Is there any reason not to be a Christian?

Is there any reason not to hide Christfag threads on sight from

>& Humanities

?

>>2292950

You have enough neurons to form a synapse and knowledge of how the New Testament was constructed.

>>2292967
This has been the case throughout history, and yet it still exists?

https://youtu.be/ZerWs3aY5Sc

>>2292950
Biblical criticism has only been a thing for a few centuries.

>>2292983
Meant to quote >>2292969

>>2292950
>Jesus fulfilled OT prophecies
>"fulfilled" prophecies included passages from psalms

>inb4 fundie-kun comes to post a long ass list of links and youtube videos

>>2292950
There is no evidence to either prove or disprove a God?

>>2292969

Not among the Christian population. Hell, most of them will still deny that the gospels were written by people who were not Judean natives.

>>2293054
They were written by Judean natives though.

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>>2293089

>>2292950
I don't believe in God

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>>2292950
>JESUS IS NOT GOD(1/3)

Jesus HIMSELF said:

John 14:48 :
...My Father is greater than I

John 10:29:
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all...

John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing....

Johh 5:30 clearly implies Jesus does not possess the quality of God. God can do everything.

Matthew 24:36:
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

This verse is talking about doomsday. This clearly state that Jesus(Son) doesn't know when is doomsday. God know everything, but Jesus doesn't know everything.

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>>2292950
>JESUS IS NOT GOD(2/3)

Mark 10:18
"And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

Jesus, according to him, are not even worthy to be called good. Much less a god.

Mark 12:29
"Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.

The Trinity concept is refuted by Jesus.

John 5:31
"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.

If Jesus is god, then how come he CANNOT testify his own testimony?

Isaiah 11:2-3

2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the FEAR OF THE LORD
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD....

'God'(Jesus) fearing another God(Father)? Nonsense.

ACCORDING TO YOU CHRISTIANS, Jesus was begotten by God, which literally means he has a beginning. Thus he is not God, for God has no beginning.

>>2293089

No they weren't. For starters, Luke doesn't even claim to be written by a native. For the other three, ask yourself why supposed Judean natives don't know extant scripture (Mark 1:1, Matthew 2:23) language (John 19:13, 19:17), geography (Mark 7:31), religious law (Mark 10:11-12, John 18:28). Why do so many "pharisees", hold Sadducee positions? (Mark 3:7, Matthew 12:10) Why do none of them point out any of the enormous illegalities of the trial Ciaphas runs, or note that "Jesus Barrabas" would mean, "Jesus, Son of the Father" in Aramaic?

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>>2292950

Iesus Christi is literally God.

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>>2292950
>JESUS IS NOT GOD(3/3)
>"""""""Jesus calling the Father "MY GOD"?!?"""""""

John 20:17
Jesus said, "....my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Jesus's Father and our Father? Are we the Son of God?

JESUS SAID "MY GOD". Which is totally NOT equal with the Father.

>>2292950
God doesn't real m8.

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>>2292950
>JESUS IS NOT GOD(4/3)
>JESUS WORSHIPPING THE GOD?!?
>A GOD(JESUS) WORSHIPPING THE GOD(FATHER)?!?!

Jesus pray to the Father:

Matthew 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father...

>>2293122
>>2293130
>>2293145
>Repeating Muslim propaganda like a well trained dog
The Islamic brainwashing is strong with this one.

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>>2293160

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>>2293132
>i'm going to pretend that we have a crystal clear understanding of the complex social and religious customs of a society that existed over two thousand years ago so i can nitpick about minutae and act like it's the smoking gun that completely undermines the authenticity of the gospels and if you disagree with me i WILL engage you in an intensely autistic debate about the subtleties of ancient jewish law and culture and there is nothing absolutely nothing you dumb goyim can do about it!

>>2293160
I literally copypaste from biblehud and biblegateway

>>2293167
Reminder that Muhammad was not a prophet

>Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

>>2293171

Anon, not being able to tell the difference between things like Hebrew and Aramaic IS a smoking gun. If you don't want to look at it, that's fine, but don't try to pretend it's not obvious.

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>>2293181
no OT prophet is a prophet then

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>>2292950
I literally don't have the capacity to deal with you Christians today.

Give me one unambiguous statement that Jesus says that "he is god" or "worship him".

And I'll deal it with after 12 hours of break, maybe.

>>2293193
It doesn't mention anything about OT prophets? Only that any 'prophet' who goes out into the world after Jesus and denies his divinity is a false prophet.

>>2293209
it does not specify that. it says that spirits from God confess Jesus Christ as Lord. was Jesus Christ not Lord before he was born? he is supposed to be preexistent with the rest of the trinity

>>2293198
Before Abraham, I am
I and the Father are one
If you have seen me, you have seen the Father
Glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world was created

>>2293160
He got it from a History Channel documentary, "Banned from the Bible."

>>2293160
He is literally quoting directly from the Bible. Complete with verse citations, so you can look up the verses in your own copy of the Bible if you don't believe him.

>>2293226
that's completely unrelated to this. but Jesus did anime-anon embarrass himself when he used that documentary

>>2293189
It's not obvious, you're just a retard.

>>2293181
Can you read?

Does it said "People that confessed that 'Jesus is god' is from God"?

Muhammad HONOR Mother Mary! DEFENDING her against from false accusations of her enemies!

WHY WOULD AN ARAB GO OUT OF HIS WAY TO DEFEND A JEWISH WOMAN?

>>2293222
Any Buddhist could say the same thing with a totally different meaning. You are the one who imposes the meaning you want.

>Jesus never spoke in metaphors bro

>>2293252

Ok, then just explain that one example to me.

If the author of John is in fact a Judean native, why does he twice in the same chapter, in the space of a few verses, identify Aramaic words as "Ἑβραϊστὶ " Hebraisiti, "In the Hebrew". Surely a native who grew up with Aramaic as a cradle tongue would know the difference between Aramaic and Hebrew.

>>2293259
It's pointless trying to read anything into Islamic doctrine because it is so obviously a satanic religion founded by a man who denies Christs divinity it's laughable. The whole religion was founded by a person who was listening to Satan and decided to undermine Christs sacrifice

>Hey look at me, I'm Muhammad, I claim God told me it's a-ok to cheat on my wife and have sex with my slaves!

I can't believe you morons buy into that shit.

>>2293260
Except it's clear what he's saying. After those first two the Jews started throwing rocks at him.

By the way I just got those quotes from a Bart Ehrman page, one of the foremost NT scholars who agrees Jesus never claims to be God in any other gospel but clearly does in John.

AN IMPORTANT LESSON IN HISTORY HERE GUYS

An Israeli who does not consider himself a "Jew" (but sure knows my origins is from Abraham) and certainly not a Rothschild Zionist (which you all hate and think you hate Israelis as a people) is speaking.

I'll take you back to the bible to talk about Abraham who was the richest man among the hebrews at the time and his knowledge and abilities were far more than the avarage man at the time, created God and the Jewish religion in order to control his people. Just because he knows he can tell them anything he want and they will belive.
He was the first man to be called jew on earth and his sons and family are to be considered as the first jewish origins on earth. man considered a jew only if he was born to a jewish mother. MEANING ONLY FAMILY.

After the jewish people expanded and started to imerge with other people from lands around, Jews decided to come up with another religion which they will establish and expose ONLY to those in the world who are not jews (not family) IN ORDER TO CONTROL THEM TOO.

The chosen guy to tell the story was Jesus (Joshua son of Josef) - a 100% jew from jewish family which his origins is from King David's family. Joshua sat and teached the story to his 12 apostles - messangers - students of jesus - lobbyists as we know them today.
All of them 100% jews.
The plan was that each one of them will travel to some other land in the world in order to tell the story.
One of them is going to be the first pope Saint Peter (also known for his jewish name Simon son of Jonah, or just Simon Peter).

This was not the first time that an act of spread and control like this is done by the jewish leaders, the first act was done by Jacob - grand son of Abraham, who set his 12 sons to control the Hebrew and divided the people to The 12 Tribes of Israel to be controlled by his sons years before.

However this was not also the last time

To be continued ->

>>2292950

The non-existence of god seems like a good one to me.

>>2293299
Except God does exist

>>2292950
You honestly and truly do not believe in religion at all.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

>>2293265
Well anon one possible explanation is given that John was writing to a Gentile audience who would neither be very interested or knowledgeable about the distinctions between Hebrew and Aramaic (after all they are very similar languages) he may have for convenience sake said Hebrew because his audience would probably at the very least know that is the language most associated with Jewish people.

