Was Native Indians Genocide the worst crime in the history of mankind?

>>2362535
Nah, most had already died thanks to diseases like smallpox. You could of course argue that this, too, was genocide, but I would be careful to apply that term where medicinal knowledge had no concept of germs

They're lucky they got what we allowed them to have.

>Nazi, Germany

>>2362535
Boo fucking hoo. Maybe they should have done something more with their land other than hunting, fucking, and living in stick huts. Maybe then they would've had a fighting chance against a superior people.

>>2362535
>the US government
So they murdered a population far larger than their own in a timespawn of about a 100 years? And natives dindu nuffin?

>>2362650
>Maybe they should have done something more with their land other than hunting, fucking, and living in stick huts
does this make genocide less a crime?

>>2362731
Oh I'm fucking sorry we don't have time machines and nobody actually alive today in fact contributed to this, as you say, crime.

If you want to imply guilt by some tenuous association, like "sins of the father", kindly fuck off.

>>2362731
Who fucking cares? We came, we saw, we conquered. I'm sick of this white guilt genocide shit.

>>2362775
Vae victis faggot, your time is over

>>2362535
There are more Native Americans today than there were a few hundred years ago. So no. Wasn't even a genocide in most cases (policy wasn't unified across the decades), more like a sporadic series of ethnic cleansings.

Anyway, OP image is bullshit. In 1800 (soon after the US gained independence) there were only 600,000 Natives on all the soil of the United States and what would later become the United States (Thornton, Russel (1990). "American Indian holocaust and survival: a population history since 1492." University of Oklahoma Press. p. 43). The US government could have killed literally 100% of them and still been an order of magnitude or two below the number of Jews, Poles, Russians, etc. killed by the Germans. As it stands, with a death toll in the tens to low hundreds of thousands over the course of a century, this rates somewhere below obscure crimes no one's heard about in terms of numbers of dead, like the Circassian genocide or British conduct in East Africa in WW1.

File: 1484756155748.png (6KB, 369x311px) Image search: [Google]

6KB, 369x311px

>>2362535
>100 million
>in a primarily hunter-gatherer society with starvation-level agriculture

>>2362763
>>2362775
>I want to take pride in the "glory of my fathers"
>I don't want to be ashamed for the "sins of my fathers"
lmao

anyway I must say >>2362775 this is the reality indeed, the week perishes, that's why white nations in one or two generations are going to disappear
thank God I'm italian

File: image.jpg (58KB, 297x365px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 297x365px

>>2362535
DELETE THIS!

>>2362535
Yes and by far. Nothing is even comparable, nearly an entire race from an entire continent was exterminated in a systematic genocide.

>>2362535
Is this the Wouded Knee guy? I've see him in many documentaries. He's so butthurt. India Al Sharpton.

>>2362535
Who cares? they were inferior and they deserved to die

>>2362911
It's Russell Means you ignorant inbred redneck. And he's a well respected actor, activist and writer.

>>2362919
>tfw you will have to answer to God for this

>>2362763
You didn't answer the question.

File: illinois-cahokia-half-picture-of-cahokia.jpg (1MB, 3456x2304px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 3456x2304px

the natives weren't that bad to be honest

>Why is this not in the history books?

I see this phrases bandied about even when the subject is common knowledge. I'm dying to know what these people mean when they say "the history books"

>why isn't in history books
This should be your first clue that the claim is bullshit.

>>2362584

'we'


I don't remember you or me being out there shootin injuns. Also you'd get steamrolled along with anyone else that stood in the way of the powerful getting what they want. Don't forget your fucking place you proletariat, you're not part of some in-group.

>>2362650

>They value things differently than we do therefore genocide and taking their resources is the only answer

Seems like watertight logic to me

>>2362775

>white guilt

Shove your strawman up your ass. This has nothing to do with any kind of 'white guilt'. I'm just ashamed to know just how hypocritical humans become whenever they think they're the 'good guys', they almost always inadvertently become the very thing they'd call evil.

>>2362775
whites breed much less faster than other races though.

File: White Family.jpg (79KB, 530x382px) Image search: [Google]

79KB, 530x382px

>>2363413

Are you retarded?

>>2363420
>A photo from 100 years ago somehow proves your point
He's right though.
European and white American birthrates are all below replacement rates.

>>2362919
why are wheezing, tubby white guys with patchy beards so convinced of their genetic superiority?

>>2363444

I guess because of the old idea that 'Might makes Right' and not Virtue. It's the mentality of thieves since time immemorial

There does not exist a timeline where the Native Americans are not absolutely exterminated, if not just by sheer force of disease.

