to socialism
Well, let's look at the people who have experienced socialism then.
Oh, wow, big majorities of them prefer the Soviet model of state planning and public ownership to free market, private enterprise!

https://gowans.wordpress.com/2011/12/20/we-lived-better-then/

https://gowans.wordpress.com/2013/12/23/seven-myths-about-the-ussr/

http://www.gallup.com/poll/166538/former-soviet-countries-harm-breakup.aspx
https://gowans.wordpress.com/

Also https://gowans.wordpress.com/ is #NotMyBlog

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>>2458048
How can the Vietnam War be considered a "capitalist-imperialist" aggression when it was North Vietnam that invaded the south?

>>2459136
>Complete bullshit
Nope, it's legit.
https://viewpointmag.com/2014/09/11/the-deep-state-germany-immigration-and-the-national-socialist-underground/

>>2459417
Then it must have been really terrible for Baltic states.
Who was in the most terrible condition? Ukraine?

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>>2459443
That's just old people nostalgia googles. Many people in my country also "miss" the right-wing military dictatorship of the 1970s, and say they lived better under it.

As I've said many times, the best way to see if people actually want to live under communism is: has there ever been a mass migration to a communist country? And the answer is no.

Mass migration out of communist countries, on the other hand, there are plenty.

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>>2459456
*How can the Vietnam War when it was the U.S.A. that installed a puppet dictatorship in the south, got assmad when they realized their capitalist puppets would lose an election to the communists, invented a fake false flag attack (Gulf of Tonkin) and used this as a pretext to invade Vietnam (starting by invading the south) and bomb its entire countryside and civilian population to smithereens (including with napalm and chemical weapons). More millions of tons of bombs were dropped by the U.S. on Vietnam than the entire Axis and Allies dropped on each other throughout the entire 2nd World War. Also the U.S. deliberately wiped out entire villages and hunted and mass-raped Vietnamese civilians as a deliberate terrorist policy, including women and children, for sport and sick jollies.

fixed that for you

>>2459509
The U.S. did nothing wrong.

>>2459473
>Vietnamese refugees mass migrating
>This is Vietnamese socialism's fault
>Not the more logical conclusion: the result of the U.S.A. bombing the ever-loving fuck out of the entire Vietnamese countryside, resulting in starvation-tier conditions and not being able to walk out in the fields without possibly getting fucked by an unexploded mine left over from the war (there are still many of these in Vietnam and Cambodia to this present day, in fact)

>>2458877

Why not just move to north korea? I'm sure they'd love to have you there.

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>>2459525
US did everything wrong

US is the international predator and aggressor

Vietnam won, however, thank Jeebus

Vietnam repulsed those Ameri-fat invaders, terrorists and occupiers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoP2ewxsJV0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMzpGnI0RSk

>>2459537
And now Vietnam is capitalist and pro-U.S.

>>2459443
>Well let's look at these people who experienced communism and suffer from nostalgia like every other old person
>oh wow they thought the past was great!! This means my argument is right and totally waterproof the USSR was a utopia lalala I can't hear you

You deserve to be sent to the gulag.
t. Grandpa was part of the commie elite

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>>2459533
The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a fucking great place, m8.

> Free education (through university)

> Free healthcare

>almost no crime, therefore very few police (mostly traffic police)

>clean, well-organized tidy streets

>dirt-cheap and extensive public transportation system that connects practically the entire country

>clean, beautiful environment because Coca-Cola, Bechtel, Exxon-Mobil etc. are banned from entering to destroy DPRK natural resources which belong to the nation

> Free, guaranteed apartment housing for all families (120 square meteres) thereby no homelessness

> free hair salons

> free newspapers

> no taxes

> free health resorts

> planned economy run by the Worker's Party in its working class character that's growing unremittingly without recessions or boom-bust cycles

>cannabis is legal and grows like flowers, in peoples' backyards and workers regularly smoke that dank kush after their shifts on the regular

