Is there something inherent about this religion

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Sahih International: The bedouins are stronger in disbelief and hypocrisy and more likely not to know the limits of what [laws] Allah has revealed to His Messenger. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

Pickthall: The wandering Arabs are more hard in disbelief and hypocrisy, and more likely to be ignorant of the limits which Allah hath revealed unto His messenger. And Allah is Knower, Wise.

It goes back to their origins

Muhammad was a pedophile war lord

Jesus was a hippie

To me Islam has always been like the shitty sequel nobody wanted.
It's like terminator 3, while judaism and christianity would be 1/2

>>2275081
>thousands
>christianity is only about 2000 years old
More like hundreds of years. Maybe because it's hundreds of years not as old.

>>2275114
It's definitely older than 2000. I'm not sure by how much. But definitely older than 2000.

>>2275106
>Some apocryphal accounts state that at the time of her betrothal to Joseph, Mary was 12–14 years old, and he was ninety years old, but such accounts are unreliable.[56] According to ancient Jewish custom, Mary could have been betrothed at about 12.[57] Hyppolitus of Thebes claims that Mary lived for 11 years after the death of her son Jesus, dying in 41 AD.[58]

>>2275081
>it seem like its thousands of years behind Christianity when it comes to human rights and progressive values?

But it isn't.

>>2275081
What is Islamic golden age?

>>2275121
>Some apocryphal accounts

>>2275416
In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.

In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.

In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.

This anon >>2273933

>>2275081

modern wahhabism

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>Matt. 19:4—And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

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>Mark 10:8—And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

>>2275465
>Post 1: Trying to make Mary and Aisha closer in age.

>Post 2: Saying kings took lots of wives.

Try to make sense at least once dude.

Those captive women were MARRIED to citizens so that the tribes wouldn't go EXTINCT.

So dumb. So islamic.

>>2275416
Exodus 21:7-11
7. "If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
8. "If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her.
9. "If he designates her for his son [Note: "his son" means that the master is either her father's age or even much older!], he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters.
10. "If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.
11. "If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

First of all, did the daughter have any choice to be sold off by her father, married off by her master to either himself or his son? No!

Also, the fact that the master can either marry her or marry her off to his son, means that MOST LIKELY, SHE IS HIS DAUGHTER'S AGE and younger than his son!! So he's probably at least 30+ years older than her. Yet, he himself (her father's age or even MUCH older) can marry her

>>2275416
>>Some apocryphal accounts
That does describe the hadiths pretty well.

>>2275081
>thousands of years behind Christianity when it comes to human rights and progressive values

It's only 40 years behind Christianity when it comes to these issues

>>2275081
it's pretty much same as christianity.

>>2275081
Because Christianity has been watered down and re-interpreted 1000 times

Meanwhile, Muslims keep to their religion and abhor innovation. Mashallah, God's law was not meant to be changed

And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. (Leviticus 15:9)

>Because of the continual bleeding, the woman would have been continually regarded in Jewish law as a niddah or menstruating woman, and so ceremonially unclean. In order to be regarded as clean, the flow of blood would need to stop for at least 7 days. Because of the constant bleeding, this woman lived in a continual state of uncleanness which would have brought upon her social and religious isolation.[5]

”But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.”

>>2275496
"If a man takes a wife and, after laying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, 'I married this woman but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,' then the ((((((((((girl's father and mother shall bring proof)))))))) [how do you think they would do that?] that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl's father will say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity.' Then her parents shall display the cloth [[[[[[[[[[the father would literally stick his two fingers covered with a piece of cloth into his daughter's vagina before she gets married and keep that bloody cloth for as long as his daughter is married]]]]]]]]] with before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 22:13-18)"

>>2275530
>re-interpreted 1000 times

So has been Islam

>>2275530
Neither of these things are true, however. Christianity and Islam both have been re-interpreted several times throughout their history, and it was never in any one direction. Furthermore, Islamic law's very foundation rests on the belief that God could change his law and had brought a better one than what he'd given the Jews.

>Matt. 19:8—He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

>>2275544
Anon pls, the Bible is at least 400 years from Jesus while the Quran is like 30-40 years after Muhammad.

It's less the religion and more the people. What's worse, a lot of modern liberal ideals are seen as too European which forces Middle Easterners into a religious shell, ironically adopting anti-liberal European ideals and casting off traditional Islamic values that have more in common with liberalism than they'd like to admit.

