Did the Carthaginians really sacrifice babies? Or was this a

>>2332284
>Black Hannibal
>Ruler of Carthage
Gets me every time.

>>2332284
They ate their babies because they needed to use all the salt they had.

>>2332284
>racist lie made up by the Romans
It can't be racist if they hate the same race, both Romans and Carthigineans were black.

>>2332284
Before the thread gets taken over by "WE WUZ" posting, I'm going to say that it was true. Elagabalus was a worshipper of eastern religions akin to what the Phoenicians/Carthaginians worshipped and he was accused of sacrificing children. Then there's moloch which I'm pretty sure is part of the same pantheon and child sacrifice is associated with him. There seems to be thing in Semitic paganism and child sacrifice.

>>2332284
What is accurate location of ***Carthage*** ?

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>>2332403
here senpai

>>2332437
kek

>>2332333
Elagabalus was whoremporer who was nuts. Carthaginians probably didnt sacrificed children stop meming. Even human sacrifice was seen as something improper.

>>2334333
Probably only.
Semitic religions were into baby killing.
Abraham was about to sacrifice his own son.

>>2334343
Lack sources make it muddy. I can only say that romans found it disgusting only used few times.

>>2334361
The date of the sources should be looked at. And who wrote them, Augustus propaganda machine, some biased historian, senators that at the time were at war with Carthage.
Those immediately before and after the third Punic war have, I feel, a much greater chance of being propaganda.

>mfw no history of Carthage by Claudius to learn about them

>>2334368
I generally trust livy and plutarch. According wiki page livy doesnt mention it but plutarch does so i am not sure.

>>2332284
Didn't they find archeological evidence of this?

>>2332284
It's true. All of it.
http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2014-01-23-ancient-carthaginians-really-did-sacrifice-their-children
>'Child abandonment was common in the ancient world, and human sacrifice is found in many historical societies, but child sacrifice is relatively uncommon. Perhaps the future Carthaginians were like the Pilgrim Fathers leaving from Plymouth – they were so fervent in their devotion to the gods that they weren't welcome at home any more.

>>2332302
Racist

>>2332302
WE

>>2332284
I watched a documentary once where they sadi the only evidence for child sacrifice was these Urns dicovered with childrens remains in them that were stored in a kind of small warehouse. I remember them saying it was a common theory that it was proof of child sacrifice, but that it was more likely in reality just a way they buried their dead.

>>2334771
>warehouse

They were ceneteries known ad tophets and most of the bones are from stillborn children, so hardly human sacrifice

>>2332437
Its hard to belive that communications of this place were capable to do wars. Roman empire hadnt any control of non-coastal African lands and hadnt reason to go there.

>>2334620
"Dr Quinn said: 'People have tried to argue that these archaeological sites are cemeteries for children who were stillborn or died young, but quite apart from the fact that a weak, sick or dead child would be a pretty poor offering to a god, and that animal remains are found in the same sites treated in exactly the same way, it's hard to imagine how the death of a child could count as the answer to a prayer."

How is this proof it was a sacrifice? Couldn't it be possible that after the child or animal died of unfortunate "natural" causes that it was simply a dead body was prepared according to their rituals? Why does it necessarily have to be a live sacrifice?

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>>2332284
>Or was this a racist lie

>>2334792
Many of then are still born, so hardly a sacrifice, yes

>>2332284
>Or was this a racist lie made up by the Romans?

This. Likewise, the claim that the Druids practised human sacrifice was a lie designed to justify the brutal suppression of the Druidic religion. What makes these lies all the more egregious is that the Romans themselves practised human sacrifice at one point, and of course they still practised mass human sacrifice in the form of the gladiatorial games.

>>2334343
>Semitic religions were into baby killing.

No they weren't. Yes Abraham, but a) Abraham didn't exist and b) the whole point of the story is that he was so pious he would even sacrifice his child, suggesting such a thing was far from the norm.

>>2334575

They found a child cemetery. You can infer from that that they sacrificed children, but it really doesn't follow and it's hardly conclusive proof.

>>2334792
>>2334620
http://www.livescience.com/23298-carthage-graveyard-not-child-sacrifice.html
>The team argues that many tooth fragments found at the Tophet were actually developing tooth buds from the jaws of fetuses and stillborn babies who could not have been live sacrifices.

