Is Catholicism a polytheistic religion?

Is the first commandment about getting top billing.

>>2337615
?

>>2337606

No.

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>>2337606

>>2337606
>pray to saints
>pray to the virgin mary
>pray to angels

yes.

Also one of the Ten Commandments was belt made for thyself no graven image of anything that is either in the heavens above the Earth beneath or in the waters under the Earth, get these Heretics fill their faux houses of worship with Idols, statues, icons and the like.
I have no idea where they get off calling themselves Christians.

>>2337606
Catholics believing in one God. So no.

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wby would the so called vicar of christ surround himself with such Pomp and opulence? Surely all that gold should be sold and given to the poor.

>>2337672
>nice try judas

>>2337677
the poor you always have with you, sure ha ha

But Jesus isn't around anymore so it's time to sell that shit

>>2337682
>falseflagging this hard

>>2337606

NO, BUT IT IS A FALSE RELIGION.

CATHOLICISM IS A JUDEOCHRISTIAN RELIGION; JUDEOCHRISTIANITY IS A CORRUPTED JUDAIZED VERSION OF AUTHENTIC GNOSTIC CHRISTIANITY; JUDEOCHRISTIANS, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY ARE AWARE OF IT, WORSHIP YHWH, NOT GOD.

>>2337694
nice caps abdulaziz

>>2337672
I genuinely don't get this. Why does the church supposedly founded by Christ/Peter be so obsessed with gold and jewels? I understand the real reason, but I don't see the internal logic.

>>2337694

t. pagan

>>2337702
Ask the God in the Old Testament. He asked for as much on at least two occasions.

>>2337707
The God in the old testament never seemed to care particularly about the plight of the poor only rarely about hypocrisy compared to how concerned Jesus seemed to be, so there's no real contradiction if you take the OT in isolation.

>>2337704
>pagan

t. retard

>>2337606
Idk if OP is trolling, but I'll bite.

Catholicism is monotheistic, but it absolutely displays multiplicity in the various forms of sacred power available to be worshipped. Although The Trinity is one, the separate sacred powers that act as one could be seen as polytheistic since one can pray to an individual sacred power of the trinity. Of course there are also saints and the Virgin Mary, which can all be prayed and worshipped separately. Worship, in this case, is mostly veneration through sacred rituals and prayers, not necessarily admitting they're the one God.

So is it polytheistic? Not by definition, but I think it would make a good claim to say that there is solid evidence for polytheistic traits. That is to say, you could say Catholicism is polytheistic based on the actual physical rituals and traditions of sacred worship, not just what the CCC says.

>>2337716
He cared.

>>2337720
So you said all that to say its Henotheistic.

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>>2337720
Worship to saints and the virigin mary is mostly veneration yes, but you can also pray to the saints in the hopes that they improve your life (for lack of a better term) this paints them as interventionist deities with superhuman powers limited to a specific area of expertise, much like those found in a demi-god of a polytheistic religion.

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>>2337606

>>2337724
Then the hypocrisy extends back to the OT. Doesn't do much to fix the problem though.

>>2337752
No, I think henotheistic implies there is a pantheon from which one is selected while the others are acknowledged.

I'm saying that Catholicism recognizes the Trinity, but the manifestation of Catholic worship resembles something almost polytheistic, whether one consciously recognizes that or not.

>>2337774
Its not hypocritical. Christianity isn't communism.

>>2337672
God is never offended by beauty.

>>2337664
Actually if you think about it, you aren't praying to Mary or the saints. You're actually asking them to pray for you. "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners..."

I-IT'S JUST VENERATION GUYS!

>>2337796
That's like saying you don't pray "to" Athena, you merely ask her to exploit her position as Zeus's favorite child to get him to do something he otherwise wouldn't be inclined to.

>>2337780
You can't on the one hand say that it's easier for a camel to pass through a needle than a rich man to enter heaven, and have Jesus advise the rich man to sell every one of his possessions if he wants to follow the path of Christ, and then turn around and deck out your church in the most expensive gaudy baubles.

>>2337796
No, you are worshipping them. Whenever you engage in a ritual for the purpose of connecting with the sacred, you are engaging in worship.

>>2337664
It's about hierarchy you dimwit.

Not even bothered explaining to you in detail, as I do not perceive you as being an enemy, therefore I do not respect you, therefore I will not argue with you, as I only respect those who are equal.

Why should I strike a thumb tack with a sledge hammer?

>>2337606
Whatever the fuck it is, it's not Christianity.

>>2337811
>muh out of context quote
whoa. Profound.

>>2337831
So is the official position of the Catholic Church that the needle quote is mistranslated and it actually refers to a wide gate, thus it is easy for the rich to enter heaven? I always thought they made fun of protestants for things like the prosperity gospel but I guess they aren't so different.

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>>2337820

>>2337672
Poverty isn't an issue solved by giving away jewels to the poor. It's only through societal change that such a thing can be eradicated.

Also, is there anything wrong with reserving your most beautiful art to be for the lord rather than for kings?

>>2337861
Why is an expensive diamond considered more beautiful than an inexpensive quartz?

>>2337870
>instead of answering question you ask "what is beauty?"
wew

>>2337606

No.

You venerate saints.
You worship God and recognize him as the only God, and Chirst as the messiah. There is a clear divide.

>>2337802
False equivalency. Athena was a goddess, and while she was lower in the pecking order, she was still a goddess. Saints are not gods. God is a god, and the only god. The relationship is not the same.

>>2337903
not him but what about Theseus or Jason, both were humans elevated to demigod status similar to humans being elevated to sainthood.

>>2337903
John 10:35 — If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

>>2337877
If your definition of beauty requires wealth, then there is a problem.

>>2337908
Demigodhood is still not godhood. Bottom line is that to pray to saints is misplaced worship that should be directed at God. Saints are objects of veneration, respect, and role models but there is a clear divide between them and the omniscient divinity of God itself.

>>2337672
the catholic church gives billions to charity

>>2337920
>omniscient divinity of God itself.
And there is a clear divide between ancestor worship, animism, personal devotion to more minor gods of the patheon and one omniscient divinity. The clear division makes it okay to do, right? So God won't begrudge anyone a little Athena or Guanyin worship as long as it's in a distinctly secondary capacity.

>>2337909
John 10:35 makes sense in context to Jesus specifically, but that cannot be said for Athena. Jesus is part of God himself; he is one part of the Trinity. He is inseparable from God itself as an entity. Athena is a divine entity entirely in and of herself; she is Zeus's progeny, yes, but she is not part of Zeus, she is her own separate goddess.

>>2337938
>Trinity
Nice meme.

>>2337935
No that is also incorrect. Thinking in a Judaeo-Christian sense, God is the only God. There are no other gods, no secondary gods, the only god is God himself. To worship anyone or anything else "on the side" violates the Ten Commandments, as it implies you are putting another entity before God himself.

>>2337625
"You shall have no other Gods before me" could be interpreted to imply that there *are* other less Gods and may very be what it meant originally.

>>2337944
Not an argument.

We're having a discussion about Catholic theology, how the hell can you not bring up the Trinity?

>>2337945
No, it's okay. There is a clear divide between the saints and an omniscient God, right? Well there's also a clear divide between Athena and an omniscient God. She's a created being, not omniscient or omnipotent, and has a distinctly human mindset compared to the unknowable "mind" of God. Nobody could possibly confuse the two, thus there is a clear distinction, and worship must be okay.

>>2337956
> There is a clear divide between the saints and an omniscient God, right?

There is, but there is also a clear divide between veneration and worship. Saints are venerated in recognition for whatever it was that made them a saint. God is worshiped because he is God, the omniscient divine entity. Worship is distinct from veneration in that worship recognizes God's place as the supreme being, for whom there exist no other gods.

>Well there's also a clear divide between Athena and an omniscient God. She's a created being, not omniscient or omnipotent, and has a distinctly human mindset compared to the unknowable "mind" of God.

So she is not a god, then. Not in a Christian sense.

>Nobody could possibly confuse the two, thus there is a clear distinction, and worship must be okay.

No, because she is not worthy of worship. Only God is worthy of worship. To worship any other entity but God violates the Ten Commandments.

>>2337970
>Not in a Christian sense
Exactly! So we agree that Athena is not a God, merely at best she's a god, but whatever the exact case may be she is clearly not a supreme being. And because she is not a supreme being, as long as God is acknowledged as The Supreme Being, the comandment against worshiping another God "before" him is not violated. It is just more convenient to ask Athena to intercede on our behalf, because she is clever and compassionate and worthy of esteem on a much more personal level. We could call her St.Athena if it would make you more comfortable, but at the end of the day we're just adding another intercessor/auxilliatrix. What's one more for the pile?

>>2337811
I'll put it this way. If I gift the church with a wonderful painting of the Holy Family, I'd be pretty pissed off if they decided to sell it for loads of cash instead of using it to adorn a church or other institution. These gifts are for the veneration of the Lord, not to be sold to a collector so it can rot in their private estate as a conversation piece.

>>2337919
But beauty IS wealth, in the sense that beauty is often coveted by the world.

It doesn't matter what form that beauty takes. It could be a gold crown studded with jewels, an expertly carved statue of a saint, or a pristine landscape admired by viewers. Beauty has worth, and thus it cannot be separated from value.

>>2337983
>If I gift the church with a wonderful painting of the Holy Family
How much did you spend on it? How much higher is that figure than the total cost of the materials, the artist's wages, taxes, upkeep etc., and why?

How much cash did they get for it? And what did they use it on? Did they buy another gold trinket, or did they feed and clothe the homeless? Does it bother you that your money would go to those people?

>>2337992
>It could be a gold crown studded with jewels,
So let's imagine we have two crowns which are aesthetically identical. One is made with "genuine" diamonds worth a fortune, the other with compressed carbon diamonds normally made for industrual purposes that cost significantly less.

Is the crown with the genuine diamonds more beautiful than the one with less expensive industrial diamonds, despite the fact that you visually cannot tell the difference? If in the dead of night when nobody was watching, the Vatican replaced their diamonds with the industrial ones but didn't tell anyone, they would still have lost beauty even thought nobody could notice?

>>2337980
>So we agree that Athena is not a God, merely at best she's a god,

She is not a god at all because there is only one god.

>. It is just more convenient to ask Athena to intercede on our behalf, because she is clever and compassionate and worthy of esteem on a much more personal level.

There is problem that you assume a saint may be able to bargain on your behalf, but that's beside the point.

The main problem here is that all worship that is not off God is against the Commandments. God is the only people, the sole being, worthy of worship. Also in the example your are providing the role you place upon the hypothetical St. Athena is already filled; that is the role of Christ. You do not need any other entity to "intercede" on your behalf because Christ already did that for the entirety of humanity. All you must do is recognize God as the only god, and Christ as the messiah. It's quite simple. St. Athena is figure for which we may venerate for her wisdom and compassion, but it is only an admiration and recognition of these traits, not a recognition of being God.

>>2338012
>There is problem that you assume a saint may be able to bargain on your behalf
Sure they can, that'a the whole point isn't it? God won't answer my prayer, so I ask Mary to pray on my behalf instead. Because Mary is more merciful than God, she listens to my prayers, and then she asks God/tells her son to do something, and he is more likely to listen. But there's a problem. Mary is a sweet old lady, to be sure, but maybe she's not so much a fan of how people talk these days or the Internet or whatever. You know how it is when people get old. So instead, I ask Guanyin to ask Mary to ask God. Guanyin will take all comers, and Mary is probably more likely to listen to Guanyin than a degenerate, and Jesus is more likely to listen to Mary. It's the only way to cut through the celestial bureaucracy, by using intercessors and mediators. And since there is a clear distinction between created beings like Guanyin and Mary and the Supreme God, whatever I do with Guanyin and Mary is clearly not whatever is done with God, thus, even if it is called worship it is actually just veneration, and thus okay. Mary is just a woman, not God, and Guanyin is just some sort of vague eastern deity/specific cultural concept who is certainly not the omniscient and omnipotent God. Like you say, there is only one God, and we can't lump all divine beings into being God otherwise angels couldn't exist. So I recognize Guanyin for extending out her thousand hands, helping where Mary might feel uncomfortable and Jesus might not care. Certainly can't be anything wrong with that, it's just veneration.

>>2337606
Reminder that most christian saints are just pagan gods/heroes with a changed name so the plebs can keep worshiping them while remaining christian™.

>>2338011
Ask humans why they value actual gold over something that looks identical but isn't gold. I still haven't figured out why, but we for some reason prefer the real deal over a perfect replica, and the only thing I've been able to come up with is beauty is not just in the visual representation of the object, but also a function of scarcity.

For example, I would say theoretically, a mighty oak tree is something awe inspiring, but due to its common nature, people value it less since the concept of a beautiful oak tree can be seen anywhere. In the same way, processed silica is also in its own way amazing, but beauty comes from taking that silica dirt and creating something marvelous from it. Beauty itself is a strange, subjective concept by humans and closely related to the concept of "value," which is determined by many factors.

>>2337994
Assume it was something I created with a paintbrush and canvas and it became semi-renowned. I only use this example because a real life example happened similar with another institution.

A local family in my town had gifted our chapter of boy scouts with a lush 200 acre wilderness to be used as a wilderness campground for local and neighboring scouts sometime in the 60s. Legally, the transfer went to the Boy Scouts of America of the Gulf Coast Region, headquartered in a city over a hundred miles away.

