Thou shalt not make graven images

WTF I hate kuffars now

>>2438021
>Ark of the Covenant had cherubim on it, Moses carried a snake-headed staff
>Hurr any depiction of anything religious is sin

Convert to Islam

>>2438031
>Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

Pretty fucking clear if you ask me.

>>2438021
Anabaptists are such tards
Images are made idols by action. As long as you don't go full papist and kneel to them and such, it's not idolatry.

>>2438103
So I'm going to hell for geology and hydrology? Great.

>>2438118
Blame your God, not me.

>>2438124
>your God
Bit presumptuous?

>>2438159
if it's not your god, you wont go to hell for it

>>2438021
Catholics are such pagan heretics

Statues and images help focus the mind to worship. They inspire devotion. In this regard they're allowed. Unless you'd rather people be spiritually dead.

>>2438236
But that's a baptist church

>>2438115
It's still not.

>>2438021
All religions that don't allow idolatry stagnate. You need a visual symbol to invoke spiritual feelings.

Glad Catholics and the Orthyodox found a loophole because otherwise their they wouldn't have aided in the revolution of western art and aesthetics,

&humanities belongs in /b/ with the other argumentative retards.

>>2440466
>You need a visual symbol to invoke spiritual feelings.
wtf

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>Baptist

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>>2440496
It's a psychological thing, the reason seeing a landscape or clouds or the night sky feels deep and meaningful.

>>2438103
>Draw a fish
>Go to Hell
Woooooooow

>>2440466
Islam? Growing fast as fuck.

>>2440496
I'm not religious, but I get why people need symbols. It's a mix of beauty and symbolism that invokes certain emotions. Think about the time when you were a kid and it was Friday the 13th and you were convinced that good luck charm would work. You probably had a certain tingly sensation as your mind put emphasis on the property of the charm.

It's the same property, we are capable of emphasizing a property that isn't there on an object, we place a "spiritual" emphasis on it.

This is what a temple is, a sacred place. We build these beautiful high quality places in part as some sort of message to the divine. You go in and pretend you're psychically speaking out to another force and the temple is mentally establishes a conduit to the divine.

It's a convergent thing among almost all religions. What happened is Jews got REALLY REALLY salty over the Babylon and hated their neighbors. Praying to statues was a common thing in the area and a negative stereotype was placed on people that they were savages who literally believed the statues were their gods. So in an act of defiance they declared that idolatry was evil and that their god was great that nothing could depict him.

Then Christian came and sort of circumvented it with the cross, when Europe adopted the religion they further ignored the rage against Idolatry but really only pinning against pagans. When Islam formed it pretty much brought in back in the most aggressive way.

>>2440561
It's still stagnating, it's like religious cancer. Also they circumvent it with their re-purposed McTemple and Black rock.

>>2440609
>growing
>stagnating
What?

>>2440622
I'm obviously not referring to size.

>>2440640
To what then? You're being too vague.

>>2440466
>idolatry
>Catholic and Orthodox

Iconography. Idolatry is Latria given to Idols, Iconography is in the most basic, Dulia given to the memory of the likenesses in the image.

>>2440644
culturally. Idoltry encourages an increase in physical expressions of culture. This in turn leads to enlightenment periods which lead to great changes for the benefit of civilization. People strive the build the greatest beacons for their gods and to create more extravagant designs you need some ingenuity.

Islam fucking kills it's scholars every century or two years because they start thinking past the mindset of being a goat herder

On the other end of the spectrum, Orthodox jews are getting so annoying that even your average Israeli is starting to hate them.

>>2440664
That's a loophole. It's the same shit. It's like saying Catholics venerate Mary and don't worship her. Unless you can enter the mind of a catholic and see that he is focusing his prayers and spirit upon god with Mary their waving him on then you can't actually differentiate between the two.

Muslims think a SINGLE depiction of their prophet is Idolatry, the christian definition has been reduced to "statue of pagan god I don't believe in"

>>2440738
Who cares about culture

>>2440802
>Who cares about culture
Go to bed Horkheimer

>>2438021

That's not even really scratching the surface.

>4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

In other words any statues, pictures, photos, images etc of any kind were banned. The Jews of Jesus' time were almost completely iconoclastic so it is fair to say he would have been as well.

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>>2440756
>That's a loophole. It's the same shit.
So you having a photo of your dead grandma or pic related is idolatry?

>It's like saying Catholics venerate Mary and don't worship her.
Because veneration is literally the above two examples.

>Unless you can enter the mind of a catholic and see that he is focusing his prayers and spirit upon god with Mary their waving him on

That's literally what we are taught to think when praying the Rosary tho.

>>2438021

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clHQWqH09FM

>>2438021
>>2438103
What does "graven" mean? Is it just drawing?

>>2438021
>thou shalt not kill
God goes full Pol Pot in the OT
Christians support death penalty

>thou shalt not steal
But it's OK to take land from heathens

>thou shalt not covet thy neighbours wife
Porn sells best in christian communities


Why are christians not christians?

>>2440875
Specifically etching.

Really, the graven image bit isn't the focal point of the commandment, the part after it is.

>>2440907
ty

>>2440907
>>2440919

>or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth

>>2440939

But this means you can't draw anything ever

>>2440983

Yes. That is correct.

>>2440983
And?

>>2440983

Or write anything, if you take letters and numbers to be the visual likeness of sounds...

>>2441005

Pretty sure onomatopoeias are allowed,don't dilute the point with silliness.

>>2440826
My grandmother doesn't hold spiritual significance to the cosmology we're arguing about outside of being a soul placed in one of the two or three afterlife

That pictures doesn't hold any spiritual significance either in relevance to your cosmology, though there obviously is a similarity between national symbols and religious symbols. The difference is religion often takes the role as being the epicenter of ones reality and their idea of how the universe works, it's different.

Veneration is a loophole, you're argue that god is the power source and the being is the messenger, but how is this different from Hermes and Zeus? What you've done is simply alter the nature of Idolatry to refer specifically as non-christian worship through imagery when idolatry is use of ANY graven image.

No ones buys that the emote of spiritual ritual involving Catholicisms relationship with saints and Christ is not a form of Idolatry, hence why Protestants were quick to call you out.

>>2441045

You aren't allowed to draw anything.
Letters are drawn representations of sounds.
Numbers are drawn representations of amounts.
Therefore numbers and letters aren't allowed.

How is it silly?

>>2441045
You willing to bet your immortal soul on that?

>>2440664
>>2440826
The latria-dulia distinction is unbiblical

>>2441061

The people that wrote the bible didn't have any concept of modern scientific understanding of sound.

>>2441080

I would quite happily bet my "immortal soul" for a chicken drumstick.

>>2441083
The joke here is the catholics think I'm some salty protestant.

They get triggered by that age old argument because the jewish parts of the bible hate something they're guilty of.

But I'm clearly not a Protestant and my point is the easement of Idolatry rules allowed for Europe to developed a superior cultural identity that improved theory society.

Outside of Lutherans most protestants are stagnating just as bad as Orthodox Jews and Muslims. They need to get over ancient desert asshurt and accept that physical embodiments of worship make a superior religion.

>>2440550
As long as you don't worship it it's fine. Unless you're a Muslim. Then you'll go to hell.

>>2441100

You don't need a modern understanding of sound to know how writing works. Namely that it is drawn sounds.