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9HxGhIo-6k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIeA72Jen-s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkgLUw7CvK8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XUsUDAE1gg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1-2dju0cNM

https://gowans.wordpress.com/2007/03/03/understanding-north-korea/

https://gowans.wordpress.com/2014/12/30/how-and-why-the-western-news-media-get-north-koreas-economy-wrong/

https://gowans.wordpress.com/2010/07/21/the-real-story-on-north-korea-and-its-healthcare/

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>>2459550
>Vietnam is capitalist
Fake News.

https://return2source.wordpress.com/2013/01/08/actually-existing-socialism-in-vietnam/

>>2459586
hahahahahahaha

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>This ENTIRE thread

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>>2459125
>capitalist nations can out-compete socialist ones
Then explain how on a individual nation vs nation basis, the Soviets out-competed every single capitalist nation on the planet in economy and industrial/technical/scientific development, with the exception of the U.S.A., which had several centuries worth of head-start in industrialization.

And even in that case, top elites in the U.S. capitalist class that runs U.S. state policy (including economic and military policy) expressed to each other deep concern as early as the late 1970's and into the 1980's that the Soviets would soon overtake the U.S.A. in both total economy and standard of living, making a mockery of U.S. capitalist propaganda and thereby deeply undermining the legitimacy of capitalist class rule in the USA among the eyes of the working class.

Unless they did something to try to reverse or stunt the Soviets' growth, which is where the second part of your post comes in.

>The main reason the USSR failed was that it proportionally had to spend so much more of its resources on the military compared to US.
Yes, and why did it have to do this?
Why did the Soviets go for more guns at the expense of butter?

Not because they wanted to, or because socialism requires this, but because the US imposed this constraint on them by starting off and then intensifying the Arms Race, threatening the Soviets and PRC with nuclear annihilation from their gigantic mult-thousand missile and increasing arsenal.

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>>2459621
>not an argument

>>2459143
It was causally due to collectivization so it was man made. Whether it was intentional is up to debate, pleas to lower the quota and stop taking grain from Ukraine were likely ignored because lower ranks feared criticizing upper ranks.

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>>2459692
>It was casually due to collectivization
false
It was entirely due to environmental circumstances, complicated by a typhus epidemic that occurred at the same time and the weakened state of industry/agriculture to be able to deal with these environmental circumstances due to the foreign intervention and White Army's destruction in the Civil War.

Also, notice how Soviets never again experienced a famine or food shortage, with the exception of the immediate post-WW2 for a year after the Nazis had invaded and murdered 27 million Soviet citizens and laid waste to Soviet industrial and population centers in the western SSR's.

Notice also how before the Soviets, Russia and Eastern Europe had been subject to frequent and much larger, more destructive, more deadly famines to the extent that it was almost a routine occurrence for the peasant serfs to suffer throughout the centuries of feudalism.

But of course, those are inconvenient facts for the Ukrop fascist Neo-Nazi Banderistas and their CIA handlers to swallow.

>>2453756

Only in your mom's bedroom

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>>2459473
>mass migration from capitalist countries in Asia/Africa/Latin America that are also neo-colonial puppet states whose resources and economies are pilfered for the benefit of the ruling capitalist class in the imperialist West, causing mass starvation and abject, approaching or practically propertyless serf or slave-tier conditions
>migrants naturally flee en masse to the West, the center of world empire and the international dictatorship of the United States, to avoid these conditions and aim for a distant, unlikely shot at achieving the mythical "American Dream"

>capitalism causes mass starvation and miserable existence and/or puppet dictatorships in the majority of the planet
>this forcibly uproots countless hundreds of millions of migrants and refugees
>this proves capitalism is superior
m8, how deep do you want to dig this hole?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bRiMyv22GI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU5P5noXZQA

>>2459817
Thank you.

I love tankies who know their shit.

>>2454597
I'm socialist and even I know that Kim Jong-Un is an asshole.

>>2454967
>that statistic comes from a country we don't like so it has to be false
>why is maternity leave and gender equality in the workplace a bad thing
Are you trolling?
>health resorts were gulags
ebin

>>2455230
But because le niggers le XDD!!! Le niggers le don't le count cause they're not le humans XDD!! Not REAL capitalism!!!11!!!!