>>2275562
And?

>>2275562
The Bible is only about 40-50 years after Jesus.

>Mark 6:18—For John had said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother's wife.

"'Moses, a Jew, apparently married a black African and was approved by God.

We learn in Numbers that 'Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married, for he had married a Cushite woman' (Num. 12:1). A Cushite is from Cush, a region south of Ethiopia, where the people are known for their black skin. We know this because of Jeremiah 13:23: 'Can the Ethiopian [the same Hebrew word translated “Cushite” in Numbers 12:1] change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.' Attention is drawn to the difference of the skin of the Cushite people.'"

>>2275567
What is surviving copies?

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>>2275543
Sorry, but it doesn't say that the father STICK FINGERS INSIDE HER DAUGTER'S VAGINA, maybe a rod or something?

>>2275465
>>2275121
>>2275506
Also, damn. Based Bible is full of sex fuckery.

>The Israelites invited Gideon to become their king and to found a dynasty, but he refused, telling them that only God was their ruler (Judges 8:22-23). G. A. Cooke, writing in the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges notes the discontinuity between Ephraimite anger towards Gideon shown in Judges 8:1-3 and the proposition of kingship over [all] Israel, and therefore concludes that "these verses appear to come from a [secondary] source".[14]

>Gideon went on to make an ephod out of the gold won in battle, which eventually caused the whole of Israel again to turn away from God yet again. Gideon had 70 sons from the many women he took as wives. He also had a Shechemite concubine who bore him a son whom he named Abimelech (which means "my father is king") (Judges 8:31).

>Abimelech and a hired group of "worthless and reckless men" (Judges 9:4) went to the house of Gideon in Ophrah to kill the seventy sons of Gideon, Abimelech's brothers. They were killed systematically ("on the same stone"),[9] but only one brother escaped, Jotham.[1][5] Methodist writer Joseph Benson notes that "as a stone was sometimes used for an altar, (1 Samuel 6:14), some have conjectured from hence, that Abimelech intended to make his brethren a great victim to Baal, in revenge of the sacrifice of the bullock prepared for Baal, (Judges 6:25), and to expiate the crime of Gideon, as these idolaters accounted it, by the sacrifice of all his sons".[10]

>>2275543
I heard that the Mosaic law allow the father to do 'digital defloweration' on their daughter.

Genesis 19:1-9

1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
HERE WE CAN SEE THAT THE BIBLE SAY THAT LOT SAY TO HIS PEOPLE THAT THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO HIS TWO DAUGHTERS!!!

2- "Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 31:17-18)"

KILL THEM ALL

>>2275081
1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.

BABIES THAT STILL SUCKLING ARE KILLED

>>2275081
Psalm 137:8-9
8 O daughter of Babylon, O destroyed one, O the happiness of him who repayeth to thee thy deed, That thou hast done to us.
9 O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock!

DASHING LITTLE CHILDREN AGAINST ROCK

>>2275081
Judges 21: 10-12

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

KILL EVERYONE INCLUDING WOMEN AND CHILD! KILL THEM ALL!

>>2275081
Judges 21:19-24
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

LEGALIZED RAPE! KIDNAP FROM LOVED ONE!

>Trying to denounce Christanity with the OLD testament

Wut

>>2275081
Numbers 31:17-18
They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

KILL ALL THE CHILDREN! TAKE VIRGINS AS SEX SLAVE!

Christianity had an Enlightenment

Islam did not

>>2275759
"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I WILL STRIKE HER CHILDREN DEAD . Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (From the NIV Bible, Revelation 2:22-23)"

JESUS STRIKE INNOCENT CHILD DEAD

STRIKE
INNOCENT
CHILD
DEAD

KILL THAT CHILD

GOD KILLING AN INNOCENT CHILD

PRINCE OF PEACE KILL AN INNOCENT CHILD

SON OF GOD KILLING AN INNOCENT CHILD

>>2275585
We have the qur'an from the time of abu bakr, first khalif. Thus, oldest surviving quran is from within 10 years of the death of the prophet pbuh.

>>2275794

>Revelations as anything more than a metaphor for the Imperium over Jereselum

Whoa there Protestant! Let's crack open that catechism every once in a while, yeah?

Wahhabism/Salafism is the problem.

