ITT: Cast judgement

Wasn't it Willy's idea to follow the Schleiffen plan even at the cost of bringing Britain into the war? Because that's what really put the nail in the whole thing, imo.

>>2418463
From the assassination of Franz to the invasion of Belgium Bethmann-Heollweg, Moltke, and Falkenhayn basically lobbied Wilhelm 24/7 for total war.

Willy wasnt' very bright and had easily wounded pride so he caved. Still no excuse though.

>Brits dindu nuffin, dey anchor of stability in de world an dey never meddle in affairs not deir own

>>2418475

Read the July Crisis, Edward Grey did his best to avert conflict.

I think the German ambassador to Britain should also be added to the 'tried to stop it' list.

>>2418475
The Brits did try very hard to avoid the war and were forced into it due to the German attack on Belgium.

The Brits only allied with the French and Russians in the first place because Wilhelm was a retard who insisted on building a rival navy against the advice of Bismarck, who insisted that Germany instead focus on continental affairs

>>2418481
this guy again

also some french diplomats/poincare should be put in the responsible bit because they were too committed to the alliance w/ russia to the point where it was stupid

>>2418481
>>2418486
The Brits had no obligation whatsoever to enter that war. That they did made the conflict a world war.

>>2418458
What about George V?

>>2418488

If you read the transcript of the debate about whether to enter the war or not in parliament you'll see there were plenty of legitimate reasons to enter the war.

For one, there's the legal basis in the invasion of Belgium, a nation which was guaranteed by several powers. Secondly, France had left the channel coast undefended by its navy because of agreements with Britain which meant it would have been easy for the German navy to support an invasion unopposed from the sea. It would have been seen as a betrayal by France, and they would have been justified in seeing it that way.

There were other reasons too, British diplomacy had been committed to maintaining a status quo not just in central/western/eastern europe but also in the balkans and that was obviously going to change.

Well Edward Grey was a staunch opponent of German power..

>>2418494

He was committed to peace in Europe, more than nearly every other official in any foreign ministry in Europe. There were people in Germany who felt the same, too.

>>2418493
The Brits weren't obligated to enter that war. They were looking for an excuse to get rid of a rival country. The shenanigans on the continent was none of their business.

>>2418458
Pretty accurate.

Tho no one ever talks about Colonel Dimitrijevic, and on this board i've seen one person other than me mention him.

I think he's a mere puppet, but of whom? I don't know exactly, but probably someone within the Russian imperial government. He's done nothing but cause trouble in Serbia from 1903 to 1917 when he was executed. 1917 is a clear sign, he lost either his backers or the chain broke when the Russian provisional government took power.

>>2418503
>The Brits weren't obligated to enter that war.

I've already given examples of legal, moral and strategical obligations that justified Britain's entry into the war.

>They were looking for an excuse to get rid of a rival country

Then why was Edward Grey communicating with the German ambassador to Britain right up until the outbreak of the war, attempting to find peace? Why did he approve William Tyrell's abortive meeting with German officials planned later that year, to improve relations? Why was there dissent in parliament at the outbreak of war? Why was there such dissent in cabinet in the 1911 Moroccan Crisis over policies that were misconstrued to be Germanophobic?

>The shenanigans on the continent was none of their business.

Ah yes you're right, Britain has never had any kind of interest in the continent, especially not in the 20th century.

>>2418514
>blabla I know my propaganda
>Britain always meddles in continental affairs
Which is it now, Great Benevolitain or warmonger?
Grey has been foreign Minister since 1905. His complete work was aimed at isolating Germany as opposed to his predecessors policy. Please don't use that cunt as an example for Britain's insignificance in regards to letting the world burn.

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>>2418529
>>blabla I know my propaganda
>mfw any facts that run counter to your worldview are propaganda

go back to tumblr

>>2418540
Riddle me this: What would have happened if Britain stayed out of it?

