Having one of those times where I unfortunately get into the

>is to know fully understand
k m s
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>>2370621
There is absolutely no way that the development of language is on the same level of importance as "territory." Most animals have a concept territory.

>Both the gazelle and the man can fear predation, but only one feels the existential despair of their situation
You don't know this and I am willing to bet there is evidence against this

>>2370648
Firstly, I was not saying that language and territory are valued the same. I said they were founded the same. Namely by the ability to attach some permanence to a transient, temporal subject.

Secondly, the faculties of our frontal lobe are objectively more developed and fit for more rich interpretation of our experience. It is no great leap to imagine or prove our experience to be much deeper.

>>2370666
But you can't prove how much deeper and in what way.

Also your wording very much implies that territory and language are equally important. If you don't think they are you need to change your thesis.

>>2370704
Id likely prove it through our abundant manifestations of relaying our experience to others which are much more complex than animals. Human language itself is self-evidently deeper than all other communicating species which have yet to form such complexities.

Rephrase maybe?:
"This ability lies at the root of our most innate concepts such as language or territory"

>>2370728
We have evidence to suggest that we are more self aware than animals but thats it. It would be impossible to deduce exactly how different our subjective experinces are from that of animals. Statements like "we feel more despair than gazelles" aren't provable because "despair" isn't really quantifiable.

>The greatest breakthrough within our evolutionary lineage was such: the ability to attach permanent meaning to temporal subjects.
This is your thesis, no? It suggests that all things which fall under this category (i.e. territory and language) are of about equal importance.

Also I hate to break it to you, but your conclusion is basically "heightened awareness is better for survival" which isn't really a new or even surprising discovery.

>>2370777
We can infer that despair is benefited to us by greater self awareness. Looking at advanced emotions which define the human experience as being correlative to self-awareness is a worthy thing to prove.

There's a finer discernment but it can be reduced to that I suppose. Making coherent philosophical points for meaning, emotion, and identity being a product of biological evolution is a worthy and intriguing endeavor. idk, maybe its just more psychoanalytic than anything else, more prose-y than substantive

>>2370810
Subjective experiences are not fully describable. That's why we call them subjective experiences.

I think you are trying way too hard to sound like an intellectual and need to tone it down. I don't mean for you to take this offensively, but any other way I could word this would sound even more offensive.

>>2370829
That is the thing, understanding the physiology (like what part of the brain is responsible for this meaning-permanence relation) reduces the barriers of subjectivity. Its a useless thing to just say "welp its subjective, after all" and call quits on all inquiry that could indicate otherwise.

I try to not sound like that, but I don't think I've said anything out of proportion to the complexity of the subject.

>evolution
No outdated theories please

>>2370849
That's the thing though. I think you are making this more complex than it needs to be.

All I am saying when it comes to subjective experince is that the subjective experience of other beings is not fully realizable. You can't fully explain what distinguishes human consciousness from lesser animals inasmuch as you cannot fully explain what distinguishes my consciousness from yours. It is fair to claim that animals are less self-aware than us, but attempting to explain exactly how is a futile endeavor. I'm not denying scientific research I just think you are giving too much credit to the scope of our intellectual understanding.

>>2370922
I don't think its entirely futile to explain what differentiates our consciousness from other species, but I do get that this stuff is best complemented with actual psychological/physiological research. Helps not sound like a cringefest which I might be.

I appreciate the back and forth though man!

>>2370777
Is it really mere "heightened awareness" that gives us, as animals, the ability to conceive such topics like law, or math, or society? We are miles about the most 'self aware' primates who sit in our zoos.

>>2370956
heightened awareness of ourselves and thus our understanding of our surroundings. leads to such things you mentioned.

>>2370943
I think you might just be trying too hard to create a philosophical arguemnt for something which requires scientific research. I am just telling you to be weary of how much science can actually prove.

>>2370956
I think what mostly seperates us is not only our incredible ability to learn, but our ability to retain this information and pass it down (to teach). However, you would probably be incredibly surprised by how much we can teach animals and how much they can retain. And when humans are not taught, they typically display the characteristics of wild animals. Think of a boy being raised in the wild never having contact with civilization, how would he behave?

>>2370999
There's research out there that exists though as its been the main influence on this point. That being said, I obviously didn't cite anything so its not like I've brought any of that to the table. All in all I think it at least makes the argument that what is traditionally known as subjective isn't sacred and impenetrable.

And furthermore in your wilderness example, yes the wild boy will have stunted growth but it is justly "stunted;" feral isolation is not the common state for our species. Even still that human will have the capacity for deeper thought and more complex language (though in need of teaching) than any "well adjusted" animal.