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>>2441179
New International Version
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

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>Not mentioning the rest of the context.

"I am YHWH thy God, who have brought thee forth out of the land of Mitsráyim, out of the house of servants. Thou shalt not have other gods besides me. Thou shalt not make to thee an image, or any form that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth. Thou shalt not bow thyself down to them, nor be led to serve them; for I, YHWH thy God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of fathers upon sons, unto three generations and unto four, of them that hate me;"

And He Called (Leviticus) 19:4
"Do not turn unto things of nougt, and molten gods shall ye not make to yourselves; I YHWH am your God."

26:1
"Ye shall not make unto you idols, neither image, nor pillar shall ye set up for yourselves, nor sculptured stone shall ye place in your land, to bow yourselves down thereunto; for I YHWH am your God."

Clearly these commands were made with the intent to keep people from making representational idols to worship.

>>2441117
>easement of Idolatry rules

God approved? You sure?

>>2441175
Don't you know? People back then were dumb and didn't know what sound was, or how it worked.

We're far more evolved now.

>>2441175

You seem to be overestimating the understanding of primitives. They didn't understand "sound" as a physical "thing" that you could commit idolatry by drawing.

You are talking about people that invented the concept of a "soul" to explain breathing.

It was all magic to them.

>>2441216

So how do you explain the creation of writing in the first place then?

>>2441210
Jesus died so that means I can do whatever I want.

>>2441224

What? You'll need to expand on what you actually mean by that.

>>2441210
Listening to YHWH before he settled down and had a kid isn't a wise idea, he was just a young storm god craving foreskin and wanting to overthrow El, he didn't know any better.

>>2441248

Did writing come about as a way of recording spoken sounds, or did everyone just start drawing squiggles and lines and decide that the one that looks like a tent with a line through it represents "ay" for shits and giggles?

>>2441191
That was for a specific purpose it wasn't for worship.

>>2438103
>the old covenant (OT) is broken
are you an orthodox jew? who cares about the ten commandments, or the old testament - the Lord says if you love him you will (attempt to) keep his commandments, but when you fail like all shitty humans do.. all you need to do is ask for forgiveness.

>>2441264

But the original discussion was about idolatry as I pointed out primitives didn't understand sounds as a physical "thing" in the way we would understand it.

Saying "how did writing come about then?" is a complete non-sequitur.

>>2441272
I hate this about Christianity.
Jews on sinning
>Don't do it
Muslims on sinning
>Don't do it
Christians on sinning
>Just ask for forgiveness lmao

It's a small wonder the Christian world is a moral abyss.

>>2441315
Humanity lacks the ability to hold on to sins for more than week unless they've very severe, even ancient people knew that eventually most shit is forgiven, we don't have the attention spans or energy to care forever about whether or not someone stole something.

The goal is always to reduce issues and make it known that they are wrong, not an eternal punishment or else option.

Jews and muslims kill over the simplest shit, their mortality is degenerate.

>>2441315
>has no understanding of Abrahamic religions
Grow your sideburns out then and avoid wearing clothes with a wool and linen mix.

>>2441295

To which I ask, if they didn't see sounds as a physical thing, how did writing come about, if not as a physical way of recording a sound? They either didn't see it that way and writing spontaneously poofed into existence, or people sat down and decided that this picture means this sound and that picture means that sound.

Either way, it's still drawing, therefore forbidden.

>>2441315
Christian theology knows that only a few selected people can stay sinless. For the average human being that's impossible.

>>2441347

You don't need to fully understand something as a physical "thing" to be able to construct words about it.

>Either way, it's still drawing, therefore forbidden.

Not at all.

>>2441373
Nope. Just one. Jesus.

>>2441374

How is it not drawing? When you put a pen to paper, do the words just magically flow out and appear on the page?

>>2441240

You sure? Seems like mocking God is a bad idea to me.

>>2441100
I want you to realize that betting your soul is something you will regret saying later if you have a little of love for God left in you. Don't behave like that.

>>2441254

Okay, canaanite. Whatever you say. Keep reminding people why God ordered you people scrubbed off the face of the earth.

>>2441315

Do you think you live 1 second without sinning?

If so, you don't know what sinning is.

>>2441390
Yeah, I was about to add that even the saints aren't free from sin (namely the Original Sin)

>>2441374
Stop being a deliberately obtuse faggot for the sake of a shitty bait argument on 4chan. Writing is by definition a graven image that represents an object, an abstract depiction but a depiction none the less, ergo using the type of strict reading of the commandment you suggest would mean that even writing would be forbidden.

>>2441391

It is not a likeness of a physical entity.

>>2441393

Kek.

Don't make me call the Holy Spirit a dirty little faggot.

>>2441396
I'll show you marys some REAL fucking sinning, yeeeeehaw! *multiple gunshots*

>>2441405
You don't know what a saint is.

>>2441394
>Jews were in fact caananites too.

Oh the ironing.

>>2441411

Does it say "physical entity"?

>>2441411
Your intellectual maturity is that of a children if you think blasphemy against God makes you feel funny or smarter.

Nope; even children know better.

>>2441406
And now you realize why the Law of Sin and Death drives people mad.

They made rules like women couldn't wear a ribbon in their hair in the sabbath, because that would be bearing a burden. That if you dragged a stick behind you, you were plowing a field. If a grass seed stuck to your sandal, you were harvesting grains. All violations of the sabbath.

It was a system to drive men mad, and it worked as intended. It worked so well that its best and brightest adherents were within arm's reach of their God and could not see him.

>>2441413
That would likely lead to a transgression, or an iniquity. You are in a constant state of sin.

>>2441414
What are they?

>>2441406

Sound was not an object for the people that wrote the Old Testament. This has nothing to do with me being obtuse whatsoever and everything to do with you being unable to grasp that the people that wrote the OT had no fucking idea what sound was.

>>2441420
Yeah, they weren't. Nice try though. Not all semites have the same family trees.

>>2441423

Yawn.

>>2441421

?

>>2441429
All born again Christians are saints; all born again Christians have been sanctified by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Only God can make a person a saint, not papists. Never papists.

>>2441430
3 chapters in.

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

>>2441432
They literally believed in the same deities, genes can be disputed though.

>>2441444
>using a translation to make a point about whether or not Hebrews knew about sound

The original term used was "voice"

>>2440622
It is growing because of birth rates, I believe Christianity is still converting the most people.

>>2441447
Nope. You're just a dope.

El the main canaanite god, a demon, had three demon children Ba'al, Molech and Asheroth.

YHWH did not.

The God of the Jews was never the god of the Arabs; still isn't.

I've shown you the Meshe Stele a dozen times; apparently you're incapable of reading it.

>>2441396
Well yeah because I don't believe in sins.

>>2441449
I'm saying it's absurd that people didn't use to know what sound is.

Sound the trumpet.

Blow air into the trumpet and make noise.

Blow air out of your lungs and out of your mouth to speak.

I put it down to your being brainwashed about evolution.

>>2441461
And still don't know what it means.

I wonder how you don't believe in something you're unaware of with such bravado.

>>2440896
because christianity for most people isnt really a religion anymore but a cultural heritage that only slightly impacts morals

>>2441466
All atheists are like that. Their worldview comes from arrogance and it reflects into their "arguments"

>>2441203
shhhhh, this anon is just trying to trigger retards

>>2441449

>a voice isn't made of sound

>>2441477
The combination of ignorance and arrogance is just so deadly.