>>2293278

The same act was done by Mayer Amschel Rothschild in Europe at the end of 18th century, when he sent his 5 sons to 5 different cities in europe. Each one of his sons is going to open one brach of the Royal Family Bank and start lending money to big corporations and governments. This act is going to effect hundreds of years later, they are going to conquer europe and be the strongest family on earth during the whole 19th century, they are going to finance both Napoleon side and British side in the war and take control on the Bank of England through this, they are going to put lobbyists in positions in US government like Jcob Schiff, with his help they are going to found the Federal Reserve together with JP Morgan and Rockefeller family back in 1910 in the meeting in Jerkyll island and take control on Americans population too, they are going to get the Balfour decleration from British nation which promises them Israeli land back and in return they bring in USA to fight alongside with Britain in WW1 (WHICH THEY FINANCE EVERY SIDE FIGHTING AND MAKE PROFITS ON) they are going to make profits from every fighting side and also finance hitler in WW2 through the Bank for International Settlements founded through partnership by both governor of the Bank of England Montegue Norman and Nazi Germany's minister of Economics Hjalmar Schacht, they are still "running the world" today and controlling every known bank, corporation, government, written and televised media and they still have lobbyist everywhere just like Henry Kissenger

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>>2293318
Your audience not knowing the difference isn't an excuse for a blatant error. also there is no convenience to this based on aramaic being associated with Jews, as aramaic was widely spoken throughout the near east, not just by Jews.

>>2293318


That's not exactly persuasive. If he's so convinced of his largely gentile audience's apathy towards local knowledge of Judea, why include the relevant verses at all? Who cares what the local nomenclature is for a few trivial locations, especially since he goes on to describe their narrative functions in another verse completely.

>>2293331

It's hard to get to detailes by just a few words and but my bottom line is that the jewish people were the first to think that population of humans can be mass controlled and the richest and strongest people from them were invented the religion and god himself.
Since then they controlled the world's population.
They controlled in the bible, they controlled Holy Roman Empire after they invented christianity, and they are still controlling today for few thousands of years already.

And back to the topic, what there is to belive in when you know the jews created christianity on perpose and jesus and all the popes to rule were OBVIOUSLY JEWISH LOBBYISTS

>>2293335
The fact that Aramaic wasn't associated with Jews only proves my point; that John described as Hebrew because to a gentile audience that identifies the Jewish people specifically.

>>2293343
The first we need to clear up is what verse(s) you are referring to specifically.

>>2293122
Jesus HIMSELF said:

John 14:48 :
...My Father is greater than I
But the bible says that even the angels were greater than Jesus, in Hebrews 1, at least while he lived before the crucifixion and after the nativity.

John 10:29:
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all...
The Father is God, and is greater than all.

John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing....
Jesus is perfectly one with the Father.
"I and my Father are one."

Matthew 24:36:
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Jesus' "unknowing" isn't one based not being consubstantial with the Father, but the differing roles between the Father, who leads providence, and the Son, who brings to man the understanding of God.

Not replying to all three. Bait level

>>2293425

I said it upthread. John 19:13 and 19:17

And as for this part

>The fact that Aramaic wasn't associated with Jews only proves my point; that John described as Hebrew because to a gentile audience that identifies the Jewish people specifically.


The problem is that the words he uses, "Gabbatha", "Golgotha", are Aramaic words, not Hebrew ones. Why use Ἑβραϊστὶ for a word in a language that "wasn't associated with Jews"?

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>>2293122
>>2293130
>>2293442
The Son is not the Father but both are Divine.

>>2293453
Not that anon, but divine worshipping a divine? >>2293157

Divine saying to another divine as his God? >>2293145

Divine fearing another divine?>>2293130

Peter said:

Acts 2:22
"Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a """""man""""" accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Literally perfect description of a prophet.

>>2293442
Whoah there anon, you're bending theses verses way too far.

>>2293442
>Bait level
The sad thing is it's not even bait. He's just regurgitating Islamic talking points about how Jesus wasn't God but just another prophet

>>2293469
>regurgitating Islamic talking points
He is literally quoting directly out of the Bible.

>>2293447
To identify the speaker as Jewish; John is writing to gentiles who have no idea about the distinctions between Hebrew and Aramaic however John wants them understand that he is a Jew writing about his own culture so rather than writing a tedious explanation about how Aramaic was a language spoken throughout the Levant so it is what Jesus would have literally used in day-to-day conversation but that Jesus ALSO would have spoken Hebrew when teaching Torah because that is the unique language of the Jews and that is the language you should associate with the Jewish people which is why John renders Jesus' (the King of the Jews) words as Ἐβραϊστὶ.

>>2293475
He's taking scripture out of context to make it fit the Islamic narrative.

>>2293469
>regurgitating Islamic talking points
He literally quoting Jesus

>>2293481
Just like you do to John 5?

>>2293481
>muh context
What more context do you need for
>...My Father is greater than I
or for
>And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father...

>>2292950
>believe in god or suffer in hell eternally
>only told the middle easterners ~3000 years ago
>fuck everyone not in middle east
>fuck everyone who lived 197,000 years before Judaism was a thing

What did god mean by this?

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>>2293467
The Father and the Son love each other through the power of the Holy Spirit and Jesus of Nazareth was indeed a prophet who is also the Son of God.

>>2293500
Yes, I also worship my mother and refers to my wife as God before on my way to work

>>2293500
Oh, and also, desu vault anon

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>>2293507
You really shouldn't do that to your own mother.

>>2293517
As did Jesus to do his Father, desu

>>2293480
literally all he had to do was write aramaic instead of hebrew, no need to tediously explain anything if he was at the doesn't give a shit level of writing the wrong language for "convenience"

>>2293495
Problem is Jesus was both fully man and fully God. You're taking passages where he is speaking as man and trying to argue that proves he wasn't also God, even though there are clear passages where he also speaks as God.

>I and the Father are one
>Glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world was created
>If you have seen me, you have seen the Father

>>2293480
>To identify the speaker as Jewish;


What speaker? It's introduced as the omniscient third person narrator. A factoid to be shared with the audience above the heads of the characters in the narrative.

>John is writing to gentiles who have no idea about the distinctions between Hebrew and Aramaic however John wants them understand that he is a Jew writing about his own culture so rather than writing a tedious explanation about how Aramaic was a language spoken throughout the Levant so it is what Jesus would have literally used in day-to-day conversation but that Jesus ALSO would have spoken Hebrew when teaching Torah

This isn't even wrong. It just doesn't even logically connect to the verses in question. I can't tell if you haven't read John or you haven't read what I've been writing, or both. But it's nonsensical.

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>>2293520
It's okay with Abba.

>>2292950
You want to deal with a god going through some guy, a dead guy at that? If I talk to God the Good, I talk directly. And certainly no one stands between us: definitely no one in the cult-religions full of rapists and ped-rapists with their threats from their hateful god that will punish people and children forever.

>>2293528
The narrator IS the speaker. John wants to communicate that he is Jewish so he renders Aramaic words as Ἐβραϊστὶ so as not to confuse his gentile audience.

>>2293529
You can't worship your own father.

>>2293527
I'll just add on to this that the reason it was important that Jesus act like man was to show others the path. How do you follow the footsteps of God? You can't, therefore Jesus took the role of man to guide the way. As man he showed the path that God wants you to walk, as God he sacrificed himself for the sins of all humanity.

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>>2293535
I guess technically He's my Step-Dad.

>>2293540
Same, no person would worship someone else, puri

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>>2293544
We ought to worship our Creator.

>>2293521
The word Aramaic had no weight to John's Gentile audience and would not serve to emphasize the unique Jewish context within which the events he was describing took place.

>>2293540
Adopted Father you mean.

>>2293548
But our own father? Yes, we should worship our creator. But can we worship our own father?

>>2293534
>The narrator IS the speaker. John wants to communicate that he is Jewish so he renders Aramaic words as Ἐβραϊστὶ so as not to confuse his gentile audience.

Except

A) Why does he want to communicate that to his audience?

B) Why bring it up at all?

C) If he does want to prove his Jewish bona fides, why do it with an actual error that does nothing to prove that he's a Judean and in fact argues against it?


Not to mention that I still have no idea what you meant with the whole "Jesus would have quoted in Hebrew to teach Torah" or how that possibly touches in with local place-names and John's identification as such.

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>>2293560
When you become a Christian our Creator becomes your Adopted Father.

>>2293560
When you are the Son of God who do you worship? Father and God are one in the same.

>>2293555
If he is willing to lie for the sole purpose of making things more "Jewish" then he might as well take out all mentions of non-Jews.

>>2293561
It is essential to remember at all times that the Gospels are about Jesus and Jesus was a Jew therefore John is very interested in emphasizing the Jewish context in which Jesus performed his Earthly Ministry which is why he glosses Aramaic words as Ἐβραϊστὶ because as someone pointed out earlier Aramaic was spoken throughout the Near East so it does not carry the same narrative effect to a Gentile audience as Ἐβραϊστὶ does.

