Book of Revelations - Why is it in the Bible?

first, its revelation not revelations

and there was a great deal of debate over the canonization process, many works that were excluded and deemed apocryphal were done so over the objections of members of the clergy who wanted them included, and vice versa for many canonized works, most notably Revelation. Even after canon lists started coming out many churches didn't include it and to this day many still don't.

>>2332685
It's still surprising that a book that attracted so much criticism and dissent from even the Church doctors/fathers would still be included in the Bible in the end.

>>2332562
Because it is from God

>>2332562
>The Gospel of Peter
Literally a Gnostic gospel

>>2332562
If you think it's literal and not obvious allegory then you are retarded

>>2333434
It is not known with any certainty if the Gospel of Peter is gnostic: it was merely being accused of being gnostic by some Church authorities, due to its strange content. And, really, if you've read it, there's nothing particularly gnostic about it - even the giant, anthro cross doesn't seem gnostic.

>>2333438
It has nothing to do whether it is literal or allegory, cretin.

>>2332562
Because it makes a hell of a last chapter. Think about it, you've got all these stories about Jesus and you're convinced, you think "Well ok then, this Jesus fellow seems alright, I'll follow him, but whats the endgame?". The Book of Revelation is like an epilogue, a little preview of what is to come. It's the stinger to the Bible.

>>2332562
iirc at one of the scriptural councils back in the day it was kept in only because they thought it was written by the apostle john, but they were wrong

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BABYLON IS FALLEN

It's just a treatise on the corruption of the Roman Empire

>>2334740
>there is ample evidence that it was written by John the apostle. The very fact that the author of the apocalypse simply calls himself John is a dead giveaway that he was well known throughout the churches in Asia Minor. Additionally, the fingerprints of John the apostle are all over the apocalypse! One need only open their eyes and ears to apprehend the clues. For example, John, and John alone, identifies Jesus as the Word, or Logos (John 1:1, 14; Revelation 19:13). Likewise, John alone identifies Jesus as the true witness (John 5:31–47; 8:14–18; Revelation 2:13; 3:14), and it is John who most exploits the Mosaic requirement of two witnesses (John 8:12–30; Revelation 11:1–12). Added to this, there is undeniable commonality in the symbolic use of the number seven that transcends its literal meaning. It is also noteworthy that like the gospel of John, Revelation is a literary masterpiece.

>>2332562
Are you me? I was thinking about the same thing.

>>2333446
This, the Book of Revelation is hella tight.

>>2332562
Because it's fucking cool
It's literally an acid trip, the writer is tripping balls the entire way through

Cherry picking: the belief

>>2333445
I think your counfused about why certain books didn't make the cut. It wasn't so much that these gospels were "strange" or "weird" as opposed to the fact that they just weren't deemed theologically to be entirely Christian.

>>2332685
>Even after canon lists started coming out many churches didn't include it and to this day many still don't.

Um what? No form of Christianity leaves it out.

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>>2332562
It's certainly out of character with the rest of the NT, but there's some OT on par with it, including Ezekiel. Revelation is largely a reboot of an OT book.

Though fundamentalists would of course disagree, there's pretty obviously some political code in there, and if you can decipher it, I suppose it is a valuable historical reference aso the nature of the times. Revelations, most likely, describes a series of events that have already passed, through various national and factional symbolism, and a lot of folks have made good cases as to the meaning of these.

There are, however, a lot of less fantastical books, some of which are really key to the continuity of the core story (such as everything surrounding Enoch and where the fuck all the folks Caine and Lilith were fucking came from), but there were philosophical and political concerns surrounding those, causing inconsistency in the desired narration to boot, so they were tossed out.

It's a conglomeration of some old stories, every word of which is hotly debated, so there's bound to be some holes. Most of these are still out there, perhaps based in less well maintained sources, though a few are likely forever lost of time - but there's always the occasional set of Dead Sea Scrolls.

>>2335602
http://www.bible-researcher.com/antilegomena.html

>>2335618
St.Paul talks about some pretty mystical things in his letters, as well as the esoteric gospel of john.

Also we should note that certain themes in revelations such as the White Horse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_horse_(mythology)

transcend religious paradigms. If you take a more perennial traditionalist approach to religion its clear that revelations is at least partially referring to certain mystical prophecies.

Better an excess of crap than a lack of crap:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

Makes for a more interesting story. Also kills about a third of that list of 5,000 biblical contradictions that folks keep posting that image of, although I'm sure it also generates several more.