>>2275794
>>2275794
>>2275794
I WILL STRIKE HER CHILDREN DEAD

I WILL STRIKE HER CHILDREN DEAD

I WILL STRIKE HER CHILDREN DEAD

I WILL STRIKE HER CHILDREN DEAD

>>2275815

Those children being the puppet states set up by the Romans across the Mediterranean.

>>2275794

We live in a world where rape is common in nature. From God's point of view, Death is meaningless and time spent on Earth is incomparable to the afterlife. So what if there is some suffering before we get to the afterlife? So what if God had to have the Israelites smite their enemies just to survive as his chosen people? These stories do not disprove God, but is further proof that he would have Christ suffer for the sins of the many.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. . . .

>>2275821
HAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAH

JUSTIFYING THE KILLING OF INNOCENT CHILD! CHILD! WHO DID NOTHING WRONG!

>>2275828
JUSTIFYING THE KILLING OF INNOCENT CHILDREN

I stop now

>>2275759
Oh, before I leave. Here:

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

So yeah, Jesus uphold these brute verses.

>>2275465
The kuran basically takes the parts of the bible that even confederates or nazis would use to defend their beliefs

>>2275855

And ordered those wicked arabs genocided.

>>2275855
>come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them bu

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Holy shit, who the fuck actually argues that The Law as defined by Jesus is the Old Testament?

>>2275861
Not that Anon but the Quran uphod that the Bible now is not the original.

Reason? Well that anon made it pretty clear. The prophets will NEVER do something so barbaric. Jesus will NEVER kill an innocent child. And others that anon points out.

>>2275874
See >>2275681

"There were, of course, others who might examine accused brides. Dwyer, 63, notes the role of doctors in modern Morocco. In pre-modern times this role was performed by midwives (see Westermarck, Marriage Ceremonies in Morocco, 229f.; Marcus, p. 324. M. Friedman, Ribbui Nashim Beyisra'el [Tel Aviv: Mosad Bialik etc., 1986], 169-170, 263). According to the Midrash Hagadol, Isaac himself examined Rebekah digitally before their marriage (Midrash Hagadol to Genesis 24:67 [ed. M. Margulies; Jerusalem: Mosad Harav Kook, 1967, 411]; according to Pirke Rabbi Eliezer, chap. 16, p. 38a, the examination consisted of digital defloration [ref. courtesy of my colleague, Prof. Judah Goldin]). According to the aprocryphal Book of James, sec. 19-20, Mary was likewise examined digitally for virginity by Salome (New Testament Apocrypha, ed. E. Hennecke & W. Schneemelcher, 385; ref. courtesy of Prof. Tikva Frymer-Kensky and my colleague Prof. Robert A. Kraft)."

???

>>2275875
The Quran says exactly the opposite; that it is the Word of God as given to God's prophets.

Your ridiculous hadiths say "oh no bible corrupted" without any evidence whatsoever, and in the face of overwhelming textual criticism of the bible. And all at the exact same time in tens of thousands of manuscripts in dozens of countries.

Islam is devil worship; only the devil could believe that.

>>2275081
No Progressive Christian is an actual Christian ,people who don't follow the Bible or the Law of the Church aren't Christians, they might be so by name but thats where it ends

>>2275882
>aprocryphal

OH NO

>>2275884
Hey, at least we didn't say that Christ kill an innocent child.

>>2275888
That is supported by your bible in >>2275543

>>2275896

See >>2275759

And remember even then

>apocryphal

>>2275898
Jesus said "I HAVE COME TO FULFILL THE LAW OF THE PROHETS. NOT TO ABOLISH THEM."

>>2275912

That law being "The Messiah shall come if you follow God" which he fulfilled.

Did you not read the Acts of the Apostles and the presentation that overturned the old restrictions?

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>>2275794
>>2275815
S-stop! JESUS WAS A RIGHTEOUS MAN.

Please stop this pointless fight, Muslims and Christians. Just stop.

It's pointless. No one will gain anything. Stop.

>>2275922
perhaps the muslims will ALLAHU ACKBAR and blow both parties up

>>2275543

Bloody sheet from the wedding night, the lying groom has to pay a price.

No blood on the sheet from the wedding night, the lying bride has to pay a price.

I don't know what universe you're living in, but everyone pays the price for what they do.

When you kill women who are not virgins on their wedding night, guess what? Women are virgins on their wedding night.