>>2293581
>glosses
you mean lie. intentionally saying something false is a lie.

>>2293573
See >>2293157

>>2293568
No, I literally mean our biological father. Desu.

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>>2293447
you also need to look specifically at the King James Bible.

Reasons being:

>Catholic Church

>>2293577
Aramaic and Hebrew are so similar that if equating them for the sake of a foreign audience counts as a lie in your mind then I thank God it will not be you I encounter on Judgment Day.

>>2293586
>>2293601

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>>2293598
>KJV
>Roman Catholicism

>>2293601
they're two completely different languages, anon. there's no "equating" here. this is the same as calling spanish french, which also are two closely related languages

>>2293603
>Jesuit Gunpowder Assassination Attempt
>Utterly no mention of a figure like the Pope in the bible save for revelations as 'False Prophets"
>The great whore is actually the church

>>2293615
please chant it with me: dump that whore, get a boat! dump that whore, get a boat!

>>2293594
Of course. Jesus praying to God the father does not mean he himself is not also God. Read this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

>>2293608
They are in fact not completely different but I won't pretend I am capable of changing your mind on this topic.

However to give you an idea of the level of similarity between them compare the words for "Jew" in both:

Aramaic - Y’huddai
Hebrew - Yehudi

>>2293318
>(after all they are very similar languages)

Why do Christcucks always lie?

Aramaic and Hebrew are closely related, but are very markedly different: the two are mutually unintelligible. It's the equivalent of telling me German and English are similar languages just because they're in the same group: they may be closely related, but they're entirely different.

>>2293621
You're a self convinced fool, carry on with knowing what you think is right.

>>2293623
So we can worship our biological father?

>>2293626
I am aware they have similar vocabulary, as do spanish and french. but they are very much different languages which cannot be "equated". let's go through this again:

telling something false on purpose is a lie
John, according to you, told something false on purpose
therefore John told a lie

either John was a liar or you must admit that the writer of John didn't know the difference between hebrew and aramaic

>>2293631
Lets compare the actual words in question then:

>When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge's seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha).

- John 19:13

>Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha).

- John 19:17

The Aramaic words in question are:

>Gabbatha
>Goltha

Here are their Hebrew equivalents:

>גבתא (Gabbah)
>גולגולת (Golgolah)

If equating those is lying then you are a harsh judge.

>>2293642
>>2293661

>>2293661
those are substantially different, though related, words. now how about this:
english: pessimist
french: pessimiste

now who would call french english?

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>>2293661
So you're cherrypicking some words that sound similar, and then definitely claiming the two languages are similar?

Get fucked, idiot: many languages in the same family group will have similar-sounding words and terms. It doesn't mean they are mutually intelligible, and failing to distinguish between them is pretty much a red flag that whoever was writing this Gospel was ignorant of the actual conditions existing in the region they were claiming to be in.

>"omg, the term for 'water' in German is 'wasser': that means it's basically identical! to English and that the two languages are mutually intelligible!"

Is what you are telling me.

>>2293635
If your biological father is God, yes. If he is not God, no. Easy.

>>2293581

>It is essential to remember at all times that the Gospels are about Jesus and Jesus was a Jew therefore John is very interested in emphasizing the Jewish context

Matthew and Mark are the ones that emphasize the "Jewish Context". John is all about de-emphasizing that, calling Jews followers of Satan and whatnot.

>context in which Jesus performed his Earthly Ministry which is why he glosses Aramaic words as Ἐβραϊστὶ because as someone pointed out earlier Aramaic was spoken throughout the Near East so it does not carry the same narrative effect to a Gentile audience as Ἐβραϊστὶ does.

What "context" does it add? Especially since it's not a name that Jesus gave to these places.

>>2293598

Why should I trouble myself with a translation rather than the Greek?

>>2293661
What's the problem with these two verses again?

>>2293674
John was not interested in denoting the linguistic distinctions between two very closely related Semitic languages to a Gentile audience when he is more concerned with communicating that the events he is describing are occurring within a Ἐβραϊστὶ context. Furthermore, insinuating that the similarity between Aramaic and Hebrew is akin to that between English and French is misleading and unfortunately probably intentional.

>>2293678
>>2293699

>>2293690
The point is that John is singling out the Jews either way and the context it adds is that the Gospel events are the fulfillment Hebrew prophecies concerning the Messiah.

>>2293661

>Lets compare the actual words in question then:

>Goes on to quote KJV.

Greek interlinear or go home. I find it amusing that your "translation", feels a need to cover up the terms that John acutally uses in order to protect what he writes.

Furthermore, just because you could transliterate something from Aramaic to Hebrew, that doesn't mean that it would actually be different in Hebrew. Remember, John gives us the meaning of the words, not just their transliteration.

Take a translation software piece of your choice and put in "Stone pavement" or "Place of the skull", into them, and you won't get anything like גבתא or גולגולת I'm getting things like מדרכת אבן and מקום של הגולגולת myself.

>>2293727
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%99%CE%B2%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%8A%CF%83%CF%84%CE%AF#Ancient_Greek

>in the Hebrew or Aramaic language

>>2293693

The problem is that John claims that the two names given, "Gabbatha" and "Golgotha" are Hebrew words, when they're in fact Aramaic. If John is in fact a native of Judea and probably learned Aramaic as his first language, certainly was exposed to lots of Aramaic speakers, he ought to know the difference between Hebrew and Aramaic.


>>2293716


>The point is that John is singling out the Jews either way and the context it adds is that the Gospel events are the fulfillment Hebrew prophecies concerning the Messiah.

Except

A) He certianly doesn't seem to be interested in winning over Jews

B) You still haven't answered exactly what context his linguistic error adds

C) There are no messianic Hebrew prophecies concerning these places

So again, why add it when it literally gains nothing other than eyebrows raised?

>>2293699
>Furthermore, insinuating that the similarity between Aramaic and Hebrew is akin to that between English and French is misleading and unfortunately probably intentional
english and french are very closely related, but you are right, english doesn't follow the same grammatical rules. however my french spanish example still applies. my point was to show the flaw in equating two languages on some similar vocab, which french and english have much closer cognates than what you showed for hebrew and aramaic

>>2293736
This

>>2293731

>Wiki, whose only actual source of usage is John itself.

Really, can you do no better?

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>>2292950
Cause he loses twice in his own propaganda book. Once to chariots of iron, a second time to the god Chemosh.

He clearly isn't all powerful, the Bible literally has him lose, doesn't matter how much he claims otherwise.

>>2293727
The word for "skull" in Hebrew is גוּלגוֹלֶת which phonetically in English is "Gol-goleth" so to describe "Golgotha" as a Hebrew word is completely reasonable. However as I mentioned earlier I don't think any explanation will satisfy you.

>>2293736
John is interested in winning over everyone and condemning the actions of the Jewish people is a staple of prophetic literature and the context that it adds is that it Jesus is the fulfillment of the Ἐβραϊστὶ prophecies and it's not that those specific places are mentioned it's that the narrator speaks Ἐβραϊστὶ.

>>2293756
>The word for "skull" in Hebrew is גוּלגוֹלֶת which phonetically in English is "Gol-goleth" so to describe "Golgotha" as a Hebrew word is completely reasonable.

No, that is completely unreasonable. As other anons have pointed out, a near-cognate in two similar languages doesn't make them the same and doesn't make the mistaking of such accurate. It would be like saying that because in English it's "Electrical" and in French it's "Electrique", and that's close enough, so when someone says that "The American Institute of Electrique Engineers created the Edison medal in 1923" as an example of English is highly dubious.

You have a lot of Hebrew to Aramaic word pairs that put an "a" phenome at the end in Aramaic that's a soft Tav in Hebrew. Melech (king) becomes Malcah.Chelem (dream) Chalma. Or, in our case, Golgoleth, Golgotha.

It's not an explanation at all, it's just handwaving the essential phonetic drift away. That's not even mentioning how, even if you assume that John's actually trying to give an Aramaic name, he seems to think "Skull" and "Place of the skull", are the same thing, and you haven't even begun to address the other example, when "Stone" in Hebrew is pronounced "eh-ven", and nothing like Gabbatha at all.

>>2293796
If you want to condemn me for believing that the similarity between Hebrew and Aramaic is significant enough to justify John using the word Ἐβραϊστὶ to describe Aramaic words for a gentile audience then I can live with that desu.

I don't have any reason to believe in the cosmology of the ancient Jews. I don't believe that their creation story is true, or that the contract between Abraham and YHVH ever happened.

I know about the worldviews which existed before Judaism, alongside Judaism, and after Judaism. I have no reason to select the Judaic worldview.