>>2334815
>Many of then are still born
>therefor the was no sacrificing going on
Sometime I really doubt /his/ reading skills.
>Children – both male and female, and mostly a few weeks old – were sacrificed by the Carthaginian

Also you could have easily found the paper the article is referring to. Spoonfeed: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/div-classtitlecemetery-or-sacrifice-infant-burials-at-the-carthage-tophetdiv/DAC7C386CD20F5C280C9DB41E5184A2E

>>2334874
Older than this paper tho: http://www.cambridge.org.secure.sci-hub.cc/core/journals/antiquity/article/div-classtitlecemetery-or-sacrifice-infant-burials-at-the-carthage-tophetdiv/DAC7C386CD20F5C280C9DB41E5184A2E

>Here we close the debate with two related papers. In the first of these, Patricia Smith and her
co-authors return to argue that infant sacrifice is still (in their view) the most likely interpretation
of the data, based on the age distribution of the deceased. In the second, Paolo Xella and colleagues,
too, are convinced that infant sacrifice took place. They step aside from the details of the cremated
remains, however, to emphasise a range of other social and archaeological aspects of the Tophets
in Carthage and elsewhere that are critical for understanding these sanctuaries and their rituals.

>>2334792

So this Dr Quinn thinks the dead children were child sacrifices because many are of stillborn infants who would have made a poor sacrifice? What? Am I on crazy pills or this some next level non sequiterism?

>>2334881

But you source doesn't explain the tooth buds. You can't just say "yes, many at least of these children were stillborn" and then conclude "we think they were human sacrifices".

>>2334885
The paper fully explains the tooth buds. With graphics and shit. Also I hardly believe you read an 18 page paper in 1 minute.

>>2334885
>But you source doesn't explain the tooth buds
>Neonatal line: further inconsistencies can be seen in the age estimates given by Schwartz et al. (2012: tab. 3) where age estimates based on the location of the neonatal line and skeletal age of the same individual differ in 20 out of 22 individuals. Moreover, contra their claims, absence of a neonatal line in some of their specimens is not in itself evidence of perinatal death. For example, Antoine et al. (2009) were able to locate this line in only one out of five teeth they examined from three- to four-year-old children. They reported that inability to visualise the neonatal line may result in underestimation of age by as much as 12 weeks. Since the visibility of the neonatal line depends on the ightscattering effect associated with differences in the angulation of the prisms between the neonatal line and adjacent enamel, its visibility is even further impaired in cremated teeth where heat-related changes affect the chemical and crystalline composition of the enamel (Mayer et al. 1990; Person et al. 1997; Lebon et al. 2008
>But you source doesn't explain the tooth buds

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>>2334333
>Elagabalus was followed a Semitic religion and was reported to have practiced child sacrifice
>Carthaginians followed a Semitic religion and were reported to have practiced child sacrifice
>Moloch was a god in the Semitic religion and is commonly associated with child sacrifice
I'm just saying that there's a trend with Semitic paganism and child sacrifice so there's a good chance that it's true

>>2334368
>Muh Augustan propaganda machine
Holy shit. This is like the ancient equivalent of the patriarchy

>>2335196
Are you saying it wasn't a thing?

>>2332437
Would anyone be willing to explain this joke to me?

>>2334844
>killing criminals and dissidents is the same as human sacrifices

>>2334844
>People volunteering to duel for money and sending dissidents against the state to die in ways that benefit multiple people is the same as killing a healthy child to make it rain

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>>2332284
>general Carthage thread I suppose
I spit on your thread and furthermore, I consider that Carthage must be destroyed.

>>2336168
Can i save your picture senpai it looks sweet.

>>2335114
Don't forget about pagan Arabs who buried their infant daughters alive as sacrifices.

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>>2336174
Go ahead my friend. It's all yours.

>>2332284

>tfw carthage has always appeared a much more interesting civilization than rome to you

I guess it's the what-could-have-been element of it

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>>2336176
thx senpai. Have one of my favorite

>>2336194
Muthafucka. I actually thought this was an actual Cicero quote before I realized it was from Skyrim Cicero.

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>>2332284
>Also, general Carthage thread I suppose

What the fuck did you just say?

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>>2336625

bump :)

>>2334844
>Gladiators fought to the death

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>>2332284

>>2336132
It's a play on the fact that some WE WUZ types like to try and portray the Carthaginians as black people because they were "African". Carthage is located only about 200 miles south of Sicily so its people are pretty white in appearance.

The joke is that in this map they moved Tunisia way down into sub-Saharan Africa.

>>2338453
kek

>>2332284
Yes.

>>2338429
>>2338441
What book is that from?