In our timeline, the Americans just so happened to be the ones that settled. At the end of the day, colonization was an inevitability, and thus was the absolute annihilation of the Native Americans regardless of who was there to commit the act.

While the Native Americans did hold different values and evolved, as a culture and society, isolated from the rest of the world, this does NOT make them exempt from the responsibility of being able to defend yourself.

No civilization in the history of mankind has ever existed, autonomously and with sovereignty, without having to defend themselves from violent invaders who want what they have.

Just because they were isolated does not mean they had complete claim to the continent and the treasures it housed. Maybe these resources were of no value to them, of course, but this is by no means an excuse.

The fact of the matter is that they were not advanced enough, in nearly any field, to stave off the rest of the planet. They played the game, as we all do upon birth, and they fucking lost. Does this make it any less tragic? Of course not; but that is the fact of the matter.

Also,
>Why is this not in the history books?

t. somebody who doesn't read history books visiting a history board

>>2362535
It was a terrible thing to happen but this is impossible to be described as "worst" objectively.
I would argue that the anthropocene extinctions are the worst thing to happen from humanity, but it's more cosmic irony than crime
Bait thread go die
Sage

>>2363384
>this lame attempts of klassenkampf
Fuck off Schlomo

>>2363474

Sorry but you're way off base.

>>2362535
by this logic the black death that wiped out so much of European life is a Mongolian genocide. since they brought the disease to Europe.

>>2362563
>>2362584
>>2362650
>>2362819
>>2363366
>>2363381
>>2363469
>>2363489

OP annihilated

>>2363489

Europeans are still going strong last time I checked.

>>2362763
Noone made that insinuation. You're the one trying to justify a genocide and acting defensively as if you're being burdened with some sort of guilt.

>>2362535
It's is impossible for "Native Indians genocide" to happen
1: because "Native Indians" isn't a group of people, it's an extremely broad category of description, take your naive reductionism back to the Neolithic era where it's belongs
2: genocide is an intentional act of agents, what you are describing is an emergent extinction event

>>2363439
>>2363413
>whites
I think you mean "people who culturally identify with the developed country they live in" which happen to be white because Europe is mostly developed.

>>2362584
>we
you were there?

old mathafaka

>>2362889
Winning isn't a sin.

>>2363499
that's what the U.S. did. they conquered the West and still somehow thought themselves the victims

>"Mexico attacked our solders who were on their lands"
>"the injuns killed a cow, we're being attacked"

>>2363493
because there where no forces or colonising aspects that could take entire Europe (maybe the Arabs but they also suffered heavely from disease and the Mongols). that is why why we could develop a resistence for the disease and the amount of deaths went down.

>>2363469
>this does NOT make them exempt from the responsibility of being able to defend yourself.
what about all the shit done to them after they were conquered? their was no reason for numerous attacks on natives after they'd been defeated. yet it still happened

>>2363495

oh and also quarantaines and sanitaïre developments helped a lot. something Indians didn't have

>>2362889
>thank God I'm italian
in the eyes of non-whites. you are white. bye bye Giuseppe

HOW¨
IS
THIS
A
THREAD
WITH
ALMOST
FIFTY
POSTS

HOLY FUCK THIS BOARD IS SO FUCKING CANCER
WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU EVEN DISCUSSING HERE
ITS FUCKING OBVIOUS BAIT
AMERICANS
PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
LEAAAAAAAAAAAAVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
GET THE FUCK OUT OF THIS BOARD PLEASE

>>2363508
I've been copypasta'D
>F L A T T E R E D
But many Native American cultures where intentionally exterminated to various degrees.
Genocide is also an emergent extinction event but what it has that extinction doesn't is agency.
Nonetheless I could argue that even agency is a delusion arising from reductive thought, but it's best to consider these things closed systems for the sake of not falling into holism at a universal scale to talk about how humans come to make decisions, and how their decision making mechanisms are acquired. Reductionism is a god thing, it's the only way to make heads or tails of the world we live in. Naively assuming it's reality is where it becomes toxic. I'm rambling
Sage

>>2363558
>hurr this thread succs
>doesn't Sage
Retard
Sage goes in all fields
Sage

>>2363553

Actually most tribes did have an understanding of basic sanitation, but when you're dealing with infectious disease you're pretty fucked regardless if you have 0 immunity

>>2363549
There was reason, and that reason was racism. The entire point of the post was that discussing the morality of the situation is futile, because their initial conquest by foreign powers, no matter who did it or why, was inevitable due to the extremely basic technological and cultural nature of their societies. What happened to them post-conquest is as irrelevant as who did it and why when examining the history of Native American tribes.