>>2453756
It's like asking whether there exist completely virtuous human beings: a stupid question

>>2459856
>litereally designed to break
>in communism glass is not a brittle material
sure stupid fuck

>>2457373
There's a similar list about capitalism published by the same site, and they've written quite a bit about right-wing nutcase dictators. Funnily enough, you don't see those as often condensed into images like that and posted on 4chan.

>>2459817
>comrade stalin dies
>no famines after that
>blame environmental circunstances to the famine stalin caused

>>2457583
Objectively false. There are Haitians in Cuba. Many of them fled there from US-sponsored killings. I'm sure there would be more of them if Cuba wasn't so hard to get into.

>>2453756
its impossible to implement so no

Actual communists where the first to be shot under the Bolshevik regime. The Soviet Union was merely the Russian Empire painted red, as Brusilov quickly noticed.

It has been the same in every other country that adopted communism ever since. It was merely a more societally acceptable vessel for nationalist policies, from China to Cuba.

During the Cold War, there was more communist influence in the West than in supposedly "communist" countries. Too bad so few anti-communists realized that, pic related.

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>>2460796
Forgot the actual picture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Parker_Yockey

>>2458614
That image is garbage

>>2461252
>I'm such a cuckold I get mad at FICTIONAL ANIME CHARACTERS asserting their material self-interest

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>>2461461
>try to copy fascist 2d imagery to look like you can be cool too
>fail miserably

>>2461482
Anime isn't fascist, kill yourself

>>2462203
Anime is the only cultural industry not taken over by Jews or Cultural Marxists. It's anti-revolutionary art par excellence.

>>2462203
>fascist 2d imagery
Learn to read

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>>2462242
>>Anime is the only cultural industry not taken over by Jews or Cultural Marxists.
>he doesn't know anime only got started because of the communist party of Japan

>>2458633
>Signs were posted up in villages reminding people cannibalizing your young was wrong

>everything was a-ok in the region

>>2462242
>Cultural Marxists
I thought this meme was dead.

>>2459089
>I disagree. Revolution/seizure of the means of production is only central to the socialist stage, not communism.
Isn't the socialist stage supposed to happen after the capitalist stage and before the communist stage? My understanding was that the stages are supposed to happen in sequence. Reformed Christian communities are missing the pretty vital communist concept of revolution, which they would oppose in favour of the Bible's teaching of non-violence, let alone the fact that nowhere in the Bible is it taught that the means of production should be owned by workers. I think anyone would agree that the Bible at least leans toward private ownership.

>Also historically those Christian movement predate capitalism by a couple centuries.
They may nominally predate capitalism depending on when you think capitalism started, but I'd say it's obvious that their entire theology, politics and lifestyle all stem from Calvin, who basically invented America. Prior to the reformation there was little recognition of the inherent value of work, which became the Protestant work ethic, or more specifically the Puritan work ethic. Remember the Puritans theologically descended from Calvin and were trying to purify the English church to make it more reformed. Some people even called the American revolution the "Presbyterian revolution". The Amish and Hutterites are definitely part of the same capitalist movement of America and western Europe, with the smallest governments, most devotion to pacifism and greatest pride in work ethic.
I'm not sure if you're trying to give credit to communism or whatever, but think about what the heritage of Amish and Hutterite groups and what they historically identify with. It's not communism of any sort.

>>2462411
Did it actually? I've seen people saying that anime is actually conservative, but it seems too pedophilic and feminine to be conservative

>>2453758
Dumbest thing I've ever read.

>>2462677
Not that guy but wouldn't you agree that there aren't any substantial countries that have fully abolished private property (means of production owned by workers) or fully abolished government (means of production owned privately)? There are really only inbetweens

>>2453756
If you apply the Communist Manifesto to reality you get the result we've seen every time it's been applied to reality, because that's what it's saying you should do. The only people denying this are commies who have gone too deep to admit that they can't swim and people who don't know anything about communism but that heard from their communist cousin or college friend that it's not a bad idea in theory.