Christianity is an extension of the Judaic worldview. Drop mic.

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>>2293973

Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.

>>2292983
And has basically always been wrong,

>>2293052
>evidence
Stop imposing your dogmatism.
>>2293198
You don't have the capacity because it insults your ideology.
>>2293497
t. burger that doesn't understand Christianity
Apokatastasis is a thing, Anon.
>>2293973
it's wrong because my modern statist ideology requires it be

>>2293981
I don't think so, mate.

>>2294001
Except it has.

>>2294002
About what

>>2293682
Can an equal worship another equal?

>>2293142
*Jesus
Who the hell is Iesus?

>>2294044
It's one of Kanye West's nicknames

>>2292950
Yes. For one, there's archaeological evidence of the god of the bible originally being one or two of many gods.

He's not the only one, and the whole monotheism pillar upon which Christianity is built is pretty flimsy.

>>2294125
>archaeology
Irrelevant.

Christianity is monotheist in the sense that it reduces all other beings that may be worshiped to a mere idol.

Take your nonsense elsewhere.

>>2293481
This is why you dont debate religious brainlets. The mental gymnastics they perform are incredible. "Context" when used by religiotards just means "i'm going to cherry pick my beliefs".

Because Spinoza was right.

>>2292950
no longer lend your strength to that which you wish to be free from

>>2294137
>physical evidence contradicting the narrative
>irrelevant

>>2294211
I think his point is that the early conceptions of Yahweh/God don't have any bearing on the truth of what we think of him these days.

Christians could just say that God cleared up the confusion himself through revelation, after all.

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>>2293637
Sorry, but what this anon said >>2294005 is true, an equal WILL NEVER worship an equal, as the acts of worshipping will put the "worshipper" LOWER than the "worshippED".

Thus, they cannot be equal. Thus Jesus is NOT EQUAL with the Father.

desu

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>>2293222
>BEFORE ABRAHAM, I AM
Now that "I am" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi". This 'ego eimi' is NOTHING SPECIAL. Because John the Baptist used the EXACT SAME greek in John 3:28:

"You yourselves testify that I said, '"""""""""""I am"""""""""""" not the Christ,' but, 'I have been sent before him.'"

and multiple place in the bible:

http://biblehub.com/greek/eimi_1510.htm

In Exodus, the greek word 'I AM WHO I AM' is not known. BUT you must agree that it's special right?

IF it's that special, then how come the EXACT SAME greek is used in both verse(John 8:58, 3:28)? And multiple times in the Bible?

So the "I am" in John 8:58 is nothing special.

Agree?

>>2294608
If it's nothing special then why did the Jews take up stones.

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>>2292950
This man.

Essentially, Christianity is a pagan religion so most arguments against paganism can be used against Christianity as well. If you want to become a follower of some religion, you better choose an actually monotheistic one, like Islam, for example (particularly Wahhabi variety of Sunni Islam)

>>2294600
>Thus Jesus is NOT EQUAL with the Father.
But he is. No Christian will deny that.

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>>2293222
>REGARDING I AND MY FATHER (1/2)
Do you even read the context? It the Oneness in purpose, not like a sausage. The Jews at that time are looking for a fight, they ask Jesus to tell them plainly if he really is the Messiah. Jesus said:

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,

26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to me, """""is greater than all"""""; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

30 I and the Father are one.”

In this to see that Jesus and the Father is one in purpose, not like a sausage.

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>>2293222
>>2294666
>REGARDING I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE (2/2)

If you take that into as Jesus claiming divinity then:

John 17
21 that """""""""""all of them may be one"""""""""", Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—

23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

According to your logic, the disciples is also divine. But we never said the Disciples are God, right?

>>2294666
>I and the Father are one.
Seems pretty clear cut to me. Jesus and God are one.

>>2294657
so in Gethsemane Jesus was praying to Himself to "let this cup pass before me, yet not as I will, but as You will"?

bollocks

>>2294687
In a way, yes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

>>2294690
thats the stupidest thing ive ever heard.

Jesus is NOT god. You people are retarded.

>>2294698
Uh that's been Christian doctrine since 325AD, why is it a shock to you that Christians believe Jesus is God? It's like the entire foundation of the religion!

>>2294690
if he and the father are one and have the same intentions, then why would jesus have a will other than that of god's? why would he ask the Father to spare him if he was the Father and their will was one?

hes speaking metaphorically when he says that I am the father are one. And also when he says that anyone who has seen me has seen the father.

>>2294704
>!
first off, kill yourself

second, only sub-protozoa Papist effluvia believe that Jesus is God. Rendre grace a Dieu pour monsieur Luther

>>2294713
Lutherans believe in the Trinity too dude

>>2294722
Well then they are pre-verbal australopithecines as well.

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>>2293222
>IF YOU HAVE SEEN ME YOU HAVE SEEN THE FATHER(1/2)
So? Are you saying that Jesus is the Father? That's blasphemy according to your Church.

Did you read the context? The context says that "Jesus is the way to the Truth", "The Father is doing the works through him", "Follow Jesus".

Does it make sense for Jesus to utter that verse? Out of nowhere? In the middle of his speech? Yes, it's NONSENSE, if you take it literally.

So, what does it mean? It mean that God Truth is with Jesus during his preaching. That's why we should follow Jesus. NOT THAT JESUS IS GOD.

>>2294755
*No, it's NONSENSE

>>2294755
Jesus is God
Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

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>>2294755
>>2293222
>>2294755
>IF YOU HAVE SEEN ME YOU HAVE SEEN THE FATHER(2/2)

John 1:18
"No man hath seen God at any time,"

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time,"

What is this? But wasn't the people see Jesus? According to your logic, if we see Jesus, then we seen the Father. These two verses CLEARLY CONTRADICTS with what you've said.

3 John 1:11
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God"

So, are good people have seen God? Are the evil people can't see God? But wasn't these two groups see Jesus?

No, it didn't LITERALLY mean that. It mean >>2294755.

>>2294769
stop spamming that
I've read it, its a pot of nonsense.

>>2294779
Not really, it's been one of the fundamental doctrines of Christianity for over 1600 years. Spamming random Bible verses is a little bit silly considering the matter has been settled for a very long time. I think we're all well aware of the Islamic heretical view on Jesus Christ, and indeed Ahmed Deedat was rightfully struck down by God for his heresy.

>>2294792
the matter isnt "settled" if there are still people who believe otherwise.

oh, it may be settled among people who believe it, mais non. Thats hardly every Christian

>>2294809
There are 2.4 Billion Christians in the world. Roughly 2.2 Billion of those or 91% of Christians belong to Trinitarian denominations. The Roman Catholic Church. Eastern Orthodox Church, Anglican Church, Lutherans and most other Protestant denominations believe in the Trinity.

If you want to discuss nontrinitarianism it would probably be better to make a dedicated Jehovahs Witnesses thread rather than constantly arguing about the doctrine of the Trinity in Christian threads

>I believe the book that every emperor and king edited will send me to heaven

>>2292950
An IQ two standard deviations above the median, or higher

>>2294881
The earliest copies of New Testament books we have date back to the 2nd century and they read just the same as the copies that we translated from. The idea that the Bible is somehow inaccurate because it's been translated a lot is a bit of a fallacy because they were some of the most reproduced works of that era. There are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts we can cross reference and the number of transcription errors are minimal.

In short we're pretty sure that the modern Bible is pretty close to what the original manuscripts floating around in the 4th century said

>>2294903
Says you.

>o-original doctrines were like this!
sure m8, I just happen to disagree because in personal revelation God told me so.

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>>2294907
>>2294914
>Claim to disbelieve because they're too intelligent
>Make dumbass sarcastic replies when they get schooled
You're really wowing me with your intellect guys. I'm really convinced that you're two bright young scholars and not 15 year old fedora tippers.

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>>2293222
>GLORY THAT I HAD

John 17:5
...glorify me in your presence with THE GOLRY that I had with you before the world began.

If you look at the verse closely, it said
that THE GLORY is with God before the creation of the Earth, NOT JESUS.

Why? Because every preexistence issue regarding all of us preexisted in God's knowledge. The God loved Jesus before creating him and therefore this is the glory that Jesus had with God...

John 17:24

Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

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>>2293222
Interestingly, the two verse before that "glory" verse said:

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, """""""the only true God""""""", and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

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>>2294657
Anon, please, you and I both like to desu desu. Even if you don't agree with me, but please take my argument into consideration.

Don't you think it's strange that Jesus said all of these things? That contradict the Church very teaching?

Don't you think it's strange that all of the verse that says Jesus is divine is from the Epistles? NOT Jesus?

Please take my arguments into consideration, desu.

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>>2294611
If you read that chapter, you'll see Jesus said to the Jews;

John 8:37
I know that you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word.