inb4 some literalist says that those things are completely relevant

We're not performing archaeology or writing new history here, we are critically analyzing the already written history - please leave semantics out of it

I should note that English is not my first language. though I am more or less pretty familiar with it

File: 730_1196089938.jpg (73KB, 730x487px) Image search: [Google]

73KB, 730x487px

>>2362535
>100 million
son of a bitch
I'm native(purepecha indian) and ive always hated the "100 million" bullshit.
there were maybe 1-2 maybe 3 million natives in the U.S. and Canada

in Mexico there were some 10-20 million and in S.America there were 40-80 million

there may have been 100 million in ALL of the Americas, but I know dumbfucks think there were actually 100 million in the U.S. thats why they always use pictures of plains indians.

but if you want real examples of "Genocide" look to Mexico and South America. real acts of Genocide were commited not only by colonizing powers, but by their own countrymen as well

>>2363585
>there may have been 100 million in ALL of the Americas

All at once sure, but we're talking several generations.

>>2363582
>What happened to them post-conquest is as irrelevant as who did it and why when examining the history of Native American tribes.
>inb4 some literalist says that those things are completely relevant
but they are. what was the point of shrinking reservations, after treaties were signed and agreed upon? what was the point wounded knee? Battle of the Big Hole? the Council House Massacre? or the Fort Robinson massacre?

what was the point of killing defeated peoples? that was Genocide.

>>2363561
>I've been copypasta'D
"Emergent extinction event" is such a deliciously callous euphemism for genocide (even better than "demographic shift"), I just couldn't resist.

File: 9cf68b650dfaa6404b0aca8d5fec7f90.png (74KB, 1470x310px) Image search: [Google]

74KB, 1470x310px

>>2363585
using this pic in case of discussion. thanks

>>2362535
The vast majority died from disease. There was a genocide but not on that scale.

>>2362931
>
>
>

>>2362775
you're the only one who said anything about white guilt

>>2362563
initially sure, a few died from ignorance of how germs worked upon initial contact, but during years where it was an all out genocide governments were aware of this and actually used to give tribes blankets contaminated with smallpox because they knew it would kill them.

>>2362819
600,000 is heavily disputed within the scholarship on the subject, especially if one also considers Natives living in what would eventually become Canada that were killed by the French and British.

>>2362535
It was pretty bad what happened to the Natives.

>>2363469

>not understanding that they had a developed a legitimate socialist paradise way of looking at the world wherein the violence was mostly unnecessary because cooperation and respect was more successful
>thinking that the West's insecure disposition towards violence is actually better than any other culture and not just arbitrary and different.

>>2362791
This desu. Inshallah the ummah will be united

The US Government murdered barely any Indians. In fact the vast majority of them died before the US Government even existed. Blame Britain, France, and Spain for any supposed genocides. America only came into being after the bulk of the Indian Wars were over.

>>2362819
600,000 seems way too small. I'd guess it was closer to 10-15 million.

>>2363904
The US had plenty of a role.

>>2363413
>saying it like it's due to some sort of racial thing vs. most euro/NA nations faced industrialization, modernization and urbanization sooner

>>2363863
Natives fought tribal wars just like any other primitive people. They were not somehow magically less violent than any other race on earth. Take your racism back to /pol/.

File: image.jpg (100KB, 819x1024px) Image search: [Google]

100KB, 819x1024px

>>2362649
>cuck says nazi Germany
>doesn't call out the Jewish annihilation of Chinese and Slavs known as the communist revolution
BTW the holocaust is EXTREMELY over exaggerated. Do some research

It is one of the worst atrocities in human history, but I would say that between 1500 AD to today, there have not lived 100,000,000 Native Americans, or even 75,000,000.

>>2364140
Why are there so many of them left?
Wouldn't they all be annihilated? They had no military. Nobody was there to stop 'duh ebil huwites'

>>2362535
Kek. There were maybe 20m Amerindians in what eventually became the US at the time whitey showed up and 90-95% of them died of old-world diseases. Literally the one solitary instance of deliberate germ warfare being used against native populations is a British officer attempting to use infected blankets to infect attacking natives and not only do we not know if his plan succeeded but the local natives were already disease-riddled.

Most of them were dead long before 1776.

>>2364176
Top Kek

>>2362535
Did we ever ethnically cleanse them though? Thought it was just wars and brutal behavior - not exactly Nazi style genocide.

>>2362563
This is debated in North America though. Archaeological and documentary evidence in Central and South America is strong for epidemiological collapse based on strong urban cores and close quarters of residents of these areas, but native North America had many polities with large buffer zones between them. Read Paul Kelton, for example, who argues that naturalistic collapse in the Southeast is unlikely, or Michael Wilcox and others that such explanations don't work for the Southwest.