>>2453833
>>2453843
The problem is that you're working under different definitions of socialism. Historically the term has meant an economic model in which the means of production are publicly owned which has been the goal of both social democracy and communism. The former seeking to attain it through democratic means and the latter claiming that it can only be achieved through a violent revolution.

The more modern usages of the terms, however, is usually that social democracy and socialism are synonyms as terms for a mixed economy with strong welfare, while communism still means what it used to.

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>>2455016
>Explain to me how the newly born Soviet state could have possibly survived the foreign intervention of 14+ foreign capitalist-imperialist powers in the Civil War in 1918

each nation in that conflict not really giving much of a shit and themselves being devastated by a world war that had lasted the better part of the decade.

>the Nazi-fascist Lebensraum genocidal blitzkrieg.

The winter and using the proletariat for sandbags (sheer numbers). Hitler stupidly assumed that he could conquer the whole of Russia before the colder seasons set in and tried to sustain a war on two fronts with the other nations of Europe, which at that point was the whole of the British Empire with aid starting to pour in from the U.S.

>>2459537
>Vietnam won, however, thank Jeebus
Eh. The US was forced to pull out after the public oppinion shifted against the war due to the now famous photograph of an execution. The war wasn't actually going that badly before then.

>>2459537
Vietnam lost, South Vietnam that is. Because America betrayed them.

>>2462675
Pedophilia is very conservative

>>2462794
Communists know much more about communism than you do

>>2462963
The US pulled out because it normalized relations with China thus isolating Vietnam and making it impossible for them to conduct a "people's war" across Southeast Asia.

>>2462692
Dumbest thing I've ever read.

If nothing else I love /leftypol/ for the entertainment

>>2463022
It was conservative moralists who pushed age of consent to 18.

Pedophilia in the past like Muhammad and Aisha was more due to apathy.

>>2463062
Saying anything is "conservatism in a blanket statement like that tends to be just wrong. Also you seem to be mistaking moralism with conservatism.


Conservatives can be both strongly against pedophilia and pedophiles, only some of them do argue in the same old "back in the day" logic that 11 yos are fair game. Because society was so great in the past and all.

>>2463062
>>2463074

Ehm, I meant to answer to the post you answered.

No, because it's failed every single time it's been tried. Post communist countries (except for Russia, which has just drifted to right-wing nationalism) have come to fucking hate the idea of communism and will never touch it again.

>>2459600
>Gradually abandoning communism in favour of capitalism

It's either that or collapse spectacularly a la USSR or Yugoslavia.

Oh well, if it gets mongoloid socialist knuckle-dragging communists to accidentally support capitalism, because they'll believe anything a red flag and yellow star tells them, I guess I'm fine with it.

>>2463026
You'd think, but actually talking to communists prove that they overall are exactly the same kind of people who unironically think that Trump will "make America great again". That is, they are not exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer.

Communism is just a utopian happy ending dreamed by the people who realized just how bad capitalism could get in the 19th century.

>>2454563
>>2454139
>>2454077
is this irony? a meme?...
this can't be serious i refuse to believe

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>>2462925
>not really giving much of a shit
For "not really giving much of a shit", the USA, UK, France, Germany, Japan etc. sure seemed a bit concerned considering that they ganged up 14 vs. 1 against the newly formed Soviet state.
And the Bolsheviks STILL repulsed them all from Soviet lands.

>le winter and numbers meme xD
>doesn't know about defense in depth
Stalin's rapid Soviet industrialization, collectivization and fortification of the Western front in the decade prior to Nazi blitzkrieg was objectively critical to Soviet victory.
Also deep battle and defense in depth.