>>2418542

counterfactual history is retarded but sure i'll bite

1) france/russia capitulate quickly, Germany becomes hegemon on mainland europe, thus achieving what britain has worked to prevent since arguably the seven years war

2) france/russia don't capitulate quickly, in which case britain would intervene sooner or later in the same way every other regional power did by 1918

i believe the first case to be more likely, but either case is not ideal for britain

by the way the facts i gave you weren't propaganda at all, they're things that have been studied in very recent contributions to the subject. i'm not completely absolving individuals in britain either, edward grey definitely handled crises prior to 1914 in a way that we can see, with hindsight, was not ideal

>>2418549
Thank you. Main point being it wouldn't have become a World War. I am by no means arguing that Germany wasn't at fault at all, I am just annyoed that a century later the same cheap propaganda is still used as "historical fact", and mainly by anglos. Like the world was black and white.

>>2418555
nothing i've used to support my argument comes under 'cheap propaganda' and it's all historical fact

i personally believe german officials were mostly at fault because their government was a fucking mess and it's no wonder their foreign policy got all sorts of retarded

>>2418463
No actually Willy wanted to call off the invasion of Belgium to focus on Russia, but was told it was too late. Also after the orders were sent out the guy who could have stopped it had left his post to take a nap I think it was because he knew the deployment would go off without a hitch, and well he was right.

>>2418542
You know the Germans tried very hard to court the British into helping them against the French right? Prior to the outbreak of war mind you, the German foreign policy went out of its way to alienate themselves to everyone around them as well, so they started going on about being encircled by enemies. They basically destroyed all of Bismarks work making Germany not enemy number one in Europe.
Germanys failings in the first great war rest squarely upon her shoulders for the choices the German state made.
Let's also not forget the Germans tried to stretch the conflict to the Americas with the Zimmerman telegram.
And England well an island is still part of Europe, and has a vested interest in continental politics.

>>2418580
And back to square one. Brits dindu nuffin.

>>2418458
enver literally did nothing wrong

>>2418587
The brits also escalated the war by stealing ships the Ottomans had purchased from them, forcing them to either take that loss or join the central powers. Granted the British thought the ottomans would be in league with the central powers which is why they stole the ships. But had that not happened, we may have seen a much shorter war as the ottomans stay out of it, and allow the focus to be on Italy, Germany, and Austria, which may get Italy to swap sides sooner. But it is all theoretical. There is no way to know for sure if leaving Belgium alone, and not stealing the Ottoman empires ships would have made any difference in how the war played out of who joined it.

>>2418616
>stealing

Not quite that considering the British government offered to pay for them.

>>2418487
>thinks people on that list are just some random diplomats without personalities, their own agendas & convictions, simply carrying out the government's orders
1914 was the death of traditional diplomacy where ambassadors had a lot of leeway on how to interpret orders from above. Modern diplomacy where ambassadors are just glorified postmen only fully came about after ww2.

>>2418529
Not an argument

>>2418631
Yes but it is a slap in the face of your national pride to buy something then be told nevermind we are keeping it, here is your money back.
If you were to do that as a person it could lead to litigation. Doing it to a country is like telling them they are irrelevant and can't do anything about your actions, this also is what most likely lead to them keeping the crews of the German ships that were given to them that later went off and shot up the black Sea fleet of Russia drawing the Ottomans into the war.

>>2418641
>Let us ignore the overall direction of that politician in favour of a few sentences he uttered

>>2418458
where the jew bankers at?

>>2418660
Yeah if it happened in peace time.

Only the most stupid, frothing nationalist would not consider the fact that the UK has just gone to war. Expecting a country to export weapons normally while at war is retarded.

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>>2418616
>we may have seen a much shorter war as the ottomans stay out of it

>>2418716
You don't feel the Ottoman front took supplies that could have been spent to shorten the war in Europe?

>>2418529
>He thinks the Germanic powers were not almost entirely responsible

>>2418486
>they were obliged to follow an 80-year-old treaty

>>2418959

read >>2418493

more than one reason to enter the war and the treaty was still valid, britain signed the treaty because belgium was an area of strategic concern and it still was in 1914

>>2418940
Correctly observed. The main fault lies with Great Britain.