>>2275705

And yet, Lot was considered a righteous man.

You would do well to consider why God considered Lot a righteous man, when he clearly did not do righteous things.

>>2275737
Yes, the enemies of the Jews rejoice when they can dash the infants of the Jews against the rocks.

>>2275732
Yes, so they don't grow up and get revenge.

You're new here, aren't you.

>>2275766
Yes, kill the people who caused the plague.

The virgins clearly did not cause the plague, as the plague was spread by sexual intercourse.

You don't think clearly, do you.

>>2275794
Yes, the Catholics are not going to enjoy the Tribulation. Nobody will.

Yet you have not managed to find the escape.

>>2275806
Really no idea how you cannot spot the muslim. Oh, wait, you people have zero spiritual discernment. My bad.

>>2275895
No, but you do say that he raised one of his childhood friends from the dead, based on a gnostic gospel.

>>2275081
Letting this religion take the entire middle east was the biggest mistake Europe ever made

>>2275081
Christianity is about the deification and enlightenment of man, it's about returning to our roots and fulfilling our purpose, about defeating death and freeing ourselves from the shackles of this world.

Islam is about worshipping a warlord god who gives virgins to his warriors.

>>2275550
>Islamic law's very foundation rests on the belief that God could change his law and had brought a better one than what he'd given the Jews.
No, Allah never ever changes his mind. The fact that YHVH/God appears to have the ability to change his mind in Jewish and Christian scripture (despite later theology trying to minimize this) is presented as evidence of their corruption. Islamic law is presented as the original law of Abraham's deity, and it didn't ever "change", it was "corrupted" by non-Muslims and "progressively revealed" to Muslims. Furthermore, Muhammed was the last person to receive revelation, and any further revelation like the Bahai's are treated as unbelief.

>>2275912

And did so on the cross at Calvary.

>>2276293
Have you seen the Middle East? The only thing worth fighting for is the oil under the sand. And that's a recent discovery.

>>2276334

Allah confirmed as a robot.

>>2276334
>No, Allah never ever changes his mind.

Oh, really?

Not even on how many wives Mohammad could have?

>>2276352
No, to the extent that Aisha could clearly see through Muhammed's bullshit, assuming that story has any grain of truth to it. It's like the doctrine of abrogation being used to cover up the fact that the Koran is supposed to be the perfect exact word of Allah but clearly has contradictions to it.

>>2276362

It's hard to simultaneously argue that the quran is changeless and eternal and was only dictated to Mohammad, but yet it has abrogated suras in it.

Very hard.

Unless, of course, you have a knife to your throat.

>>2276367
Well no, it isn't hard, because the very nature of the doctrine states that any seeming contradiction is actually just abrogation and therefore not a problem. The equivalent of saying it isn't a crime if the president does it. It word-games away any difficulty using a heavy dose of orthodox faith to smooth things over.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

>>2275081
>religions
>inherently anything

Islam is the way it is due to geopolitics in the middle east.

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>>2276352
Read the objective of Muhammad marriage:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_wives

Remember, most are them are old and not young. If Muhammad really is what you said he is, then he should only marry young women. Which is not the case.

As for Aisya, look >>2273317. Aisya's parents was actually hand Aisya for marriage.


>>2276362
>>2276367
>>2276373
>abrogation
Let me guess, you know this from the hadiths, right? Look, we believe that the Quran is preserved. The hadiths however is not. Read this:

http://submission.org/abrogation.html

>>2276293
Have you read about Islamic Golden Age? Have you read about the Dark Ages? Do you know that the terrorists is 1% of 1% of muslim population?

>>2276240
Not that anon but really? REALLY? Really? Really?

Anon, please tell me that you're born special. For me. Because I cannot comprehend that people with your special mentality exist.

It's very hard to take Islam seriously when there are so many verses that are clearly Muhammad using the authority of God to get people to do what he wants

>

O Ye who believe! Enter not the dwellings of the Prophet for a meal without waiting for the proper time, unless permission be granted you. But if ye are invited, enter, and, when your meal is ended, then disperse. Linger not for conversation. Lo! that would cause annoyance to the Prophet, and he would be shy of (asking) you (to go); but Allah is not shy of the truth. And when ye ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah, nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him. Lo! that in Allah's sight would be an enormity.