Look, the Jews are looking for a fight. Why? Because they have strayed from the right path. Jesus was sent to FULFILL the true Mosaic Law, which the Jews are clearly not practicing.

Jesus preach them, but the Jews are arrogant. They're always looking for some reason to kill him. Ever heard of the saying, "if you're looking for a fight, look around the corner".

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>>2294679
Please see >>2294678

"Like them like Jesus and the Father", "Jesus in them AS Jesus with the Father", "ONE with us(the Father and Jesus)".

These are all referring to the disciples. Are the disciples god? Of course not.

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>evidence to disprove God
>evidence
>to disprove

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Whoever that help me, you're my MVP. Thanks.

>>2293226
Ffs, that "banned from the Bible" was an argument against anon that says "All people after the Crucifixion believe that Jesus was crucified."

I never knew that History Channel was a meme. I rarely see that channel, only anime.

this thread turns to pedo anime shit. time to go.

>>2294792
Oh really? How about Jesus then? How about Peter? Was they "rightfully" struck down by God?

That's what you're implying. That every man that have tragic death are evildoer.

>>2295173
Meh, we got more 130 post left

>>2295173
...
......
..........
Fine, I go then. I too want to study the Bible, regarding Jesus Barabbas. It's a very interesting topic.

But yeah, I'm going. Please take my argument into consideration. Sayonara, desu.

>>2294211
>physical evidence
Dude we found a thing thats PROOF THERE IS NO FUCKING GOD HAHA HE FOUND THIS THING
People that don't understand archaeology shouldn't speak about it.
People that do not understand theology shouldn't speak about it.
>>2294214
The ancient Israelites worshiped multiple gods. Then God begun the covenant with them, and all other gods became mere idols.

It does not matter whether they exist or not, because relative to God they are mere idols. They are no better than their statues.

>>2294929
I'm not being sarcastic I'm a mystic who was told to steer away from written manipulations, I dont care either what size of fedora you wear, I'm still going to be a mystic.

>>2293727
>Take a translation software piece of your choice and put in "Stone pavement" or "Place of the skull", into them, and you won't get anything like גבתא or גולגולת I'm getting things like מדרכת אבן and מקום של הגולגולת myself.
To be fair, they could have more than one word for some of those thingsー English has "place", "location", "area", "spot", "site", etc. Not to mention that we're talking about the language as it was spoken some 2000 years ago, whereas the translation software is probably set for the modern language.

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>>2293997
>>evidence
>Stop imposing your dogmatism.
The notion that observation can tell us things about reality is now dogmatic.

>>2296632

>Not to mention that we're talking about the language as it was spoken some 2000 years ago, whereas the translation software is probably set for the modern language.

True all, but let's not forget, גולגולת is one word, a noun, and has no adjective or any sort of place marker in it. And I'm not even sure what the root for גבתא is, but it's not related to any of the ones for rocks or stones I can think of.

I wasn't even trying to suggest that an online translator is the best way to study etymology, it certainly isn't. But to take a Greek text at it's word when it on a facial reading can't even identify the right language and then to come up with mental backflips to justify its pronouncement is even worse, IMO.

>>2296652
Yes, it always has.

The fact that you mock those that disagree with you is proof of your dogmatism.

Reality does not exist, regardless. It's an ideology attached to existence.

>>2297162
>Reality does not exist
Listen to yourself, man! Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?

>>2297162
proof?

>>2297173
>dude you sound le silly so your le wrong xDDD
Go read a book you ideologue.
>>2297175
>you disagree with my popular ideology
>you must be stupid! haha im right your wrong and thats all there is to it!
The definition of dogmatism, right here.

>>2296670
Hebrew and Aramaic are very similar languages and that an author would conflate them for the sake of a foreign audience is a straightforward explanation but of course that won't persuade someone who has already made up their mind.

>>2297182
>you disagree with my popular ideology
>you must be stupid! haha im right your wrong and thats all there is to it!
How is that the same as asking you to prove your idea? It's hilarious how just like many of the most anti-gay pastors have homosexual affairs, the most dogmatic ideologues will accuse others of being the real dogmatics

>>2297191
Stop shitposting, it isn't cool or trendy.
Psychoanalysis isn't cool or trendy either. What are you, a kid that entered a ''''psychology'''' program thinking she'll become unjudgemental and amazing and deep and will get HUNDREDS of dollars an hour for psychoanalyzing people with her AMAZING INTELLIGENCE?

>>2297182
If you deny there is such thing as reality, I cannot argue with you or provide you evidence for or against any claims. I might as well talk to a wall.

>>2297213
>I can't read
Reality is an ideology attached to existence. This is not a complex statement.
>evidence
Another ideology attached to existence. Read a fucking book you ideologue. Nothing I am saying is even unique to the previous century, but rather the 19th and earlier.

>>2297207
furthering the point: you also made an incredibly awful shitpost calling me a shitposter

>>2297231
I don't claim to be something else, though. You, however, are full of pomp.

>>2297187

>Hebrew and Aramaic are very similar languages and that an author would conflate them for the sake of a foreign audience is a straightforward explanation

It is not an explanation. Hebrew and Aramaic are no more linguistically separated than Dutch and German, or pretty much any of the Scandinavian languages, or Russian and Ukranian. In any case, "Conflating them for the sake of a foreign audience" doesn't make them any less of an obvious error. It doesn't even explain anything. Why would John, assuming he does in fact know he's making an error, decide "nah, let's keep it in". What exactly does it elucidate?

>>2297245
Do you have any evidence to support the assertion that the difference between Hebrew and Aramaic is comparable to German and Dutch?

And the context that it adds is that the events are occurring within Hebrew society. As mentioned earlier ITT, Aramaic was spoken throughout the Near East so by describing the words as Hebrew John emphasizes the specifically Jewish context rather than the larger Near Eastern context that Aramaic evokes.

>>2292950
All lies and no proof.

>>2297286
again, also in this thread, if we accept this explanation we must also accept that it is saying something false on purpose, and therefore a lie

>>2297286
>Do you have any evidence to support the assertion that the difference between Hebrew and Aramaic is comparable to German and Dutch?


Sure, both languages have an enormous number of near cognates; such that while they're not mutually intelligible, a native speaker of one can often puzzle out simple sentences in the other.

>And the context that it adds is that the events are occurring within Hebrew society.

How does misidentifying place names tell the reader that events are occurring in a Hebrew society? Especially when you have Jesus wandering around Palestine, talking to native political leaders and high priests?

>As mentioned earlier ITT, Aramaic was spoken throughout the Near East so by describing the words as Hebrew John emphasizes the specifically Jewish context rather than the larger Near Eastern context that Aramaic evokes.

Except the words identified aren't Hebrew! They are quite literally Aramaic words, not Hebrew words. That doesn't "create a Hebrew context", that just makes John look like an idiot.

>>2297223
>Reality is an ideology attached to existence.
If you consider reality as a type of ideology then you are clearly using the word "reality" in a very different sense than is customary.
>>evidence
>Another ideology attached to existence.
If you regard the very concept of EVIDENCE as an ideology/dogma, then it is as I said: It is impossible to argue with you or provide you reason to believe or not believe any given claim, and I might as well be talking to a wall.

>>2297316
That is ultimately a value judgment and it's your prerogative for however rigorous you want to be. If you want to judge conflating the words "Golgotha" (Aramaic) and "Golgoleth" (Hebrew) as a lie then you are free to do so but understand that not everyone is as stringent. Also for "Gabbatha", the Hebrew equivalent is "Gab Baitha" http://biblehub.com/topical/g/gabbatha.htm

>>2297330
Frankly, I don't find an anon on 4chan's personal linguistic theories to be persuasive but perhaps you could link me to scholarly evaluation of the difference between Hebrew and Aramaic?

The place names are not misidentified, there really is a Golgotha and a Gabbatha, what is at issue is whether those words are Hebrew or Aramaic. By calling those words Hebrew John emphasizes the Jewish context in which the Gospel events take place which is essential because Jesus is the fulfillment of the Jewish prophecies.

>>2297334
>If you consider reality as a type of ideology then you are clearly using the word "reality" in a very different sense than is customary.
Reality is not an ideology, it's an ideology attached to existence.

It's the concept of existence with an ideological flare.

I explained this in my very first post even using the word, so you shouldn't be confused. Read a book.
>If you regard the very concept of EVIDENCE as an ideology/dogma, then it is as I said: It is impossible to argue with you or provide you reason to believe or not believe any given claim, and I might as well be talking to a wall.
t. ideologue
>OMG I CANNOT EVEN SPEAK TO U

>>2297389
>That is ultimately a value judgment and it's your prerogative for however rigorous you want to be.
except it's not. I provided a definition of lying. do you disagree with it?