Nazi's colonialist genocide plans in East Europe up to Urals and beyond were foiled by reality.
Cold, hard reality of ass-blasted by Katyusha rocket non-stop poundings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLi0Fxfqtdk [Embed]

Shout outs to Belarus: last Soviet socialist state in Europe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFqS-u0Cre4 [Embed]

Shout outs to Syrian Arab Republic: last Arab socialist nation on the planet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ay3XLcGSO4 [Embed]

Shout outs to Hezbollah: spearhead of Axis of Resistance to U.S.A. and Zionism in Arab world
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4mphIZEpA0 [Embed]

Shout outs to Islamic Republic of Iran: core of the Axis of Resistance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlpagxWhwJE [Embed]

Shout outs to Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1p8T9nqOnY [Embed]

Shout outs to Cuba
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoyOFNV1Wxc [Embed]

Shout outs to Russia: stay firm against NATO aggression, return to Soviet model, don't fall for Trump/Bannon tricks to divide & conquer China/Russia/Iran axis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGOoTm1dYdU [Embed]

Shout outs to People's Republic of China: stay firm against USA aggression in Pacific
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCnaX2PVxFY [Embed]

Shout outs to Democratic People's Republic of Korea: one of last few socialist nations on the planet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-cWt6Q7pO0 [Embed]

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>>2454870
>tovarisch!
cringe

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>>2464096
>>2459586
>>2459537
>>2458991
>>2458074
>>2458048
>>2457727
>>2457288
>>2457262
>>2457091
>>2455016
>>2454870
>>2454664
>>2454597
>>2454139
>>2454077
i thought the whole Communist retard meme was just a meme, aparently it's not merely a meme.

You made me reply so have a (you) and a glorious Czech Hussar to cuck you

>>2463062
Nope, first wave feminists passed age of consent laws

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>>2464096
Shout outs to resistance factions for free Palestine (PFLP, Hamas, Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade etc.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eKptWHr4Os [Embed]

Shout outs to Zimbabwe, last African nation to fully resist West's neo-colonialism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfjBfXYrHIk [Embed]

Shout outs to Democratic Republic of Congo and its patriotic front against neo-colonialism, strong ties to People's China and Zimbabwe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keiaylUDQw4 [Embed]

Shout outs to Green resistance to restore Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74PT-LXLmRo

Shout outs to EZLN, EPR in Mexico
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56Tkcs6Ppi4 [Embed]

Shout outs to DHKP-C and MLKP against fascist Erdogan in Turkey
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AI0g2_Kyqc [Embed]

Shout outs to Iraqi resistances
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW-tIrziH48 [Embed]

Shout outs to NPA, CPP and National Democratic Front in the Philippines
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tN1tgw4O8M [Embed]

Shout outs to Afghan resistance to NATO occupiers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVWja5MthQM [Embed]

Shout outs to Yemen Houthis against Saudi dogs, USA and Zionists
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpZBjxS0ek4 [Embed]

Shout outs to Basque ETA for free Euskadi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCN-Sj9eIB4 [Embed]

Shout outs to FLNC for free Corsica
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvthtcRzT0U [Embed]

Shout outs to movement for free West Papua
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv9SQap_9z4 [Embed]

Shout outs to IRA for united Ireland free from British colonial occupation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6OqhIB5kMo [Embed]

Shout outs to Donbass resistance front against Ukrop fascists Neo-Nazi genocidal occupiers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I0Bgb-vAAY [Embed]

>guaranteed replies

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>No matter how bad or depressing your mundane life gets, you'll never be a deluded redfag trying to argue communism works on an anime imageboard

Thanks commies for making my shit life seem more bearable compared to yours

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>>2464160
>>2464697
>can't refute the arguments
>call them a retard
like clockwork

>>2464708
>arguments
lmao

>>2464708
It's useless to argue with the insane; you'll never listen to an opinion to runs counter your own.

>>2464708
Again, what's the point of arguing on 4chan? You think you've won an argument here, congrats. Do you honestly think that accomplishes anything?

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>>2464708
>>can't refute the arguments
what >>2464718 said, also
C R I N G E

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Look at the horrors of the capitalist world, that trades happiness and life for GDP lmao

>>2464749
>Health officials say this is the sixth year in a row that Cuba has seen under 5 deaths per 1,000 births, a number that ranks lower than both Canada and the United States, say officials.