>>2441457
>El
>IsraEL
>No correlation at all.

>I've shown you the Meshe Stele a dozen times
Who do you think I am?

>>2441466
>And still don't know what it means.
Then enlighten me.

>>2441462

You seem to be completely misunderstanding the entire conversation.

Obviously people from very ancient times have understood there is such a concept as "sound" and used it to communicate with each other.

They weren't aware that sound was caused by physical vibrations in the air and was an actual "object" that you could they didn't claim you could commit idolatry by making a physical representation it.

>>2441503
>>No correlation at all.
The only coorrelation is etymological

>>2441503
An idiot who cannot tell Jehovah from Ba'al.

If you're a different idiot than the last idiot who could not or did not read the Meshe Stele, read the Meshe Stele.

Can't imagine there's two of you.

>>2441512

It's historical fact that kingdom of Israel followed the same ancient city state based religious beliefs as the rest of the region. Yaweh was their resident god at first, then evolved into a replacement for El.

>>2438103
There are different words in the OT for "image" which have theological nuances.

http://pastebin.com/bN1ujq2x

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>proddies

I will never understand why these retards enjoy getting BTFO in every thread so much

>>2441506
Ah, yes. Light.

To sin is to miss the target. An archer shooting an arrow at a target and completely missing it. That's the idea.

The target is "be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect".

And all of us have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

None of us have become like God through the knowledge of good and evil, like the devil promised Eve.

Turns out the devil lies. Who knew?

>>2441511
So they made trumpets at random, as well as hundreds of other instruments, and they all just happened to harmonize for them.

Wow.

>>2441529
Yeah no I don't believe in that on the count I don't believe in god.

>>2441525
Bullshit. When the Hebrews betrayed their God and worshiped foreign gods, they were worshiping the gods of their neighbors.

Foreign gods.

Cheating spouse.

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>>2441525
>whatever my pseudo-intellectual cultural marxist professor tells me is historical fact

>>2441527
What color is the sky in your world? In ours, there haven't been "proddies" for 500 years.

>>2441536
What impact do you imagine your disbelief has on God?

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>>2441527

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>>2441542
>>2441550

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>>2441562

>>2441511

Being able to run does not mean you are able to grasp the physical effects of anaerobic exercise.

I have to ask at this point what is even your end argument here?

I've lost track of whether you are non-religious and mocking the religious or whether you are religious and trying to argue making trumpets and blowing them is the same as making idols.

>>2441562
Perhaps you were unaware that Martin Luther was a catholic friar?

Perhaps you were unaware that the reformation was driven by catholics disgusted by the vatican, but who still desired to be catholics?

Yes, what do Jesuits teach you children these days.

>>2441578
>the reformation was driven by catholics disgusted by the vatican, but who still desired to be catholics?
We didn't leave Rome, Rome left us

>>2441533

Oops this >>2441577 was meant for you >>2441533

>>2441573
Even if they know it's a fraud and a forgery, it's unlikely that they care. Never met a group with more cognitive dissonance.

We have an unbroken line of popes back to Peter, and at least a dozen anti-popes are in that chain.

Wut

Our church was founded by Jesus and never changes; that was then, this is now.

Wut

Our beliefs are the same since 1854, when Jesus started our church.

Wut

>>2441583
The key is to never bend the knee to Rome, and never have anything to do with Mystery Babylon.

>>2441584
So the craftsmen were ignorant in their making of trumpets and such, and didn't make them with varying pitches on purpose.

kek

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>>2441430
Who is talking about sound?
The writing system itself uses highly simplified depictions of physical objects. Aleph for example is an ox-head.

>>2441538
That's not how it works. The ancient system of belief that started is Sumeria was that the deities that governed the universe were too great to deal with the issues of mortal men. As such the cities held deities themselves which acted as organizers of divine assemblies. Your main god was thus your city god, not the divine rulers of all; you had to go through your god to get your prayers answered by the higher beings.

What happened is some sort of religious movement occurred in Israel where Yaweh, their city god, was slowly replacing El as chief deity, which eventually led to their brand of monotheism.

>>2441541
>Archeologists are wrong
>I'd rather take the religious idea that everything was just muh demons and any evidence that suggests my biased history created by a bunch of salty goat herders who lost a million times over is just Satan and commies.

You faggots don't even know that Ba'al was just a generic term for lord, applicable to any deity.

>>2441546
None, because there is no god to impact.

>>2441594
this is such bullshit, and has nothing to do with God.

I don't give a fuck how degenerate pagans start their regions.

Just leave God out of them.

>>2441590

What are you even talking about? How does....

>So the craftsmen were ignorant in their making of trumpets and such, and didn't make them with varying pitches on purpose.

...even lead on to whatever wider point you are trying to make?

>>2441594
>You faggots don't even know that Ba'al was just a generic term for lord, applicable to any deity.

Which you would know was Chemosh, if you had read the Meshe Stele.

As above, your ignorance stays with you.

And please try not to cut yourself on so much edge. It's super dangerous in the real world to be this edgy.

>>2441604

Because your disbelief drove him out of existence?

Are you on any prescription medication?

>>2441607
>People back then didn't understand sound.

>mfw your argument is shit, and they did.

>mfw orators spoke from natural amphitheaters on purpose.

>>2441611
He never existed in the first place.

>>2441623
Your disbelief had that much of an impact on the Creator that he never made the universe?

Wow, we should totally worship you!

But, if there's no creator, and he didn't make the universe, who was phone?

>>2441620

Ahhh.

I see. Crptic greentext.

The ultimate point of someone that has no point. Try explaining yourself and where you are coming from in actual paragraphs and sentences.

>>2441631
Well duh, things that don't exist don't make universes.

>Wow, we should totally worship you!
Now you're talking sense.

>>2441605
So was God just pretending to be a city god?

>>2441608
>Which you'd know was Chemosh

Chemosh was likely the city god of the Kingdom of Moab. It's more likely that the god the Old Testamet and Torah refer to as Ba'al was the storm god Hadad.

>>2441594
We get it anon, you hate God. No need to make up lies about Him.

>>2441642

So there's no universe.

That's going to be a hard sell. There seems to be a universe. We seem to be in it.

>>2441656
No, you're just an idiot who cannot differentiate between God and a demon, to your shame.

Elohim is YHWH is God. Elohim is never referred to as just "El" with nothing following it. It's always El Shaddai, etc.

El is a demon.

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>>2441677
>I am so unimaginative I cannot think of any other reason for the universe to exist than a skydaddy.

>>2441677
That's just the chemicals in your brain telling you there's a universe. It doesn't really exist

>>2441656
Nope, Ba'al Chemosh is Hubal is allah. Pretty clear lineage.

>>2441684

Yeah, I've tried really hard, and I just can't.

Can you?

See, I have this thing where a painting infers a painter, a building infers a builder, a code infers a coder, and a creation infers a creator.

Have I been doing it wrong all these decades?

>>2441685

The chemicals in my brain are part of the Universe.

>>2441685
Yes, that seems to be all you have, isn't it. Chemicals in a brain in a jar that somehow exist without a universe.

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>>2441588
Amen
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Revelation 18:4

>>2441696
I have decided that as Christians, we are the world's worst salesmen.

Here's something of infinite worth for free! Do you want it?!