When the scouting organization of the region fell on hard times in the late 2000s, in order to preserve the region's scouting as a whole, it was decided to sell off this land to a private entity in order to protect the headquarters' activities. This caused great unrest to the family that donated the land in the first place, since now a place that was given with the understanding it would be used by the locals for a specific purpose was now being sold away as an auction piece for an unrelated matter with said locals having no say in the sale or who would buy it.

>>2338074
Gold has inherent value due to its properties such as conductivity and ductility, and in a more abstract sense scarcity makes it a useful marker or symbol of value, but in terms of pure aesthetics there is no reason to value it so high, which is what its purpose in art is. Diamonds even more so, because the cheaper industrial diamonds can be of much higher quality for a much lower price. If part of the value of the art is "I could have chosen to house the homeless but instead chose to have a shiny thing" that is a bit of a problem for an organization that claims to be the sole legitimate moral authority on the planet. That's the sticking point here, that God's voice on earth needs to be decked out in fancy trinkets and sparkles while directing their much poorer congregation to donate to them. You go to Latin America for example and people donate to the church far beyond their means because "it's the right thing to do, God provides" and then that money gets turned around and re-invested in another diamond-studded crucifix. How much is enough?

In the boy scout example, there was an explicit betrayal of the intended land use. But part of the stated goal of the church is the elimination or least the lessening of poverty, isn't it?

>>2337606
No and anyone who says it is has a hilariously uninformed view and probably is thinking of deliberate misinterpretations of Catholic dogma created to attack the Church and try and make the Protestant reformation look like a good idea in hindsight.

>>2337950
To be fair, Christians is a polytheist religion.

>>2337949
Pretty much. Jews back then did believe in multiple gods. This also helped to make the switch from polytheism to what is effectively monotheism less jarring.
So technically, belief in other gods isn't unbiblical.

>>2338164
If I did with Jesus what the Catholics do with Mary, you would say I'm worshiping Jesus.

>>2338103
Conductivity wasn't a big deal back in the medieval era and before, and as far as I can tell, it's primary purpose was in the creation of art, and for that, it commanded a impressively higher value than more useful metals such as iron. Why it was valued for jewelry and other effects over other metals, I cannot say. Myself, I find beauty in practical things, though I suppose in a way, owning such a rare item such as a gold ring or crown has a practical purpose in itself -- to proclaim one's ability to obtain something so valuable, one must have considerable sway. There is certainly a trend such as that among African nations most obviously, but everywhere seems to put stock into the notion to various degrees.

As for the eradication of poverty, it's not a problem that is simply fixed by handing a man a stack of bills and telling him to buy something nice. Poverty comes from disenfranchisement in the system, alienation from the community, and a lack of value of one's talents. Even though it's incredibly trite, I would say the old adage applies: "Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to fish and he'll never go hungry."

The Church certainly has organizations within itself to lessen the direct effects of poverty. After all, humans have to eat to stay alive, and shelter is important to the security of all individuals. But it is also on a higher level that the Church campaigns, one that seeks to change the social order so that the poor might find themselves one day no longer in such a state. How to accomplish that task is disagreed on by many within the ranks, and on a wider scale, by nations, governments, and individuals. No one quite knows how to ensure that all humans have wealth in the world, and entire wars have been fought over ideology of the issue. Parts of the church in different locales attempt varying methods: Some campaign for socialist systems, others for the creation of jobs and worker rights in capitalist ones.

>>2338202
Moreso, there's even disagreements over what constitutes poverty and when enough is enough. Everyone seems to agree on the obvious, men need food to sustain themselves, a roof over their head, clothes to wear, and all that jazz. But then we find ourselves looking at poverty as a relative issue; if a man cannot afford the same lifestyle as 95% of his peers, but still has the previously mentioned things, is he poor? Do people require modern conveniences such as a privately owned vehicle, a TV, or a computer? How much healthcare is a person entitled to before they can hang up their "poor" status?

Ideally, conditions for humans of all classes should improve as much as we are able to, and over the year, for the majority of people in the west at least, things have. While we certainly have our share of vagrants and citizens living in shelters and outside, the majority of those we consider poor are people who still own either a small apartment or other rental property, who might still have a family vehicle, who still have access to TV, news, books, and the works, even if they must go to a library to utilize the latter. We consider them struggling, and to some degree they are, but often they are much better off than the majority of the developing world. It is a relative poorness they are undergoing, and while we certainly want to improve their conditions, we must at some point draw the line and move to providing other services, such as the spiritual and moral health of individuals and families.

One might argue a priest could conduct his services without any sort of gold studded jewelry or implements, or that marble altars are too extravagant, or that the church building and property itself is too opulant, and if need be, those thing can be forgone as well. But their utilization is in itself a reverence to God, in that we put Him over the material things of the world.

>>2337646
/thread

>>2338053
I see what you did there.

>>2337694
Woah take it easy

>>2337949
The phrase means "don't worship anyone/anything other than me". For example material wealth, like many people do today. Or TV. Or politicians.

>>2337949
There is no need to think of implications. People back then worshipped multiple gods.

>>2337672
A) because most of it is gold gild (leaf) not solid gold
B) The ones who are solid gold are probably historical artifacts entrusted to the Holy see in the name of the Italian people
C) The church is the single largest charity

Are saints and the virgin mary gods by definition to you?

Not yet.

Yes it is. Pagans in asia/pakistan actually consider catholics as kin because they see them as fellow pagans.

>>2337606
Yes
Also it's not Christian

>>2337949
>>2338183
It literally means "in my presence", retards

>>2340663
Varg Vikerness made a video about how he believes Catholics to be pagan

>>2337820

damn the fedora is strong with this post

>>2337677
>my church is Jesus
Really makes me think

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>>2337820
Christcucks are the real fedoras.

Case in point.

>>2340843
to be fair, christianity as a whole is very pagan like, those pagan tribes consider all christians to be pagans

>>2337606
>>2337664
>>2337797
>>2337821
>>2338065
>>2340663
>>2340837
Return to your echo chamber → http://archive.is/6BLJY

>>2337820

Yes, Nicolaitan, it is.

Now find out what Jesus said about Nicolaitans.

>>2337949
You can call your shoes your god, if you'd like. Won't make them God, but they will be your god.

>>2340865
Get out, papist

>>2337702
The Holy Roman Empire that's why

>we don't have to follow our own rules because reasons
t.christianity

>>2342839
>Christianity derives exclusively from autistically following a compilation of spiritual text and isn't the result of several civilizations worth of thought formulating into a religion.
WHEN. WILL. THIS. MEME. DIE!?!

>>2344390
"Or to put it another way, wherever you go; there goes the church. This raises questions about Matthew 18:19-20, which says that wherever two or three are gathered together in the name of Jesus, He is there with them in their midst. This verse is often used in one of three ways."

>>2338200
>If I did with Jesus what the Catholics do with Mary, you would say I'm worshiping Jesus.
We ask Mary to pray for us. If you asked Jesus to pray for us you woud be denying his divinity. So no, you are wrong.

>>2338209
>But their utilization is in itself a reverence to God, in that we put Him over the material things of the world.
I guess this is my actual fundamental objection and everything else is mostly ancillary. If you yourself give up an item of material value, that is in some sense putting your God above your wealth, but if you can afford it then it's just a way of pridefully showing off your wealth, and if you can't afford it you're being exploited by an organization guilt-tripping you beyond your means. And it would be one thing if those resources were re-invested into the community, or into the poverty problem at large. But getting used as fancy baubles doesn't mean you're putting God above material things, because you're using the material thing to carry out the worship in the first place. It's like the difference between handing someone an expensive gift vs a thoughtful one, but on a societal scale. It is in and of itself a re-enforcement of the reverence for the material, to hoard it and show it off, with disastrous consequences for the ones who contribute to it.

>>2344404
>if you asked Jesus to pray for us you would be denying his divinity.
Jesus prayed to God the Father numerous times. Why wouldn't you be able to pray to Jesus specifically to pray for you to God the Father while in heaven? When he prayed was he denying his own divinity?

>>2337672
>wby would the so called vicar of christ surround himself with such Pomp and opulence?
Because the Vicar of Christ is surrounded by the Church, and the Church is the earhly mirror of the heavenly kingdom in heaven. The heavenly kingdom is something so beautiful we can't even grasp it, so it makes sense for the Church on earth to try and be aestheticlly pleasing and worth of its character as much as it can. God himself in the Bible clearly points out that he likes gold and things dedicated to him should be made of worthy materials.
Neither the Pope nor the clergy own that wealth, in fact they can't even have children so they couldn't even pass down the priesthood thus becoming religious welfare dinasties or something. But that is also critisized by the atheists and the heretics. You'll often find that the Church is accused of doing bad things always on both sides of the spectrum, so as to cover all political leanings and ideals of those that satan tries to distance from the Church. Not an accident that all protestants parrot the meme "get out of here" when talking about the Catholic Church. That's exactly because it's the True Church and Satan hates whoever is in it.

>>2337925
And how many of those charities are actually charities and not Mother Theresa tier scams?

>>2344416
>Neither the Pope nor the clergy own that wealth, in fact they can't even have children so they couldn't even pass down the priesthood thus becoming religious welfare dinasties or something.
True and an interesting perspective. I've heard it as well online that being a priest is a sacrifice, not a privilege. Something that goes over people's heads.

How hard is it to convert to Catholicism?

>>2344422
it's not simple. you gotta attend a class.

>>2344409
You never got a nice watch and started to be careful with it to avoid scratching the glass making you love the watch even more as the cycle spirals out of control into paranoia where you walk around looking like you're covering your crotch just to always keep your hand over the face until one day while trying to turn a corner on the way to work someone bumps into you throwing your hand into motion as the watch is slammed against a lamppost leading to an emotional breakdown that is probably more about your girlfriend cheating on you with your best friend that you subconsciously realize but are in denial about?

>>2344422

That sounds easy

>>2344426
>>2344434

>>2344416
>Neither the Pope nor the clergy own that wealth,
While that's probably great for tax purposes, if they have access to it and the ability to enjoy it through lavish mansions and so on the actual practical distinction is meaningless.

>>2344412
>Jesus prayed to God the Father numerous times.
Jesus on earth was acting as the perfect man (unreachable to us, but still there as a model of perfection even on earth). Jesus prayed to show us that we need to pray, also because praying was the way in which he kept in contact with the Father.
> Why wouldn't you be able to pray to Jesus specifically to pray for you to God the Father while in heaven?
Because Jesus and God the Father are the same being, they are one. It's like asking your right hand to move your left hand, complete non-sense. You shouldn't do it because it's heresy as it creates a separation between the persons of the trinity. All that the Father has, the Son has also. Therefore when you pray to Christ the Father hears and feels his prayer directed at him too.

>>2344421
>I've heard it as well online that being a priest is a sacrifice, not a privilege.
Indeed, that is the whole point. One thing I hated about the tv show "the young pope" and its subtle anti-catholicism was how they defined priests as cowards running away from love. Thus not understanding that the love of a priest is the most corageous one, one that chooses Christ over every woman in the world, one that chooses spiritual fulfilling in heaven over any sort of earthly ejaculation on earth. A love that abandons itself completely to the mistery and infinity of God, rather than being contempt with the (althought virtuous) love attainable on earth. An abandonment that gets rid of all the "what if" and becomes a brave persistence in love towards God.
At least, this is how I see it and it makes perfect sense to me.

>>2344441
>Because Jesus and God the Father are the same being, they are one
So "Jesus"/"God the Son" is identical to "God the Father"?

>>2344438
>if they have access to it and the ability to enjoy it through lavish mansions and so on the actual practical distinction is meaningless.
Only some bishops and cardinals find themselves in "lavish mansions" sometimes, but you have to understand that's because the Church is 2000 years old. I can assure you that a normal apartment from the 1500s is pretty fucking expensive and also have some very valuable art in it for the sole reason that it was preserved by the Church instead of sold out to pay for some infertile objective. Then a bishop is placed there because it's property of the Church, and suddenly everyone says he's living the good life or some shit like that. You have to look at things in context. Of course there will be also bishops who abuse their position, but that's true for every human endeavour and Christ never said that the Church would be perfect, only that it wouldn't fall completely to evil, but exist and persist on earth until the end of times.

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>>2344452
>So "Jesus"/"God the Son" is identical to "God the Father"?
Do you even trinity m8? Discussing this sort of stuff in detail is pointless, we can never understand the Trinity completely. What we know though is that the Trinity has three persons, which are the same one inseparable being. Trying to claim some sort of hierarchy between them is pointless and always ends up into making some heretical claim. There is an anecdote with St.Augustine as protagonist that teaches exactly this. Pic related.

"if you understand it, it's not God" - St.Augustine

>>2344456
>Only some bishops and cardinals find themselves in "lavish mansions" sometimes
And only some people are billionaires. This is cold comfort to everyone else.

>You have to look at things in context.
Contextually, I see a very small group of people who when collecting money from their constituents do so for "brotherly charity" but when asked to invest their own refuse to do pay out for "infertile objectives."

>>2344422
Depending where you are you might have a 6 week class or yo might have a 1 year class required to get communion

>>2344452
Hypostatic union

>>2344464
Three distinct persons, your words. One prayed to the other, attested to biblically. Let's not even open up the "my father is greater than me" cup of worms, or the fact that Jesus does not know the hour of his return but the father does. If they are distinct, in any capacity, there should be no issue praying to one versus the other, and if you can pray to one why can that prayer not include a request for more?

