Oda Nobunaga was a great general, and the first that finally

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shat all over bushido and ruined classical japan with volley fire and meritocracy and other stuff that was considered disonorabrr so of course people are going to be pissed.

keep in mind the people writing about him are mostly butthurt people negatively effected by his crap. more nobility were negatively effected by oda than positively, and those were the people writing stuff down.

I could go into more detail but this thread has happoened enougha timwism I just don't cccarrreee anms

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>>2421077
>Yet, most of the times in japanese media, he's depicted as ruthless asshole.

Pic related is Oda Nobunaga.

>>2421077
fuck off weeb

>>2421077
He

>didn't properly reward his vessels in the traditional manner

>destroyed religious institutions that apposed him

>denounced religion in general

>carried out a type of total war that the Japanese found distasteful

>took out people who were nominally his social superiors

Hyouge-mono is a bretty gud series involving Oda Nobunaga. As far as I can tell, Japanese culture at the time mirrored European admiration of nobility etiquette. The virtues. Oda was conquering too fast, not very gentlemanly.

>>2421283
Thats fucked up if you put it that way...

>>2421128
Anime was a mistake

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>>2421077
> Yet, most of the times in japanese media, he's depicted as ruthless asshole
Ummm... The only Japanese media I've seen depict him that way, also depicted Joan of Arc as a man, and xir wingman, Gilles De Rais, as a huge WWE wrestler obsessed with protecting xim. (Also from the same studio that depicted the Pope as a woman in another production.)

Meanwhile, in a show by another Jap studio, we have Gigamesh depicted as an efeminite boifuck, Alexander the Great as a huge bearded barbarian, and King Author, as a woman.

Just... Just ignore Japanese media, it has no reverence for anything, be it their own historical figures or anyone else's. This is the same place that once had a show in which Jesus and Buddha were roommates in a midtown Tokyo apartment.

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During the siege of Mount Hiei in 1571 (which wasn't a siege so much as a curbstomp and utter massacre), Nobunaga set fire to Enryaku-ji, the compounds of the Tendai warrior monks, and the surrounding base of the mountain and slaughtered everybody including men, women, and children from the compounds and nearby villages. Roughly 4,000 people died under his direct orders.

It doesn't exactly endear yourself to posterity.

「…僧坊、経巻一宇も残さず、一時に雲霞のごとく焼き払い、灰燼の地と為社哀れなれ、山下の男女老若、右往、左往に廃忘を致し…僧俗、児童、智者、上人一々に首をきり、信長公の御目に懸け...」
"Not one scroll, building, or rectory was left unscathed. At once young and old, men and women from around the mountain, were burnt asunder and left as ash on the earth. [Nobunaga] brought chaos to every corner... Monks, children, wise men, and saints, one by one were beheaded under Lord Nobunaga's assent..."

This is from the Shinchoukouki by Nobunaga's own personal historian.

>>2421077
Because he WAS a ruthless asshole? Lots of great unifiers were (Genghis Khan, Qin Shi Huang, Julius Caesar, etc).

>>2421410
Don't talk shit about Saint Young Men, that was wonderful

>>2421283
he also famously massacre peasants, in quantity and method that considered brutal even according to feudal Japan standard

>>2421936
True, but wonderfully irreverent.

Granted, the series I mentioned kinda tries to redeem Nobunaga. He realizes what a dick he was when he hears his history retold by an even bigger dick from about a century afterwards. Also this running theme where he regrets thinking it was his own son who betrayed him in the end, and starts to try to play father figure to said bigger dick.

>>2421093
>ruined classical japan with volley fire and meritocracy and other stuff that was considered disonorabrr
Pls stop parroting this myth. Nobody in feudal Japan thought guns were dishonorable or "unfair". The fact that it was even a martial art in its own right is a testament to how much the Japanese loved muskets and the fine art of shooting them. Here's a list of musketry schools that flourished during that period:

>稲富流
>外記流(井上流)
>荻野流
>種子島流
>田付流
>関流
>武衛流
>森重流(合武三島流)
>陽流
>高島流

Some of them like 森重流 are still being taught to this day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M1sw6YggAg

>>2421982
I never said nips disliked guns. why is it so important for you to put words into the mouths of others to make them out as wrong and yourself as right when in the end it's an utter lie? reflect on yourself, you're a fucking tool to your own insane desires.

moving on from how fucking retarded you are, volley fire singlehandedly ended champion warfare in japan. you have no idea what you're talking about if you think this wasn't related to their perception of honor and bushido culture.

>look at how smart I am see all these moon runes
I'm not impressed by this meaningless list of red herrings. champion warfare was a symbol of bushido culture that was ended partially by volley fire tactics implemented by oda nobunaga. this is a historical fact.

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>>2421077
He's depicted as a ruthless asshole mainly because, big surprise, he was a ruthless asshole.

Nobunaga is well known for having a demeaning personality, for throwing away social customs and tradition, and waging total war against his enemies. When he was at war with the Ikko Ikki monks, they locked themselves into their monastaries, women and children included, so that Nobunaga would break his armies with a siege.

Nobunaga's answer was to burn it all down with everybody still inside. He also had to deal with at least 4 personal betrayals and attempts on his life from former allies. That's pretty much how his reign started.

That being said, he was a progressive lord who wanted Japan into the modern era, whether they liked it or not. He was a patron of the arts, opened up trade with foreign powers, quickly absorbed and adapted everything that he could get from Europe, reformed the economy to establish castle towns, industry, taxes, and remove monopolies. He was a vocal atheist but protected Christians in his lands and advanced the japanese tea ceremony to promote civil discussion of politics and philosophy, also introducing a meritocracy to his clan and rewarding his servants both high and low.