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>>2438021
>it's a protestants mistake art for heresy episode

>>2441657
>History board
>Can't discuss history because religious fags think it doesn't exist.

We could discuss the mythological reasons as to how things went down or we can look at actual history. You shouldn't confuse the two.

>>2441683
>El is a demon
Proofs
>Elohim was never referred to as El
You're right, because he replaced him.

>>2441700
Bible's pretty clear.

Do we care what the bible says?

>>2441705
Kind begets kind.

El begat Ba'al, Molech and Asheroth, three of the worst demon gods known to mankind.

QED

>>2441705
No, the Arabs did not all become Jews or Christians.

Ever.

>>2441692
Yeah. My pet hunch is that the universe is actually man-made (or at possibly made by aliens). Not as in "We're living in the Matrix", but rather that intelligent life went back in time (though not exactly because before the universe there was no time) and made the universe.

The way I figure it, we know intelligent life that can create things exists and we know the universe exists. Thus it is more logical to assume that one created the other in an infinite loop of the chicken and the egg than it is to start filling in the blanks with things we don't know to exist like gods.

I mean the more we find out about physics the more clear it becomes that time is anything but intuitive. Time travelling advanced lifeforms seems less far fetched than omnipotent primordial dieties.

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>>2441705
>only atheists know history and everything else is a religious conspiracy

>>2441705
>actual history
No such thing, beyond the cataloguing of a people's claimed grievances and achievements, everything else is conjecture.

>>2441717
>this is what atheists actually believe
Atheism is a science-fiction religion

>>2441717

Not sure why you don't think God is an alien.

>>2441724
I don't think anyone else on the planet or in recorded history believes that besides me.

>Atheism is a science-fiction religion
Yeah dude, time-travel is out of the question but omnipotent, uncreated, infinite beings aren't.

>>2441720
So sad that you don't have an authority that is inerrant for the study of history that Christians do. I guess you'll just have to keep being surprised that they keep finding the things in the bible, like Pilate and the Hittite empire and the city of Jericho with most of its walls fallen down.

Just keep being surprised.

>>2441732
It might be. It might also be some advanced distant-future evolution of a non-human species on earth.

>>2441737
He is.

God is an alien. Just inter-dimensional, not extra-terrestrial. Same with the aliens we call angels.

I don't know what to call an omniscient spirit being who lives in unapproachable light anything but an alien.

>>2441741
>God is an alien.
That just brings us back to the problem of "where did god come from". And if we accept that god is an alien the problem of god is still a problem in the alien's home universe, where I would suggest that my solution would still imply.

Those aliens went back in time to create their own universe before creating ours. Or possibly they created ours first as a prototype for their own.

>>2441741
>>2441753
I also don't know why you assume god to be an "omniscient spirit being who lives in unapproachable light".

I would say it's more likely that "god" (meaning the source of our universe, without any supernatural connotations) is just a normal guy. Or maybe a normal alien, or maybe a normal sapient evolution of non-human terrestrial life.

>>2441733
>atheists would rather believe in paradoxes that defy the very materialist view of reality they pretend to follow rather than believe in God.

but the Trinity is too abstract and "contradictory" a concept to reconcile amirite?
Sad!

>>2441753
Not a problem, as he revealed he is an eternal being with no beginning and no end.

He has always been, and will always be, and you will meet him.

>>2441765
>paradox
How is it a paradox?
Clearly the universe exists.
Clearly creative entities exist.
Why not just assume one made the other?

>but what came first!
You're thinking about time totally the wrong way. As if it's a linear domino effect from one point to another.

I'm saying there is no "first" and there is no "last". There's just right now and what we can conclude from our perception of it.

>>2441763
I don't.

I take knowledge as revealed by God through his prophets and then his Son as truth.

1 Timothy
I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

>>2441775
>Not a problem, as he revealed he is an eternal being with no beginning and no end.
I do not believe such a being exists nor do I see any reason to.

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>>2441787
>He actually believes desert madmen who think god contacted earth to tell us not to masturbate.

>>2441789

Then we're back to "what do you think the effect of your disbelief is on reality?" Could you disbelieve a city out of existence?

More importantly, do you have a comprehensive and coherent alternative to "God did it"?

>>2441797
Not sure what the godless obsession with masturbation is, to be quite candid. Who do you think made it feel good? Who made your arms long enough to reach your junk?

>>2441799
Except we're not though. I've already shown you why god is unnecessary and that indeed the universe can be explained as self-evident (like god). Or at least the "first" universe can, but we have no reason to think that's not ours.

>More importantly, do you have a comprehensive and coherent alternative to "God did it"?
Yeah, we did it. As I've just been explaining.

Or possibly another creative life-form did it.

>>2441804
>Who do you think made it feel good? Who made your arms long enough to reach your junk?
Advanced time-travelling terrestrial or extra-terrestrial life. As I just told you.

>>2441784
>Why not just assume one made the other?
Because that's a paradox that violates causality. There is not a single other example of this phenomenon you could point to provide precedent or justification for this belief.

>I'm saying there is no "first" and there is no "last". There's just right now and what we can conclude from our perception of it.
So why would time travel be required for the creation of the universe if you do not recognize the concept of time in the first place? Your concept doesn't withstand the slightest scrutiny at any level, you have no reason or justification behind your belief other than the stubborn rejection of God.

>>2441816
No, you really haven't because such a thing is impossible. There cannot be an infinite regression; there cannot be spontaneous generation; and we are not in heat death. Nor could a series of bangs and crunches be infinite, as they would lose usable energy and information at each iteration, again ending in heat death.

You've just kind of kidded yourself.

>>2441820
Both wrong.

God does not experience time as we do, and he is not extra-terrestrial but inter-dimensional.

He also manifested as one of us so that he could save us from the results of our own foolishness. Maybe you have heard of him.

Does the name "Jesus" ring a bell?

>>2441708
I'm not finding evidence that El had those deities, except Ba'al if you mean Hadad.

Moloch was indeed a ancient Semitic deity but there is no evidence he was child of El, in fact there is very little known about him.

Asheroth isn't a word, but since you seem to be spouting vaguely biblical shit you're probably referring to the type of religious pole that was used to worship EL's wife Asherah, which jews hated because Babylonians up kept the tradition.

>>2441711
>Arabs
When did I mention Arabs? Moab was indeed in Jordan, but by around 2000bc it was primarily inhabited by Semitic descendants of the Amorites.

Amorties came from Syria.

>>2441719
Athiests don't get triggered when world history analyses things in retrospect to ones own religious beliefs. You can be an expert of Polynesian mythology but when anyone dredges up the history of the holy lands you freeze up, because you realize your faith follows the same cultural phenomenon as everything else.

>>2441822
I'm curious as to your reactions to the "religious" answers in this thread and other similar threads.

Do you find they have weight and merit, or no?

>>2441824
> what is the conservation of mass and energy

>>2441822
>Because that's a paradox that violates causality.
How is it though?
It only doesn't make sense if you consider time to be a linear domino effect, which I'm saying isn't actually true. The only solid thing we can conclude about time from our perception is this very moment.

>There is not a single other example of this phenomenon you could point to provide precedent or justification for this belief.
Yeah and there's no precedent or observed instance of a god.

The thing is this, while it does make assumptions, makes fewer of them and the ones it does make are more likely.