I'm less upset about the crazy stuff they chose to include, and more perturbed at all the valuable stuff they tossed out for what often seemed largely contrived and emotionally or politically driven reasons.

On the other hand, if the Cathars had their way, rather than been genocided, Christianity today wouldn't have included the Old Testament, or Revelation, and that might have made for a much more sane, less anachronistic Christianity, less cemented in stuff written exclusively by and for ancient Hebrews. Still, I'd be pissed if they didn't at least make an effort to preserve all those texts as a valuable backdrop, if non-canon.

>>2335203
No. Even back in the 3rd century, there were already doubts that John the Disciple had truly written Revelation. The styles of writing are too different: the Gospel uses an elegant Greek style, whereas the Book of Revelation uses an entirely different style, complete with differing sets of words for identical objects that are never used in the Gospel of John.

Stop lying.

Also, the Gospel of John was likely not even written by the disciple John, either: it's the latest of the canonical Gospels, being written at the very least some 70 years after the ministry of Jesus.

>>2335667
The thing is, spiritual text usually talk in code. It was far more common in the past to write about something using symbolism than today, this unfortunately goes over a lot of peoples heads. Besides a few chronologies, Deuteronomy (and perhaps a better explanation of the fall of man such as whats found in the works of jacob boehme), I find a lot of value in the Old Testament which is applicable even today. Wisdom of Sirach is probably the among the most practical books in the Bible imo.

>>2335687
True enough, certainly all sorts of stuff from the OT is applicable, but the overall tone and nature of the God described in the OT is one of a god of war, vs. the NT God which is betrayed as a loving being encouraging harmony and enlightenment (until you get to Revelation). The Cathars would have drastically changed the overall nature of the religion.

Then again, during those early to mid hard times of Christianity, much like those ancient hard times among the Hebrews whose work they draw upon, you might kinda need that war like outlook, just to survive.

>>2335713
>betrayed
portrayed

(I mean he was betrayed too, but not what I was after.)

People are retarded when it comes to interpreting revelations

Revelations was written in the Rome while Nero was carrying out a Christian witch hunt. Any Christian literature was destroyed immediately.

Revelations was written in code. Interpreting it literally is absolutely retarded. The beast is meant to be the devil/Nero. Theologians/classicists have deciphered it.

>>2335737
source

>>2332562

Because it openly reveals Jesus as God.

Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

Because it was written to an eyewitness to the risen Christ Jesus, John the Beloved.

Because it does not contradict anything in the OT.

Because Christians since 95 AD have known it to be the inspired Word of God.

Because to throw out one single word of it brings curses to a man.

>>2335737

Amillenialism has to contort facts so much to stick to their heresy.

Did Jesus reign and rule for a thousand years after Nero was killed? Was the devil imprisoned for a thousand years after Nero was killed?

Was the entire world and our two heavens demolished when Nero died?

Did the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, descend from heaven when Nero died?

Or was Nero simply another type of antichrist, as John said there were many?

>>2335737
>People are retarded when it comes to interpreting revelations

Yes, people like you. It's the Revelation of Jesus Christ, not "revelations".

>>2335713

Jesus does not single handedly win the Battle of Armageddon against the collective armies of the world by being a hippie.

>>2335764
Yet he BTFO some usury practicing bankers, and everyone forgets that, cuz muh seven headed dragons and shit.

Plus, the widespread belief that the apocalypse is just around the corner does rather discourage in investing in multi-generational efforts to improve man and his odds of survival.

I mean blazing star ship stories are fun and all, but leave them to the Hindus, they kinda have that market cornered.

>>2335787
There was a good info pic that warned people not to fall for the "nice Jesus" heresy.

As C.S. Lewis said about Aslan, his Christ analog, "he's not a tame lion".

>>2335713
Christ does say "I came not to bring peace, but the sword."

>>2335797
For the families which were divided, not the literal sword you retard. Daddy says its libation time for the emperor after praising Yaweh?
Fuck dad. Fuck the libation.

>>2335807
As almost everything in the bible, it works on more than one level.

2 Kings 19:35
And it came to pass on a certain night that the angel of the Lord went out, and killed in the camp of the Assyrians one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when people arose early in the morning, there were the corpses—all dead.

That's Jesus slaughtering 185,000 trained soldiers, in an instant.