Muhammad telling his followers they shouldn't overstay their welcome when they come over for dinner. I'm sure that a VERY important message God needed the world to know and not just Muhammad telling people what to do because he's the prophet and God told him so.

What about the part where he gets caught cheating on his wife with a slave and says he won't do it again then Allah tells him "Nah man it's cool, have sex with whoever you want" and Muhammad shrugs and says "Well you heard the man, guess I can fuck anyone I want, Allah said that, not me guys, really"

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2014/02/muhammad-breaks-his-oath-to-his-wives.html

Like from an outsiders perspective the evidence seems obvious that Muhammad was a con man who made himself a prophet to get a horde of retards to let him do anything he wants, like a prototype L Ron Hubbard. I don't understand how anyone could read it and not come to that conclusion.

>>2276634
>Like from an outsiders perspective
Seems more like the perspective of a polemic.

>>2276334
I know that's the usual blurb from Islamists these days, but the fact is the earliest Muslim-Jewish debates over the subject of abrogation are specifically about the legitimacy of God sending down a new covenant different from the old, as opposed to the Christian argument that Jesus fulfills it in some haphazard way to satisfy prophesies that never really were.

Islamic Law is not at all presented as the original law of Abraham by any classical jurist, but the customs of Muhammad's generations that are theoretically most in line with fulfilling God's new (and final) covenant with mankind before the end of the world.

>>2276647
Then explain to me how you rationalize those verses without coming to the conclusion the Muhammad was just faking to get his own way

>>2275110
So is /pol/ some weird fanboy club that hates everybody who liked T1 more than T2?

>>2275465
All of which is pre-New Testament and therefore is more correctly accredited to Judaism than Christianity.

>>2276603
>the only way to read God'a final and complete message to man is reading it in classical Arabic, a version of a language notorious for ambiguity that is even more notorious for ambiguity
The actual semantic content behind the verses is either contradictory, or contradictory under another name, "abrogation." The reason the concept was invented in the first place was that there was no way to intellectually preserve the contradictory text otherwise, similar to how harmonization is used as a catch-all term for discrepancies in the NT Gospels. Hadith-rejecting Qu'aranists are admirable in that they reject centuries of non-functional traditional bullshit like the Protestant Revolution, but unfortunately they do not address fundamental problems.

>>2276667
King James Bible
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

>>2276667
>I know that's the usual blurb from Islamists these days
The Koran itself is fairly explicit about Jews etc. simply corrupting the plain and simple word of God/Allah and those people having their place on the fire for being obstinate against not a new law, but Allah/YHWH/God's original law. How are these verses squared against the idea that Allah/YHWH/God changed his mind?

>>2276693
Do you even read the website? Do you even know there's four meaning to the words 'Ayath' in Arabic? Do you even read all of it?

>Arabic
Arabic is a very precise language. They have hundreds of synonym for a horse, while English have half a dozen. The problem of translating Quran into English is that we sometimes cannot find the words that fit perfectly with some words in a verse.

And also, I nor the website never said we reject Hadiths, we just said that the Hadiths can be wrong sometimes because it was not preserved.

Do you even read the website?

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>>2276721

>>2276721
Let's start from the beginning then. Is the Koran in specifically Classical Arabic God's final, unaltered, unaltered, fully comprehensible revelation to man?

If not fully comprehensible, what external source is required to fully understand it?

>>2275099
>arab miata

even the wheels look the same

>>2276735
That paper looks like wood

>>2276748
A page from Matthew, from Papyrus 1, c. 250 AD

>>2276748
That is wood, or palm leaves, or skin, but not a paper.

>>2276752
Why is it to me?

>>2276752
They should have kept the scriptures in better condition. Imagine if we had a full set of the originals

>>2276737
Look, we do not reject the hadiths. If the hadiths goes against the Quran, then that hadiths is false, since we believe that the Quran is preserved and the hadiths is not.

>>2276757
>The Hebrew Bible (Hebrew: תנ"ך), also known as the Tanakh, consists of 39 books. "Hebrew" in "Hebrew Bible" may refer to either the Hebrew language or to the Hebrew people who historically used Hebrew as a spoken language, and have continuously used the language in prayer and study, or both. The texts were mainly written in Biblical Hebrew, with some portions (notably in Daniel and Ezra) in Biblical Aramaic. Biblical Hebrew, sometimes called Classical Hebrew, is an archaic form of the Hebrew language.