>So why would time travel be required for the creation of the universe if you do not recognize the concept of time in the first place?
I never said I don't recognize the concept of time, I said the way you think about time isn't right. You just take the intuitive mortal perception of it at face value, and I understand this is the way most people consider it and the way it's most generally useful to talk about it for that reason, hence the phrase "time travel" - it illustrates the basic concept without getting into semantics.

>Your concept doesn't withstand the slightest scrutiny at any level, you have no reason or justification behind your belief other than the stubborn rejection of God.
The irony is stunning. You sound exactly like an rabid atheist, just subtract the mention of "god".

>>2441835
>Jordan, but by around 2000bc it was primarily inhabited by Semitic descendants of the Amorites.
>Amorties came from Syria.

All Arabs. And as usual you're on the wrong track.

Hubal is HaBaal in Hebrew, the Ba'al of the Moabites. The Amorites were almost wiped out, and should have been.

>>2441846
Nothing that allows for universes to spring into existence, for sure. You're like Hawking denying that information is lost on an event horizon.

>>2441854
>Yeah and there's no precedent or observed instance of a god.

Literally thousands of them in the bible.

You're like a kid who kills his parents and then whines about being an orphan.

>>2441835
>Asheroth isn't a word
Asherah. The people of Israel had been settled in the promised land for only a brief time before their attention turned to the deities of the Canaanites. The Book of Judges chronicles this apostasy. The people forsook the Lord God to serve Asherah and her husband Baal (Ashteroth is an alternative name for Asherah, Judges 2:13 ; 3:7 ).

The name "Asherah" and its variant spellings occur thirty-nine times in the Old Testament. In a number of these instances, Baal is mentioned along with Asherah. Evidence from Ugaritic mythologies and other texts suggests that the term refers to both the Canaanite goddess and cultic objects facilitating her worship.

>>2441824
>There cannot be an infinite regression
And why is that?

> Nor could a series of bangs and crunches be infinite, as they would lose usable energy and information at each iteration
Except energy cannot be created or destroyed. The worst thing that could happen is maximum entropy, but even then we think that someday that will happen and then the universe will start to contract.

>>2441831
>Does the name "Jesus" ring a bell?
Yeah, and my space-age mortal gods sure as shit wouldn't let iron age spear-chuckers crucify them.

>>2441863
>le bible

Yeah dude, and there's many observed instances of time travelling godlike advanced life in Doctor Who. What's your point?

>>2438021
T. Closet Mudslime
kill yourself you fucking uptight faggot

>>2441838
I believe that humans are animals and the origins of the universe are beyond animal comprehension, therefore the explanations our ancestors formed over billions of years of evolution are perfectly adequate for our species. Anything more is an attempt at gaining self-knowledge through the act of auto-vivisection, it won't end well.

>>2441855
>All Arabs
If Syrians were Arabs then ancient Jews were Arabs, this is how retarded you sound.

You're looking at a very tiny region with very little means of isolation. With the exception of the sea people most of these people were basically very close ethnically.

>>2441870
Oh wow, I missed an alternate spelling! still right though.

>>2441875
Because it would never be "now".

Energy can become unusable, yes. Heat death is a real thing.

You'll bend the knee to Jesus sooner or later. You'd prefer sooner.

>>2441882
My point is the ability to distinguish between the only holy book on the planet and a rather stale BBC fictional program is important.

>>2441888
Then you'll be dealt with as an animal, and may God have mercy on your soul.

>>2441892
Semites include both Jews and Arabs, yes.

>husband Ba'al is not husband El

>the marriages of demons is important

>>2441895
But it is, clearly now is happening. Therefore we must consider what happens next and what happened before? I suggest that those two instances are actually more or less the same thing, as sooner or later one is going to run into the other. Like now for instance, that's an example of that happening. So you could consider the creation of the universe the "anti-now".

>Heat death is a real thing.
Of the universe? It's a possibility, but so is the big crunch.

>>2441898
It's not really though.

I mean would someone really just go around ancient Palestine telling lies? Of course they would.

>>2441917
You really don't retain well.

An infinite series of big bangs and big crunches would mean we are, right now, in heat death.

>>2441923
It really is, though. You're not talking "anyone", you're talking the Holy Spirit of God.

If you think God is a liar, then you have no hope of salvation.

>>2441932
>An infinite series of big bangs and big crunches would mean we are, right now, in heat death.
Why is that?

> you're talking the Holy Spirit of God.
Yes, I understand that is one of the lies they liked telling.

>>2441854
>The thing is this, while it does make assumptions, makes fewer of them and the ones it does make are more likely.

How does assuming physical objects do not require an initiating creative force to exist involve less assumptions, when you cannot point to a single example of that phenomenon in the universe?

>but God..
God is not a physical presence in the universe. Believing an extra-universal force is not bound by the constraints of the universe requires less assumptions than believing the universe is capable of acting in a way that violates all prior understanding of the constraints the universe is bound by. If you believe the universe is not bound by causality then you essentially believe anything can happen at anytime, for no reason, laws of physics be damned, which is essentially an infinite number of assumptions as nothing you observe is actually fixed in a permanent manner.

>>2441901
Do not begrudge me my path back to God, it is imperfect but it is the only one I have found.

>>2441906
Semite is a language group, the original inhabitants of the Levant aren't Arabs.

Understand that the original arab ethnicity comes from South Arabia.

It seems you have an issue grasping that over the course of a thousand years different ethnic groups take over different regions, commit genocide our breed with them. Amorites were nomadic and started in mesopotamia anyway so no, they're not arabs.

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>>2441949
>How does assuming physical objects do not require an initiating creative force to exist involve less assumptions,
That's not what I said at all, as a matter of fact that's the exact opposite of what I said. I said that intelligent non-divine life is the initial creative force. So something like this:

Humans came from the universe, and then created the universe, then came from the universe, then created the universe, and so on ad infinitum.

>God is not a physical presence in the universe
And believing in immaterial entities is a very big assumption.

>If you believe the universe is not bound by causality then you essentially believe anything can happen at anytime, for no reason
Let me put it to you this way.
Continue to imagine the universe as a domino effect, but an infinite loop of dominoes shaped like this.

The red bit is the universe in between creation (that we'd consider the first point in the past) and the point at which intelligent life goes back in time to create the universe (that we'd consider distant in the future). The blue bit is that journey "backwards" and the purple bit is the continued "linear" history after that point.

Like a set of dominoes that constantly keep setting themselves back up.

>which is essentially an infinite number of assumptions as nothing you observe is actually fixed in a permanent manner.
You only think that way because you're stubbornly attached to a linear view of time.

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>>2442010
>>2441949
Actually maybe it should be shaped more like this.

>>2438021
Reminder that Iconoclasm was BTFO by St John of Damascus

>Of old, God the incorporeal and uncircumscribed was never depicted. Now, however, when God is seen clothed in flesh, and conversing with men, (Bar. 3.38) I make an image of the God whom I see. I do not worship matter, I [16] worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake, and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honouring that matter which works my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God. How could God be born out of lifeless things? And if God's body is God by union (kaq upostasin), it is immutable. The nature of God remains the same as before, the flesh created in time is quickened by a logical and reasoning soul. I honour all matter besides, and venerate it. Through it, filled, as it were, with a divine power and grace, my salvation has come to me. Was not the thrice happy and thrice blessed wood of the Cross matter? Was not the sacred and holy mountain of Calvary matter? What of the life-giving rock, the Holy Sepulchre, the source of our resurrection: was it not matter? Is not the most holy book of the Gospels matter? Is not the blessed table matter which gives us the Bread of Life? Are not the gold and silver matter, out of which crosses and altar-plate and chalices are made? And before all these things, is not the body and blood of our Lord matter? Either do away with the veneration [17] and worship due to all these things, or submit to the tradition of the Church in the worship of images, honouring God and His friends, and following in this the grace of the Holy Spirit.