>>2335807
>For the families which were divided, not the literal sword you retard.
You assume "families" can only be taken in the most personal context.

>>2335812
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSKPkpTF1ns

(Granted, this funny thing is almost exclusively OT. Also doesn't count Revelation.)

>>2335845
God has killed in the millions, easily.

Not someone you want as your enemy.

And yet, most of you have made him your enemy, when all he wants to do is make you his family and shower you with blessings.

Ponderous.

>>2332562
Were any other of the excluded books as fabulously predictive?

>>2332562
>a woman riding a seven-headed dragon?
Read Dave Hunt's "A Woman Rides The Beast" to fully understand this. And it's beast, not dragon. The woman is Mystery Babylon, better known these days as Roman Catholicism, and the beast she rides is the NWO, the kingdom of the Antichrist.

>Two "witnesses" that are able to kill people by emitting energy from their mouths a la DBZ?
The two witnesses are Moses (the Law) and Elijah (the Prophets), and they simply do what they did during their era. Plagues, fire from the sky, withhold all the rain; it's all been done before.

It will shatter your normalcy bias into a billion pieces.

>>2335752
Revelation was not written by John "the Beloved", cretin. It was written by a completely different individual who is referred to as 'John of Patmos'.

>>2335984
>source

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>>2335996
A number of Church doctors/fathers were of the belief that John the Disciple was not the actual author of Revelation, including: Dionysius of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesarea, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen, and John Chrysostom.

-Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, Board of Trustees; Catholic Church, National Conference of Catholic Bishops, Administrative Committee; United States Catholic Conference (2005). "The Book of Revelation". The New American Bible: translated from the original languages with critical use of all the ancient, including the revised Psalms and the revised New Testament. Oxford, New York: Oxford University Press. pp. 1363–1364. ISBN 978-0-19-528903-9. OCLC 436316983. Retrieved 2011-12-29.

Furthermore:
>"Mainstream scholars conclude that the author did not also write the Gospel of John because of wide differences in eschatology, language, and tone"
-Revelation, Book of." Cross, F. L., ed. The Oxford dictionary of the Christian church. New York: Oxford University Press. 2005

>"The Book of Revelation contains grammatical errors and stylistic abnormalities whereas the Gospel and Epistles are all stylistically consistent which indicate its author may not have been as familiar with the Greek language as the Gospel/Epistles's author"
-Ehrman, Bart D. (2004). The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings. New York: Oxford. p. 468. ISBN 0-19-515462-2.

>>2335482
Its the only part of the bible ive read completely and its fucking WILD!

>>2335737
>Interpreting it literally is absolutely retarded.
This, but you're off on your reasoning why. It wasn't written in code to be subversive, it's a piece of apocalyptic literature. Using code and symbolism are literally defining traits of the genre. It was a common genre at the time, and people would have understood that. Part of the reason modern interpretations of Revelation are so stupid is that people have forgotten what apocalyptic literature is (and the tropes that go with it), so they come up with stupid explanations (like the John was tripping) to explain something that would have been easy to understand when it was written.

I'm really surprised no one in this thread has mentioned this yet.

>>2336307
It's a lot funnier if John was tripping

>>2335618
>where the fuck all the folks Caine and Lilith were fucking came from
I'd be interested to see an explanation for how Cain found people, but what's this about Lilith? Didn't she fuck off after trying to ride Adam and start screwing demons or something?

>>2336845
"Lilith" is just rabbinical Jewish bullshit. Has nothing to do with Christanity.!

>>2336846
Yeah, no shit. That's not what I was asking him, you mong.

>>2335984
Relying on Catholics to tell you about the bible. Shame on you. They care nothing for it, especially the Revelation, as it clearly shows they are the Whore of Babylon.

John the beloved apostle wrote the Revelation.

You can, for sure, know this because Jesus said to the people listening to him that some (one) of them would not die until he saw Jesus descend from heaven in glory.

John the beloved apostle heard Jesus say that; the other apostles spread the rumor that John could not die; John the beloved apostle saw Jesus descend from heaven in glory before he died, and wrote about it.

Never trust Catholics about anything, ever, and you'll be better off.

>>2336210
>Ehrman, Bart D

Also, this atheist does not get to overturn 1900 years of Christian scholarship on his own say-so. He's a non-believer and has no more chance of understanding the bible than you do.

>>2336845
Cain's people were his sisters, and there was never a Lilith, and no pre-Adamic races.