>The books of the Christian New Testament are widely agreed to have originally been written in Greek, specifically Koine Greek, even though some authors often included translations from Hebrew and Aramaic texts. Certainly the Pauline Epistles were written in Greek for Greek-speaking audiences. See Greek primacy for further details. Koine Greek was the popular form of Greek which emerged in post-classical antiquity (c.300 BC – AD 300), and marks the third period in the history of the Greek language.[1] It is also called Alexandrian, Hellenistic, Common, or New Testament Greek.

>>2276764
Not a Christian, a Muslim, but seriously? That is quite decent form.

>>2276773
My post is nothing about that?

>>2276768
What specifically "goes against the Quran"? Is it things that go against some orthodox interpretation (something that requires abrogation according to said tradition) or something aside from that?

>>2276779
>>2276721

>>2275081
Guy clubs for the inadequate, insecure, incompetent and often impotent. They certainly came up with the most repulsive of gods any sicko could imagine.

>>2276773
>>2276779
No, I mean why do you reply to my >>2276721?

>>2275081
This is what happens when you have a literal fucking warlord write a book on how to guide your life

>>2276764
That isn't really fair. The actual conditions required to preserve a text into circulation are extremely different from those required to preserve a text for future generations. Someone in the past burying a text into a tomb is much better than then putting them into an active library in terms of preservation.

>>2276790
>Koine Greek displayed a wide spectrum of different styles, ranging from more conservative literary forms to the spoken vernaculars of the time.[5] As the dominant language of the Byzantine Empire, it developed further into Medieval Greek, which in turn evolved into Modern Greek.[6] Koine Greek remained the court language of the Byzantine Empire until its dissolution in 1453, while Medieval and eventually Modern Greek were the everyday language.

it does not discern between politcal and religious views which makes it fundamentally hostile to secular and non-secular systems of life which do not conform such as deviant muslims.

>>2276796
I was talking about the Quran?

>>2276803
And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2). S. 5:46 Al-Hilali & Khan; cf. S. 57:27

He [Jesus] said, "Lo, I am God's servant; God has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet." S. 19:30 Arberry

It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad SAW) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel). S. 3:3 Al-Hilali & Khan

>>2275114
Its 1300 years old you dumbass

>>2276673
It has to do with establishing the boundaries of Muhammad's place in society concerning friends, marriage alliances, relationship to criticizing nonebelievers, and so on.

>>2276708
These verses are directed against Jews who don't follow their original law, and say nothing about actually corrupting the old scripture itself (which Muhammad would use in settling disputes among Jews). The concept of abrogation, before it was ever used to justify certain dogma based off Quranic timeline, was developed to justify the Quran's existence and Muhammad's mission.

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>>2276793
>Regarding Muhammad is a warlord

Here, too long to type, but please read it on your time. Thank you.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/no_murder.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/no_violence.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/islam_and_terrorism.htm

https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/11/08/debunking-the-myth-that-the-quran-endorses-violence-2/amp/

The Quran is a book of telegram. It's given according to the problem of people at that time.

During the time of war, if someone stab your back(betrays), then what will you do to that traitor? Invite them for a tea? Play basketball? No, execute the traitor, for his action cause the lives of many.

Most of them are taken out of context.

>>2275081
Christians are taught a doctrine that can be summerized as faithfulness to God, Good will to those in need and self defence or war if absolutely necessary.

Islam was created by a pedophile warlord who forced villages to convert and follow his example at the threat of being burned to the ground.

It's really not that hard to connect the dots.

>>2276856
>During the time of war, if someone stab your back(betrays), then what will you do to that traitor
Depends on whether I assume the people after me will emulate me as a warlord or as a religious leader. If my actions are to be a specific reaction to a specific circumstance within a specific social context, that is very different from acting within another context.

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>>2276809
Oh, so you mean that the preservation of the OT(Torah) and the NT(Injil)? Look, we believe that Moses and Jesus was given a book from God.

Muhammad defends Mother Mary against false accusations, such as she was accused by the Jews that she was raped by a Roman soldier.

Why would an Arab honor a Jewish woman instead of his mother?

The Quran says that all prophet are sinless. Well, if you look from third parties, an anon in this thread goes wild by quoting verses in the Bible, of how Jesus killing children and Lot gave his daughters to his people.

We do not believe that. The Quran honor the Prophet.