>>2344434
It's not hard, no. They teach you the catechism, you do a confession etc, then you get communion

>>2344468
>And only some people are billionaires
[citation needed]
If a bishop makes money, it's not because the Church gives it to them, that's for sure


>Contextually, I see a very small group of people who when collecting money from their constituents do so for "brotherly charity" but when asked to invest their own refuse to do pay out for "infertile objectives."
By infertile objectives I meant simply buying a carrot more to feed the poor, who then would be hungry the next day. You seem to have a bias towards the Church for the sole fact that it uses money to do good and also to sustain itself. The money the Church uses comes from the Church itself, because it comes from the faithful who make up the Church, so your whole point is silly. Of course there will be people inside the Church, as I have said, that are corrupted and will abuse their position, but that's true for every organization on earth as it's made of fallible, prone to sin people. That doesn't change that in principle, and in the overwhelming majority of its efforts, the Church does nothing wrong.

>>2344482
>or the fact that Jesus does not know the hour of his return but the father does.
Different poster but from what understand when Christ was a human, this was the case. After his resurrection/glorification its no longer the case.

>>2344476

>1 year

Can't I just take like, a test to waive that shit if I can demonstrate I've already learned it?

>>2344490
Hope that you'ren't trying to deny that the Christ was both fully human and fully divine during his life 'cuz I'm pretty sure that the early church fathers decided that to be heresy.

>>2344409
I think there was a whole section in the bible talking about that. Something like the Pharisees blowing a horn before depositing a great amount of wealth in the temple treasury, followed by a poor widow depositing just two coins. Jesus said the widow was the greater of the two because the Pharisee gave from his surplus wealth, while the woman gave from what she needed to live on.

Regardless if you agree with the sentiment or not (Personally, I think it's sort of foolish to give wealth away that you would need to survive as your continued life is far more valuable in word and action than it is for a few small coins to a large entity that has plenty.), it's pretty much from the horse's mouth right there. I would say though that the idea isn't so much that you must give the money you need to live on away, but rather give something that's actually important to you, be it money, time, or otherwise.

>>2344492
I told you it's not that simple
go to some protestant church and pray a quick prayer if you're not into it.

>>2344482
>Three distinct persons, your words. One prayed to the other, attested to biblically
And I have already told you that Christ is praying because that is how you communicate with God while you are on earth. He is showing us what we have to do to be children of God, glorify him and speak to him. That's part of the plan of salvation, one of the reasons why he incarnated in a man.
>Let's not even open up the "my father is greater than me" cup of worms
ah, so you are one of those who read things by the letter without seeing the spirit behind it. Pic related.
What Christ is saying there is "you haven't seen anything yet, you have no idea how great God is and what he can do". He is telling them not to think that what he showed them is the limits of the power of God, and that he is merely showing them what he is given task to as the Messiah.
> or the fact that Jesus does not know the hour of his return but the father does
In that passage Christ isn't saying that he doesn't know, because as I said before all that the Father has, the Son has also. What he is saying in that context is that it is not his mission to reveal that to us, so it will not be given as information from heaven for him to spread. If men knew the exact time, men would only be righteous towards the end of time, and not before that. That's why he has to come "like a thief in the night"
>If they are distinct, in any capacity, there should be no issue praying to one versus the other, and if you can pray to one why can that prayer not include a request for more?
You can pray and call him Our Father, Christ, Jesus, Holy Spirit. That's fine. You are still worshipping the same God, sometimes the prayer has a certain detail which concerns the specific roles of the three persons as different manifestations of the same God, but that's it. You cannot ask though to one person to pray to the other person, that's heresy, because they are the same thing and not separate.

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>>2344518
forgot pic

>>2344441
>>I've heard it as well online that being a priest is a sacrifice, not a privilege.
This is actually one thing I think needs to be applied to governmental leaders as well. So many want to fight over a position of power when the position should be a sacrifice for the betterment of the nation. Your role is to serve the people, not to try and sit yourself in a leadership position to further your own interests.

Not that those sacrifices really even keep priests honest, we still have several who go in it for temporal power. The one who just left my local parish was one of them, who took up the mantle of priest because he was the youngest of a family of seven and couldn't get any authority any other way since he was always looked on as the baby.

>>2344486
>[citation needed]
Are you asking me to cite the fact that not every person alive is a billionaire? Really?

>The money the Church uses comes from the Church itself, because it comes from the faithful who make up the Church,
There is a difference between the money taken from constituents and wealth accrued from centuries of political power, yes.

>That doesn't change that in principle, and in the overwhelming majority of its efforts, the Church does nothing wrong.
I can't tell whether or not you're trying to bait me into saying the obvious here or not. Only a few in the hierarchy need to be evil if they're powerful enough to do as they please.

>>2344522
>Not that those sacrifices really even keep priests honest, we still have several who go in it for temporal power

Indeed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqiqO5BzH74

>>2344518
>And I have already told you that Christ is praying because that is how you communicate with God while you are on earth.
So once a human reaches heaven, prayer ceases to work? So what is it you are actually asking Mary to do for you, seeing as how she can no longer pray? Or are you saying Jesus wasn't human?
The middle two points have no scriptural basis, not much point in discussing them.
>different manifestations of the same God,
Literal heresy.

>>2344526
>Are you asking me to cite the fact that not every person alive is a billionaire? Really?
Oops soory, my bad I read that as "only some bishops are billionaires" and from that misreading came my reply.

>There is a difference between the money taken from constituents and wealth accrued from centuries of political power, yes.
It's ironic how you seem to think that having a constituency made of faithful doesn't automatically give you some kind of political power and think you can split the two successfully. Also the Church hasn't really had decent temporal power for many centuries. It held on to cultural power long enough but even that has slipped away since the French Revolution.
The Church has that wealth because it is the oldest institution on earth, and that's why its inevitable for its assets to be so valuable. Besides, it's not really stuff you can sell easily either, it's works of art, buildings etc., not derivatives or stock options. You are grasping at straws at this point. Just admit that you hate the Church, but don't paint yourself as the moralizer and the Church as le ebil institution because that's not true.

>I can't tell whether or not you're trying to bait me into saying the obvious here or not. Only a few in the hierarchy need to be evil if they're powerful enough to do as they please.
What are you even trying to say? If a bishop or a cardinal do something illegal they can still be sued, you know? In fact lawyers foam at the mouth when they hear the words Catholic Church, because the Church has money and therefore winning a case against them means making mad dosh.
I guess you are not part of any organization then, because in literally every single one of them there's corrupt people. "Evil" is a cartoonish description that applies, even among the corrupted ones, to very few, not just in the Church but in society in general. People are simply flawed, deal with it.

>>2344529
Nothing gets my fervor going than seeing a leader abuse his position. Tyrants deserve to be cast down, no matter if they're a king, a priest, or a president. It's one of the few ways I can feel sympathetic to liberalism, because they see these injustices and take things to their logical extreme, the destruction of all institutions that could house them. While I don't agree, I could see how someone trampled upon could fall into such extremism.

The official Catholic view of the matter is that leaders should be servants to their followers: The pope should serve the cardinals, the cardinals serve the arch-bishops, the arch-bishops serve the bishops, and so forth. Naturally, because a leadership position comes with power, it attracts less scrupulous individuals to them.

>>2344536
>So once a human reaches heaven, prayer ceases to work?
All the contrary. There's a reason why we ask for intercession to the saints, that's because in heaven people pretty much pray 24/7
> So what is it you are actually asking Mary to do for you, seeing as how she can no longer pray?
She can pray, she prays for us.
>Or are you saying Jesus wasn't human?
Jesus was fully human and fully divine
>Literal heresy.
uh, manifestations in the way we perceive them and understand them. The Son came in the flesh, thus manifested to us in a certain way, but he was still God. Just throwing the accusation of heresy at me without elaborating isn't really an argument, you know?

>>2344556
>The official Catholic view of the matter is that leaders should be servants to their followers: The pope should serve the cardinals, the cardinals serve the arch-bishops, the arch-bishops serve the bishops, and so forth. Naturally, because a leadership position comes with power, it attracts less scrupulous individuals to them.
Yes, and that's why it should amaze you that the Church has been standing for so long. That's because God protects it, and therefore the gates of hell don't prevail.
The Pope is called "the servant of the servants of God". Fact is, when you become Pope you have so much responsibility. The closer you come to God on earth, the higher the standard he holds you to is. There's an anecdote of a Pope who was considered particularly virtuous and that after his death appeared to a Catholic mystic (later made saint) and told her that he would have to stay in Purgatory until the end of times.

>>2344550
>Also the Church hasn't really had decent temporal power for many centuries.
If you look specifically to the anglosphere and Europe, yes. Outside that specific context though, the church does just fine. There is a reason I used Latin America as my example, though I could have easily used Africa or portions of Asia instead. There is plenty of political and cultural power to be had.

I'm also bewildered as to how you're portraying the church as not "actually worth all that much, and yet it's somehow also a juicy target for those damn dishonest lawyers looking for a paycheck. Which is it? Does the church have accessible wealth or not?

>Just admit that you hate the Church, but don't paint yourself as the moralizer and the Church as le ebil institution because that's not true.
Oh, I'll make no secret of my distaste for the Church. That much ought to be incredibly obvious. But despite repeating the mantra that the church can do no wrong, once you actually look at the actions it takes the reality becomes a bit more obvious. Though I guess you have a point in that institutions are morally neutral, it's their leaders that define them. Exploitative leaders make for an exploitative institution.

> "Evil" is a cartoonish description that applies, even among the corrupted ones, to very few, not just in the Church but in society in general.
It's a literal aspect of the church's theology and how it characterizes things like remarriage.

> People are simply flawed, deal with it.
If only God were as forgiving of everyone's sins as you are to the church's.

>>2344565
>All the contrary.
So then if prayer works after humans ascend to heaven, and Jesus was human, why do Jesus' prayers not work after he ascended to heaven?

> manifestations in the way we perceive them and understand them.
You're flirting with a bunch of heresies, but mostly modalism and especially Sabellianism.

>>2337606

It's a pagan religion, yes.

>>2344612
>There is a reason I used Latin America as my example, though I could have easily used Africa or portions of Asia instead. There is plenty of political and cultural power to be had.
I assure you that temporal power isn't there anymore, it's freemasonry and jews that have had power in western societies, latin america included, ever since the french revolution.

>I'm also bewildered as to how you're portraying the church as not "actually worth all that much, and yet it's somehow also a juicy target for those damn dishonest lawyers looking for a paycheck. Which is it? Does the church have accessible wealth or not?
You lack reading comprehension. I have been telling you that the individuals of the Church don't benefit from its wealth particularly, and that most of its wealth is due to the high value of the assets that have survived for centuries exactly thanks to the Church. It's not like they have stock options was a way for me to explain to you that it's not even something they can easily sell and make money from. Without the faithful, that stuff would not be able to receive maintenance and would have to be demolished. You have no idea what you are talking about, this is a sterile discussion with someone who doesn't have truth and objectiveness at heart.

>That much ought to be incredibly obvious. But despite repeating the mantra that the church can do no wrong, once you actually look at the actions it takes the reality becomes a bit more obvious
Like what? What actions?

>It's a literal aspect of the church's theology and how it characterizes things like remarriage.
You used evil in a cartoonish way. Church's theology says that all men are corrupted and therefore capable of evil. Being evil on the other hand is worse than being corrupted, it means abandoning yourself to the corruption rather than fighting it.

>>2344612
>If only God were as forgiving of everyone's sins as you are to the church's.
That is literal heresy. God's mercy is infinite, and is only limited by his infinite justice. When mercy hits against justice, then we are punished.
Fyi your passive-aggressive attitude doesn't make you sound smart btw, only like an insufferable asshole.

>>2344642

>Fyi your passive-aggressive attitude doesn't make you sound smart btw, only like an insufferable asshole.

Biggest reason why Atheists get as much shit as they do.

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>>2344622
>So then if prayer works after humans ascend to heaven, and Jesus was human, why do Jesus' prayers not work after he ascended to heaven?
M8, Jesus = God. You cannot ask Jesus to pray to himself, that doesn't make any sense and the only reason why one would do that, is if they thought Jesus isn't God.

>You're flirting with a bunch of heresies, but mostly modalism and especially Sabellianism.
Fuck off Arius

>>2344639
>it's freemasonry and jews that have had power in western societies,
How? Be specific.

>I have been telling you that the individuals of the Church don't benefit from its wealth particularly
And again, only a few people are billionaires. Most lay Catholics aren't rich, I know, that isn't what I'm saying. There are a few specific people at the top of the hierarchy that are able to exploit their position for personal profit. Whatever priest you happen to have at your local parish is not the person I'm talking about.
>It's not like they have stock options was a way for me to explain to you that it's not even something they can easily sell and make money from.
So why do lawyers go after them? If the money is all tied up in these assets that can't be liquidated, why do the lawyers see a payday again? You can't have it both ways: either the money is accessible or it isn't.

>Like what? What actions?
Does the current head of the church having been personally involved in shielding accused molesters count or not? (Congratulations, I took the bait.)

> Being evil on the other hand is worse than being corrupted, it means abandoning yourself to the corruption rather than fighting it.
Or being complicit in it. But I'm sure you'll have a great excuse for this one.