>>2336210
Justin Martyr [Dialogue with Trypho, p. 308] (a.d. 139–161) quotes from the Apocalypse, as John the apostle’s work, the prophecy of the millennium of the saints, to be followed by the general resurrection and judgment. This testimony of Justin is referred to also by Eusebius [Ecclesiastical History, 4.18]. Justin Martyr, in the early part of the second century, held his controversy with Trypho, a learned Jew, at Ephesus, where John had been living thirty or thirty-five years before: he says that “the Revelation had been given to John, one of the twelve apostles of Christ.”

Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., Fausset, A. R., Brown, D., & Brown, D. (1997). A commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments.

>>2336865
Cain didn't have any sisters (or more precisely Adam and Eve didn't birth more children until after he fucked off). He murdered Abel, started wandering, then somehow fathered the first shepherds/metallurgists/musicians (somehow). An explanation as to how would be nice.

I am very much aware there was no Lilith, at least in Hebrew canon, but when I read someone saying "where the fuck all the folks Lilith fucked came from" I raise an eyebrow, because from what I've read she went to stealing babies and sucking demon cock after she hightailed it out of Eden.

>>2336890
Yes, he did.

Women are rarely if ever listed in the bible, yet we know women are 51% of the population.

You people with your "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" fallacies.

>>2335850
In order to be a part of said family I need to adhere to a rather strict set of rules, the breaking of any of which sends me to a deep dark place for the rest of time. If I'm good, I get to exist forever praising God in heaven. As far as I'm concerned I have no wish to exist forever, so both options seem kind of shitty.

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>>2336862
Why do you Christcucks have a vendetta against Ehrman? He's a respectable academic with views that are supported by textual criticism, archeology, and scholarly views of history.

>>2336955
Is that how adoptions work in your country?

No, you just confess out loud that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead.

You will live forever no matter which destination you choose. You are an immortal soul.

>>2336862
>triggered by the name of a well respected and mainstream scholar

>>2336965
He's not respectable in any sense of the word.

Unless you also think Dan Brown is a respectable theologian, in which case I can't help you.

>>2336988
He's neither. He's a book hustler, plain and simple.

>>2336911
Yes, as in he had sisters, or as in he had sex with them? Because I mentioned in my post that he had sisters. Whether or not he populated Enoch via incest I guess is up to if you're an Ethiopian Jew/Orthodox and/or think Jubilees is canon.

>>2336965
Actually his peers think very little of him, and tear apart his work with ease. I suggest you get in touch with Metzger if you want to know the real Ehrman.

>>2336978
Depends. I was raised Catholic, went atheist, some of my best friends essentially converted me to nondenominational Protestantism, and now I'm leaning deist. I've actually started reading the bible and it is rather fascinating stuff and does seem to contain much truth, but I tend to harbor an extremely pessimistic view of people in general and cannot foresee a day where everything will turn out alright.
I do try to pray and thank God for what I have, but at the same time wrestle with doubt every single day. I've always been taught to question and rationalize everything, downside being that I hold few convictions in life and have a hard time adhering to something for a long period of time.
>Immortal soul
If that's true then that doesn't necessarily comfort me. The idea of stretching on forever seems absolutely terrifying.

>>2336999
Both. Make it simple. Cain is marked so nobody kills him. Only his family exists. One of his sisters loves him and leaves with him. Those two found a city, and populate an area. Just like Adam and Eve had some four dozen kids.

And we know that the descendants of Cain were worse than he was.

>>2336996
he writes for journals and for the general public. let's cut to the chase: you dislike him because you disagree with all of biblical scholarship. nothing about his views are particularly unique in his field

>>2337004
Don't be terrified of eternity. It is the absence of time, not a "very long" time.

What I told you is found in the 10th chapter of Romans, if you'd like to read it for yourself. Just know that those two things, confessing Jesus to be Lord, and believing in your heart God raised him from the dead, are supernatural acts that require supernatural assistance.

So just ask the Holy Spirit to help you. He'd be delighted.

>>2337020
Well if anything I'll read that chapter. I feel that if I ever do wish to strengthen my faith I'd be better served knowing what was written.

>>2337018

I dislike him because he profits off of publishing books that cast unfounded, reckless, and spurious doubts on the Word of God.

Whenever I find a poster who doesn't believe the bible has been maintained properly, they cite Ehrman 99.9% of the time.

Because Ehrman is not a christian by his own confession, he has absolutely no framework to understand the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit in preserving the scriptures for all generations.

