Spartans

>>2288266
>why won't this meme die off already

Because they quite literally spread the meme themselves, the Spartan mirage was perpetuated so effectively that centuries later Roman era authors would write about how awesome they allegedly were, and modern people would read them in turn and worship them.

>>2288273
>>2288266

They were superior people. Their way of life produced more abler men, but it depended on slavery to survive, it was not a self sustaining system.

If there is any greek military to admonish it would be Alexander's Macedonian army

>>2288266
All of Greece admired Spartan soldiers and Brasidas conquered half of the Athenian empire starting with 100 troops. They just really had a huge problem with demographics and were mostly outnumbered in most defeats

this isn't entirely true

at their peak, Sparta was pretty much unbeatable, but the problem is that peak didn't really last that long, so their military "domination" was only a blip in ancient greek history

>>2288282
This,

what people have to understand is Sparta was always numerically disadvantaged in many of the battles and wars they fought

but individually they were much greater soldiers than their neighbors

perspective and context is important people

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This stupid meme was started by the faggot Stephen pressfield whose book is used as US military recruitment propaganda for dumb American an teenagers who want to be marines.

>>2288276
>They were superior people. Their way of life produced more abler men

The only source for 90% of that shit is Plutarch, who was taken in by the memes. No. Spartans did not only drink broth and use iron bars for currency. They took Persian money to destroy the Athenians.

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>>2288276
>most of your population forced into slavery because they wernt fit enough

>they were a superior people

>>2288282
>>2288292
Not being able to make up for your numerical disadvantage objectively makes you worst. Athenians or Macedonians won battles both with numerical advantage and disadvantage.

>>2288305

I was referring to their psychology, they prepared the scope of their being, above any people.

Psychologically, they were superior people, but their system was not self sustaining and collapsed under the weight of the entanglements they were embroiled in.

>>2288305
>They took Persian money to destroy the Athenians.
As they couldn't compete with their fleet but the Peloponisian league had stomped the Spartas in Sicily and by land. Also Athens asked for Persian money they just didn't get it as Persia preffered a weaker naval base city state to dominate Greece

>>2288311
>should we have more kids
>nah, don't want to split up the family wealth and end up as proles
>entire culture shrinks until it's the ancient equivalent of a theme park

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>>2288307
But you're a fucking retard.

>>2288311
Yes. Spartan society was unsutainable but they were still great soldiers and tacticians. Pericles had to create a complex strategy to stop Sparta from destroying Athens.

>>2288317
>Spartas
Athenians

>>2288325
>BUILD WALL

Complex strategy

>>2288325
If you're just trying to prevent people for counter-memeing, I'm with you. Let's not assume that Spartans were shit at everything out of contrarianism.

Let's not assume either that the ancient memes about Sparta were true at all, tho.

>>2288335
Not just that. He allocated all war respurces in joining the port with the city and had to reform the Athenian foreign policy as a whole . When Pericles felt Athens almost felt to Sparta twice as Brasidas cracked through Pericles scheme (he died before cutting most supply lines to Athens) before just getting annihilated by Lysander. The Peloponisian wars as a whole showed that democracy should be ban during war and that Sparta was simply superior to Athens military wise specially tactically

>>2288357
Lmao no. Where did you learn this? TV?

>>2288362
I have read about this. Athens could never cracked on Spartan holdings while Sparta could crack through Athenian holdings and conquer their allies all the time. After the expedition in Sicily the war was more than over

>>2288369
Kind of ignored how the Athenians were winning until Alcibiades betrayed them.

>>2288380
>Kind of ignored how the Athenians were winning until Alcibiades betrayed them.
They weren't winning. Sparta just lost all their holdings in a peace treaty that shouldn't have happened and if the king just sent reinforcements to Brasidas he could have crippled Athens economy a lot. Alcibiades betrayed Athens because they were going to kill him for no reason which shows how inneficient direct democracy in times of war. But even then the Athenian host at Sicily was 50k men strong while Alcibiades fled with barely 2000 man. The Athenians just chose a super risky move in times of peaces that all knew that would last less than 5 years

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>>2288406
>Muh brasidas could have won if...

Nice meme there kiddo

>>2288418
Brasidas was winning his campaign while Cleon was recieving reinforcements. Which forced him to attack him before recieving reinforcements which killed him at the end. Sparta refused to take Athens when the plague spreeded and made a lot of dumb moves throughout all the fucking comflict and they still managed to come on top most of the time.

>>2288276
Every ancient culture had slavery.

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>>2288431
Those Spartans sure were winning so much they needed a peace treaty.

I wonder why?

>>2288449
>they needed a peace treaty.
Sparta offered a peace treaty to Athens after the war was basically over and Lysander was tearing through them. In Sparta there were two kings and most of the time one of those kings preffered to stabilizing their possesions rather than pushing their victories into strategic advantages

>>2288458
You heard it here first, folks - Spartans wanted a peace treaty because they generally don't like winning.

>>2288467
No. They just had lots of internal problems. They recalled lots of soldiers from Tracia to kill 2000 slaves. Sparta wasn't as stable as Athens and couldn't afford extremelly long campaigns without the possibility of a slave revolt which made their kings paranoic for a good reason. Sparta's society was disfunctional but they were better warriors than Athenians

>>2288497
>"Better warriors"

>Society dysfunctional

Still lose to Thebes, Macedon, and Rome.

Fuck this gay meme

>>2288535
>Still lose to Thebes, Macedon, and Rome.
Yes as their population was shrinking. Men could only reproduced when they were 30. Most of their labour were slaves and lots of potential citizens were killed at birth.

>>2288550
Sounds like their city state was crap anon

>>2288266
Spartan society is essentially a dystopian young adult novel setting. They were the North Korea of Greece.

>>2288563
It was. Still they were pretty good soldiers and they produced some really bright commanders

>>2288607
Name a "bright" spartan commander plz

>>2288615
Brasidas

>>2288266
>also left women in control in parts of the government
>would let stronger men fuck their wives

>>2288655
Literally quasi treacherous scum who almost lost the war single-handed with his retardation

>>2288615
lysander?
I mean they werent retarded and actually because of their militaristic lifestyle produced quality generals

>>2288666
>who almost lost the war single-handed
How? He buttfucked Cleon and his host was pretty fucking small and basically stomped the Athenians in every battle.The peace treaty was just sloppy,Athens chimped out and if Sparta just sent him more troops he could have conquered Thrace. He had alredy conquered half of it anyways.

>>2288305
>The only source for 90% of that shit is Plutarch
>>HURR who is Xenophon

>>2288441
But those culture's weren't dependent on slavery. Slavery in places like Athens and Rome were just supplemental to the economy, in Sparta their society would collapse without the Helots who did most of the menial and necessary work of the state.

>>2288357
>The Peloponisian wars as a whole showed that democracy should be ban during war

Athens' strength was its Thetic democracy, and their greatest victories (Cimon's campagins, Pylos, Cleon's defeat of Brasidas) where won under the democracy. Thucydides hyped up the oligarchy, but the second Athens started winning again they went back to democracy because they knew the only way they could win their wars was by rewarding the thetes that fought them with political power.

>>2288449
Because the Athenians had the cream of the Spartan aristocracy as hostages. If ISIS captured a plane load of US Senator's sons their air strikes campagin would be over before you could say semper fie.

>>2290270
>Athens' strength was its Thetic democracy, and their greatest victories (Cimon's campagins, Pylos, Cleon's defeat of Brasidas) where won under the democracy
Cleon didn't beat Brasidas. Also the execution of the 8 best commanders and admirals and the expedition to Sicily were under democracy