>>2276851
>These verses are directed against Jews who don't follow their original law,
Okay, then show a Koran if verse that explicitly draws the distinctions between Jews contemporary to Muhammed and "actual" Jews.

>>2276867
Look, read the links. Decide for yourself.

>>2276891
Without Solomon's sin, Solomon's repentance makes zero sense. Without the very clearly explained worldly hubris, why bother with Eecclesiastes? Might as well accept the perfect Islamic version of "Suliman" without mentioning all his failings.

>>2276891
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed.

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Say, [O Muhammad], "The Pure Spirit has brought it down from your Lord in truth to make firm those who believe and as guidance and good tidings to the Muslims."

New International Version
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

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>>2276903
Not that anon, but leave out Muhammad, Moses, who the Jews respect, himself said:

Deuteronomy 31:29
For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall on you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and arouse his anger by what your hands have made."

>>2276229
Why was he considered righteous?

>>2276904
I have. Anyone dedicated to Islam will work to support Islam, any people of the book will support wherever their allegrice, and any secularist will work against the theocratic party.

>>2276921
We believe that the prophet are all sinless. But they pray for God and ask for His forgiveness. Why do they do all that? Why do they pray more than anyone at their times pray? Because they're pious person.

>>2276925
You personally, Smug Anime Poster, are likely not a terrible person. But you not being terrible does not excuse Muhammed from being terrible.

Someone saying X will happen does not justify Y and Z.

>>2276934
Yup, as expected. You only want to believe what you want to believe. You don't want to hear what other said. Coward. Guess I too then will like to believe, according to your Bible, that God come down meet Mary and beget Jesus.

But hey, what you do to my religion I can also to yours.

>>2276950
Sanks yuu. Look, read the link in >>2276856 and >>2276603. Decide for yourself. Read it on your own time.

>>2276957
>>2276934
I'm not looking for a fight, I'm just asked you to read the link provided on your spare times. Hear from both sides.

>>2276957
I'm a fedora, not a Christian. Feel free to say whatever you would like about the Bible, no threat changes what I believe because you have zero evidence to present other than threats.

If you would actually like to debate, you can offer evidence that goes against the historical record, but everyone knows you cannot.

>>2276924
What, are you saying that the Holy Spirit exist?

>>2276903
What are you talking about? That has nothing to do with the discussion. The point is, the Quran speaks of Jews following corrupt leadership, not of a corrupted covenant. The Hadith speaks of Muhammad using the Torah to judge between Jews in Jewish cases. The earliest debates between Jews and Muslims in Umayyad/early-Abbasid Kufa involve Muslim scholars promoting the principle of abrogation to explain why the Quran was necessary in the first place.

>>2276973
*wait

>>2276970
Yup, knew it. I pray that you changed your ways if thinking and read the link provided.

>>2276970
I'll make an atheist thread in the future. Please do join.

>>2276987
Oh, and used only scientific facts as arguments. Please do read it.

>>2276973
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." - In 1 John, chapter 4:8
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.." - In 1 John, chapter 4:16
Deus caritas est - Latin for "God is Love", Pope Benedict XVI's first encyclical
"God Is Love" (song) - a song by Marvin Gaye
God Is Love - a work of art by Leonid Denysenko
God Is Love (album) - an album by Dave Fitzgerald

>>2276982
*of

>>2276982
Sorry, the arguments didn't change my mind, hopefully you will be rewarded with more Houri.
>>2276975
Be specific as to which Jew-exclusive laws are present? I'm

>>2275081
Islam is what happens when you get a religion that's too specific. In the 9th century this shit was revolutionary, but due to the lack of wiggle room in every aspect of Muslim life it hasn't adapted to changing circumstances and now it's archaic even when compared to older religions. It aged like milk.

>>2276998
I still don't understand you, I'm not saying anything about "Jew-exclusive laws" but the fact that Islamic Law is not and was never seen as a continuation of some lost Abrahamic law corrupted by Christians and Jews over time and revived by Muhammad. It was very clearly envisioned by early Muslims as an entirely new (and final) covenant based on their needs, and historical criticism of Christians and Jews has almost always revolved around their texts being made obsolete by the Quran, and that they are not properly following them to begin with and instead beholden to priestly interests.