No, he's screaming about a hundred thousand movable nus, none of which matter.

>>2337034
If I might make a suggestion, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

See if you can get your hands on the bible on CD, and listen to Romans 10.

There's something about receiving information through your ears, rather than your eyes, that sharpens your faith.

Or read it aloud to yourself. Either way, godspeed and I will be praying for you.

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>>2336993
>>2337002
Why do you Christcucks come on a board if you know you're going to get triggered? We're not going to humor your crap, and we're going to discuss Christianity in an academic and historical context; not as though it literally occurred or were truth.

And I'm looking at Ehrman's history, and he appears to be well-respected and reputable enough. Funny that his main detractors happen to be evangelicals and professors at divinity schools.

>>2336210
>Being a furry
Not really surprised someone who has irreparably ruined his life by getting suckered into a degenerate internet meme doesn't believe in God

>>2337090
>Christian
>Believing in irreparable ruination

Begone, agent of Satan.

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>>2337090
>buzzwords: the post

Sorry, did you have anything to refute about the actual point I raised, or did you simply waste your time just to post a dated ad hominem from 2007? Shoo - go pray your deity instead.

American bible bashers are the funniest bible bashers. My sides.

>>2337059
I can only speak for myself. I get far worse than triggered here. Maybe you believe in the supernatural, maybe you don't. But God's not the only supernatural being that exists, and not all the angels are what you might call "friendly".

I'll tell you why I come here. I come here because if I was not saved as a child, I would be here for recreation/entertainment/lulz, just like most of you. I wouldn't go to church, I wouldn't read the bible, I wouldn't know Jesus, I wouldn't be saved. Nor would I go anywhere where I might encounter such information; I'd just be here.

So there had to be somebody crazy enough, stubborn enough, and nuts enough to come here to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, or I would never have known how to be saved.

I've led many men and women to the Lord here, because I'm caustic enough, stubborn enough, and crazy enough to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ here.

I'm here to tell people that if I can be saved, so can they. If I can have a relationship with the living God, so can they. If I can escape the punishment I deserve in an eternal lake of fire, so can they.

That's why I'm here. To redeem the day, because it is evil. To preach the gospel of the cross to the poor, at the uttermost parts of the earth, at the end of time.

>>2337111
Bible bashers means people who do not believe the bible.

I think you're looking for "bible thumpers". (which came about as a good way to get rid of cysts that appear on the hand and wrist; a good thump with a heavy leather bound bible does the trick every time.)

>>2337112
Why the fuck are you preaching here? This board is dedicated to history and the humanities, not to proselytizing or to supernatural events. Seriously, fuck off.

Go to /b/ or /x/: they'll humor your trash there.

>>2337119

Because HisStory is His to tell.

>>2337119
Actually we've had many fruitful discussion about religion on this board. Just because every so often an autistic fedora tipper wanders in and gets his nose out of joint that the honor of Saint Dawkins is being besmirched doesn't really mean we can't continue to discuss it here. Sorry mang, you're outvoted

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>>2337112
You just admitted you're a shitposter. Great job.

>>2337117
Bible-basher
(also Bible-thumper)

noun

informal

A person who expounds or follows the teachings of the Bible in an aggressively evangelical way.

Thickie

>>2332685
>to this day many still don't.
That's plain wrong

But it is true that Luther wanted to classify it apocrypha, though his contemporaries weren't having any of it.

>>2337127
We clearly don't agree on your usage of the term "shitposter". What I post was written thousands of years ago.

Way back in history.

Where do your opinions come from?

>>2337132
Never trust a Catholic about anything. Good rule to live by.

>>2337126
>Actually we've had many fruitful discussion about religion on this board

No you haven't, liar. If a religious fuck makes a thread about religion, the whole thing devolves into "I'm Catholic and I'm right because of this passage and you're all going to hell" - "Well I'm Protestant and this other passage says I'm right and you're wrong and you'll be the one going to Hell!" - "Oh yeah well I'm Orthodox and this passage says I'm the one that's in the right and you're wrong and I'll be the one laughing when you're in Hell!". Without exception.

When someone tries to make a thread to discuss Christianity academically, it gets flooded by Christcuck shitposters like you who come disrupt the conversation by posting Bible verses and pontificating about how the posters are sinners.

You Christcuck fedora LARPers are the cancers of this board.