Hideyoshi Toyotomi, the eventual unifier of Japan, started out as a piss poor sandal bearer for Nobunaga but worked his way up and became one of his best generals.

All in all, he was a fascinating individual. The Japanese just morphed his persona into their version of Cao Cao because the ROTK is one of Asia's greatest stories.

Also >>2421982

Samurai didn't consider guns dishonorable. Most armies at the time had a contingent of guns. Nobunaga revolutionized the way they were used in Japan with volley fire. But it wasn't looked down upon. Literally everybody used more guns after that culminating in the battle of Sekigahara which fielded thousands of guns on both side and even some cannons.

>>2421982
https://i.4cdn.org/wsg/1488087961016.webm

Yes.

He set a hill on fire and let everyone in the temple on top of it burn to death rather than capture the temple by siege.

>>2421915
Don't forget Adolf and Napoleon for great "unifiers"

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>>2422293
>Napoleon
>ruthless asshole

>>2421915
Yes but Romans didn't really speak about how much Caesar was an asshole. These people are, most of the time, romanticized. It didn't happen with Nobunaga, obviously, since his clan didn't win.

>>2422036
>When he was at war with the Ikko Ikki monks, they locked themselves into their monastaries, women and children included, so that Nobunaga would break his armies with a siege.
>Nobunaga's answer was to burn it all down with everybody still inside.
S A V A G E

>>2422293
He did unify all of Europe under Revolutionary ideals, it just took a while and happened after his death,

>>2421077
>Yet, most of the times in japanese media, he's depicted as ruthless asshole.
because he WAS a ruthless asshole
>I really can't understand why, was he more violent than other daimyo?
he massacred women and children lol fuck yes he was more violent

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>>2422312
lol he massacred a fuckton of people and had people assasinated

i love the guy but he was a ruthless asshole

>>2421838
To be fair, that was because there was a failed assassination attempt on his life so he was basically sending a message.

>Try to kill me and I'll come to where you live and fucking kill everyone I see

He didn't unify Japan. Hideyoshi did that.

>>2421077

Well, he didn't exactly conquer Japan through diplomacy.

>>2421283
How was that worsethan others?

>>2421975
>about a century afterwards
It was less than 20 years later.

>>2421077
He was very much an "ends justify the means" guy and could be very brutal in regards to those who opposed him (see what he did to the Ikko-ikki). He was ruthless which then gets distorted into "he was a villain". Same as other people leaders like Cao Cao, Napoleon or Caesar.

>>2423370
Muh bad, memory be fuzzy in muh old age, and I don't think I'd heard of the other dick.

>>2423257
Nobunaga controlled all of Japan that mattered other then the Mori which Nobunaga had Hideyoshi conquering at the time of his death. Everything he didn't own was the boonies.

>>2422036
Cao Cao was basically a nicer version of Nobunaga. On top of his military feats, he had astounding civil achievements and his officers fucking loved him because if you were competent, he treated you as his own son.

>>2423777
The same could be said of Nobunaga. As said above, he made a great deal of change on the civil front as well.

When it came to his officers though he was hit or miss. Some loved him, some hated him. He's noted as having a demeaning personality and talking down to everybody. And while he was rewarding to those who served him well, guys like Hideyoshi who saw themselves advance in life or Ieyasu Tokugawa who had immense respect for Nobunaga despite starting off as rivals (itself funny in that they spent time together as children when Ieyasu was a political hostage), but he also humiliated those who failed him.

>>2423840
Well, enough hated him that he got betrayed more times than the average villain over a twenty season run of Days of Our Lives.

>>2421283
Is he dare I say /their guy/?

>>2421077
maybe he was Korean! We all know the nips hate them to the point of blaming earth quakes on them and burning them alive.

>>2423918
Yea the betrayals are the one sticking point. The major ones were more political in nature though.

>Nobuyuki Oda - Nobunaga was young at the time and had attitude problems. Everybody thought he was an idiot, hence the nickname Nobunaga the Fool, and so his vassals decided that his younger brother would make a better lord.

>Nagamasa Azai - The Azai were put in an impossible situation here. Either defend Nobunaga and break the pact they had with the Asakura, one that had been established since Nagamasa's grandfather, or betray the Oda and turn his back on his new brother in law.

>Hisahide Matsunaga - Matsunaga has a reputation of being duplicitous. He was first opposed to Nobunaga but lost and became a loose retainer. Then he backed the Miyoshi opposition to Nobunaga but realized they were going to lose and rejoined Nobunaga. Then betrayed him again a few years later where he was finally defeated and committed suicide. He also notably destroyed a famous tea pot he owned, knowing that Nobunaga loved tea bowls and wanted it.

>Mitsuhide Akechi - This one is the most also the least actually known about because nobody that was actually involved survived. Mitsuhide's motivations are unknown and range anywhere from jealousy, to seeking recompense for his honor after Nobunaga publicly humiliated him, to betraying Nobunaga because he'd broken a promise to not wage war against the Chosokabe who Mitsuhide was related to. Sadly, there just isn't enough surviving information on it to really give a cause.

>>2423840
What I meant by nicer is that Cao Cao, compared to Nobunaga, wasn't anymore brutal than his contemporaries, did not make waves by breaking social norms, and was not known to humiliate others without good reason. Otherwise, they're extremely similar.

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>>2421128
This is also Nobunaga.