>>2297409
I disagree with the notion that calling "Golgotha" and "Gabbatha" Hebrew is false.

"Golgotha" and "Golgoleth" and "Gabbatha" and "Gab Baitha" are similar enough that to call them Hebrew is justifiable.

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>>2292950
You could be a Muslim.
Or a Jew...

Honestly there's no difference.

>>2297399
>Reality is not an ideology, it's an ideology
wat

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>>2297435
>no incarnation
>no trinity
>no resurrection

3 differences right there scrub

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>>2297428
Jesus fucking christ. Golgotha is literally not hebrew. we've already discussed cognates ITT and how languages have similar sounding words, but that doesn't mean that it's justifiable to call electrique an english word. keep in mind that this is much more similar to electric than golgotha and golgoleth are. the last syllables are completely, fucking different. this doublethink is making me want to bang my head against the wall and yet I can't. stop. replying.

>>2297389
>Frankly, I don't find an anon on 4chan's personal linguistic theories to be persuasive but perhaps you could link me to scholarly evaluation of the difference between Hebrew and Aramaic?


I'm not even sure what you're asking here, you want me to demonstrate that Hebrew and Aramaic are linguistically similar? Are you asking if they're in fact different languages? Are you asking how you can tell the difference between an Aramaic word and a Hebrew one?

For the first, have fun.

https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/saoc67.pdf

For the third, http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/jastrow/

>The place names are not misidentified, there really is a Golgotha and a Gabbatha,

Outside of the Bible, actually there isn't.

> what is at issue is whether those words are Hebrew or Aramaic.

They are Aramaic. There is nobody who claims they're Hebrew. Fuck, you even have translations like the KJV altering John to say "in the Aramaic" because you CAN'T have a mistake in the Gospels.

> By calling those words Hebrew John emphasizes the Jewish context in which the Gospel events take place which is essential because Jesus is the fulfillment of the Jewish prophecies.

You keep saying that. You keep not mentioning how the hell misidentifying his languages helps John at this task. There are no prophecies mentioning these places anywhere else in scripture. And it's Matthew, not John, who is all about how Jesus fulfilled Jewish prophecy.

>>2297399
Let me put it like this: If you consider the very concept of evidence to be a dogma, then how do you have any clue what to believe about the world? Sure, the "evidence" may say that it's raining outside, but if the concept of evidence is a dogma that doesn't mean jack shit and we have no way of having the foggiest idea of whether it's raining.

>>2297455
>>2297458
As I've said for the umpteenth time, Hebrew and Aramaic are similar enough that to conflate them for the sake of a foreign audience is both understandable and justifiable. I get that neither of you agree with that but the point is that this whole debate began over whether John is a reliable witness because he called Aramaic words Hebrew and my argument is that there are explanations for why he would do this that do not undermine his credibility. Of course I'm sure both of you have already decided that John is unreliable and nothing will persuade you otherwise and that's fine but I will continue to provide explanations for why John is reliable for the sake of those who are reading our exchange.

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>>2292950

I simply wish to draw the thread's attention to the fact that in the edgy Generation-X movie Se7en, the edgy serial killer John Doe has an edgy piece of decor: a red neon outline-cross in his very own bedroom, which is very similar to the graphic that the OP posted. That is all.

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>>2297572
>Remember goyim, Christianity is for psycho fundie bible thumpers hehehe

>>2297599
>people like Christianity
>people get spooked when spooky shit happens from thinks they like

see also: killer Santas

>>2293122
>this spamming Muslims again.
Mohamed is not a prophet, but a con artist. He heard demons, not angels, and got people to worship Satan.

>>2293122
>my father is greater than I am
Perhaps because jesus is man and his father is divine.
I cannot kill god, but I could kill physical jesus.

This is objectively not a good argument.

Buddhism is a more attractive religion. Impermanence is realizable from simple observation. I also don't understand why we need grace.

>>2293122
>before Abraham was I AM
>the people then tried to stone him to death for claiming to be God

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>>2297685
>The Eightfold Path consists of eight practices: right view, right resolve, right speech, right conduct, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right "samadhi" (meditative absorption or union).[4]

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For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

>>2297687
Not that anon but >>2294608 and >>2295070

>>2297644
??? He's literally quoting Jesus? Jesus is not satan.

>>2297674
See >>2293145, >>2293157 and more

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>>2297685
Just another set of spooks trying to tell me not to take what is mine

>>2293527
Oh see >>2294978, >>2294755, >>2294775, >>2293527.

>>2293536
Anime-anon makes 7 points against that:

ctrl f "first point" "second point"..."seventh point" in

>>2265770

>>2293527
Oh and also >>2294666 and >>2294678, and also in that chapter, if you read it instead of cherry picking it, you'll see that Jesus refute that he is divine:

By refuting, I mean disclaiming divinity.

Look, John 10( I advised you read the whole chapter):

Jew's accusations:
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus's refutation:
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

If he really is THE Son, if really is divine, then why did he refute them?

>>2297870
In the archive thread I mean

>>2297437
Are you fucking illiterate mate?
>>2297507
>belief should be based off of another's belief
top kek

>>2297870
Anime anon is a Muslim retard and anyone with good sense ignores his propaganda.

>>2292950
There is no reason to believe God exists.

It is intellectually cowardly to do so given what we know, an easy way out of the problem.

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>>2292980
>Quoting Christopher Hitchens unironically

>>2298096
Care to back that claim up?

>>2298087
By using your Bible? By quoting Jesus quote? And you cherry picking others people quote?

John 15:20
Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.'...

And yes, this is what Jesus said.

>>2298104
Evolution is the most reasonable answer to the formation and development of life on this planet.

Not a book which refers to the sky as a solid dome.

If you believe the second over the first you are abandoning reason and logic for an outright proven falsehood, of which there are many as the bible was written by men thousands of years ago, who only knew what men then did.

>>2298087
It's amazing how Christians desperately wants Jesus to be a god that they literally ignores everthing that Jesus said. AnimeAnon literally quoting from the Bible.

Amazing mental gymnastics that you guys have.

>>2298194
>literally ignores everthing that Jesus said
Except the parts that say Jesus is God that he desperately tries to handwave away as being metaphorical. He takes every line where Jesus speaks as man and accepts it straight out and dismisses every line where Jesus speaks as God and claims he meant something else.

The issue is that anime anon is not being honest, he has an agenda and he is pushing the agenda of his heretical and pedophile """prophet""" Muhammad.

He also claims that some lines of the Bible hold more weight than others, which is also heresy since every Christian denomination accepts the Bible, the WHOLE Bible, including the verses that say Jesus id God as the word of God. Why would any Christian push the idea that only some verses in the Bible can be trusted? They wouldn't, again this filthy mudslime is pushing his agenda by trying to cherry pick the parts that support the pedophile Muhammad and ignoring the divine and true scripture which clearly contradicts it.

>>2298130
Please stop strawmanning the majority of Christendom on the world down to some biblethumpers in the USA. The catholic church never saw a conflict between bible and evolution
Refering to the sky as a solid dome? Do you really think that? Do you take all metaphors in a complete literal way? Do you also think that Jesus thought himself of a literal wooden door people can walk through when he said that he was the gate? Wew, lad
Once again, I and at least 90% of Christians in the world dont take the first over the second. THe take them both equally. Check out Franics Collins, the head of the human genome project, on that. And to your last point, thats just a logical fallacy right there. Just because some knowledge is old, doesnt make it any less true

>>2292950
Dont think i could ever be a fan of any abrahimic religion. They've brought some good but they've brought a lot of garbage along with them as well.

>>2298249
Hm, to what exactly does that not apply

>No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
Why does the Bible say Jesus is God if he isn't God? The Bible, is of course, infallible.

>>2298279
i guess that settles it then. i guess we all just forgot the bible was infallible. such an awful brain fart!

>>2298307
Of course it is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_infallibility

>>2298242
Do you accept the 7 books that is thrown out of the Roman Catholic as the word of God?

>>2298242
Amazingly, your God is a pedohile.

Numbers 31:35-40 "[From the captives of war] 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.......of which the tribute for the LORD was 32 [among them were virgin girls]."

Do you accept this as the words of God?

>>2298243
Ok, so you selectively believe the bible. Why? What logic or reason brought you to this conclusion?

>>2298320
See >>2298325

>>2298096
>dude my ideology is better because I SAID SO
>YOUR STUPID FOR NOT FALLING FOR MY IDEOLOGY
>OMG WERE SO SMART WE KNOW THINGS EVEN THOUGH NO DEFINITION FOR KNOWLEDGE EXISTS
>>2298130
>OMG REASON AND LOGIC IS GOOD BECAUSE I SAID SO AND IF OYU DISAGREE YOUR DUMB

>>2298325
I accept the Bible as the word of God

>>2298352
So reason and logic are bad?