Lastly, every time there's a poll, atheists/agnostics outnumber the religiousfags here: even better, the religious ones aren't uniformly Christcucks, as there's always a significant amount of Buddhists and pagans and other religions. This board isn't a Christcuck board.

>>2337150

You not understanding a thread does not invalidate the thread.

Just stick to the threads where you think something you can understand is happening.

Easy peasy.

Anyone who believes any spooky book is the infallible word of a sky daddy is a deluded dickhead. The only sensible way to approach these texts its allegorically.

First principles: What kind of census do you have to travel to where you're originally from, anyway? What would be the point?

>>2337150
We can still discuss religion here from a theological perspective, if you get bootyblasted about it that's your own issue, deal with it

>>2337150
>being this buttblasted on a weeaboo board.
kys

>>2337158
A Roman one.

The following is a record of a census taken in the year 104 A.D. which contains similar wording to that found in the Gospel:
"From the Prefect of Egypt, Gaius Vibius Maximus. Being that the time has come for the house to house census, it is mandatory that all men who are living outside of their districts return to their own homelands, that the census may be carried out . . . "

Another census was uncovered from 48 A.D. which also records a return of the people to their native land for the census. It reads as follows:
"I Thermoutharion along with Apollonius, my guardian, pledge an oath to Tiberius Claudius Caesar that the preceding document gives an accurate account of those returning, who live in my household, and that there is no one else living with me, neither a foreigner, nor an Alexandrian, nor a freedman, nor a Roman citizen, nor an Egyptian. If I am telling the truth, may it be well with me, but if falsely, the reverse. In the ninth year of the reign of Tiberius Claudius Augustus Germanicus Emperor."

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>>2337156
>implying there's anything difficult to understand in Christianity

Give me a break - Christianity has nothing complicated in it. It's a movement started by slaves and the dregs of society: there's nothing in it that is complicated or hard to understand, even though it pretends to shroud itself in mysticism to scare believers into submission.

Now Buddhism (Hell, any of the Dharmic religions) - now that's what you can call complicated. But Christianity? Don't flatter yourself.

>>2337170
Actually, the census' stipulated that people havd to return to their actual residence to take the census where they are currently residing.

It still doesn't answer why Joseph had to return to his ancestral home where he was no longer residing.

In other words, you're still wrong, and trying too hard.

>>2335667
Yeah, considering how the bible has been a great historical preserver of religious writings, it's sad that a bunch of stuff was chucked out entirely. It would have been hugely informative for the history of religion to have an extended canon of all Christian writings available during the 2nd to 4th centuries

>>2337173
There are supernaturally impossible things to understand in Christianity, which is why you cannot 1) say out loud that Jesus is Lord while 2) believing in your heart God raised him from the dead.

Just can't do it.

The bible says what a man sows, so shall he reap.

All of your precious new age eastern mysticism religions are based on that one little tiny kernel of wisdom in the bible.

>>2337183

Just quoting the part you literally could not have read above.

Being that the time has come for the house to house census, it is mandatory that all men who are living outside of their districts return to their own homelands, that the census may be carried out . . . "

>>2337185
I don't think "chucked out" is the right way to describe. Various communities circulated various religious text. During the councils they codified what was and wasn't canon among those text. No "complete" Bible ever existed, and deciding which Gnostic, heremtic, ect text would be authentically Christian would be difficult.

>>2337185
Things don't last, generally. Papyrus? Years, maybe. Sheepskin? Century? Maybe?

>>2337201
It's not difficult at all.

The 66 books of bible are the inspired Word of God.

Everything else isn't. And for very good reasons. For instance, literally nothing gnostic is "good".

>>2337183
Even if he wasn't spouting nonsense, which he is, why would Matthew state that Jesus was born in Bethlehem because his parents lived there, but the family was forced to flee when Herod tried to kill all the newborn boys? Which one of these cats is right? More importantly, one of them has to be, fallibly, wrong.

>>2337200
The census stipulated that men had to return to their current places of residence.

So why did Joseph return to Bethlehem? He was not living there; it was only his (supposedly) ancestral home.

Your statement doesn't really prove anything: the entire "men have to return to their place of origin" is still an invention, because the examples from Roman censuses we have state the opposite: "men are to return to their current places of residence", not to their places of birth.

>>2337201
That's true, I wasn't implying there was a bigger bible, just that anything not included in the canon was neglected or stamped out when it could have been preserved for historical or theological interest.