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>>2418965
>wahey! i know germanics went to the british isles!

>>2418555
How would it not have become a world war? Just the simple absence of britain from the conflict doesnt make the war any more ideal or less consequential for the entire world. Germany forced their hand

>>2418972
It would have stayed regional like the other conflicts on the continent before.

>>2418977

>muh alt-history
>muh argue a specific thing would happen to suit my argument

idiot

>>2418959
Considering Germany, signed that treaty, yeah I suppose we should ignore Germany violating it. It shows an alarming lack of diplomatic foresight for Germany to think it could violate a treaty it signed with no diplomatic consequences, especially a treaty that was still actively enforced which is why Belgium was all alone for the start of the conflict.

>>2418984
>'The cabinet resolved that ‘the matter, if it arises, will be rather one of policy than of legal obligation’ (Asquith, writing to the King, July 1914, quoted in Spender ‘Life of Asquith’, Volume II page 81).

>>2418458
In addition to the Opportunistic tier: Vladimir Lenin and the Bolsheviks

Also
>Did stop it tier: Woodrow Wilson, John Pershing

>>2419079
>1. We have no obligation of any kind either to France or Russia to give them military or naval help.

>2. The despatch of the expeditionary force to help France at this moment is out of the question and would serve no object.

>3. We mustn’t forget the ties created by our longstanding and intimate friendship with France.

>4. It is against British interest that France should be wiped out as a great power.

>5. We cannot allow Germany to use the Channel as a hostile base.

>6. We have obligations to Belgium to prevent her being utilised and absorbed by Germany.

>>2418984
>"I come first, now, to the question of British obligations. I have assured the House—and the Prime Minister has assured the House more than once—that if any crisis such as this arose, we should come before the House of Commons and be able to say to the House that it was free to decide what the British attitude should be, that we would have no secret engagement which we should spring upon the House, and tell the House that, because we had entered into that engagement, there was an obligation of honour upon the country. I will deal with that point to clear the ground first.

>There has been in Europe two diplomatic groups, the Triple Alliance and what came to be called the "Triple Entente," for some years past. The Triple Entente was not an Alliance—it was a Diplomatic group. [...]
>In this present crisis, up till yesterday, we have also given no promise of anything more than diplomatic support—up till yesterday no promise of more than diplomatic support.

Secretary of State Sir Edward Grey before the House of Commons on August 3rd 1914
HC Deb 03 August 1914 vol 65 cc1809-32

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It's almost as if it was in the UK's interest to intervene in a major European conflict to make sure Germany (or really anyone else) became a dominant power and the German invasion of neutral Belgium was a convenient justification to do so.

>>2419098
They didn't even vote on that. Point 4 is the only valid one. It was Great Power politics and not an obligation as usually stated in anglo propaganda.

>>2418616
they actually had that ossibility in the contracts the ottomans signed.

they also promised to return the ships at the end of hostilities with an upgrades kept or removed at the ottomans discretion and to repair any battle damage sustained, and repalce the ship if lost in action.

essentially the ottomans were going to get their ship or better just a few years later.

instead they threw a hissy fit and lost their empire

>>2419116
Even if that were true, Germany would still be the responsible one, for trying to become the dominant power

>>2418458
Can't disagree with that picture... at all.

Willy might belong to a tier between "It's their fault" and "Responsible" though.

>>2419083
woodrow should be put in opportunistic tee bee aych

>>2418458
Moltke should be "it's their fault" tier, he had arguably more of a role than even Hotzendorf.

No man on Earth in 1914 had more responsibility for the Great War than Helmuth von Moltke.

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>2017
>thinking Enver did anything wrong

when will this meme die.

>>2418458
How does Franz Joseph get into that tier? He signed the declaration of war that started it all.

>>2421830
People usually go easy on depressed old men who have nothing left to live for.

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>>2418588
Reminder

>>2418486
> German attack on Belgium
> Propaganda by the Jews to involve a world power

Pick one

>>2418458
>dragutin dimitrijevic
>not in his full name
DELET THIS