>>2442060
Ironically this is what everyone did, there is little evidence that cultures surrounding the isrealites literally believed their idols were gods.

Everyone used sacred objects to essentially worship a higher power, shit basically went full circle when St. John pointed this out.

>>2441045
The point itself is silly though.

>>2441706
Read the Apologia of St John Damascene

>>2441405
Mary.

>>2442010
>I didn't say physical things can defy causality I just said physical things can defy causality.
Stop it. If humans travel back in time to "create" the universe they then you are effectively claiming they are part of a spontaneously arising cycle of physical objects that somehow exist for no reason.

>And believing in immaterial entities is a very big assumption.
And yet still smaller than believing the universe spontaneously created itself in defiance of the laws of physics which govern all scientifically observed behavior of the universe.

>You only think that way because you're stubbornly attached to a linear view of time.
If your conception of time were truly nonlinear it would not require humans to perform a linear movement backwards in time to kick start the linear sequence of a concept which is supposedly nonlinear.

>>2441895
You are literally sociopathic

>>2442096
>exist for no reason
But there is a reason, the fact that it was created.

There's nothing "spontaneous" about it, that's like the atheist argument that god just popped into existence at some indeterminate point. It fundamentally understands the infinity involved in this process, it has been happening since forever, there is no beginning from which it can arise from. Just as you believe god has no beginning.

>And yet still smaller than believing the universe spontaneously created itself in defiance of the laws of physics which govern all scientifically observed behavior of the universe.
>spontaneous
There's that word again. See above.

>If your conception of time were truly nonlinear it would not require humans to perform a linear movement backwards in time to kick start the linear sequence of a concept which is supposedly nonlinear.
If time travel is a possibility and the past only exists because the future happened then clearly time is not linear. It's semi-circular.

>>2442081
But that's not the bobble

>implying the Church's interpretation of the Bible isn't the correct one

>>2443395
>jesus says to worship saints with pagan origins

>>2440756
>It's like saying Catholics venerate Mary and don't worship her.

If you think that a person was great, virtuous and want to imitate that person in their virtue does it mean you worship them?

>>2440550
In the water under the earth. You can't draw cave dwelling fish. Regular fish are fine.

>>2444490
Hilarious

>be proddie
>cannot draw art or take photos because it is idolatry

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>>2444471
Usually the protestant responds that "oh it's different because those people aren't being honored in a religious way"

>>2443397
Like?

>>2445769
>hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr prayer is worship, pagan!
dumbest fucking shit ever. Muzzies use the exact same reasoning too.

>>2442093
Well, sort of.

Due to Calvary's Salvific power transcending time and space, it actually spared her perfectly from sin, she was still going to receive it anyway since she was still human, but the sacrifice of her Son held it off of her before either of them was even born.

Hence Mary's Song in Luke chapter 1.

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>>2445769
>>2445792
>j-just venerating

>>2441706
No they don't. They only care what king pedophile communist Argentine says

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>>2445839

>>2444471
You can take it to that extreme, and many do. Where do you think the phrase "your idol has feet of clay" comes from?

>>2445792
Yes, because you assume the person in the afterlife can hear you.

Only God can hear your prayers.

So you're making Mary equal with God, as you made Mary Co-Mediatrix with Jesus.

Nothing in the Catholic church is per the bible. Nothing. Not even their bible.

>>2445839
>LOOK MA! I POSTED IT AGEN!!!!

Mary has no power to do shit on her own, Catholics know this. That's how it isn't idolatry and mere petitioning for her to join in our prayers. God is the only one who can answer prayer

>>2445864
Bullshit.

Their bible has Mary crushing satan's skull.

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>>2445849
Let me guess, the Muslims are just "venerating" the black cube too?

>>2445864
>mere petitioning for her to join in our prayers. God is the only one who can answer prayer

These are mutually exclusive, and you hold them both at the same time. Cognitive dissonance much?

>>2445864
>God is the only one who can answer prayer
Hail Holy Queen
Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
our life, our sweetness and our hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve:
to thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then, most gracious Advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us,
and after this our exile,
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen.
>J-JUST VENERATING

>>2445873
Seeing as how the black rock housed in that silver vagina used to be the head of their idol to Hubal, the chief god in the kaaba, I'm gonna have to agree with you.

>>2445863
>Nothing in the Catholic church is per the Bible.
Except the book of Revelation which pretty much describes the entire structure of the Mass.

>Nothing. Not even their bible.
WTF is this autism?

It's like saying "this Florida orange isn't a Florida Orange because despite getting the seeds in Florida I grew it 10 feet into southern Georgia so it's a Georgia orange."

It's the same text jackass.

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>>2445883
Any reason why it's wrong to venerate St. Baal while we're at it?

>>2445882
969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

v

Bible

1 Timothy 2
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus...

I honestly wonder if most Catholics would care that their religion contradicts the bible.

>>2445886
>Except the book of Revelation which pretty much describes the entire structure of the Mass.

It doesn't, at all. If you think the woman with the 12 stars for a crown is Mary, you're delusional. She's Israel. Joseph's dream? 12 stars? Running to Petra to escape the devil's flood?

And don't even get me started on your Eat God, Be God pagan bullshit. It turns my stomach.

>>2445868
Cute.

Cite the verses in all Catholic translations. All 18 of them.

>>2445887
I like the look on that one dude's face. "whatever, let's get this over with".

Ba'al is HaBaal in Hebrew, the Ba'al of the Moabites, Chemosh. aka Hubal. aka allah.

>>2445882
That's literally what the prayer entails though, "HELP US MOM! PRAY FOR US THAT GOD MAY HEAR."

Since you conveniently left out the final part "pray for us a holy mother of God that we may be made where the in the promises of Christ."

>>2445886
>Except the book of Revelation
You're right, here's what it says
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+18

>>2445897
I'll cite the D-R for you; that's the official papist fanfic.

Real bible: Genesis 3
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Catholic fanfic:
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

>>2445906
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IH8rHVb2vJw

>>2445904
>HELP US MOM!
"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope."
This is idolatry

>>2445910
>EWTN
Into the trash it goes

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>>2438021
>mfw OP has burned every photograph in his house

>>2445910
The blasphemy that is the mass is no where in scripture. You will never find this notion of a re-sacrifice, which is in fact directly contradicted by Hebrews.

>>2445909
Now cite the other 17.

Because guess what, the DR is trying to tie Eve to Mary with that and that Mary's "let it be done on to me according to your will" undoes what Eve just did by bringing for Salvation to crush Sin.