Luckily for us the Ethiopians have a wider canon, which means we have the entire Book of Enoch.

>>2337198
demonstrate to me that anything which is "supernaturally impossible" to understand is also worth discussing in any way.
otherwise we are just talking about children's tales with no actual bearing on the observable world.

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because this is old history, when earth fell to yhwh the first time.

>>2337215
They were ordered to go to their city of origin, not their homes.

Joseph is a descendant of David, as is Mary, and they both had to report to Bethlehem, the city of David. So did many other people; hence the "no room at the inn" thing.

People take censuses to know how many people they have under them, and where they're from. Been like that for thousands of years.

>>2337233

Not only did I already tell you, I labeled them 1) and 2).

And you cannot do them, no matter how hard you try. All you can do is give yourself excuses.

>>2337243
you did not demonstrate why this is a conversation worth having. you gave me two pieces of theological dribble that have exactly zero meaning to anyone who has not already accepted the divinity of christ, or has no interest in analyzing the meaning behind desert mythology.

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>>2337242
You're fucking stupid.

The purpose of a census - even the Roman ones - was to determine the amount of people living in area for purposes of taxation and administration. The census stipulations that other Anon posted made it clear that men were supposed to return to their current places of residence (assuming they were traveling or itinerant workers) for the census. A census calling for people to "return to their places of origin" makes no sense, especially when you consider the amount of foreigners living in Judea at the time, particularly in the cities of Caesaria Maritima and the Decapolis - what, all the Greeks and Romans were going to make the voyage back to Latium and Greece just for a census?

You thick idiot, get it through your head: the conditions of the Roman censuses are that one has to go back to their current residence if traveling, NOT to their city of birth. The idea of a census forcing people to return to their ancestral cities is an invention made to conveniently tie Jesus to Messianic prophecies, after the fact.

How many times does this basic fact have to be repeated to you?

>>2337261
I gave you an impossible task, because it is supernatural.

Try to do it, and fail, repeatedly, so that you can know it is a supernatural task that you cannot do on your own.

Or run away in fear. Your choice.

>>2337318
>Being that the time has come for the house to house census, it is mandatory that all men who are living outside of their districts return to their own homelands, that the census may be carried out . . . "

It's as though you cannot read and comprehend English.

>>2337318
>NOT to their city of birth.

>homelands

>>2337361
you've erroneously asserted that something is impossible. i seriously fail to see the significance.

>>2337361
>I gave you an impossible task, because it is supernatural.
Anon there are plenty of things that are impossible which are not also supernatural. Here's an example - a single number within the reals cannot be both rational and irrational. Here's another example - no being, not even God, can count the irrationals, even given infinite time.

>>2337361
Also more to the point, whether or not I believe God raised Jesus from the dead seems to me irrelevant to my physical ability to speak words. A simple demonstration is my ability to tell someone to mimic those English words while he is an Italian who believes in his heart the ressurection of Jesus. Simple.

>All of your precious new age eastern mysticism religions are based on that one little tiny kernel of wisdom in the bible.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>2337059
Don't bully Christ-chan, she's a qt

>>2337020
Eternity is not an abscence of time either you dumb shit, it's theologically when time loses meaning. Absolutely different from the abscence of time, which would require you to become a metaphysical benig - in other words, God. God himself is below the ontological which is a whole different level of complete bullshit.

>>2332562
There was a fucking pope named dionysius?!

>>2337112
Its such a beutiful thing being here and suddendy find your post... Im currently struggling with this feel of not deserving salvation because of my sins do you ever felt it?

>>2337112
That's the thing though. What if you've heard the same message over and over again, and just find that you can't believe? If eternal salvation means becoming a humorless person who must take every action seriously, can't have any sort of fun, live life according to a strict set of rules, and then end your existence in eternal praise to a "loving" deity who will fuck you over for the smallest infraction seems like hell to me. Why us? Why earth? Why this one speck in the vastness of space? What in the hell makes us special enough to warrant the attention of a seemingly bipolar madman who can allegedly fuck with our lives for his amusement.

>>2337361
Goddamn, you're stupid.
Honestly surprised you haven't been range banned yet.