>When mercy hits against justice, then we are punished.
A little of that justice directed into the church rather than coming out of it would go a long way, then.

>>2344648
I'm not an atheist, actually. Though yeah, I'll admit to being an asshole.

>>2344682

You're winning, if that matters. Papists don't have any answers to your questions, and the ones they are giving you are lies.

>>2344659

Christians pray in the Spirit to the Father in the name of the Son.

Catholics bow and pray to idols of Mary and other dead people, and chant meaningless repetitive words that God does not hear.

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>>2344659
Yes, Jesus = God and The Father = God, but Jesus != The Father. This is a fairly common understanding of the Trinity, and non-heretical, while denying the distinctness of the three persons is.

>Fuck off Arius
If you have an argument, present it.

>>2344682
>How? Be specific.
Study history m8. Any country that has institutionalized divorce, or abortion, isn't a Catholic country by definition

>Most lay Catholics aren't rich, I know, that isn't what I'm saying. There are a few specific people at the top of the hierarchy that are able to exploit their position for personal profit.
And? Most members of the Church aren't rich either. In fact I just told you that if a bishop has lots of money it isn't because it is given to him by the Church. The people at the top exploit their position for personal profit? Can you make some examples instead of throwing empty accusations? Also can you name any institution on earth that doesn't fit this explanation of yours? By your definition we should all be anarchists.
>Whatever priest you happen to have at your local parish is not the person I'm talking about.
Ok, but what's the conclusion of your statements. What good is it to claim that some people higher in authority can do bad things? Everyone can do bad things regardless of their position in society. If they do something illegal or sinful they can be denounced. So what's your point in specifically accusing the Church with such empty accusations?
As you yourself admit, you just hate the Church. Doesn't matter what the Church does, you would always hate her.

>Does the current head of the church having been personally involved in shielding accused molesters count or not? (Congratulations, I took the bait.)
Except he didn't

>Or being complicit in it. But I'm sure you'll have a great excuse for this one.
Oh, so did he shield them or was he complicit in it? Lmao you can't even agree with yourself in the same post. He wasn't complicit at all.

>A little of that justice directed into the church rather than coming out of it would go a long way, then.
Ok so what kind of justice do you want? Who do you want to punish, for what exactly and with what punishment?

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>>2344691
Remember that God doesn't care about your excuses. Your hatres for his Church will not be tolerated. Matthew 7:21.

>>2344705
>es, Jesus = God and The Father = God, but Jesus != The Father.
Of course but the three persons are the same God. Praying to Jesus = Praying to God. Praying to the Father = Praying to God.
Asking Jesus to pray to the Father = Asking God to pray to God.
Does it make sense to you to do such a thing, my little internet heretic?

>If you have an argument, present it.
The argument is that Arius was a heretic and the Nicene Creed refutes your heresies. I have already explained to you the meaning of those Bible verses you falsely interpret, so what else am I supposed to do? I have already done presented plenty of arguments while you presented none.

>>2344711
Any country that has something worse, annulment, is Catholic. Even if kids are involved. For the right price, of course. And if you don't think nuns are getting abortions, you don't know anything about nuns, nuns being raped by priests, or really anything from the real world.

The Vatican is the wealthiest country on earth per capita.

Bergolio has all sorts of kiddie raping cover up stories from Argentina; don't kid yourself. Oh, wait, you're a papist. Believe everything the kiddie rapers tell you.

>>2344728
good thing it's not His church, but the devil's.

>>2344728
Yes, it makes sense to obey God, papist.

John 14
And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

>>2344731
>largest christian church is one massive pedophilia cult designed around enriching its leaders
>catholics are the first to scream about muh degeneracy when secularism happens

Pretty ironic.

>>2344565
>All the contrary. There's a reason why we ask for intercession to the saints, that's because in heaven people pretty much pray 24/7

Nobody in heaven has ever heard from you, never.

>>2344746
Aye, and then they start blathering about their charity work. Let's just take a closer look at that, shall we?

Schools. So Jesuits can indoctrinate your children into what they want them to know, and nothing else.

Hospitals. So they can have complete control over your healthcare.

Churches. So they can keep you coming in, week after week, putting your two mites into the collection plate, performing their abominable rites and rituals, and "confessing" your sins to a guy who may or may not be raping your son.

That's some lineup of total control and degeneracy, right there.

>>2344731
>Any country that has something worse, annulment, is Catholic
Annulment is only possible under certain strict conditions, which probably less than 0.0001% of the married population fall into.
> Even if kids are involved. For the right price, of course
[citation needed]
Let's say a priest did that. It wouldn't count, and the ones who ask for the annullment themselves would know it doesn't count. The priest doesn't have the power to administer a sacrament in breach of the guidelines from the Magisterium of the Church. It is the Magisterium that binds and looses on earth, not the single priest. It's like taking the Eucharist while not in a state of grace. Sure you can fool others on earth, but you do it to your own condemnation.
>And if you don't think nuns are getting abortions, you don't know anything about nuns, nuns being raped by priests, or really anything from the real world.
t.buzzfeed
Leave the internet and actually go and meet people irl m8. Also people like you make me sick, always there accusing others of evil just because it makes them feel good about their own wickedness. Evil is not something you run away from, it's something you fight head-on. This kind of attitude is exactly why atheist societies are constantly relegated to the dustbin of history, you simply give up your humanity, because like all unrepentant sinners you are fundamentally a coward. And I am sorry to have it to break down to you like this, but your arrogance in simply throwing such empty accusations is nauseating.
Also [citation needed]

>Bergolio has all sorts of kiddie raping cover up stories from Argentina; don't kid yourself. Oh, wait, you're a papist. Believe everything the kiddie rapers tell you.
Yeah? Tell me about the Bergoglio kiddie raping stories then. [citation needed]

>>2344762
I am in the real world. Where are you?

The Catholic Church in Rome made the extraordinary admission yesterday that it is aware priests from at least 23 countries have been sexually abusing nuns.
Most of the abuse has occurred in Africa, where priests vowed to celibacy, who previously sought out prostitutes, have preyed on nuns to avoid contracting the Aids virus.
Confidential Vatican reports obtained by the National Catholic Reporter, a weekly magazine in the US, have revealed that members of the Catholic clergy have been exploiting their financial and spiritual authority to gain sexual favours from nuns, particularly those from the Third World who are more likely to be culturally conditioned to be subservient to men.

>>2344762
The Vatican reports cited countless cases of nuns forced to have sex with priests. Some were obliged to take the pill, others became pregnant and were encouraged to have abortions. In one case in which an African sister was forced to have an abortion, she died during the operation and her aggressor led the funeral mass. Another case involved 29 sisters from the same congregation who all became pregnant to priests in the diocese.

Too many red pills yet?

>>2344731
>The Vatican is the wealthiest country on earth per capita.

No shits Sherlock, the overall population is measurement in dozens.

>Bergoglio is covering up l'ora of stories of child abuse in Argentina.
>Nuns getting raped en-masse

And otters wrap chocolate bars in tinfoil. Yes, there is a literature on those kind of cases, but that does not mean they happen as frequently as you hink.

>>2344762
More recently, in 1998, Sister Marie McDonald, mother superior of the Missionaries of Our Lady of Africa, put together a paper entitled The Problem of the Sexual Abuse of African Religious in Africa and Rome.

More?

>>2344762
The clerical sex abuse scandal unfolding at an institute for hearing impaired children in Argentina is now touching Pope Francis himself, after alleged victims of Rev. Nicola Corradi said they wrote a letter to the pontiff in 2014 warning him that the purported pedophile had been reassigned to the South American country.

Corradi, 82, and another priest, 55-year-old Horacio Corbacho, were arrested last month along with three employees for the alleged abuse of at least 24 deaf children who attended the Antonio Provolo Institute, in the city of Mendoza.

Police raided the institute and found magazines featuring naked women and about $34,000 in Corradi's room.

More on this...

Vatican Will Face Tough Questions On Its Child Sex Abuse Record Publicly For The First Time
Vatican: Former Ambassador To Dominican Republic Covered By Diplomatic Immunity In Abuse Investigation
Vatican Official Arrested For Allegedly Smuggling Millions Into Italy
The victims' families contend that the Vatican knew about him since at least 2009, when he was publicly accused of abusing students at the Provolo Institute in Verona, Italy, where he then worked.

Sick yet?

>>2344762
Bergoglio’s implication, that he handled no abusive priests, is implausible. Buenos Aires is Argentina’s largest diocese, and Bergoglio was one of its top executives from 1992 to 2013 – a period when tens of thousands of victims worldwide reported their abuse to the Church. Based on data disclosed in dioceses in the US and Europe, we estimate conservatively that from 1950 to 2013, more than 100 Buenos Aires archdiocesan priests offended against children and that dozens of them were known to archdiocesan supervisors, including Bergoglio.

BishopAccountability.org presents this overview of Bergoglio’s role and the abuse crisis in the Argentina church in the hopes of facilitating more disclosure and understanding of Pope Francis’s approach to this grave and pressing issue. We highlight Bergoglio’s involvement in five cases, the current response to abuse by other Argentine bishops, and the unusually important role of whistleblowers. Finally, we provide an in-depth database of accused Argentine priests. Our first non-US database, this marks the launch of our global coverage; we eventually will produce accused priest databases for all countries with significant Catholic populations.

Puking your guts out yet?

>>2344711
>Any country that has institutionalized divorce, or abortion, isn't a Catholic country by definition
And the policies/attitudes towards abortion in Latin America became a problem during the Zika crisis. What does that have to do with jews and freemasons, by the way?

>What good is it to claim that some people higher in authority can do bad things?
Usually, when an organization has corruption in it, people either try to get rid of it or they lose respect for that organization and authority. Normally they don't just throw up their hands and excuse the corruption, so I'm not sure why the church should be granted special treatment.

>Can you make some examples instead of throwing empty accusations?
Again, anyone making use of the lavish living accommodations and other amenities. For example, most former Popes.

>As you yourself admit, you just hate the Church. Doesn't matter what the Church does, you would always hate her.
Again, this is such a good attitude to have. Most people assume God will have them no matter what they do, thus they do not need to change at all. Wonderful theology there.

>Except he didn't
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/Argentina/

>Oh, so did he shield them or was he complicit in it?
He was complicit in evil by shielding the perpetrators. For someone accusing others of lacking reading comprehension, you sure do have a plank in your eye.

>Ok so what kind of justice do you want?
The accused are tried, and if found guilty go to jail. The church pays the standard compensation to the victims, and stops trying so desperately to block them from receiving justice. The church spends less time worrying about whether or not the remarried can receive a single bread wafer and more time worrying about whether continents of people can receive any bread at all.

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>>2344746
>Pretty ironic.

Considering that pedo abuses in Catholic churches occur at a much much lower rate than secular institutions that even only indicentally deal with minors, I would say we have a pretty good reason to go against secularism. You literally defeat your own argument.

>>2344733
>committing blaphemy against the Holy Spirit
don't do that anon

>>2344739
>John 14
what's your point? None of that refutes my arguments

>>2344748
>Nobody in heaven has ever heard from you, never.
whatever makes you sleep at night, heretic. Remember that you only have this life to repent.

>>2344768
>>2344772
>>2344777
>>2344781
>>2344782

>I google it
>https://amazingdiscoveries.org
>source: the indepentent
>click on link: redirects to homepage
>look for the mentioned article in the National Catholci reporter
>results: 0

nice fake news faggot

>I am in the real world. Where are you?
In the actual real world where truth matters

>Too many red pills yet?
Ah, the delusion of the heretics who work as tools of the devil, never ceases to amaze him

>>2344762
Yesterday defendants Pope Francis Bergoglio, Catholic Jesuit Superior General Adolfo Pachon and Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby were found guilty of rape, torture, murder and trafficking of children. Five judges of the International Common Law Court of Justice in Brussels determined that the crimes occurred as recently as 2010. Since last March over 48 eyewitnesses have come forward to testify before this ICLCJ Court about the defendants’ activities as members of the Ninth Circle Satanic Child Sacrifice Cult.

The Ninth Circle Satanic Cult was said to do child sacrifices at Roman Catholic cathedrals in Montreal, New York, Rome, Scotland, London, Carnarvon Castle in Wales, an undisclosed French Chateau in Holland and at Canadian Catholic and Anglican Indian residential schools in Kamloops, British Columbia and Brantford, Ontario Canada. The Ninth Circle Satanic Child Sacrifice Cult was believed to use privately owned forest groves in the US, Canada, France and Holland for their “Human Hunting Parties” for global elites including members of European royal families. Teens were said to be obtained by the mafia, then stripped naked, raped, hunted down and killed. The Chief Prosecutor stated. “The Catholic Church is the world’s largest corporation and appears to be in collusion with the mafia, governments, police and courts worldwide.”

Hail Satan?

>>2344787
I haven't. I'm a born again Christian.

You have, by placing your faith in the Whore of Babylon.

>>2344787
>nice fake news faggot

Maybe you just suck at googling, because I just googled all of them in the past however many minutes it took.

>>2344728
>Asking Jesus to pray to the Father = Asking God to pray to God. Does it make sense to you to do such a thing
Jesus did it, so yes, actually, it does make sense.

>The argument is that Arius was a heretic and the Nicene Creed refutes your heresies.
And the bible refutes your interpretation of the Nicene Creed.