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>>2454978
>Le IndoChina Wars
>Pol Pot is /ourguy/ and a real communist! xD

Khmer Rouge was directly supported by the U.S.A.
The US covered Pol Pot's ass when he was hiding from justice for his crimes against the Cambodian people.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Terrorism/UncleSam_PolPot.html

>>2454139
>Majority of East Germans today want the DDR back because they've experienced both socialism and capitalism and learned the hard way that capitalism a shit.

I live in Lithuania and there also is some socialist nostalgia, but dude, we suck at capitalism because we were a socialist country. Going back to the root of the problem and living in a delusional world doesn't sound good.

Socialism is like a drug--the later you withdraw from it, the worse the side effects are.

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No.

Because communism is an unachievable utopia, built on mutual and imaginary trust and free shit.

>>2457984
>Mozambique, Angola,
Bruh do you even history? Rhodesia, and South Africa created civil wars in those countries where they literally used their version of the CIA to create rightwing death squads to destabilize the country.

>Vietnam
>that period where France and the USA destabilizing the region from the 1950s-1970s doesn't count.

Go back to /r/history.


>>2457957
>>2457583

You know Cuba, unlike most of the world, has strict border controls and does not hand out gibs to every refugee that comes to them? You know Cuba is very nationalistic and hates black people and other leeches?

>>2465660
>Cuba hates black people
Fidel overturned the racial discrimination and slave-tier feudal conditions in the countryside that disproportionately hit Afro-Cubans the hardest during the Batista era.

Cuba provided refuge to Assata Shakur and Fidel made a point to specifically visit Black Harlem.

>>2465773
You got me there anon.

But would you agree with me that Cuba and other ex-communist nations had way stricter boarder control and refugee policies compared to countries nowadays?

>>2466302
I've never heard of any communist nation turning immigrants down, in fact it's quite often the opposite.

>>2466302
wtf? what are you talking about.

Also they are the always the first to send internatinal aid or ask Haiti

>>2466344
>The USSR had open borders!
>Communist China had open borders!
>Cuba had open borders!
u wut m8?

>>2466368
International aid=/=taking refugees

communism is dying, the future of the world is global capitalism

just look at the last vestiges of post cold war communism, they're gradually becoming capitalist

>>2466705
Name one nation that the USSR, China, or Cuba refused immigration from

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>>2466837

" According to the United Nations, 54 countries are poorer today than they were in 1990, about the time Communism was declared failed, and capitalism lionized as the single sustainable model of success. More children under the age of five are dying in 14 countries, and enrollment in primary schools is down in 12. Extreme poverty remains the fate of over one billion people. And in former Soviet republics — cradle to what has been dismissed as a failed system — poverty had tripled one decade into their liberation from Communism. Seventeen countries in Eastern Europe and the countries that made up the former Soviet Union have hardly become dynamos of prosperity, which should leave anyone with an ounce of gray matter wondering by what standard success is measured; surely not by the majority’s well-being. (3) "

...

" In 1953, the illiteracy rate in Cuba exceeded 22 percent. Today it is under one percent. Three percent of those over the age of 10 had a secondary school education. Today, almost 60 percent do. Back then, at the height of the sugar harvest, when unemployment was lowest, eight percent were jobless. Today, the unemployment rate is three percent, making Cuba one of the few countries in the world to boast full employment.

Well over 80 percent own their own homes, and pay no taxes. The remainder pays a nominal rent.

No other country has as many teachers per capita. Education is free through university. The country also provides free university educations to 1,000 Third World students every year. And classroom sizes put those of Western industrialized countries to shame."

https://gowans.wordpress.com/2010/05/09/a-failed-systems-failed-promises/

(cont.)

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>>2466837
>>2468493
(cont.)

" Health care is free. And while the United States has deployed over 300,000 troops in almost 130 countries to keep markets open to US investment, Cuba has sent 50,000 doctors to work for free in 93 Third World countries to heal the sick. (12)

Infant mortality is lower than in any other Third World country and even some Western capitalist countries (it’s higher in Washington, DC.) Life expectancy is 76 years, and is expected to rise. (13) By comparison, the return of capitalism has pushed life expectancy down in former communist countries.