>>2298364
Yes.

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>>2298367

>>2298358
The 7 books? The INSPIRED books? Do you accept them?

>>2298328
The bible is not a book written by a single person, its a library written by over at least 40 authors over thousands of years, in bookform. Different parts of the bible are meant to be read differently than others. Some are historical texts and biographies, some symbolical (Like Genesis 1 for example, or the Revelation of John), others even poetry. These parts obviously have to be understood in different ways. The early churchfathers knew that, so why dont you? If a collection of texts would consist both of a talling of Alexander the Greats life and Erlkönig, would you insist that both are meant to be taken as either historical text or both as mere poetry and deny that both have to be taken from different points of view, would that be reasonable?
Im taking Erlkönig here because I couldnt think of a symbolic text containing truth in poetic form on the fly, but you get my point

>>2298371
Yeah, dont take him too serious. Hes either the type of biblethumper I spoke about, a fidelist or a troll

>>2298378

If it is just a collection of books and ancient stories which not a divine text how do you selectively believe in the god it describes while passing off the rest as useful fiction mixed with history?

As for strawmanning, comparing the written history of a man to that of God is absurd.

>>2298376
I have no opinion because it makes no difference to me

>>2298415
Are you incapable of saying yes or no?

>>2298409
Its not fiction, its just symbolic.Please stop reading into me things I havent said. The text still is inspired by God. But how could anyone describe the creation of everything in the old Hebrew language back then? Theyre missing a lot of words! Do they have words for gravititional waves, photons and elements? Those people back then needed salvation too, not a scientifical description of some cosmological type of stuff barely anyone could understand today, If anyone at all. Those texts are written in a way that anyone over the course of millenia could understand the basic message
And its not "just" a collection of some books. It is THE colletion of THE books. I think you got the more sophisticated reading of the bible totally wrong. Youre from an American evangelical background, right?
Comparing the biography of Alexander the Great and Yeshuah of Nazareth is not absurd, mate. But there are differences in how the texts are to be weighed from a historical standpoint, I give you that. For example, the Gospel was written 10 years after the actual happenings, while Alexanders are from 400 years after his death

>>2298430
It doesn't really matter either way

>>2298452
Not that anon, but do you accept the 7 books that is thrown out the Roman Catholic Bible as the word of God?

>>2298460
Havent looked too much into that topic to have a definite opinion, sorry

>>2298465
*enough instad of too much

>>2298455
HAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA

As I fucking thought, you have the audacity to accuse of anime anon of putting Jesus words higher than any other verse, while the EXACT SAME thing that you are doing to the Roman Catholic Bible?

Laughable.

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>>2298469
>Implying
Nice try

>>2298465
I'm assuming you're not Catholic. Don't you think that the act of taking those books out is the highest treason against the Bible?

Those authors of the books were INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit. What makes those books thrown out if those books are "collection of THE book"?

Are you with me in saying that the Christians Scholars are committing blasphemy?

>>2298482
The Quran has been changed and edited hundreds of times, compared to that the Bible as a Holy Book has remained relatively unchanged throughout the years which is remarkable.

>>2298476
Hey, Jesus said;

Matthew 7
1 not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

You have the audacity to accuse anime anon, while you're doing the EXACT SAME THING? Fucking hypocrite.

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>>2298490
>Being so desperate to make your shitty canned argument you try to put words in my mouth to make it

>>2298487
Ah yes, the good old "changing the topic" argument. Used in most desperate situation. I'm an Arian dummy.

7 BOOKS

B
O
O
K
S

>remarkably unchanged
Hahahahaha

>>2298497
>Literally incapable of saying yes or no

>>2298501
>Being part of a denomination that got rejected as heresy over 1600 years ago
Might as well be a Jehovahs Witness if you want to be part of a meme religion

>>2298506
>Refusing to accept those 7 books
Heresy. blasphemy. THOSE ARE FROM GOD.

>>2298520
>Arian talking about blasphemy
kek

>>2298452
>The text still is inspired by God.

Why do you think this? Have you not considered they may simply be a collection of mans creation myths from that part of the world? Every early society had their own stories about creation, how is yours any better than the innumerable other ones?

The excuse about mans limited language has no merit. The creation story in Genesis is not anywhere reasonably close to what likely happened. Or do you imagine they didn't have words for big and bang?

>>2298527
>NOT ACCEPTING THE WORDS OF GOD
Lol

>>2298497
>>2298476
THANKS FOR THE IMAGE

>>2298535
You do realize the Bible says Jesus is divine right? You're complaining about missing books when the canon every single denomination accepts says in black and white that Jesus is God. Do those missing books say "Just kidding, he really isn't the son of God". No? Then why are they even relevant?

>>2298540
No no no, I'm arguing that it is true that anime anon put Jesus words higher higher that others words, people accused him of blasphemy. When the EXACT SAME thing that the Christians are doing with those 7 books.

What makes the Christians then? Hypocrites, right?

Anyway the terms "son of God", God call David the "begotten Son of God". But is David really a God?

>>2298565
People accused him of blasphemy because he's a super annoying Muslim shill parroting Ahmed Deedat in every single Christian thread.
If you're agreeing with a guy who follows what the Bible clearly names a false prophet, doesn't that make you start to wonder you might just be wrong?

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>>2298589
You're probably the same guy who said that modern biblical scholarship is taking after Islam for this same general idea

>>2298589
He literally quoting Jesus. You dare calling Jesus blasphemy?

>>2298600
Nah, I'm only came here as an Arian.

>>2298608
>He literally quoting Jesus
Quoting Jesus. Interpreting Jesus deliberately wrong in order to twist his words to fit the Islamic narrative.

And I don't mind debating as long as both parties are being intellectually honest. Anime anon is not, he posts the exact same screed every thread insisting that his personal interpretation of Jesus words proves him right while dismissing all the parts of the Bible that prove him wrong. It's not really an argument at that point, it's just regurgitating Islamic propaganda and dismissing the Christian argument out of hand.

The point is that the Trinity has been accepted Christian dogma since the very first ecumenical council, and more than that it's been accepted every since. I don't see the point of trying to argue against it when the arguments against it have to rely on the idea that some parts of the Bible are somehow lying or false, which is of course not an argument that Christians can accept since we also hold that the Bible does not tell falsehoods.

So tell me, exactly what are we arguing here? Are you trying to convince me the Bible has false passages? That over 1500 years of accepted Christian theology is wrong, and it's wrong coincidentally in exactly the way that would support Islamic doctrine? This is pointless.

>>2298651
>dismissing all parts of the Bible
Again, Christians do the exact same thing to those 7 books.

He put Jesus words higher than anyone. Which we should all do. Remember, "the servants are not greater than the master".

>personal interpretation
Yeah, sure bud. Are you saying that Jesus is talking ambiguosly? Or is he the type of man that straight out unambiguously saying what is meant to say?

See >>2293122 >>2293130 >>2293145 >>2293157

Literally straight out saying he is not divine.

>do not hold falsehood
>false passage
You know about ancient bible manuscripts? Out of thousands, literally no two are identical.

Do you know those 7 books? Thrown out because it's a fabrication, by Christians scholars.

You know 1 John 5:7? Where it says about Trinity? Thrown out from the Bible as fabrication, according to most ancient Bible manuscripts.

Who do this? Christians scholars, not anyone else.

>>2298741
>Literally straight out saying he is not divine.
Speaking as man, as he is both fully man and divine. Are you suggesting Catholics and Orthodox have been interpreting scripture incorrectly for hundreds of years? Even Protestants accept the doctrine of the trinity. If your interpretation is correct and Jesus was saying straight up he isn't divine then why didn't Luther take the opportunity to set the record straight when he schismed? Or Calvin?

What are your beliefs as an Arian? If you don't respect the Bible or Christian doctrine exactly what shapes your faith?

>>2298766
>Are you suggesting Catholics and Orthodox have been interpreting scripture incorrectly for hundreds of years?

Not that guy, but it's not outside of the realm of possibility. Social institutions have a way of reinforcing beliefs and patterns of behaviour, and when you're dealing with something completely non-empirical that can't be effectively proven or disproven by any means, it's not at all unbelievable that a major institution of power could preserve a central dogma point like that.

Your entire argument here is just an argumentum ad populum with no deeper substance.

Debate the actual doctrine, don't rest on the opinions of others.

>>2298741
>Or is he the type of man that straight out unambiguously saying what is meant to say?
Why do you think there are countless Protestant denominations? They all split when they can't agree on how the Bible should be interpreted. It's not a simple matter, why do you think Bible study exists? It's one of the most complex texts ever created. To think that it is straightforward and easy to understand is doing it a great disservice considering it has been around for 1500 years and it is still hotly debated about exactly how scripture should be interpreted.