>>2344787
Two adolescent women told the ICLCJ Court that Pope Francis raped them while participating in child sacrifices. Eight other eyewitnesses confirmed their allegations of being witness to rape and child sacrifices. The Ninth Circle Satanic Cult were said to take place during the Springs of 2009 and 2010 in rural Holland and Belgium.

Pope Francis was also found to be a perpetrator in satanic child sacrifice rites while acting as an Argentine priest and Bishop according to a sealed document obtained from the Vatican archives. A second record dated Dec. 25 1967 called the Magisterial Privilege was said to show that every new Pope was required to participate in Ninth Circle Satanic Cult ritual sacrifices of newborn children, including drinking their blood. The documents were presented to the ICLCJ Court by a prominent Vatican official and a former Vatican Curia employee.

Last month an investigator for the Irish Garda Police Force testified before the five judges and 27 jury members that marks on the bones of nearly 796 children found in an Irish Roman Catholic Nun septic tank indicated they had been ritually killed. The witness testified that forensic experts had confirmed the decapitation and dismemberment of the babies in the mass grave resembled the usual signs of ritualistic murder or child sacrifice.

Most evil institution on earth.

>>2344798
They changed the meaning of the word "catholic" from "universal" to "only our cult".

>>2344787
A BBC documentary exposed a fifty-year scandal of child trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain. Over 300,000 babies were stolen from their parents up to the 1990s. Mothers were told their babies died and were buried in mass graves. The Catholic Church was said to have made $20 billion dollars on the adoptions.

Another witness testified that they were present during Pope Francis’ meetings with the military Junta during Argentine’s 1970′s Dirty War. According to the witness, Pope Francis helped traffic 30,000 children of missing political prisoners into an international child exploitation ring run by an office at the Vatican.

I'm starting to think maybe you're a bit dim.

>>2344798
I'm not even Catholic but it's already been explained to you in this very thread that Jesus prayed while he was on Earth to show other people how they should live. Do you even read the thread you're posting in? And if not, why would you expect people to read what YOU write?

>>2344787
The 48 eyewitnesses identified their perpetrators as Catholic Popes Francis Bergoglio, John Paul II and Joseph Ratzinger; Anglican, United Church of Canada and Catholic Church officials including Cardinals and Catholic Jesuit Superior General Adolfo Pachon; the UK’s Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip, Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby and High Court Justice Judge Fulford; in the Netherlands: Dutch and Belgian cardinals and royals including Dutch Crown Prince Alfrink Bernhard, King Hendrick, consort to Queen Wilhelmina of Holland, Queen Beatrix, her father and vice-Roy, Prince Johan Friso and his wife Mabel Wisse Smit, former ministers, the top man of the Dutch army force and the under secretary of the Raad van State; officials of the Canadian, Australian, UK and US military and governments including the USA’s CIA, plus prominent government ministers, judges, politicians and businessmen of the US, Belgium, Holland, Canada, Australia, France, Ireland and the UK.

Arrest warrants on People v. Bergoglio et all were issued on July 19 2014. Court records would remain sealed for now according to yesterday’s ITCCS press release. The first ICLCJ Court regarded 50,000 missing Canadian native children and ended in Feb. 2013 guilty verdicts for 40 global elites including Queen Elizabeth.

Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip were convicted in the disappearance of ten native children from the Kamloops residential school in British Columbia on October 10 1964. Parents haven’t seen their children since. The litigation also appeared to result in Pope Ratzinger’s resignation. Evidence from those cases could be found in Kevin Annett’s “Hidden No Longer“.

Wow, the hits just keep on comin'.

>>2344786
>And the policies/attitudes towards abortion in Latin America became a problem during the Zika crisis. What does that have to do with jews and freemasons, by the way?
People whose kids contracted zika virus were 99.99% people who had sex outside marriage, who didn't apply prevention even knowing of the virus
>What does that have to do with jews and freemasons, by the way?
They experiment with the viruses and spread them

>sually, when an organization has corruption in it, people either try to get rid of it or they lose respect for that organization and authority. Normally they don't just throw up their hands and excuse the corruption, so I'm not sure why the church should be granted special treatment.
The organization is not corrupted though. When people act in a corrupted way, they go against the organization itself, which is against those things.
There's no excuse for the corruption, simply discenment and an avoidance of witch hunting (particularly ironic coming from a fedora btw). You elevate the members of the Church to standards that you don't use for anything else in the world. Fine. But the members that do bad go against the organization, getting rid of the organization for the actions of the people who harm the organization itself is just silly.

>Again, this is such a good attitude to have. Most people assume God will have them no matter what they do, thus they do not need to change at all. Wonderful theology there.
That's protestants. Protestants believe in sola fide. Catholics believe in sola gratia. We are saved by faith+works. Having an active attitude towards good is necessary for us to be accepted by God. Matthew 7:21. Only those that do the Will of the Father are in heaven, the others are rejected, even if they say "Lord, Lord".
>http://www.bishop-accountability.org/
looks like a completely unbiased and objective website right there.

>>2344813
>I'm not even Catholic but it's already been explained to you in this very thread that Jesus prayed while he was on Earth to show other people how they should live
>>2344536

>>2344813
Jesus prayed while he was on the earth to talk to the Father. I think you linked to the wrong poster.

>>2344817
>sola gratia.

Literally one of the other of the five solas that you just denigrated. And no, your church has nothing to do with grace.

>>2344786
>He was complicit in evil by shielding the perpetrators
He literally wasn't

>The accused are tried, and if found guilty go to jail.
Good
>The church pays the standard compensation to the victims, and stops trying so desperately to block them from receiving justice.
The compensation only comes after the person as been tried and condemned, so your point makes absolutely no sense
>The church spends less time worrying about whether or not the remarried can receive a single bread wafer and more time worrying about whether continents of people can receive any bread at all.
I would say they are both very important things in the eyes of God, and the Church spends plenty of time worrying about both. You simply think otherwise because of your bias and hatred.

>>2344825
The Roman Catholic church has nothing to do with God.

>>2344825
Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

>>2344817
>They experiment with the viruses and spread them
Which organizations?

>When people act in a corrupted way, they go against the organization itself, which is against those things
But when it happens, never point it out or expect the perpetrators to be held accountable?

> You elevate the members of the Church to standards that you don't use for anything else in the world.
Everyone is held to the same standard. Corrupt, exploitative institutions should be punished. The catholic church is not immune.

>Having an active attitude towards good is necessary for us to be accepted by God.
And yet if the church sins, "people are flawed get over it"?

>looks like a completely unbiased and objective website right there.
Similarly, we can dismiss any Catholic's opinion on the matter, because they have a pro-Catholic bias.

>>2344792
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddse0ORG5R0

>>2344793
>Maybe you just suck at googling, because I just googled all of them in the past however many minutes it took.
lol you literally copy-pasted the whole thing from a single website. Try harder heretic.

>>2344799
>that complete fan-fic without sources
>two women say
wtf I hate the Church now

>>2344810
>dailymail
anon pls

>>2344816
>Wow, the hits just keep on comin'.
Indeed, there are NEETS who spend their whole time writing this garbage with no

>>2344828
Matthew 7:21.

>>2344830
Except the Catholic Church isn't the Whore of Babylon

>>2344825
>He literally wasn't

I have cited court cases in this thread where he was.

>>2344852
You need a Youtuber to tell you what "born again" means? Sad!

There were at least 3 websites used. Lie harder.

You should hate the Whore of Babylon, but you don't because you are evil.

Yes, kill the messenger, ignore the message. That's what all you leftists do.

There are many courts who produce records of the cases against pedophiles, yes. And a metric shit ton of those pedophiles are Catholics.

I never told anyone to say "Lord, Lord", nor is that an encapsulation of my relationship with Jesus. Your relationship is with Semiramis, so you really have no basis to speak.

The catholic church is Mystery Babylon, yes. The whore, the harlot, is the city set upon seven hills ruling the kings of the earth. Yes.

You are in the Whore, and you love it there.

>>2337606

obviously not

this is bait

>>2344840
>But when it happens, never point it out or expect the perpetrators to be held accountable?
of course it should be pointed out and perpetrators be held accountable. But those people do those thing also attacking the Church, they don't do it because the Church wants them to do it (as your hatred would want you to believe)

>Everyone is held to the same standard. Corrupt, exploitative institutions should be punished. The catholic church is not immune.
Cool, but the Catholic Church =/= some rotten people inside. Do you understand that the Church is made of more than a billion people? Let that sink in. Even if there were 100.000 worldwide rotten catholics that would still be a percentage much lower than any other organization on earth. The difference is that with the Church one person is enough for everyone around the world throwing a fit because one person among a billion wasn't a good christian. No shit. Some people do bad things but that's not the fault of the Church, that's human nature. They should be punished but this has nothing to do with destroying the Church as you would want it.

>And yet if the church sins, "people are flawed get over it"?
The Church doesn't sin, members of the Church can sin because they are flawed and human. The Church would sin if it declared a false gospel, which is for example what Protestants do and why they go to hell if they don't repent.
I say that people are flawed and to get over it when you generalise and claim that the Church must be destroyed because not everyone in it is perfect. Of course some people inside it are bad and should be kicked out when found out, but they are not bad because of the Church, they are bad DESPITE the Church. Thus it is silly to blame the Church as a whole and not the single rotten members

>Similarly, we can dismiss any Catholic's opinion on the matter, because they have a pro-Catholic bias.
Only if they go against logic or facts. Which you are doing btw

>leave your orphan in a catholic orphanage because you think that they'll be treated well
>they get mistreated and once they die they're not even given a proper burial but get stuffed in a septic tank

>>2344867
it's damned good bait
look at all the fish

>>2344867
If you pray to something, have an idol to something, consider your prayers to that something heard, and consider your sacrifices to that something given, does that make the object of your worship a god, or not?

Because if not, there are literally zero pagans, and literally zero polytheists.

If it does, the Roman Catholic church is the largest pagan/polytheist organization outside of Hinduism.

>>2344870
>they don't do it because the Church wants them to do it

Yes, they do. They get dirt on them to keep them in line. Pictures of them raping and killing babies and drinking their blood. Blackmail photos. Assassinations.

Evil.

The evil is in the Vatican; John Paul II told the world that the smoke of hell permeates the halls of the Vatican, and that cardinals openly worship the "real presence" there, which is satan.

>>2344874
if I ask you to pray for me am I idolizing you?

>>2344871
>leave child in any orphanage
>acting as though it isn't hit or miss whether or not the child has a decent upbringing.

>>2344882
No, because I reside in the land of the living.

Before you say that the saints are alive in heaven, I will just ask you this.

Did God know that the saints were alive in heaven when he forbid attempting to speak with the dead?

>>2344867
I think it's bait giving the same autismos post anti-catholic rhetoric but it's an interesting discussion if you ignore all the bigoted shitpost.

File: 2a6.png (593KB, 1185x1029px)

593KB, 1185x1029px

>>2344866
>You need a Youtuber to tell you what "born again" means? Sad!
No but you do

I am sorry that you are so full of hatred in your heart and heresies in your head

>>2344855
>I have cited court cases in this thread where he was.
can you give me an actual respectable source? Then we'll talk

>>2344824
Sola gratia is another way of saying Faith + works. So no, you don't believe in the right version of sola gratia, you preach a false gospel

>>2344878
>Yes, they do.
No they don't
>They get dirt on them to keep them in line
No they don't
>Pictures of them raping and killing babies and drinking their blood. Blackmail photos. Assassinations.
Is this a dan brown book? Sounds like an intriguing novel
>Evil.
lol ok m8, whatever makes you sleep at night
>The evil is in the Vatican; John Paul II told the world that the smoke of hell permeates the halls of the Vatican, and that cardinals openly worship the "real presence" there, which is satan.
The smoke of satan that entered the vatican is lukewarmness and heresy, which is exactly what your doctrines of men stemming from protestantism are made of to the core. "The real presence" was always believed by Christians since the beginning. The gates of hell won't prevail on the Church and there's nothing you can do against it, stay mad.

>>2344886
they're not dead
what's the problem here?

>>2344891
My, how open minded of you. Ignore all the anti-Catholic posts, and focus only on, what, again? The lies of the papists?

>>2344895
All I can say is that you cannot stand before Jesus on judgment day and plead that none of his children warned you.

>>2344897
Did God know they were dead when he forbade sorcery and necromancy?

>>2344901
All I can say is that you should stop projecting

>>2344905
dude idk. I'm not a scholar. you tell me.

>>2344895
Tell me what being born again is, and how you accomplished it.

Tell me how the UK Independent is not a source of real news.

Tell me how sola gratia is another way of saying "grace plus works", when it literally means "by grace alone".

The church does not have a few bad apples; it is Babylon. They keep people in line via blackmail and assassination. Ever wonder why John Paul I died 31 days in office?

This is not a book; this is real life evil, and I have given you literally Vatican News from the official Vatican newspaper. Your own people, admitting how evil their own members are, but you? You minimize the entire problem, which is really only the tip of the iceberg.

I'll let reasonable readers decide if your version of "being lukewarm" (an admission you belong to the apostate church of Laodeceia, by the way) is the correct take on JPII's statement:

"Most frighteningly for [Pope] John Paul [II], he had come up against the irremovable presence of a malign strength in his own Vatican and in certain bishops’ chanceries. It was what knowledgeable Churchmen called the ‘superforce.’ Rumors, always difficult to verify, tied its installation to the beginning of Pope Paul VI’s reign in 1963. Indeed Paul had alluded somberly to ‘the smoke of Satan which has entered the Sanctuary’. . . an oblique reference to an enthronement ceremony by Satanists in the Vatican. Besides, the incidence of Satanic pedophilia—rites and practices— was already documented among certain bishops and priests as widely dispersed as Turin, in Italy, and South Carolina, in the United States. The cultic acts of Satanic pedophilia are considered by professionals to be the culmination of the Fallen Archangel’s rites."