You would know this if you actually looked deeper into Catholic thought than just what your preacher at the karate studio/laundromat/church says

>>2445928
You have two Adams
You don't have two Eves

>ITT: Hurrrrr I don't understand any theology besides muh sola's but I'll still try to shit on the tradition that formulated the holy book I so vehemently argue has nothing to do with that tradition anymore

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>>2445944
Tell me more of this oral torah mr rabbi

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>>2445914
>Implying those qualities are inherent to Mary rather than being her Son's qualities that we venerate through her as Israel venerated YHWH through the Ark

I used to be a protestant like these guys but what got to me what was the verse
>When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! 27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

And that's even in the king james bible. If you're a follower of christ then mary is your mother. The fact that some of these protestants so viciously blaspheme their holy virgin mother (I used to be one of them) is more cognitive dissonance than anything. Why shouldn't she be a big deal in heaven? She's the mother of god.

>>2445953
Jesus isn't in her anymore. They weren't bowing to the Ark, they were bowing to what is inside the Ark.

>>2445927
>Brazil

Well that explains a lot.

I need it still doesn't because I don't know the exact circumstances of what's going on in the image. There's a lot you can gleam but that's all just gleaming, it's not actual context

>>2445959
Here's what should have gotten you
>If anyone preach any other gospel unto than I have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
But you went out that it may be demonstrated you were not of us. You have been cut off from Christ, you are severed from grace, and Christ profits you nothing.

>>2445928

Why don't you use the KJV again?

Because it doesn't make Mary a goddess?

Go ahead and cite any catholic bible that contradicts the D-R on this issue.

>I have 18 bibles and can pick and choose between them whenever I want.

>>2445922
>The blasphemy that is the mass is no where in scripture.
>what is the last supper

>>2445970
>I don't know the exact circumstances of what's going on in the image
The term is idolatry

>>2445928

One mediator. Jesus. Not Jesus plus Mary.

One redeemer. Jesus. Not Jesus plus Mary.

One salvation. By grace through faith. Not by grace through faith plus works.

You're a pagan. Be a pagan. Don't tell people you're a Christian.

>>2445977
I'll tell you what it was not; A sacrifice. The last supper was not a sacrifice for sin.

>>2445974
No, because the translation is a rather poor one.

http://jimmyakin.com/bad-translations-in-the-king-james-version

>>2445953

Mother of God. Not in the bible. Nowhere in reality.

Sorry.

>>2445989
Don't be hasty. They use the term to worship her, but the term itself is accurate, let's not fall into heresies that ought stay dead here.

>>2445959
Dude, he was having his longest living disciple take care of his mother until she died.

Has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation.

I'm not a son of Mary. I'm an adopted son of God, and brother to Jesus. I did not come out of Mary's womb.

>>2445977
The last supper is a passover meal.

Nothing to do with your pagan transubstantiation whatsoever.

>>2445981
No I mean why exactly are they there, what's the event going on today, what are they going to do later, what were they doing before this. There could be something entirely benign going on but you're just gleaning what you want to glean because it fits the narrative.

Besides, it's Brazil. The Magisterium really really does not like a lot of the shit going on in the Latin American Church, like Saint Death for example, so maybe these people are wrong even in the eyes of the Catholic Church for what they're doing

>>2445987
>http://jimmyakin.com/bad-translations-in-the-king-james-version

There's nothing in the Genesis field. Sorry.

Mary did not crush satan's head, and satan did not bruise her heel.

Only a Mother Earth cult would think that.

>>2445993
No, it is not.

Mary is the mother of Christ.

Not the mother of God. God is eternal. Yes, Jesus is God, but Jesus came down from heaven in the flesh to be born. He pre-existed Mary by, oh, an eternity.

The term "mother of God" is not in the bible.

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>>2446004
>what's the event going on today, what are they going to do later, what were they doing before this
Worship of creatures, that's what's going on
>Besides, it's Brazil
And this is from a white country, your point?

>>2446004
Best guess for this image: people worshiping the pope

Why are protestants so tasteless?

>>2445984
>One mediator. Jesus. Not Jesus plus Mary.
>What is a chain of command?
>What is an advocate

>One redeemer. Jesus. Not Jesus plus Mary.
>implying we believe she's a redeemer

>One salvation. By grace through faith. Not by grace through faith plus works.
Remind me again why you remove James? Is it because it puts a massive hole in your plans, eh Marty?

>You're a pagan. Be a pagan. Don't tell people you're a Christian.
You have a really pathetic idea of paganism then.

>Hello there! I am an evangelical protestant. My knowledge of faith traditions outside my own amounts to very little, but nothing gets me more excited than discussing Catholics, who are dirty pagans, well, because I said so!

>>2446009
>Not the mother of God. God is eternal. Yes, Jesus is God, but Jesus came down from heaven in the flesh to be born
If Jesus of Nazareth is the exact same person as God the Son then by definition she is mother of God. No one is saying that she created Him, but you are dividing the natures, mothers do not create their sons, if God was made flesh then God dwelt in her womb.
>The term "mother of God" is not in the bible
Neither is the term trinity.

>>2446020

One mediator means one.

One redeemer means one.

One salvation means one.

That you would elevate the non-disciple, non-believing James over the greatest apostle and author of most of the NT because you think he backs your argument is laughable.

You have no idea that James is a Judaizer, and condemned by Paul as such.

As above, and as you were told, any different gospel, like one plus works, is accursed.

Romans 4
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

>>2445986
It is directly tied to Calvary by Christ's own words.

>>2445989
>Oh look it's this fucker again
How's it feel knowing you can't into basic logic and realize that "Mother of God" is an appropriate title for her since Jesus is God and Mary is His mother?

>>2446019
We're actually quite salty.

>>2446025
No, she's not.

You're making the inference that but for Mary, Jesus would not have existed.

Jesus walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, after creating the universe.

You're an Arian.

>>2445998
>Nothing to do with your pagan transubstantiation whatsoever.
Let me guess, you think it's pagan just because the philosophical concepts of accident and substance with that forth by a pagan, Aristotle.

I guess you reject the Pythagorean theorem as well for being pagan because Pythagoras was a pagan.

>>2446020
>>What is an advocate
A synonym of mediator
>>implying we believe she's a redeemer
Yes, you do.
>Remind me again why you remove James?
We do not. James is in perfect harmony with Paul. James 2 teaches justification by faith alone
>>2446029
>James is a Judaizer
He is absolutely not
>>2446030
>It is directly tied to Calvary
When did the atonement begin? Did the last supper give forgiveness of sins?

>>2446030
Because it's from the Antichrist, for one.

Because God pre-existed Mary, for another.

Because Jesus pre-existed Mary, for another.

Because the term "Mother of God" is not in the bible, for obvious reasons.

>>2446005
And what about the 17 other Catholic translations of the Bible that don't do that?

>>2446037
you have no idea what you are talking about, holy shit.

>>2446037
>You're making the inference that but for Mary, Jesus would not have existed
Without Mary Jesus would not have become human
>You're an Arian.
That's quite a statement, considering I'm the one insisting that He is God, Nestorius.

>>2446040

The papists are not calculating the area of a triangle; they are Eating God to Be God, which is what pagans have been doing for time immemorial.

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>>2446031
Maybe it's because I didn't grow up around Catholics, but it's hard for me to picture them with the kind of phony sentiment that baptists and evangelicals get up to.

>>2446040
When did the apostles cite Aristotle? It seems they were familiar with scripture, not your vain human philosophy

>>2446041
>>James is a Judaizer
>He is absolutely not

Literally a Judaizer, teaching in the temple among Jews with zero problems from the Jews.

Mikvah into Judaism, swear to follow the Law of Moses, worship at the temple.

Judaizer.