>>2298783
>Debate the actual doctrine
Hard to do when we can't even decide what 'doctrine' is. As far as I can tell he's just saying the Bible is lying, at which point we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

>>2298786
Does the Holy Spirit does that? If you ask them, all of them claiming to have the Holy Spirit. Why does the Holy Spirit guide them to different directions? Instead of one? Are they lying? No, because they said that the Holy Spirit is with them.

So why are the Holy Spirit guide them in all different directions? Literally why?

I tell you why, Trinity isn't from God. If it is, then it shouldn't be confusing. According to:

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion...

But we all know this is not the case for Trinity, exactly according to your post. Thus Trinity is not from God.

>>2298798
I don't say that. I'm saying that the Bible isn't preserved in it's original state. Reason? See >>2298741.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT ALL THE BIBLE IS A LIE. I'm just saying that the Jesus's words are more preserved than any other verses.

>fully god fully man
Look, if he is fully god, then why did Jesus do this >>2297889?

>>2298960
>>2298766
Oh, and and to add. In the OT. People are even called "God" and "son of God".

If OT describes them as gods, then why do the Jews find fault in Jesus to claim that he is just merely "son of God"?

Seeing Jesus refute the claim to be divine, it is clear that he is NOT.

>>2298766
>fully god fully man
Impossible. Why? Because they're literally the exact opposite.

Immortality and mortality is the EXACT OPPOSITE. Jesus died. Thus Jesus is mortal, thus NOT god.

If he is fully god, then literally why he did all of this >>2293467? God pray? God fear? God calling someone "My God"?

Fully god do all of this? An "equal" to the Father?

>>2298766
>fully god
According to the Church, Jesus is begotten. Which "literally" means brought into existence.

Thus have a beginning. Thus not a god. Thus not fully god.

>>2298766
Matthew 19:17:
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God...

Why do you call Jesus god? When Jesus himself denied that he is good.

When Jesus himself that there is only ONE good, that is god.

Jesus denied being good, this denying to be God.

Humble man just like all the prophets.

Also see >>2294987

>>2298960
>I'm just saying that the Jesus's words are more preserved than any other verses.
That's retarded though. You realize the the words Jesus spoke were written by the authors of the gospels as well right? You can't separate them. The gospels are not a transcript written as Jesus preached, they were given to the authors of the gospel by the Holy Spirit as was the rest of it. If you trust the Holy Spirit to have guided the authors of the gospels to correctly pass on Jesus words then why don't you trust the rest of their words? There is no difference and arbitrarily trying to draw a line between Jesus words and the rest of the gospels is flawed logic.

>>2299034
>According to the Church
According to the Church Jesus is God.

>>2298960
>Thus Trinity is not from God.
But it is. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Of course the Trinity is from God. Who says otherwise? Pedophile Muhammad? Haha, why would you listen to a false prophet? He is a liar and a fraud. If you want to know the truth of Jesus Christ listen to the people who follow him.

>>2299056
And your God is a pedophile >>2298326?

>>2299056
>>2299053
>>2299051
Meh, no argument whatsoever, see >>2293167.

>>2299064
I'm very sad you choose to believe a liar, a fraud a false prophet who tricked people into thinking he was special when all he did was enrich himself. Why do you continue to blaspheme and doubt the divinity of Jesus Christ? Because you believe a liar of a prophet?

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is divine and part of the Holy Trinity. You should stop lying and spreading satans message and realize the truth.

>>2299068
The Church, infused by the Holy Spirit, stating that the trinity is fact is not an argument? The Bible stating Jesus is God is not an argument? Jesus Christ himself saying he is God is not an argument? Please repent and stop lying to yourself. Stop falling for propaganda by a pedophile prophet.

Ah yes, the good old "satan, blasphemy, hell, false prophet". Used in most desperate of situation. Delicious. And you know what the irony is, your God is a pedophile. Jesus kills little children.

I'm Arian dumbass. How many times do I homave to say.

>>2299071
>>2299051
>>2299077
Then why does Christians scholars took out those 7 books?

Are they not the word of God?

>>2299077
See >>2299064

>>2299094
*to say

>>2299094
>I'm Arian dumbass
Bullshit you lying sack of shit. You call the Bible lies, you have no respect for Christian doctrine or tradition. In what way are you Christian? How do you follow Christ?

>>2299098
Yes. In what way?

Ezekiel 18
20The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die.

22None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live.

The good will go to heaven, the evil will go to hell. If you repent, God will forgave your sins.

What original sin? The son doesn't bear the iniquity of the father.

This is only fair and just religion.

What? You want to say that Hitler go to heaven? Just for believing in Jesus? After all he did? Bullshit.

>>2299098
>In what way I'm a Christians
Believing in Jesus as the Messiah and there is only one God, the Father. Not Jesus. Jesus is a prophet, like Moses.

Peter described perfectly:

Acts 2:22
"Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a """""man""""" accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Literally perfect description of a prophet.

>>2299119
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

You just pick and choose which parts you believe in I take it

>>2299127
The same can be said to you my dear anon.

>>2299127
Oh and also, are my parts contradicting your parts? Can a Bible verses contradict each other? Seems like it since your and mine verse says the EXACT OPPOSITE.

>>2299137
Not really, I believe in the Bible in it's entirety, I just don't bend over backwards to try and justify why the passages that say Jesus is God are wrong and others that confirm my view are true. The interpretation held by the Church fathers, those imbued with the Holy Spirit.

When the Bible says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." it feels good to just be able to take it at it's word instead of blubbering excuses about how that part isn't true, or that's not actually what the AUTHOR really mean.

It's also nice to understand that Jesus words were written by the authors of the Gospels and are part of them, not separate, and are part of the overall message given to the authors from the Holy Spirit so they may transcribe the Word of God in full.

I don't really understand the mentality of someone who can look at 1500 years of rock solid theology, supported by generations of priests who spent their entire lives uncovering the truth from the Bible, from Roman Catholics, to Orthodox, to Protestants all coming to the same conclusion and say "Nah, I think I've got the right of it after a year of reading the Bible."

>>2299143
Only if you don't understand that Jesus was fully man and fully God. Do you understand the importance of why he spoke as a man? Because he was serving as an example, you're supposed to follow in his footsteps. The fact that he acted like man was crucial to his purpose because he's saying "This is how God wants you to be, follow in my footsteps"

If Jesus wanted to be an example to all mankind how would he do that as a God? You can't follow in Gods footsteps, can you?

They aren't contradictions when you're reading property. This is why it is important that only those imbued with the Holy Spirit interpret the Bible because otherwise you have people like yourself who think you can understand it like a basic literary text and interpret it completely backwards

>>2299172
>They aren't contradictions when you're reading property.
>there are no contradictions in the Quran, merely continued revelation and abrogation

>>2299217
I thought you were an Arian friend :^)

Also the Quran makes it pretty clear that Muhammad was an opportunist who used his authority to do whatever the fuck he wanted

>Gets caught cheating on his wife with a slave
>Uhhhh, it's cool, Allah told me I could do it!

Gotta have fucking rocks in your head to ignore how blatant it is

>>2299162
>rock solid theology
Do you even read about Great Schism?

>don't need to bend
I can also say the same, according to this anon >>2293122 >>2293130 >>2293145 >>2293157.

And you know what the irony is? This is all Jesus words. Not someone else.

Your verses are literally what other people said about him.

>Holy Spirit
Then do you accept those 7 books? That are inspired by Holy Spirit?

>contradiction
See >>2298741 in the "false passage" section

>this is how God wants you to be
This is how God want us to behave, to behave like Jesus. Literally nowhere that it said that Jesus is God.

>>2299227
I'm not anime-anon, although I do also think he's probably actually Muslim. I'm pointing out the inconsistency of handwaving away all the extremely clear and blatant contradictions in one holy book, while simultaneously failing to excuse them in another from an external viewpoint.

>>2299244
Which holy book?

>>2299244
The problem is that there are actually no contradictions from a Christian perspective. The Bible has been around for a long time and tens of thousands of scholars have poured over it and debated it every week of every month of every year since the canon was decided. Do you really think you're bringing up anything that hasn't been addressed before? You can go to your local Catholic Church and ask the Bishop. I assure you that you will not bring up any point they themselves have not discussed a thousand times before. It's probably the only way you'll be convinced that any 'holes' you think you see have been explained away 500+ years ago.

>>2299249
The Bible and the Quran, though at this point you'd probably say something like only one of those is "Holy," which would restart the conversation back a few steps until we get back to the point where any inconsistencies/mistakes in the Bible are excused but the same charity isn't extended elsewhere.