>>2344901
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1-3uVxVUJQ

Matthew 7:21

>>2344909
kek

What an absurd rebuttal.

>>2344910
God is omniscient, so of course he knew that when his children died, they were alive in the afterlife. And yet he forbid any attempts to contact them.

No "saint" of the Roman Catholic church has ever heard one single prayer that was intended for their ears, nor has Mary heard from any of these papists. Just because they deify her to be a goddess does not mean that she is actually a goddess, and capable of hearing a billion voices at once.

>>2344925
Why not cite the verse? Afraid you cannot defend it?

Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will be saved, but only those who do the will of the Father.

And what is the will of the Father?

That none should perish, but all come to a saving knowledge of Christ Jesus; that all should believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, died for the sins of the world and rose on the third day.

This confession and belief is codified by Paul in Romans 10:9-10.

No papist can do it, because no papist is saved. No papist is born again.

>>2344928
if they're alive it's not necromancy

>>2344941
Their corpse is in the ground, rotting.

It's necromancy.

>>2344944
>Their corpse is in the ground, rotting.
t.Sadducee

>>2344944
>jesus wept

>>2344941
Deuteronomy 18:10-13

There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Papists confirmed as abominations before God.

>>2344921
>Tell me how the UK Independent is not a source of real news.
The Indepentend was cited as source, but when you follow the link it just redirects you to the homepage, there is no article.

>Tell me how sola gratia is another way of saying "grace plus works", when it literally means "by grace alone".
In summary, the grace of God transorms us and cleanses us, allowing us to be better people. For the grace to transform us, we have to constantly accept it and welcome it, thus striving to do good works and keep the Faith intact. Catholicism has an active view of living a christian life, whereas protestants a dead and passive one.
Not going to argue with you though, it's pointless. You have your mind set on heresy and nothing, literally nothing would make you change your mind.

>The church does not have a few bad apples; it is Babylon. They keep people in line via blackmail and assassination. Ever wonder why John Paul I died 31 days in office?
That's what you think, but it's unbibilical and heretical.

>This is not a book; this is real life evil, and I have given you literally Vatican News from the official Vatican newspaper. Your own people, admitting how evil their own members are, but you? You minimize the entire problem, which is really only the tip of the iceberg.
wrong

>Malachi martin quote
Literally a shill directly paid by jews to infiltrate the vatican. When he failed, he started accusing everyone of being a shill, in the typical fashion of judaic-satanic subversion. And as a good goy you swallow that like you swallowed the protestant reformation.

>>2344948
Jesus wept over Lazarus' dead body, yes.

Note Mary and Martha did not try to talk to Lazarus after Lazarus died. They buried him.

And "he stinketh".

File: protestants.png (71KB, 819x659px)

71KB, 819x659px

>>2344932
>>2344925
>And what is the will of the Father?
What the Church teaches (which includes the Bible and its correct interpretation)
>That none should perish, but all come to a saving knowledge of Christ Jesus
The one you call Christ Jesus is only your heretical version of him that doesn't please him. There is only one Truth and one Christ, not as many as the heads of sola scriptura protestants. Watch the video instead of claiming I am too lazy to answer in writing while ironically being too lazy to watch a video.

>No papist can do it, because no papist is saved. No papist is born again.
lol ok m8 whatever makes you sleep better at night. It won't matter how many Bible quotes I throw at you, because you have a preconceived heretical interpretation of those verses. Your heart and mind are hardened and cannot be moved by me, only by God himself (if you let him, but I am afraid you won't)

>>2344954
>Lazarus our friend sleepeth

>>2344928
>What an absurd rebuttal.
Truth is never absurd, anon

>>2344952
so you're on the article, it links to the source, and you're incapable of searching the source for the article.

I was right.

You people cannot research whether or not water is wet.

The grace of God has done nothing for you yet except allow you to survive.

You literally just said "by grace alone" means "grace plus works".

Your intellectual abilities are really quite suspect at this point in time.

Peter literally calls Rome "Babylon", in the bible.

Jesus literally calls your brand of paganism "Mystery Babylon", in the bible.

Martin is an ex-Jesuit whistleblower. That you cannot refute a single thing he wrote should bother you at some level.

>>2344960
No, the will of the Father is revealed in the bible.

Matthew 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Matthew 21
“But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go, work today in my vineyard.’ 29 He answered and said, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he regretted it and went. 30 Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, ‘I go, sir,’ but he did not go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?”

They said to Him, “The first.”

Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you.

John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

>oh no, bible verses! we can't understand them without the Magisterium telling us what they mean!

>>2344962
Aye, because Jesus was going to wake him up.

>>2344965
You've never met the truth, skippy.

>>2344434
David Foster Wallace, a smart guy, failed it twice and ended up becoming a Methodist.

>>2344968
>so you're on the article, it links to the source, and you're incapable of searching the source for the article.
maybe I am dumb and incapable, then post the source for the article here. If you say it's so easy to do it, I am sure you'll be able to link it here very easily. I clicked on the source and it doesn't link to it, so you really need to help him. I'll be waiting anon, thank you in advance for being so helpful.

>You literally just said "by grace alone" means "grace plus works".
I explained to you what it means. The grace involves us being active, doing works in order to fully and continuously accepting that grace that transforms us. Thus sola gratis translates in faith + works on our part

>Your intellectual abilities are really quite suspect at this point in time.
Now you are just being mean, my feelings can get hurt, you know? Be kind

>Peter literally calls Rome "Babylon", in the bible.
Pagan Rome, not Christian Rome. I thought we were the Whore, not we are Babylon directly? Jerusalem is called the Whore many times, and yet you claimed before that Rome is the whore of Babylon. Maybe you have a confused mind?

>Martin is an ex-Jesuit whistleblower. That you cannot refute a single thing he wrote should bother you at some level.
Martin was a jewish infiltrator, it's very well documented, look it up. If you believe him, you only believe jewish lies.

>>2344973
>They said to Him, “The first.”
But you did not go anon, you keep claiming that people should "get out of it"
>Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you.
Funny coming from a protestant considering your people came up with the prosperity gospel and proud themselves in the wealth-bringing "protestant work ethics", and how those lazy catholics never pay their taxes and are collectivists instead of individualists....really makes you think
>John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
If you are not part of the Church, follow the true Gospel and receive the sacraments you are not given to him, no matter how many times you delude yourself of the opposite

>>2344976
>You've never met the truth, skippy.
you really, really like projecting, don't you?

>>2344985
how? It's really not hard

>>2344987
>The grace involves us being active

As usual, not according to the bible.

Romans 4
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

So no, you didn't explain anything to me, you just solidified my understanding of your biblical illiteracy and your brainless regurgitation of what your priest shoved down your throat.

But when he came to himself he said, "How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough to spare, and I'm dying with hunger! I will get up and go to my father, and will tell him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight. I am no more worthy to be called your son. Make me as one of your hired servants.'" He arose, and came to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him, and was moved with compassion, and ran towards him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

—Luke 15:17–20, World English Bible

But he answered his father, "Behold, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed a commandment of yours, but you never gave me a goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this, your son, came, who has devoured your living with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him."

—Luke 15:29–30, World English Bible

"But it was appropriate to celebrate and be glad, for this, your brother, was dead, and is alive again. He was lost, and is found."

—Luke 15:32, World English Bible

>>2344993
Christians will get into heaven before the Jews. The Rapture is prior to the Second Coming. It's like you have zero eschatology skills.

The church is not the Roman Catholic Church.

The Roman Catholic Church claims to be that church, but the claims are lies. Petros is not the petra.

>>2345010
Let us quote the text again: "I say also unto thee [to Peter], That thou art Peter [petros, masculine gender], and upon this Rock [petra, feminine gender] I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). The text indicates clearly that the church of Christ is built on petra and not on Petros.

Now, who is this petra or rock on which Christ built His true church? Let the Holy Bible again give the answer. If the Bible gives the answer, we make no mistake in accepting it because the definition is authentic. "They drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock [petra, in the Greek] was Christ" (1 Corinthians 10:4). Here we have evidence that petra refers to Christ, and not to Peter, petros. Again we quote: "Jesus Christ Himself being the chief Cornerstone" (Ephesians 2:20) "He is the Rock, His work is perfect" (Deuteronomy 32:4; 2 Samuel 22:2-3) (2 Kings 22:2-3).

>>2345004
Yes I know exactly what verses protestants twist to claim their heresies as true.
Abraham did plenty of works, his faith wasn't passive like yours is.

>So no, you didn't explain anything to me, you just solidified my understanding of your biblical illiteracy and your brainless regurgitation of what your priest shoved down your throat.
lmao as I said, I am not going to enter a debate about Bible verses because it wouldn't convince you, you are a slave to an interpretation of Scripture that was born during the reformation and has nothing to do with what Christians always believed before that date. Basically it's a case of pot calling the kettle black.
Scripture by itself doesn't say anything without an interpretation, and your heretical one will always trump and explanation I give to you, because you'll judge it a papist interpretation and we'll never get anywhere. So no thanks, Matthew 10:14.

But that channel I gave you a video of, has a thourough guide to try and understand things to protestants, the videos are in order....try watching it, perhaps he'll miraculously get through to you. He also replies to comments if you would like to engage with him about something.

>>2345029

You don't believe the bible.

You believe the traditions of man.

There's nothing to twist in Romans 4:5.

It literally says that to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

You want to work, to put God in your debt.

You will fail.

Believe => accounted for righteousness.

If anyone twisted anything, it was you who twisted one of the five solas into some bizarre catholic works project.

sola gratia = by grace alone

But to you, sola gratia means "grace plus works".

>>2345029

The bible speaks for itself, and any with the Holy Spirit in them can comprehend it via the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

Whom you have never met, much as you have never met The Truth.

>>2345010
>The Rapture is prior to the Second Coming
lmao one of the most modern heresies. Let me ask you this anon: how many times will Christ come back?

>Petros is not the petra.
Actually it is. In the koinè greek of the Bible (as opposted to attic greek) the word is used to refer to rocks of the same size. At any rate it used Petros because Peter is a man, and since Christ was giving him a new name that would reflect his destiny (as that always happens when God changes someone's name), the Bible made it masculine. The Bible couldn't name him a feminine name, like the word "petra" is in Greek. You don't understand this because English is a pleb language without gendered nouns. At any rate the language in which Christ said those things irl was Aramaic, which has no gender differences, Christ therefore irl said the word "Kepha" twice and there was no distinction

>>2345043
Modern.

Paul speaks of it in the first century, in the first book he wrote.

1 Thessalonians 4
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

>Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Modern. Heresy.

Papists. Not even once.

First off, Matthew was written in Hebrew and translated into Greek. God is called the Rock in the bible 53 times.

It should come as no surprise to you that I agree you are in the Church of Peter, the heir to the Roman Empire.

And not the church of Jesus Christ's believers.

>>2345043
It's no surprise you cannot distinguish the rapture from the Second Coming; you're a pagan after all, and these things are spiritually discerned.

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>>2344997
He failed the period of inquiry.

>>2345043
If Jesus would have built His church on Peter, petros, He would have said: "Thou art Petros, and upon this Petros [or upon it] I will build My church," but such is not the case. He plainly says: "Thou art Petros, and upon this petra I will build My church.” Paul tells us that the petra is Christ. He also says, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 3:11). Peter is never designated by petra. Thus, Peter and Paul agree that Christ is the Rock; but the pope claims the title for himself. Which testimony should we accept? "Let God be true, but every man a liar" (Romans 3:4).

Long before Jesus was born He was considered the Rock. Isaiah declares: "Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation" (Isaiah 28:16). Peter applies this prophecy to Christ. He wrote: "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief Cornerstone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded" (1 Peter 2:6). David said: "Lead me to the Rock that is higher than I" (Psalm 61:2) ( Psalm 60:3).

>>2344422

How much money do you have? How little do you care for the truth?

>>2345037
>You don't believe the bible.
I do
>You believe the traditions of man.
Stop projecting
>There's nothing to twist in Romans 4:5.
There is, and protestants do it
>You want to work, to put God in your debt.
Nope, that's not what is implied in the Catholic doctrine
>You will fail.
Don't sin anon, not because of me please, it makes me feel bad afterwards
>If anyone twisted anything, it was you who twisted one of the five solas into some bizarre catholic works project.
The solas are themselves a distortion of Catholic dogma, so right back at you, pal
>sola gratia = by grace alone
Yes, of course, that is what it means. I have already explained though why that implies that you need, from your part, to have faith + works to be saved.
>But to you, sola gratia means "grace plus works".
No. Sola gratia includes faith + works. Faith + works = grace. Sola gratia.

>>2345041
>and any with the Holy Spirit in them can comprehend it via the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.
Anyone can claim to have the Holy Spirit and that his interpretation is the correct one. You are simply delusional, I am sorry but that's the truth. The Church is the longest organization on earth, it's literally fulfilling the role of the Church on earth while you spend your time accusing it of being the whore of babylon. You keep making prophecies that the world will end in the current year while Catholic worry about their souls. I am sorry but you are completely mistaken, anon

>>2345055
>Papists. Not even once.
Stop deflecting and answer my question. How many times will Christ come back?