>>2276924
Here, just put the verse you want explanation in:

http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=2&verse=87

>>2277016
>seen as a continuation of some lost Abrahamic law corrupted by Christians and Jews over time and revived by Muhammad.
Which is exactly what I said. No aspect of Islamic law is considered a continuation of Christianity or Judaism. The idea is that Islamic Law is the true connotation of the original ideas behind the real ideas.

>>2277033
>No aspect of Islamic law is considered a continuation of Christianity or Judaism.
Correct

>The idea is that Islamic Law is the true connotation of the original ideas behind the real ideas.
No. Find me someone from at least the Abbasid period that ever said this.

>>2276987
>>2276991
The perspective that does not entertain any perspective that is religiously mandated is described either as true and heretical on the part of the victims, or heresy on the part of the victims. Almost nobody in terms of the perp/victim dichotomy is nothing.

>>2277051
Be specific. What periods of time do the Abbasid law count and which do not? Also, be specific as to which organization ignore all these problems.

>>2277056
Your argument exactly sounds like those who question the validity of Wikipedia.

>>2277061
I don't have to be specific, you just have to be right once. The idea you're trying to argue is new, not something that was present during most of Islam's early history. I'm giving you several centuries of leeway to find me someone within at least 400 years of Muhammad's death that says Islamic Law is some true connotation of the original covenant that was lost to time until Islam revived it.

>>2277056
>hey, if that person is quantum mechanically inclined, then all his arguments is bullshit

>>2277092
Yes, all their arguments are bulls hit I'd they do not undead Quantum Physics yet clain to understand them for the purpose of some agenda.

>>2277092
>>2277106
>>2277056
>me: I'm religiously inclined
>me: The earth is round
>you: Yep, bullshit. Your religion makes you think like that. The earth is not round. The earth is a actually shaped like flaccid cock.

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>>2276293
>Letting

>>2275120
Wait are you talking about Islam or Christianity. Jesus was supposed to be about 30 when he started preaching, so 2017-30=1987, so that's Christianity. Mohammed started preaching in the 6th century, so that's less than 2000. Are you talking about Judaism then? Cause that's the only one of the 3.

>>2277056
What victims? The Golden age of the Jews are under the Golden Age of the Muslim, on Muslim land.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain

Yes, I'm religiously inclined.

I also believe that the earth is round. But I'm wrong, right? According to your logic.

>>2277022
Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

John 3:5 - Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 1:8 - But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

>>2277172
I'm sleepy. I be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say. Just say it, and I reply to you tomorrow, hopefully.

>>2277144
Europe could've very easily wiped Islam of the face of the Earth during the dark ages. They were too busy warring with one another to do it though, they underestimated the threat Islam posed to Christian hegemony

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>>2277409

>>2277149
Oh shit I'm retarded I was thinking about Judaism. Ignore me.

>>2275081
Human rights and progressive values are what's wrong with the world, my whig friend

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LMAO

>>2276743

It's a Fiat Barchetta u nonce.

>>2276928

Because he believed in the God of Abraham.

>>2277809
This

>>2275081
Nothing inherent about any political religion, they are just dentities. Whatever they entail at any given time depends on the past experiences and present opportunities of the people who identify with it. What happens with religion is roughly the same what would happen without it. It just gives a sense of formality and legitimation for certaint people about certain things.

If you really want to simplify it, humanity's development follows the path of economic opportunities which are mostly dictated by technological advancement.

Just look at the facts. What pops into your head when you hear "Christian conservative social values"? Probably family and its protection, pride and cherishment of nationality, economic right (preservance of an uneven status quo), authority of certain people over others etc. Well, all of these are straight up antibiblical values. The first Christians these people "revere" so much denied all of these things. It just happened so that the culture that chose Christianity as the flag of its political quasi-union found itself faced with situations in which these values proved most rentable. Thus the "religion", detaching itself from every aspect of its former self evolved into what you call Christianity today.

As for Islam...its just so obvious. If the ME experiences flourishing trade, times of peace etc. "Islam" steps on similar paths of development as the Western World. If they experience a decades long international betrayal streak and ten gazillion megatons worht of ordnance that blows it back into the Stone Age, Islam suddenly conveys itself as a Stone Age philosophy. Gee, what on Earth could possibly explain this???

>>2275106
>Jesus was
Not according to basically any historical text outside of the Bible. You'd think a guy that upturned as much shit as he was said to have done would have been documented elsewhere.

>>2275801
Anon, your belief is showing through