>>2363827
There's only one recorded instance of this in 1763. Millions of natives had already died of illness before this from normal contact and trade, certainly more than "a few".

If we're throwing around the word genocide I'd like to accuse the plains Indians. After the introduction of horses and firearms to the new world a few tribes adapted into the stereotypical Indian of today's imagination, on a horse with a gun.

This new culture were pretty much american mongols and the great horde wiped out many of the native tribes.

Fuck you racist cunts

>>2364191
Kind of. Some of the shit that happened to Native Americans in the 19th century was pretty systematic.

>>2362535
>crime
What's the law they were breaking? Perhaps you meant to say 'massacre' or 'systematic extermination' or even 'genocide' but there is no such thing as international crime, only an action by a nation that is opposed on moral grounds.

The holocaust was also not a crime, it was a genocide and actions like it are now almost unanimously opposed to. Any "sentences" imposed on a nation like Germany after WWII are simply political bodies exerting power over each other in the interest of their citizens.

Please use the correct terminology

>ITT: white boys trying to wipe their hands clean
Disease killed a good chunk of natives but there was never a time when the government wasn't trying to fuck them over. They even advertised killing them as patriotic when they started moving out west. Can't say I blame them though. Their way of life just didn't have a place in this world of business. It's sad really. Natives got it 100x worse than blacks and have been forgotten. They never really found a place in society. At least blacks have rap.

Holy shit I thought this was /b/

damn this board is shit

>>2366774

Hit the pipe Shits With Mouth

>>2363843
>US government
It's pretty specific

File: This is bait-Roman.jpg (28KB, 540x527px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 540x527px

>>2364133

>>2362535

Holdomor, Rwanda, and the Holocaust would take you up on that.

File: images (1).jpg (14KB, 300x168px) Image search: [Google]

14KB, 300x168px

>>2366757
>Genocide
>White people

I wonder which one you consider bad and which one justifies the other for you.

>>2366901

If he's smart. He'll realise that white people aren't accountable for shit they did in the past. Yes, genocide is fucking horrible, and shouldn't be wished on anyone. If he wants to wish it on whites, he's a fucking hypocrite.

>>2363439
Iran has the a lower birthrate then France and on the same level as the Netherlands. >>2363439

>>2366906
France and Ireland are the only exceptions, and arguably in France its due to the high amount of muslims boosting the bithrates

File: aynrandnativeamericans.png (201KB, 500x260px) Image search: [Google]

201KB, 500x260px

The native Americans were violent thugs who held slaves, performed human sacrifice and dreamed of expanding their territories.

No one was enforcing your liberal values on the great plains and anyone who wasted time doing so wasn't going to be very successful. The only way for any progress to be made was to let the settlers settle and encourage the natives to assimilate, in time they would get the vote and good wholesome property rights.

File: 1486902538558.jpg (359KB, 799x738px) Image search: [Google]

359KB, 799x738px

>>2366809
Joke's on you. Leadership of the Bolshevik Revolution and of the Communist revolution in Germany in 1918 were overwhelmingly Jewish

By the way, the Lolocaust didn't happen. At all.

>>2367047
Wow you're truly bringing some groundbreaking information to us here. If only we knew these essential truths.

>>2367032
>Ayn Rand is an expert on ethnopolitics and the conception of Amerind territorial histories, claims, and demarcations

How many years did she spend in the field doing ethnography again?

>>2362535
SOMEONE DOESNT KNOW WHAT GENOCIDE IS.

No.

>>2362937
>>Answering to a fictional character
laffo

>>2367032
>property rights are sacrosanct
>but I can steal from people if I don't think they're using their property the way they should.
Not that Ayn Rand's "philosophy" wouldn't be terrible schlock even if she wasn't a massive hypocrite.

File: IMG_0626.png (21KB, 298x391px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 298x391px

The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

>>2367047
try harder, faggot.

>>2367032
>it's not their property because they're using it in a way i don't like
Rand was a prick.

File: FDR.jpg (49KB, 620x730px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 620x730px

>>2367516
I got three letters for you bitch:

F

D

R

*mike drop*

>>2366901
>>2366904
Notice how I didn't use the word genocide and only used white for the green text. Right or wrong, that shit happened. Of course only a retard would hold the actions of an ancestor against their descendants. You faggots are so insecure about that shit you missed the point.

File: IMG_0690.jpg (12KB, 275x183px) Image search: [Google]

12KB, 275x183px

>>2367534
The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.