>>2338368
>mods
>extant

I know your ilk, OP
>butchers data so it agrees with his worldview
>I-I was being guided

>>2332562
>or the thread will get spammed by Chrisfag posters who want to proselytize rather than discuss academic points
>or
HMMMMMMM

>>2338108
>who can allegedly fuck with our lives for his amusement
This isn't technically unique to the Christian God. Any metaphysical being can do so. This is ironically beyond any ontological being, who simply are, which the Bible seems to think God is but contradicts in its very first chapter by having him create something while simultaneously having him be omnipresent i.e. has him change over the course of the first seven days.
But yeah metaphysical beings are essentially people with GM or author privileges. You basically have to hope for the best because that's all you can do.
But at any rate the funny thing is - since God tests Job by putting him through bullshit then essentially says "who are you to question me I am God and you are not", you may as well go "the bible may be a test to see if we can look beyond it" as easily as "the bible is the Truth" because the stories within repeatedly tell you not to put god to the test, to simply believe, that you will never understand Him yada yada. Makes the entire book unreliable, to say the least.
It's great as allegory though. The whole out-of-paradise story is actually really cool shit if you read it as a lament about how, more or less, ignorance is bliss.

>>2338400
Have you read the text that was removed from the bible?
Apocripha and gnostic stuff?

>>2338409
I mean that shit isn't canonical though, there's so much stuff removed from the Bible or that was simply never included in the first place that it seems meaningless to call them all Christian.

>>2338416
It is non canon if you are part of a sect that says so

>>2338436
I'm not part of any sect, I'm not interested in the religious aspect of it but the philosophical and allegorical aspects.

>>2338440
All the more reasons
I myself have gotten interested in gnosticism lately

>>2338467
Well I mean I've read them
Demiurge is an interesting concept but again it feels a lot like some weird powerlevel bullshit that they didn't even manage to powerlevel correctly.
Like the entire concept of a mistake doesn't make sense for beings above Demiurge who is presented as ontological in nature despite being the lowest of them all. Ontological beings don't do anything except 'doing' and aren't anything except 'being'. Basically they're pure bullshit, and even an Unmoved Mover barely scraps the bottom level.
At any rate it feels meaningless to me to worship any of them when there's no evidence, when their own book is very nearly self-admittedly unreliable, and when "why the fuck would a metaphysical being give a shit about anything but its own whims". The philosophy and ideas behind them, however, are quite interesting.

>>2335742
Not that guy but I don't mind this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkZqFtYtqaI
Obviously it's not a complete source but it might introduce you to the idea

>>2338478
Oh? What do you think of the alien god notion?

>>2338666
Fuck off Satan

Anyway
>Alien God notion
Does this mean the "God if He exists would simply be a super advanced alien" perspective?
I don't think that makes sense. The divine differ from the human in type, not degree. Just because a human has the ability to blow up the moon, just because he has the POWER of a divine being, does not make him divine.
Now depending on worship we can debate whether or not this alien deserves worship. I certainly would imagine an alien that advanced is worth learning from, if he's a willing teacher.

But I won't recognize him as divine, because he isn't. To be divine, as far as I'm concerned, is to be 'above' in a sense beyond the normal 'ha I'm human but bigger' or the 'I'm human but really powerful' sense.
You'd need to be somehow inherently superior (and I mean again superior in type and not degree), or superior in form by being metaphysical or ontological in nature.
You'd need to have a bar seperating you such that no matter how many trillions of aeons, no matter how many insights, brilliant ideas, no matter planets of constructio material and stars worth of energy we're given, we simply will not catch up to them on a fundamental level - that's what I think deserves to be called divine, something truly beyond reach. Something that is to humanity as a cube is to a plane.

>>2338679
No, I mean the gnostic notion.
Apparently there's a branch of gnosticism with such a concept, can't wait to get paid and lay my hands on these books.

>>2338689
I'm not sure what you're referring to then
If you mean alien as in 'fundamentally unknowable' well my answer is 'obviously so'. Can a 2D object understand what it truly means to be 3D?

>>2338693
Well, I was hoping somebody knew and spilled the beans, as I mentioned I just found about it.

>>2338696
Sorry mate, I don't read most of these books in English

I dislike how contradictory the NT is to the gospels. I appreciated Revelation's fantastic imagery, but it depicts Jesus as some type of holy despot; a warrior king that slays the infidels and rules the nations with a rod of iron. This contradicts his messages in the gospels. To a lesser extent, the remainder of the NT does as well.
The only authoritative books are the four gospels, and even then the overtly symbolized John distorts the message and character of Christ as depicted in the other three.

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>>2340359
Christianfags, get out! →http://archive.is/6BLJY