When Paul dressed down Peter for doing just this, it could as easily have been James. Peter was pretending to be kosher for James' people when they visited.

Pick up a bible and read it.

>>2446044
How many persons is Jesus? What is the connection between him and God the Son?

>>2446047
Nobody has posted them.

What about the official one that does?

>>2446048

That you don't know Jesus made preincarnate appearances in the OT is nothing but your ignorance in all things bible.

>>2446062
Is the Epistle of James scripture?

>>2446049
Without Mary, some other woman would have given birth to Jesus.

Jesus is God.

Mary is the mother of Jesus, the Christ, the Lord.

Not the Mother of God.

God has no mother.

Your heresy that Jesus did not exist prior to his birth/conception is absurd, and done away with centuries ago.

>>2446053
Maybe your judgment of Christians sucks.

>>2446010
No, usually there are events with actual purposes. Maybe there's a traveling relic of the Pope on display such as was done with Polycarp in the early church.

And besides, how do I know you didn't just have a bunch of your Protestant friends all kneel in front of the statue of Mary just so you can take a photo and parade it around as proof of "muh idolatry?" ;^)

>>2446015
See above. Try and find a further context. There usually is.

>>2446083
>as was done with Polycarp in the early church
They did not worship Polycarp's body

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>>2438021
Iconoclasts get out

>>2446063
Jesus is the Son of God, and the Son of Man.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father. When you start saying that Jesus' existence depended on Mary, you start doing stupid things like saying Mary was born sinless, never died, and ascended into heaven to be co-mediatrix with Jesus.

You are a Mary worshiper.

>>2446069
>I posted a retarded comment, but you're the one who doesnt understand!1

No one is saying Jesus didn't exist before Mary, but you don't seem to be very informed on Christology so it is understandable.

>>2446089
Where are icons in the bible again?

>>2446071
Yes.

Good rule of thumb is to let the bible explain the bible, and interpret the bible, and to take clear passages over muddied passages when you're looking for answers.

Ephesians 2
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

1. Salvation first.
2. Then walk in the works prepared for you, after you are saved.

>>2446091

If Mary is the mother of God, then no, Jesus did not exist before Mary begat him.

That you do not understand that Mary is not the mother of the Father, and not the mother of the Holy Spirit, and that there is only one God, is not my problem.

>>2446090
>Jesus is the Son of God, and the Son of Man.
Is He God the Son?
>When you start saying that Jesus' existence depended on Mary
Which is something I did not say
>you start doing stupid things like saying Mary was born sinless, never died, and ascended into heaven to be co-mediatrix with Jesus
Things which I deny
>You are a Mary worshiper
I am not, you on the other hand are Nestorian, and are tredding on thin ice.

"If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [as it is written, “The Word was made flesh”] let him be anathema."
-Cyril of Alexandria, the Twelve Anathemas

>>2446104
Amen.

>>2446132
Yes, Jesus is God the Son, as the Father is his Father, and he is the Father's only begotten Son.

When you say Mary is the mother of God, you make that false inference whether you admit to it or not.

It is Catholic catechism to say that Mary was born sinless, immaculate conception and all, did not die, and ascended into heaven.

If you don't believe Catholic doctrine, don't call yourself a Catholic.

I'm nowhere near a Nestorian dude. You're literally saying that Mary was the mother of the human part of Jesus.

That IS Nestorianism.

I'm thrilled to be called anathema by the Whore of Babylon, the enemy of God.

>>2446092
Arc of the Covenant for one, and the Nehushtan.

If you really want to get technical, the curtain in the temple that ripped was an icon

>>2446113
>mary is not the mother of the father and not the mother of the spirit

great, nobody is saying she is. you dont understand christology and I would go as far to say that you are actually a heretic

>>2446165
Nobody worshiped the ark. The ark carried holy items and was not to be touched.
Nobody worshiped the Nehushtan. They had to display the faith to look at it to be healed.
Nobody worshiped the curtain to the Holy of Holies.

God rent it top to bottom to indicate that no longer would 1 man, a Jew, have access to God himself, 1 day a year.

God was telling the world that he is open for business, with all who believe.

Icons are the baals, the ashteroths, the molechs, the figures men carve and fashion into their false gods.

>>2446171

You think one member of the trinity's existence depended on a Jewish teenager, and you worship her as the "Queen of Heaven" and "Mother of God".

Who's the heretic here?

>>2446165
I was specifically asking New Testament
>>2446154
>When you say Mary is the mother of God, you make that false inference whether you admit to it or not
I do not
>don't call yourself a Catholic
I don't
>I'm nowhere near a Nestorian dude
Who was it that denied Mary is the mother of God and instead said she was mother of Christ?
>You're literally saying that Mary was the mother of the human part of Jesus
Natures do not have mothers, persons have mothers.
>I'm thrilled to be called anathema by the Whore of Babylon
Cyril was not of Babylon, he was a great teacher of the Christian Church, like Athanasius before him.
>>2446113
Is Jesus fully God, or only 1/3 of God?

>>2446193
>Who was it that denied Mary is the mother of God and instead said she was mother of Christ?

The bible.

Luke 1:43 But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”

>>2446180
>Nobody worshiped the ark. The ark carried holy items and was not to be touched.
Just like Mary, ever-virgin.

>Nobody worshiped the Nehushtan. >They had to display the faith to look at it to be healed
Like with the Crucifix

>Nobody worshiped the curtain to the Holy of Holies.
Yet the curtain was there to instill the idea of the heavens as it was blue and covered and starts. It was an icon

>>2446193
>Is Jesus fully God, or only 1/3 of God?

Is the Father God, or only Jesus?
Is the Holy Spirit God, or only Jesus?

Did Mary give birth to the Father?
Did Mary give birth to the Holy Spirit?

How many Gods are there?

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>You actually eat the REAL flesh and drink the REAL blood of Jesus

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

>>2446191
>worship her
no, catholics shouldnt and dont worship her.

>you think one member of the trinity's existence depended on a jewish teenager
no you fool, nobody believes jesus existence depended on mary.

>jesus is god and man in one united nature
>mary gives birth to jesus who is both god and man in one united nature
boy, why is this so hard for you to understand?

>>2446205
>The bible.
Wrong. The correct answer was Nestorius. Those verses you posted have nothing to do with it.
>>2446211
There is but one God, in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and each of these is fully God in and of themselves, yet there are not three gods but one God.
The Father did not become incarnate and neither did the Spirit, but only the Son.

>>2446210
>Just like Mary, ever-virgin.
“We are told that Mary is paralleled with David (both ‘arise’ and ‘set out’), while other times Mary is paralleled with the Ark. Moreover, the statement of David in 2 Sam 6:9, ‘How can the ark of the LORD come to me?,’ changes the parallelism from Mary/David to David/Elizabeth . . . The fluctuation of the parallelism from Mary/Ark to Mary/David to David/Elizabeth to Elizabeth/Obed-Edom seems too capricious to be valid, and is for that reason alone rightly rejected by most scholars” (Eric Svendsen, Who is my Mother? The Role of and Status of the Mother of Jesus in the New Testament and Roman Catholicism, [Calvary Press, 2001], p. 168).
Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
and did not know her

>till

she had brought forth her firstborn Son.

Mark 6:3 Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?” So they were offended at Him.

>>2446212
to be fair you eat and drink bread and wine but digest the holy flesh and flood :^)