These gains, seldom mentioned in the United States, place the country head and shoulders above other Latin American countries firmly ensconced in the US orbit, for which Washington’s single sustainable model of success continues to deliver grinding poverty, misery, and gross inequality, but the profits necessary to keep the capitalist system afloat and the capitalist class awash in mansions, retinues of servants, stables of luxury cars, exclusive schools and private clubs. "

https://gowans.wordpress.com/2010/05/09/a-failed-systems-failed-promises/

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>>2466837

" There are elections, and, contrary to Washington’s anti-Cuba propaganda, Cubans do vote. But they don’t choose among two largely identical parties, as in the United States, where the parties, and their candidates, are almost invariably in thrall to, or are representatives of, the capitalist class. As for human rights, Cuba stands as a model of what can be achieved by way of economic and social rights, the basic rights to food, housing, clothing, health care, education and jobs, enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but not recognized as human rights in the United States. (14) Washington, on the other hand, has made a fetish of civil and political liberties, which, in the case of its relations with Cuba, has everything to do with giving its agents in the country, mistakenly called “independent” journalists and “independent” librarians (they’re not independent of Washington, which bankrolls their activities), room to maneuver to organize destabilization, with the object of overthrowing the revolution and banishing economic and social rights in favor of investors’ rights. That Cuba, a poor country, has been able to guarantee the right to food, clothing, shelter, health care, education and jobs, despite trying economic circumstances and US hostility, can be seen as extraordinary, or simply what can be readily accomplished outside the strictures of capitalism. If a poor Third World country, harassed by a powerful neighbor, can deliver high quality health care and education for free, why can’t the world’s richest country do the same? The answer: Capitalism drives towards better profits, not better lives. "


https://gowans.wordpress.com/2010/05/09/a-failed-systems-failed-promises/

(cont.)

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>>2466837
(cont.)
>>2468493
>>2468502
>>2468508

" Ever since the US-dominated global economy has, with the collapse of Eastern Bloc Communism over 10 years ago, more boldly sought purchase everywhere, US military imperialism has run amok, wars of aggression have been started, and poor, and formerly communist, countries have become poorer. The leaders of the Western world declare capitalism to be the single sustainable model of success, but countries that rejected capitalism, and committed to egalitarianism, have done better in terms of guaranteeing economic and social rights than comparison countries, despite difficult circumstances. Meanwhile, those that have rejected egalitarianism in favor of a return to capitalism have regressed. The promises of peace and prosperity that attended Communism’s collapse were a fraud based in the self-interest of a narrow band of wealthy people in the world’s richest countries. That it is a fraud is richly evident in the failed promises and dismal record of the post-communist era. "


https://gowans.wordpress.com/2010/05/09/a-failed-systems-failed-promises/

(stop)

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Hasn’t history proven that Marx’s vision of an egalitarian utopia is unattainable, inevitably creating an oligarchy more oppressive to the proletariat than the bourgeoisie it vilifies?

>>2468664

Nope.

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>>2468664

>Marx wanted a utopian

You're a political illiterate rwho hasn't read Marx.

I'm no commie, but Marx knew there'd be wealth inequality in communist societies due to the "each to their own according their need and ability" theory he created, and he's on record criticising Proudhon, an anarchist philosopher and economist, for his vision of society to be too "utopian"

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>>2468664
>more oppressive to the proletariat than the bourgeoisie it vilifies
Um...no, try again sweetie.

Read through these posts top to bottom and try repeating that assertion again in good faith and with intellectual honesty.
>>2454563
>>2454664
>>2468493
>>2468502
>>2468508
>>2468519

>>2468737
>try again sweetie.
why do 2017 communists say this so often

is there some sort of significance to it

is there a joke i'm missing

please explain

>>2468758
Some liberal whore repeatedly called Trump sweetie on twatter and it became a meme for whatever reason.

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>>2468758
anon you replied to here

I have no idea who >>2468770 is referring to and I don't even use twitter kek