>First off, Matthew was written in Hebrew and translated into Greek.
And? Still Christ would have speaken those words in Aramaic irl, which would further highlight that Kephas refers to Peter in that sentence. Christ is clear as day there, but you have to twist his words bend them to your heresies. Classic case of eisegesis.

>>2345057
Answer me: how many times will Christ come back?

>>2345067
>No. Sola gratia includes faith + works. Faith + works = grace. Sola gratia.

Maybe one day you will realize how foolish you are.

>>2345067
>Stop deflecting and answer my question. How many times will Christ come back?

Your question is nonsense and reveals only that you cannot distinguish between the rapture Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians above and the Second Coming after Armageddon.

Rapture: Meet Jesus in the air.

Second Coming: Jesus sets foot on the Mount of Olives 7 years after the Rapture.

Don't worry about the Rapture; it's not for you.

>>2345063
>"Thou art Petros, and upon this Petros [or upon it] I will build My church,"
Which is literally what he said
>He plainly says: "Thou art Petros, and upon this petra I will build My church
As I have already explained, it's the same thing. Petros as opposed to petra is only used because in greek they use gendered nouns, therefore saying "Thou art Petra" would have been like saying "Thou art Jessica". Do you think Christ would give someone a feminine name even if they are a man?

Stop parroting what your false teachers tell you and open your eyes

>>2345076

You are saying that Jesus was incapable of communicating clearly that Peter is the foundation of the church.

That Jesus did not say "I shall name you Petros, and upon you, Petros, will I build my church."

Your concept of God is a poor communicator then, isn't it.

>>2345076
If the church was built on Peter then Peter would be the head of the church. However, Peter was not the head of the church in his day. Instead of having the disciples, apostles, and other believers call Peter pope, or Father Peter, or Holy Father Peter, Jesus said: "Be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.... But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant" (Matthew 23:8‑11). "Call no man your father," could not refer to an earthly parent, but to the spiritual fathers. Jesus recommended our paying full respect to earthly parents when He quoted the commandment: "Honor thy father and thy mother" (Mark 7:10).

>>2345076
If Jesus delegated Peter as the head of the church, why did the other disciples quarrel among themselves as to who would be the greatest (Luke 9:46)? If this decision had already been made by Christ, why should the others fret about it? The other disciples would have submitted to the wish of their Master. Thus it seems evident that no such appointment had been made by Jesus. Neither Peter nor any of his successors were heads of the true church. Paul explains this when he says: “The head of every man is Christ” (1 Cor. 11:3). God "gave Him to be the head over all things to the church" (Ephesians 1:22). This explains that Jesus is the head of every person and also of the church. We are responsible to the head, which is Christ, and not to men who try to circumvent the work of Christ and take His place. Christ is the head of every person, and we are responsible to Him as individuals.

There is not a trace of evidence in the Bible that Peter was a pope. What would you think of historians who would write accounts of Abraham Lincoln, yet in not a single instance mention his title as President of the United States of America? Could you imagine such an oversight? If Peter had borne some such title as "pope," don't you think that at least one inspired writer would have mentioned it? Peter wrote two epistles, but he does not use the title of pope in either. Can you imagine a pope today writing two letters to the church and forgetting his title? Peter could have mentioned it on the Day of Pentecost when he delivered that stirring sermon (Acts 2), but he did not do so. The church in the days of the apostles did not recognize Peter as pope or the head of the church. Neither does the true church today.

>>2345071
>Maybe one day you will realize how foolish you are.
I see that you ran out of arguments. I am sorry you cannot have logic discussions without mindlessly parroting your traditions of men. And again, stop sinning, which you just did by calling me a fool. It's ok if you do if on your own but I don't like when people sin because of their interactions with me.

>>2345075
>Rapture: Meet Jesus in the air.
>Second Coming: Jesus sets foot on the Mount of Olives 7 years after the Rapture.
Wait, so Jesus comes back, but then 7 years later he comes back again....what does he do in the meanwhile? Does he leave and then come back 7 years later? Its that what you believe?

>>2345077
>You are saying that Jesus was incapable of communicating clearly that Peter is the foundation of the church.
He communicated it clearly, it's you who refuse to read the words for what they clearly say and instead make eisegesis
>That Jesus did not say "I shall name you Petros, and upon you, Petros, will I build my church."
That is literally what he says. I have already explained why. But you simply keep being deaf and ignoring the explanation. See? this is what I meant when I said it's useless to discuss Bible verses with you

>>2345043
In the case of petros vs. petra, the change is not an inflection. Petros and petra are two different words in Greek. They are similar because they are cognates (just as "president" and "presider" are cognates in English but are nonetheless two different words with different, though related, meanings). Because they are two different words, the inflection (change of form) of petros and petra is not what is at issue here. The basic meanings of the terms is.

>>2345083
It's called the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.

Again, don't worry about it, because it's not for you.

>>2345083
>That is literally what he says

It is literally not what he says, because of all of the quotes herein where Petros is NOT the petra.

Jesus is the Rock.

If you don't know that, you don't know Jesus.

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>>2345079
I see that you keep copy-pasting because you don't have a thought of your own. Peter is always called first by name among the disciples in the Bible. Even the Orthodox believe that the seat of Peter had primacy. St.Irenaeus in 200AD in his writings even lists the first seven people holding office in Rome after Peter, thus making understood the importance of the bishop of Rome.

Christ is the foundational stone, of course, but the Church needs a vicar of Christ that represents him physically, visibly on earth. Upon the successors of Peter is bestowed the role to keep those features of the Church intact

Matthew 16:18 is very clear, the gates of hell will not prevail, and the Catholic Church is the only one that can claim all the characters of the Church as Christ described it, without ever failing to those gates. That's why all the heretics try to claim the opposite, because they know they didn't exist until they rebelled (under guidance of demonic spirit) and went against the Church of Christ. Therefore they project and call the Church a harlot, because they themselves are one.

>>2345090
>In the case of petros vs. petra, the change is not an inflection. Petros and petra are two different words in Greek
Wrong, they are different in attic greek, but not in koinè Greek, which is the language used in the Bible. In koinè Greek the two words have no different meaning.
>Because they are two different words, the inflection (change of form) of petros and petra is not what is at issue here. The basic meanings of the terms is.
cool, because they have the same meaning, glad we agree

>>2345095
So does Jesus come back twice? Yes or no? It's a simple question, if you can't answer it straight I'll accept your defeat anon, it's ok

>>2345100
Petros = Petra

No, veneration is not the same thing as worship.

The Trinity is also not polytheistic, since it is one god. One may as well say saying 'God is everywhere' is polytheism. Then again, believing God is confined in space is a huge issue in Judaism and Islam.

If God is not confined in space, God is not confined in form or person.
>>2337672
Shouldn't the Vicar of Christ be beautiful? In Islam, the Quran is recited as music, and is written beautifully.
>>2337765
Saints are our connection to an incomprehensible God. They are not deified, or even divine, they are merely closer to God.
>>2338183
Belief in other gods is unbiblical, because other gods are mere idols. Even if they have no association with an actual idol, they are no better than an idol compared to God. They're impotent as statues.

Iconoclasts destroyed art and architecture to show the polytheists that their gods had no power.
>>2344746
Child molestation happens more often in schools and the like. Secular schools.

>>2345110
>St.Irenaeus in 200AD
Wasnt he the guy who tried to give himself a sex-change?

>>2345110
So you're telling me that the people who usurped power over others based on Petros being the petra supported the idea that Petros is the petra.

Wow. Who would have thought that possible?

Jesus is the Rock. Oh, but Jesus can't be the Rock anymore because he's dead. So those very same people have to vote on who is going to be God on earth.

It's almost as though they, like you, have absolutely no understanding of the role of the Holy Spirit of God.

Can you show me in the bible where Peter passes off this authority? Why, of course not.

Can you show me in the bible where Peter passes off these keys to heaven, that he already used twice, twice being the maximum number of uses for said keys? Why of course not.

But in the tradition of the Nicolaitans, the men who build hierarchies to interpose themselves between man and God, why, they have all sorts of traditions to justify this!

Do you even know what gates do? They keep people in, and they keep people out.

Do you think the christian church is going to invade hell? Do you even understand that Jesus made hell?

No, this is really quite simple. Christians will not go to hell.

Catholics will, though, because their faith is in their church.

As no Christian has ever gone to hell, your claim is absurd.

The man went out of his way to say in koine greek they are two entirely separate words.

Maybe read the posts? Maybe?

>>2345090
btw an gender inflection can only be of the same word, not of two separate words with different meaning. By definition.

>>2345128
No, that's Origen, and it wasn't a sex-change, simply castrating himself to avoid sins of the flesh

>>2345111
Your question is idiotic as ever. And answered.

Christians meet Jesus in the air. 1 Thes. 4

Jesus 7 years later sets foot on the Mt. of Olives. Zech. 14:4

>Derp does Jesus come back twice? Herp.

>>2345112

Petros = Petros, a masculine word, a man's name.

petra = petra, a feminine word, meaning rock or cliff.

>>2345130

So two different words can never have one be masculine, and the other be feminine, ever.

Good to know.

>>2344932
>I decide who is saved!

>>2345146
You're the Father?

I quite doubt that.

>>2345149
Learn to read.

>>2345146
Oh, I see your confusion.

If a man's highest and best identity is as a papist, he is by definition not a born again Christian.

Only born again Christians are saved in this age of the church.

Church again not being the Roman Catholic church, and virtually excluding it from membership.

But yes, it's pretty obvious who's saved and who isn't.

>>2345150
Learn patience. >>2345153

>>2345129
>Jesus is the Rock. Oh, but Jesus can't be the Rock anymore because he's dead
I didn't say that
>So those very same people have to vote on who is going to be God on earth.
See? I tell you things and you keep hearing what you want to hear. What's even the point of having discussions like this? Your heart and mind are hardened and you don't let truth come through.
>Can you show me in the bible
sola scriptura is an invention and was never believe by any Church Father, so for me that sentence is completely meaningless.
The Scripture get their authority because they are emanated by the Church, not the opposite. Church predates Scriptures and gives them legitimacy, not the opposite.
>But in the tradition of the Nicolaitans
The description of the Nicolaitans in literally no way resembles Catholic traditions and dogmas. Try again. Maybe you should stop listening to the traditions of men created since the 1500s m8.
>Do you even know what gates do? They keep people in, and they keep people out.
Are you going to claim "no salvation outside the Church" is bad when you literally claimed many times in the thread Catholics have to "come out of her"??? See, even under inspiration of demonic spirits certain truths come to light. Whether it is in and out, you do need to on one side of the fence, even if you believe it's the other one.
>Catholics will, though, because their faith is in their church.
My faith is in Christ, and the Church is the means for me to do his Will and keep that Faith intact, as he wants it.
>The man went out of his way to say in koine greek they are two entirely separate words.
No, he didn't. As I have already said, in koinè greek the two words refer to the same things, have the same meaning in general. The difference in gender reflects the fact that Peter is a man and therefore when addressing him the name is gendered male. Can you imagine if this wasn't done? People could claim Christ believes that gender is a social construct!

>>2345135
So Christ is
1) in the air
2) on the Mt.of Olives, 7 years later

What does he do in the meanwhile? Does he stay sill in the air for 7 years? Or does he leave and then come back?

>>2345144
>So two different words can never have one be masculine, and the other be feminine, ever.
Wrong. You only believe that because English has no gendered nouns, but in every other language that's very clear. A same word can have masculine and feminine when referring to people or object that are male or female (or in the language are attributed the female or male gender). Peter was a man, therefore when he described as a rock, the term rock is declinated in the masculine form. Not because the word in the feminine and masculine form has different meaning.

>>2345157
>We need a Vicar because Jesus is gone.
False.

>The proto-catholics are as evil as catholics today.
Obviously.

>sola doesn't mean solely.
By your definition, no.

>the church makes the scriptures holy
Absolute blasphemy.

>Nicolaitans with clergy over laity are nothing like catholics with clergy over laity.
You don't say.

>there's no salvation outside of my particular group.
Yes, cultist, that's what cults say to each other.

>I have been defending the catholic church and said nothing about Jesus ever.
Yes, I've noticed. People can talk about Catholics or Jesus, but not both.

>Petros and petra are kind of the same, therefore the church of Peter reigns over the earth.
Which is why you are a papist and not a born again Christian. In fact, you have no idea how to become a born again Christian.

What had Peter just said?

"You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God."

So what is the foundation? Peter? Or the Christ, the Son of the Living God?

>>2345164
Innumerable things.

Please learn to detect sarcasm better.

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>>2345129
Listen to one of the people that even the reformers used to make their theology

>>2345172
Hmmmm, listen to the traditions of men, and proto-catholics, instead of approaching the throne of God Himself, sitting in God's lap, and calling him daddy.

Pass.

>>2345176
Oh, hey, better give you some bible verses so you know what I'm talking about, since you have absolutely no idea what having a relationship with the living God is actually like.

Oh, wait, you aren't able to understand bible verses either. Hmmmmm.....

Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

>>2345167
>>We need a Vicar because Jesus is gone.
lol not what I said at all
>>The proto-catholics are as evil as catholics today.
lol nice fan-fic history you got there
>Absolute blasphemy.
Nope, simply what is true, see >>2345172
>>Nicolaitans with clergy over laity are nothing like catholics with clergy over laity.
Lmao you cherrypicked one mentioned thing about them and disregarded all the rest. I guess Jesus was a Nicolaitian because he chose Apostles instead of making everyone in Israel his apostle. Remember how he breathed on them? He didn't do it for everyone. But why do I even bother? You don't care about the truth
>>Petros and petra are kind of the same, therefore the church of Peter reigns over the earth.
lol not what I said at all. I simply said that because of apostolic succession, and the fact that the Church has to be visible and continuous until the end of times, and because the petrine seat is Biblical, therefore where the seat of Peter is, so is the Church of Christ on earth. It's literally a way for you to understand which one is the true Church, but instead you use it to avoid it and even blaspheme the work of Christ which the Church itself is a manifestation of.

>So what is the foundation? Peter? Or the Christ, the Son of the Living God?
I have already said that Christ being the foundation of Faith does not contradict Peter being the rock upon which the Church is built, I don't really know what else you want me to say.

>>2345168
???

>>2345176
>Hmmmm, listen to the traditions of men
I don't, if I did I would be a protestant

>>2345189
>The Whore of Babylon can make things holy.

Lost. No compass and lost. Many such cases. Sad!

>>2345168
>Innumerable things.
So how many times does Christ come back?
You still refuse to answer. Why is that?

>>2345195
Good thing then that the Catholic Church is not the whore of babylon

>>2345196

When did you stop beating your girlfriend?

>>2345199
>As though there were another candidate, a city set upon 7 hills ruling over the kings of the earth in 95 AD.

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>>2337606
Yea, I never understood this. Isn't it against the commandments?

>>2345219
Yes, it is.

Which is why the Catholic church hid the commandment against idolatry and split the commandment against covetousness into two, to preserve having 10 commandments.

They got caught, naturally, and had to restore the 10 commandments as written, but this should show any reasonable outsider that there is literally nothing sacred to the Roman Catholic church, not even the tablets God himself wrote the 10 commandments on with his own finger.

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>>2345210
>When did you stop beating your girlfriend?
you keep avoinding answering, anon. I'll take that as an admission of defeat.

>>2345210
>>As though there were another candidate, a city set upon 7 hills ruling over the kings of the earth in 95 AD.
The vatican isn't on seven hills, it's on one hill that isn't part of the classic seven hills of Rome. So even assuming Vatican = Rome (which today clearly isn't the case) there would be 8 hills and not 7

>>2345219
saints are not worshipped

>>2345244
Then why do Mexicans pray to Guadalupe?

>>2345239
I told you that Jesus is coming back in the air to gather all the living and dead saints to himself, to take to heaven; and

I told you Jesus is coming back 7 years later to end Armageddon and establish his kingdom.

You, being completely and utterly retarded, cannot take that as an answer for some reason. Likely because you lack all spiritual discernment.

Yeah, that's it.

Rome is the city built on 7 hills that rules over the kings of the earth, and causes them to commit fornication with her. The Vatican is literally built on a cemetery, the ruins of the temple of Diana, aka Semiramis, the woman you call Mary. That the Whore of Babylon has her own apartment next to Babylon, Rome, shouldn't be a wonder to anyone. The bishop of Rome is the pope, and lives in the Vatican.

It's not 8 hills that Rome is built upon, but 7.

You are balls deep in the Whore of Babylon, and you will go to hell for it.

>>2345244
Idols, sacrifices, prayers to, good luck charms, their own temples, yeah, they're worshiped.

Most catholic saints are in hell, obviously.

>>2345256
>I told you that Jesus is coming back in the air to gather all the living and dead saints to himself, to take to heaven; and
>I told you Jesus is coming back 7 years later to end Armageddon and establish his kingdom.
so he's coming back twice. Can you point me where in the Bible it talks about the third coming of Christ? Thanks

>Rome is the city built on 7 hills that rules over the kings of the earth, and causes them to commit fornication with her. The Vatican is literally built on a cemetery, the ruins of the temple of Diana, aka Semiramis, the woman you call Mary.
All wrong. Stop reading meme websites and get some cultures.
>That the Whore of Babylon has her own apartment next to Babylon, Rome, shouldn't be a wonder to anyone. The bishop of Rome is the pope, and lives in the Vatican.
so the italian government is babylon?

>>2345256
>Idols, sacrifices, prayers to, good luck charms, their own temples, yeah, they're worshiped.
nope. Doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, it doesn't make it true
>Most catholic saints are in hell, obviously.
eh, they are saints, so I am sure they don't mind if you talk bad of them, but God will hold you accountable

>>2345153
>Only born again Christians are saved in this age of the church
And you decide this? Or who?
>But yes, it's pretty obvious who's saved and who isn't.
According to you?
>>2345155
Learn humility. You're damning your brothers when you have absolutely no right, capacity, or reason to do so.

>>2345332
>Can you point me where in the Bible it talks about the third coming of Christ?

No.

1 Peter 5:13 She who is in Babylon, elect together with you, greets you; and so does Mark my son.

Don't you worship Peter?

God will not hold me accountable for telling papists that they are following an antichrist into hell, no.

He would hold me accountable for holding my tongue.

You have no alternative subject who could possibly be the harlot, the city built upon seven hills, who rules over the kings of the earth and causes them to commit fornication with her.

You have hundreds of depictions of popes putting crowns on kings.

You have hundreds of papal bulls where popes tell kings what to do, when to go to war, etc.

Face it. You like being evil. You like being in an evil institution.

You just don't like being called out on it.

>>2345705
>And you decide this? Or who?

this guy named Jesus, whom you have never met.

John 3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” ...

I don't damn anybody.

I'm telling the damned that they're damned, and they damned well better listen, repent, and be saved.

Catholics are not my brothers. At all. In any sense of the word. Ever. They'll all be forgotten by all of us in heaven.

>I'll post later when he's gone! That's what I'll do!

>>2337671
The demons believe in one God, and tremble.

>>2337672
Because he's the stand-in for the Roman emperor, not Jesus.

>>2345731
You don't have that right. Get out head out of your ass.

>I'll post later when he's gone! That's what I'll do!
Some of us aren't NEETs

>>2337685
All Marian apparitions are demonic.

>>2345742
I have the duty. And the right. And the obligation.

Repent, or stay damned.

>>2345749
No you don't.
>people are damned for [linguistic reasons]
Get your head out of your ass.

>>2345723
>No
So your belief is unbiblical, good to know, you admitted yourself you're a heretic
>Don't you worship Peter?
I don't worship Peter
>God will not hold me accountable for telling papists that they are following an antichrist into hell, no.
He will, because the Catholic Church is the Church he founded
>You have no alternative subject who could possibly be the harlot, the city built upon seven hills, who rules over the kings of the earth and causes them to commit fornication with her.
There's plenty of alternatives actually, you simply don't understand the book of revelation, that's all.
>Face it. You like being evil. You like being in an evil institution.
Stop projecting anon
>You just don't like being called out on it.
I like when people say the truth, which you obviously don't have

>>2345742

Revelation 17
And on her forehead a name was written:

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

“Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”

And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

Revelation 18
And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

>>2345751
People are damned once they reach their age of accountability and deny the only means of salvation known to mankind, that narrow path that is Christ Jesus, as exercised in Romans 10:9-10.

>>2345754
>I don't worship Peter
kek

You literally call his successor "God on earth".

Jesus did not found the Roman Catholic church; he didn't even write a letter to in in the Revelation. Constantine did. Constantine the pagan, the heretic, the sun worshiper. That's the church you're in, pagan.

So, zero alternatives to who the Whore of Babylon is, and what Mystery Babylon is, and why Rome is called Babylon by Peter.

But you're real sure I'm not right, and you are.

kek

You keep saying "stop projecting" as though there were any circumstances on earth where I would want to be like you.

There are none.

>>2345758
Nice meme.
>>2345760
>people i dont like aren't Christian because i said so

>>2345758
Revelation 17

“Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

The seven hills are:
Aventine Hill (Latin, Aventinus; Italian, Aventino)
Caelian Hill (Cælius, Celio)
Capitoline Hill (Capitolinus, Campidoglio)
Esquiline Hill (Esquilinus, Esquilino)
Palatine Hill (Palatinus, Palatino)
Quirinal Hill (Quirinalis, Quirinale)
Viminal Hill (Viminalis, Viminale)

The modern Catholic Church is based on idolatry and blasphemy. The current pope is a false teacher who gives false counsel in Christ's name. He is an antichrist like many of the previous popes. The modern Catholic Church is heathenistic by nature.

>>2345771

It's called "bible verses". You should look into them sometime. You're in them. You and your Whore of a church that worships "the Queen of Heaven" and "Mother of God".

Babylon.

People who are not born again (upon reaching their own age of accountability) are not saved because Jesus says so.

You should spend some time looking into this "Jesus" fellow.

Turns out he's not dead, like your church portrays him everywhere at all times on everything.

>>2345780
Amen.

And immune to the truth, I would add.

>>2345742

Are you serious? If you're not on autismbux I'll eat a bug.

>>2345782
>worship
>People who are not born again (upon reaching their own age of accountability) are not saved because Jesus says so.
Who says you are 'born again'? Linguistic nonsense, get your head out of your ass. All I hear in your posts is arrogance and impotent rage.

>>2345742
>You don't have that right. Get out head out of your ass.

That's strange, what you condemn, Jesus commends. How can you explain that?

Revelation 2
“I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary.

>>2345799
the Holy Spirit dwelling within me says so.

Again, nothing you would know about.

>>2345799
>Linguistic nonsense

The bible. Linguistic nonsense. What else can I expect from a papist?

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

>>2345803
>people i dont like are evil
>>2345805
I didn't realize the Holy Spirit made one behave like an angry 12-year-old.
>>2345809
No, identifying yourself as 'born again' by word alone is linguistic nonsense.

>>2338183
Polytheism IS against the Bible. The Jews are supposed to worship YHVH. You really think a jealous monotheistic god like Yahweh is going to allow his followers to worship something like Baal, Moloch, or any other gods without batting an eyelash?

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>>2345767
>You literally call his successor "God on earth".
uh? Except we don't. Vicar of Christ implies by itself that the Pope is simply a representative, the head of the Church is Christ. The actual title of the Pope is "servant of the servants of God", not "god on earth". Try again m8
>Jesus did not found the Roman Catholic church
wrong
> he didn't even write a letter to in in the Revelation
lol that's not how you are supposed to read Revelation. See? You can't read the Bible, you don't understand it
>Constantine did. Constantine the pagan, the heretic, the sun worshiper. That's the church you're in, pagan.
lol no Constantine has nothing to do with it. This is an old protestant meme, there's plenty of church fathers from much earlier than 313 AD that prove the existence of the Catholic Church, so you evangelicals are absolutely delusional.
>So, zero alternatives to who the Whore of Babylon is, and what Mystery Babylon is, and why Rome is called Babylon by Peter.
You are not supposed to know these things because they are prophecy, and God clearly tells us it's not our call to ponder about these things. If I had to guess, I would say that Babylon is the United States, or could be in general usury capitalism as it's been spread all over the world. The Whore of Babylon is most likely the jewish people.
But that's just a guess, in the end no one can know for sure. What's sure though is that the Catholic Church is not it.
>You keep saying "stop projecting" as though there were any circumstances on earth where I would want to be like you.
This has nothing to do with me, and a lot with you who needs to slander and call otherss the devil to justify being part of a heretical cult with a shit-tier theology

>>2345805
>the Holy Spirit dwelling within me says so.
The Holy Spirit dwelling within me says you don't have the Holy Spirit

>>2345821
Anon has a personal grudge against you so you're wrong!

I don't want to clean my room!

>>2345812
Kek

You really just can't help yourself, can you.

People are evil whether I like them or not.

He doesn't.

It's fully descriptive and without doubt the best way to call yourself a Christian and mean it.

did you miss the part where Jesus said you MUST be born again in the Spirit? Maybe read John 3.

John is a book in the bible.

3 is the third chapter.

The bible is that book on your shelf covered in dust.

>>2345817

I don't need to try at all.

Pope Pius V blasphemed, “The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth.”

Pope Innocent III said “We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God.”

Pope Leo XIII declared, “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.”

Pope Boniface VIII said “We declare, assert, define and pronounce to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every creature altogether necessary for salvation… I have the authority of the King of Kings. I am all in all, and above all, so that God Himself and I, the Vicar of Christ, have but one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do. What therefore, can you make of me but God?”

It's like you know nothing about your own cult.

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>>2345828
>reddit spacing
>born again
pick one and only one

>>2345817
>lol no Constantine has nothing to do with it.

The Christian Church for the first three hundred years remained somewhat pure and faithful to the Word of God, but after the pseudo-conversion of Constantine, who for political expedience declared Christianity the state religion, thousands of pagans were admitted to the church by baptism alone with out true conversion. They brought with them pagan rites which they boldly introduced into the church with Christian terminology, thus corrupting the primitive faith. Even the noted Catholic prelate and theologian, Cardinal Newman, tells us that Constantine introduced many things of pagan origin: "We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own...The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church." An Essay On The Development Of Christian Doctrine, pp. 359, 360. This unholy alliance also allowed the continuance of the pagan custom of eating and drinking the literal flesh and literal blood of their god. This is actually how transubstantiation entered the professing church.